Wednesday, January 28, 2009

Obama Declares War

Dr. David R. ReaganBy Dr. David R. Reagan

The Obama Administration has wasted no time in declaring war on Evangelical Christians.

Within minutes after the new President took his oath of office, his staff posted his agendas concerning homosexuality and abortion on the White House website.

Sexual Perversion

With regard to sexual perversion, the President's policy goals are spelled out as follows:

1) Defeat all state and federal constitutional efforts to defend the definition of biblical marriage as being a union between one man and one woman.

2) Repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) signed by Bill Clinton. (This is currently the only line of defense keeping all 50 states from being forced to recognize so-called "same-sex marriages" from extremely liberal states like Massachusetts and Connecticut.)

3) Repeal the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

4) Pass "hate crimes" legislation granting homosexuals and cross dressers special rights denied to other Americans. (This legislation, depending on how it is drafted, could even attempt to muzzle any criticism of homosexuality as being unbiblical and unnatural perversion.)

5) Pass the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) which would force business owners (religious and otherwise) to abandon traditional values relative to sexual morality under penalty of law.

6) Create intentionally motherless and fatherless homes by expanding "gay adoption." To see it for yourself, go to
www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/civil_rights/ and scroll down the page to "Support for the LGBT Community." (LGBT is an acronym for "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgendered.")

Abortion

With regard to abortion, The President's agenda is:

1) Opposition to any constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court's abortion decision in Roe v Wade.

2) Support of the Prevention First Act which would provide access to contraception and "preventive services to help reduce unintended pregnancies" (a euphemism for abortion).

You will find these proposals on the White House website at
www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/women.

Although it is not mentioned on the website, the President has made it clear that he will support the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA). In fact, he promised Planned Parenthood that signing the FOCA would be "the first thing I'd do as President." FOCA is by far the most radical piece of abortion legislation ever introduced into the Congress.

According to pro-choice advocates:

  • FOCA would overturn the ban on the barbaric procedure called "partial-birth abortion."

  • FOCA would invalidate scores of pro-life laws passed by dozens of states.

  • FOCA would eliminate existing laws against taxpayer-funded abortions.

Consequences to the Nation

This outrageous attack on biblical morals should come as no surprise to anyone. The American voters were warned time and time again during the presidential campaign that Obama would push the most radical homosexual and abortion agenda in American history. But millions voted for charisma and eloquence rather than paying attention to the issues.

I cannot overemphasize how critical a situation we are facing in this country. We are in the midst of a great financial crisis and we have enemies worldwide who desire to destroy us. I want to see President Obama succeed in solving our financial crisis and defending this nation against Islamic terrorism. But he has literally no hope of succeeding as long as he thumbs his nose at God and God's Word.

In addition to pushing homosexuality, same-sex marriage, and abortion, he has also made it clear that he will demand a division of the land of Israel as part of a "two-state solution." These policies are national suicide.

God cannot be mock, nor can He be deceived (Galatians 6:7). He will not sit idly by and allow our nation to turn its back on Him and do what we please. We have been blessed more mightily than any other nation in history, and to those to whom much is given, much is expected (Luke 12:47-48).

Call to Prayer

We need to pray as we have never prayed before for our President. We need to pray for his heart to be softened and his ideas to be conformed to God's Word (Proverbs 21:1). And we need to pray that all his efforts to implement policies contrary to God's Word will be confused, frustrated, and defeated.

83 comments:

Pappy Penguin said...

We will pray for our President and that America will bless God.

Anonymous said...

I always felt the anti-christ would have friend in the White House in the end times. Well what do you know...he's there! Obama and the devil's spawn will get along just great.

hart_thizzle10_9 said...

i'm fed up. We're not to dwell on the rapture and be patient... HURRY UP JESUS AND COME BACK! One tyrant is taken down only to be replaced by another. Women are raped and people losing their homes. I see more people falling away than coming to christ. I WANNA GO HOME! HOW MUCH LONGER. Sometimes it gets so discouraging it seems more like the blessed hoax than the blessed hope.

Billy said...

My first response was extreme anger but then I looked up the following:

"Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

So, I will release my anger and my hate and leave the avenging wrath to God where it belongs.

Let's have faith that we Christians are not destined for the wrath of God. Perhaps we may suffer from the wrath of God haters. Let's take comfort and draw strength from the fact that Jesus will be with us throughout this all and soon He will come to take us to be with Him.

A Gracious Home said...

I agree with you. My husband and I never miss your TV program. I will be in prayer concerning this problem. Doylene

Billy said...

Remember everyone "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Have faith and stand firm! Jesus said He is coming back and He will. God does NOT lie!

The Rapture is NOT a hoax! Keep praying and keep the faith! Believe!

hart_thizzle10_9 said...

i dont mean to be irreverent but the rising unstoppable tide of evil gets so discouraging. Do you ever just want jesus to come and end it all? Sometimes i want to get off this God forsakING rock and go home it seems like he'll never come back. This sort of stuff just makes me more anxious to leave. Know what i mean? I know it aint no hoax but sometimes it gets discouraging. MARANATHA

Billy said...

I know what you mean but let's focus on the hope and encouragment of our Lord's return as the Bible tells us instead of our frustrations. I know it's hard but if we Christians are here for each other we will stand firm. So, don't give up hope, don't be discouraged, the Lord IS returning in the time set by God. Obviously the time of the Gentiles isn't over yet so hang in there. God bless!

hart_thizzle10_9 said...

you're right, and i say if obama wants a war let's givem one. On our knees, in the churches, on the streets. Within 2yrs lets rally the people of God and kick these neo-pagan earth-worshipping liberals outta the senate, congress and house. He wants a war lets givem one

JDB13572468 said...

if the house of God would give up their taxless status and start shouting the word of God from their pulpits"like the first chapter of romans",the world would pay attention.judgement starts at the house of God not the white house.the question I ask of the acclaimed christian leaders WHO do you serve? God or mammon

davidson county said...

I attend a small church. Years ago the pastor at that time preached on Romans 1. The organist was a confirmed homosexual. After that sermon, he resigned the following week. I have gone back to listen to the tape of that sermon and it is very powerful. Romans 1 is definitely alive and able to reach hearts. Preaching the Word of God whether from a pulpit or online or underground ignites God's power, the same power that divided the Red Sea.

hart_thizzle10_9 said...

if they make it illegal to preach or teach outta romans one then you should do a 10 part series outta that chapter.

Billy said...

I can't believe I missed the last line the first time around "And we need to pray that all his efforts to implement policies contrary to God's Word will be confused, frustrated, and defeated." Now that is something I can pray with passion for.

son of thunder said...

I'm going to be honest: I don't pray for the USA anymore. I pray for her people, her leaders, her military, and her churches, that they return to their God and His Messiah. I pray that the Ruach HaKodesh move hearts and minds to their Lord.

But, we have moved away from the Lord and he has pulled his right hand of protection from our land. We went our way and not His.

But just like Jeremiah, I feel I was commanded to not pray for the nation. Just like Lot, I am completely disgusted and can't wait for deliverance from this place.

Sound An Alarm said...

As a nation that is strikingly similar to the prophecies of "Mystery Babylon", I believe the appropriate word to the body of Christ at this time would be,"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Revelation 18:4)

Come out of this world system. Obey the Word of the Lord when He says, Watch and pray that you be counted worthy to escape all of these things that are coming upon the earth and to stand before the Son of Man.

David

Anonymous said...

YAHWEH said concerning His plan that NO MAN SHALL SET IT ASUNDER.

It is silly to attempt to change or alter His will which was decided by Him before the foundation of the earth.

God's people suffer from lack of Knowledge.

Continue to study to prove thyself worthy and get prepared for His arrival which is coming with great violence.

Blow the trumpet.
Look up for your Redemption is nigh.

Political Heretic said...

If evangelical christian leaders such as yourself spend a tenth as much time worrying the things Jesus Christ told us to worry about when he wrote:

"If you do it unto the least of these you do it unto me"

You know, when he said...

"For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirst and you gave me nothing to drink. I was naked and you did not clothe me. I was sick or in prison and you did not come to visit me."

Maybe "evangelical Christians" would have such an embarrassing, disgusting hypocritical name.

You hypocrites are no different than the Pharisees Jesus chastised. Whitewashing the outside of the tomb while the inside is filled with dead men's bones.

Do you know what the number one most discussed - most "preached" about topic is in the entire Bible, Old and New Testament? POVERTY, and how we are to treat the poor.

Know what the LEAST preached about or discussed subject is in the bible, and one that Jesus Christ did not discuss one single time? Homosexuality.

How about you try to align your priorities with that of CHRIST and be a WITNESS of HIS concerns to a hurting, needy world?

Until then, you are a joke.

Billy said...

Political Heretic, you are ignorant of the Bible. Jesus said

"But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,and the two will become one flesh."

Clearly Jesus states God made male and female to be united in marriage.

God did not created another man for Adam. He created a woman to be his partner.

So to say Jesus did not address homosexuality is not true.

I suggest we all pray for this person that their hatred by erased and their heart soften and that they will find salvation in our Lord Jesus.

Political Heretic said...

Billy, I "suggest" that you not avoid the issues.

Jesus, was quoting the law in response to pestering questions by the pharisees. Jesus giving a direct personal statement on homosexuality? Nope. Doesn't mean he didn't support what was written in the law. But it does show what his E*M*P*H*A*S*I*S was on.

As far as his teaching goes, no one - not even you - can claim that his teaching gave even a FRACTION of as much attention to who can marry as you do.

That wouldn't be a problem, EXCEPT for the fact that on the issues that Jesus Christ was extremely vocal about - repeatedly, and that the entire Bible emphasizes over and over again - YOU are virtually silent.

Maybe when you start devoting as much of your "air time" to the issues of the poor and the sick and those in prison and in need, then you will appear as less of a hypocrite to everyone else.

It's such a shame that our "religious leaders" of today are such Pharisees - worried about the speck in someone else's eye and ignoring the plank in your own.

Nathan Jones said...

I'd have to disagree with you, Political Heretic, that the church isn't concerned about the poor and needy. The Church has been the largest most effective organization in history that has addressed those concerns. But, the Church is useless unless it also addresses people's spiritual poverty as well. Addressing the physical and spiritual needs always went hand-in-hand in Jesus' ministry, and sets the example for all believers to seek the same balance in our reaching out to those who need Jesus as their Savior.

Political Heretic said...

Nathan, I would suggest that advocacy is every bit as important as direct action.

It's not merely a matter of what individual Christians, individual churches or even religious groups are doing to directly serve the needs of the "least of these."

It is also a question of how religious organizations who choose to become involved in politics choose to use their voice. When Christian religious leaders build up a political voice of activism and advocacy, and then blanket the airwaves with a blitz on two issues - abortion and gay people - I think it is more than appropriate to point out the staggering disporportionality between those selected emphasis and the exhortations of the BIBLE as to what our primary focuses ought to be.

When the political advocacy arm of the evangelical christian church starts devoting as much time to the issues Jesus Christ identified as most important - proclaiming good news to the poor, feeding and clothing the needing, taking care of the sick - then I'll be more willing to talk about other issues.

Until that time, I'll continue to point out that biblically speaking, you've got your advocacy priorities completely out of whack.

Nathan Jones said...

And yet, addressing both social issues and moral issues is what the Church is tasked to do. While we are calling on people to come to Christ and believers to live holy lives, we are also feeding the poor, sheltering the homeless, and healing the sick. In this, our "money is where our mouth is," and so have earned the right to address spiritual sickness, such as the murdering of our unborn and sexual perversion.

You are very passionate about the poor and needy, and it's wonderful God's layed that upon your heart. God has layed on other Christians' hearts different concerns to focus on, and when they're all worked on together the whole Body of Christ accomplishes what God desires.

Billy said...

Political, again you show your ignorance (aka you don't understand). The actual context was not to shoo away some Pharisees. He was CLARIFYING God's definition on marriage as opposed to man's definition. Jesus CLEARLY states God's plan for intimate human relationships was one man and one woman joined through marriage as one flesh. It is obvious and couldn't be more clear.

The Bible says "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

This clearly states homosexuality is contrary to behavior acceptable to God. It says homosexuals must give up their perverted behavior (some of you WERE homosexual, not ARE) and be washed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ.

Sorry, but you are the one twisting things since your comments demonstrate a negativity towards evangelical Christians. Unfortunately you are one of those of whom Jesus said "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

I will pray that you come to truly understand the Word of God, truly know the Lord and find peace and salvation.

MarkOh said...

Political Heretic:
I agree entirely. If evangelicals spent half as much time on other issues other than homosexuality, the world would be a whole lot better.

Billy:
I fear you make a huge jump by saying that just because Jesus mentioned "God made male and female to be united in marriage", he was speaking out against homosexuality. The laws in the Bible also speak of multiple wives and concubines. Because Jesus did not mention them, are they also forbidden?
Since there is only ONE verse mentioning lesbianism (and hundreds of the problems with heterosexuals) does that mean that God really approves of lesbianism?

Billy said...

One last thing you may not understand. When Christians give it is in this spirt:

"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' in front of others, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

See, Christians will openly promote giving to the poor as the right thing to do but we don't openly brag about it when we do.

Billy said...

At this point all I can do is suggest you read the articles written by Dr. Reagan available on this website:

http://lamblion.com/articles/articles_social8.php

http://lamblion.com/articles/articles_social18.php

Billy said...

Mark Oh, I thought I made it perfectly clear, but just for you I will say it again:

JESUS said: "But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,and the two will become one flesh."


Jesus CLEARLY states God's plan for intimate human relationships was one man and one woman joined through marriage as one flesh.

That says what it means and means what it says: one man, one woman. Not two men, not two women, not one man and ten women or vice versa.

What more can one say?

hart_thizzle10_9 said...

i happen to know that lamb and lion ministries DOES work with ministries that feed the hungry. One of them being hands of Luke ministries. Yes there are so called ministries whose sole purpose is to criticize but lamb and lion ministries is NOT one of them.

Political Heretic said...

"And yet, addressing both social issues and moral issues is what the Church is tasked to do."

No its not. At least not by Jesus Christ.

Jesus was pretty clear on what our "task" was. In fact he made some very direct statements which leave little room for misunderstanding.

Judge not, lest ye be judged - pretty much makes it clear that God is judge, not human beings, and that we are most certainly not in a position to address "moral issues" by pointing fingers at others.

When a disciple pointed a finger at another and said "Lord what about him!" Jesus said, "what is that to you? YOU follow me."

When Jesus was asked about the greatest commandment, he said it was love god with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. Throughout the gospels he goes on to clearly define what love is. He said that when you "do unto the least of these" it is though you do it unto me.

He describes how people will be judged for heaven or hell, and the criteria is not whether or not the addressed "moral issues" or whether they took a political stand - it was whether they fed the hungry, tended the sick, clothed the naked. He even describes a group of devote, "pious" religious people who were sure they would be going to heaven who were cast out. Those were the pharisees who were so wrapped up in their religiosity, legalism, and moralistic judgementalism and finger pointing that they completely ignored the very heart of what God and Christ calls for us - a heart of love, compassion and non-judgementalism.

Jesus entire sermon on the mount? Devoted almost exclusively to the exhortation of relational principles of how to live in joy and harmony with each other - never once a mention of a "duty" to appoint ourselves as "judge" of societies "moral issues."

The beatitudes? No mention there. However he does call blessed, the humble, and the peacemakers. He also calls blessed those who hunger and thirst after righteousness - and in harmony with the scripture that states "work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling" I welcome everyone to seek out righteousness and purity in their own lives. Their own lives. The moment you begin assuming that you have the place or authority over others to judge them - that pursuit of righteousness may be hindered.

The fundamental rift between Jesus' words and the actions of many vocal religious leaders on the public stage today is that Jesus preached of an inward faith and a relational ethic and did not preach that we were to appoint ourselves as judge over others.

Political Heretic said...

"See, Christians will openly promote giving to the poor as the right thing to do but we don't openly brag about it when we do."

No one has asked anyone to "brag" about giving. No one is suggesting that you say "I gave xxx" to the poor today. However, it seems fairly contradictory that you devote such overwhelming amount of time to a very narrow selection of issues, only marginally mentioned in scripture, while devoting almost NO time - no time in preaching, no time in exhortation, no time in advocacy, no time in commentary, no focus of any kind - on the issues that Bible overwhelmingly emphasizes and talks about over and over and over again.

Jesus Christ himself self-defined his ENTIRE PURPOSE in Luke: "'The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are downtrodden, to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.'"

Now, do you think Jesus was just too stupid or absent minded to clarify what his full mission and purpose on earth was, so that people such as your self should MODIFY his mission and reinterpret it to include "other things?"

If we are to be Christlike, wouldn't you think a good place to start would to be look at how Jesus Christ himself DEFINED HIS OWN PURPOSE and the emulate that?

Personally, I think Jesus was not stupid or inept. Thus I believe he was fully capable of saying what he meant. He could have said, "The spirit of the lord is upon me, and he has anointed me to point out the moral failings of others, to become politically active and make sure that our leaders don't let the wrong people marry, to teach human beings to set THEMSELVES up as judges."

I think he was smart enough to say that, if that's what he meant.

But he didn't.

So for me...I'm sticking with Jesus Christ over you.

MarkOh said...

Political Heretic:
Again, I say "well said". Thank you for putting it so eloquently.

Billy:
"Not two men, not two women, not one man and ten women or vice versa."
Then how do you explain Deuteronomy 21:15 and 2 Samuel: 12:11 which give Biblical approval of multiple marriages? The patriarch of the OT even had concubines, yet you say Jesus was only for a marriage between one man and one woman? Sounds like Jesus changed his mind. Or maybe he didn't speak on EVERY TYPE of relationship.

As Political Heretic has said, most evangelicals spent FAR too much time on beating the same sex issue to the detriment of many more important causes. But then, the same sex issue generates lots of money for the 700 Club and mega churches and starving children just doesn't have the same punch any more.

Billy said...

My final comment on this is there are two ways people are going to deal with the Word of God.

True believers will accept the Word of God as written and conform our beliefs to the Word, thereby acknowledging that God created us in His image.

All others, who either don't understand it or reject it will always attempt to make the Word conform to their beliefs (aka "political" or "heretic" agenda), thereby creating God in their own image.

Andrew said...

Political, you bring a voice of reason to this issue. It's pretty clear that Billy hasn't really reflected on the things he is writing, simply re-hashing the same, tired, arguments that are more and more becoming irrelevant. Thank you for bringing a light of fresh thinking to this very difficult issue.

Political Heretic said...

"My final comment on this is there are two ways people are going to deal with the Word of God.

True believers will accept the Word of God as written and conform our beliefs to the Word, thereby acknowledging that God created us in His image."

You don't accept the word of God as written. You pick and choose what you want to emphasize and how you want to interpret it just as much as anyone you would accuse of doing the same.

The evidence of this is in the scriptures that you MUST ignore to make your points, as well as the scriptures you have refused to acknowledge because they contradict your agenda.

I'm happy to accept the Word of God as written! When you start talking about the year of Jubilee and how we should follow the biblical COMMAND of that in our society, then I'll be happy to listen to you lament the evils of people who love each other who have the wrong chromosomes. But until then - as long as you yourself continue to pick and choose, I'll wait.

Because you've made a judgment - an interpretation - that acting on the scant biblical mention of male homosexuality as sin is more important than focusing on the overwhelming amount of scripture that demands that our focus be on economic justice. When did you get to decide that the command for a year of jubilee was "less" important or less serious. At least that command is actually telling us to do something. The statement that homosexuality is a sin doesn't command us to do anything except, to not personally practice homosexuality. That's it.

And yet in the bible there ARE all these exhortations for things that we are to DO within our community and toward each other...

You, by your chosen emphasis, have decided on your own, apart from justification in scripture, to emphasize on and ignore the other.

So.. biblical literalists... The Year of Jubilee... I'd like to see the next blog post be on how to advocate for that biblical imperative. :)

Billy said...

Okay, I guess that wasn't my last post. There is one last thing I would love for you to answer because it will help me understand where you are coming from.

Do you believe the following?:

1. YES COMPLETELY, YES WITH EXCEPTION (please explain) OR NO.
2. YES COMPLETELY, YES WITH EXCEPTION (please explain) OR NO.

1. Jesus Christ was virgin-born, sinless, died on the cross for sins, was raised from the dead on the third day, and is coming again.

2. Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

The reason I want your honest response is because if you believe all of this (YES COMPLETELY), including that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation, then I would ask Nathan to comment on the following question:

How can people believe 1 and 2 completely yet have such different posts? I have some ideas but would like to hear your comments, Nathan, if you have the time to reply.

Thank you.

son of thunder said...

Mr. Heretic, The only task that Jesus set before His church is this: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation." Which He follows up with baptizing, casting out demons, and healing. I take healing to mean 1)spiritually, 2)physically, and 3)financially.

Is the job of the church to just hand people money? No, because guess what, I have seen people take advantage of that attitude. I know of people who have taken church money and bought booze and smokes.

We are to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves, not stupid and blind.

And study your history. The Christian church started what we call hospitals. We started the Salvation Army and the Red Cross. We opened homeless shelters. We send food overseas.

It's not our fault if we send food to a third-world country and some Muslim warlord dictator hordes it for himself. We drill wells in deserts, and again some Muslim dictator fills in the wells. Not our fault.

People are hungry because of false religion and greed.

What about in the USA? People would have more money for food and housing if our taxes weren't so high. If our unsaved congress had any sense they would lower our taxes so people could have money and businesses could stay open and create jobs.

We could have more money to help the poor from being poor. But, this is all spiritual. All of it.

Please, do not blame Christians for the things evil people do. Don't blame God, because people choose to go their own way.

Think about how great this world would be if we could follow the Ten Commandments. But we can't because we are human, and as such, we are sinful.

Feed the hungry with both spiritual food, because man does not live by bread alone, but by every word from God's mouth, and physical food. But until man changes his spiritual attitude....

Nathan Jones said...

To argue social justice is all that Jesus preaches is to only argue one side of the coin. Did not Jesus heal the paralytic in Mark 2 so he could walk, and then heal his spiritual sickness by forgiving his sins?

When Jesus came to heal the sick, it wasn't just their physical needs he was talking about - it was their spiritual needs. That's why he avoided the crowd the next day after feeding the 5000, because they only wanted their physical needs fulfilled. Jesus came to set up His spiritual Kingdom, and entrance into it requires spiritual healing by salvation, which regenerates the spiritually sick soul.

Does the Church today spend a lot of time on talking about the issues of homosexuality and abortion? Yes, because when it comes to meeting the needs of the poor, sick and homeless - we're already doing that with countless actions. Political, your accusation that the Church is not dealing with these issues cannot hold up against the overwhelming record of deeds that the Church does daily in helping people.

But, let's examine the physical side of homosexuality. Abortion covers itself because it's murder, and the Bible is filled with what God thinks about murder (see 6th Commandment).

Accordig to statistics, the average lifespan of a homosexual is 42. Stats range from 60-80% how many practicing have AIDs, and well over 90% have some form of verneral disease. How do we treat there sick bodies?

Or emotionally, most homosexuals come from broken homes, lead broken lives, and have terrible self esteems. They seek a fulfilling relationship, but never find it in multiple partners, or in a lifestyle God knows will never fulfill their longing because it's not natural to His created order. So many of them are lonely. How do we address their emotional needs?

You see, talk of homosexuality by the Church isn't judgment, but love. For, we have the only cure to their physical and emotional needs - a spiritual cure - salvation in Jesus Christ.

Political Heretic said...

"Mr. Heretic, The only task that Jesus set before His church is this: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.""

'Gospel' translates as 'good news.' What is this good news? Jesus states it explicitly, without confusion and ambiguity:

"‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberation to the oppressed, and recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are downtrodden, to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.' And He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed upon Him. And He began to say to them, ‘Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.'"" - Luke 4:17-21.

Jesus Christ's definition of the Gospel and your definition of the gospel seem to conflict.

hart_thizzle10_9 said...

and dont forget, as goes the family goes the nation, with obamas agend the family will be broken and and eventually the nation. Its outta love for the nation we speak out against homosexuality. We dont want gods judgement on the nation

Political Heretic said...

"Is the job of the church to just hand people money? No, because guess what, I have seen people take advantage of that attitude. I know of people who have taken church money and bought booze and smokes."

No one has suggested that you "hand people money." Someone has suggested that you spend at least a tenth of the amount of time you spent talking about other peoples sex acts talking about how we can be better stewards of Christ's definition of the "good news" by thinking about how to better clothes the naked, feed the hungry, and tend to the sick.

Incidentally, you may not want to "hand people money" because you deem them "undeserving poor" vs. "deserving poor" - but my bible, well read, makes no such distinction. And in fact, does indeed suggest, in both the Old Testament and New Testament, that we should do EXACTLY that.

Go sell all that you have and HAND IT TO THE POOR... would be one Biblical exhortation that comes to mind. Talk about an example of where I imagine none of us are living up to a "literal" interpretation of the biblical text yet.

So you can continue to have your conservative philosophy that the poor are undeserving and that you should be appoint judge of their worth - but understand that it has no support in scripture. None at all.

If you have done for the LEAST of these, you have done unto me.

Political Heretic said...

"When Jesus came to heal the sick, it wasn't just their physical needs he was talking about - it was their spiritual needs. That's why he avoided the crowd the next day after feeding the 5000, because they only wanted their physical needs fulfilled."

Don't look now but you are providing your own interpretation to Biblical text beyond what scripture allows. Thank you for making my point that no one simply accepts the biblical text "as written" without bringing their own interpretation into the mix.

The bible doesn't give you any indication of why Jesus withdrew after feeding the 5,000. He could have just been tired for all we know. That's your interpretation to fit your desired outcomes.

Nathan Jones said...

In Luke 4, Jesus was quoting and fulfilling (in part, still future) Isaiah 61. What's the context of Isaiah 61?

What Jesus is really talking about will surprise you, and has little to do with social gospel (at least for Gentiles).

Political Heretic said...

"But, let's examine the physical side of homosexuality."

No, let's not. Not until you spend at least as much time talking about the things that Jesus Christ made HIS ministerial priority while on earth - HE is my example, his priorities are my priorities.

And when you spend a more proportional amount of time focusing on what the BIBLE's priorities are, then I may be happy to discuss with you the "lesser" concerns of Biblical text - like homosexuality, which it barely mentions.

davidson county said...

I don't think there are sermons just addressing homosexuality and abortion today in all the churches. I know at the church I attend there is a heart for the poor and needy that is evident every week. But the main purpose that I attend is for the preaching and teaching of God's Word. We are currently studying the book of Matthew. All I know is that when Jesus speaks, He convicts my heart and that is what the Word of God is meant to do. Sin is sin and needs to be addressed by Christ. I know that Christ spoke a lot to the poor and needy, but He also spoke a lot of Hell. Why did He speak so much of Hell?

Political Heretic said...

"In Luke 4, Jesus was quoting and fulfilling (in part, still future) Isaiah 61. What's the context of Isaiah 61?

What Jesus is really talking about will surprise you, and has little to do with social gospel (at least for Gentiles)."

Jesus made it perfectly crystal clear what he was talking about through his entire life and ministry and the overwhelming themes of every "word in red"

It takes some amazing mental gymnastics to ignore this.

Billy said...

Political...you didn't answer my questions.

Do you believe the following?:

1. YES COMPLETELY, YES WITH EXCEPTION (please explain) OR NO.
2. YES COMPLETELY, YES WITH EXCEPTION (please explain) OR NO.

1. Jesus Christ was virgin-born, sinless, died on the cross for sins, was raised from the dead on the third day, and is coming again.

2. Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Political Heretic said...

"I know that Christ spoke a lot to the poor and needy, but He also spoke a lot of Hell. Why did He speak so much of Hell?"

A review of the gospels might be an interesting exercise. Where Jesus speaks of hell, or of the casting into darkness, or the the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth - what does he usually suggest brings a person there?

Squandering talents...

Not feeding the hungry, (omg a handout!?!?!) not clothing the naked (omg a handout?!?!?!), not giving something to drink to those who are thirsty (omg a handout?!?!!) not taking care of the sick and visiting those in prison?

Loving your enemies, blessing those that curse you...

The principles of the beattitudes...

Jesus never - not a single time - tells us that in order to enter paradise we much speak out against the "sins" of others or appoint ourselves as judge over whether or not their behaviors or actions are right or wrong.

He exhorts us ourselves to hunger an thirst after our own righteousness, and to keep the commandments - but in our attitude toward others, he calls for fellowship, love, compassion, and the meeting of human needs.

It's one thing to tell a hurting world about the love and mercy of God who loves them even in their pain and need. It's another thing to appoint ourselves as God's mouthpiece on morality, to appoint ourselves as spokesperson for determining who God calls his children.

I've got to get back to work now... so I guess this is all I can say for a while.

Political Heretic said...

"Political...you didn't answer my questions."

I didn't answer your questions, because I don't answer to you, and you are not my judge. I don't recognize your authority to judge the nature of my relationship to the Divine. I answer to God.

Billy said...

You just answered my question.

Political Heretic said...

"You just answered my question."

You would have said that to pretty much anything I posted. That's what happens when your mind's already made up.

Nathan Jones said...

The John 6 version of the Feeding of the 5,000 has the spiritual vs. physical explanation by the end of the chapter, so nothings being brought to the translation.

As typical in any debate, each side is a sincere brother/sister in Christ who God's layed one of his works passionately on their heart. For Political, it surely sounds like helping the needy. For other's God wants them to emphasis missions or teaching or even Bible prophecy. It takes all of us together to get the message of salvation out.

It's very important we understand that each part - each job - of the body makes up the whole (1 Cor. 12). To disparage what the other parts do or feel our part is the only one that matters disparages the work of the Holy Spirit Himself (a dangerous thing to do we're warned - Matt. 12:32).

Political Heretic said...

"The John 6 version of the Feeding of the 5,000 has the spiritual vs. physical explanation by the end of the chapter, so nothings being brought to the translation."


John 6:15 says:

"So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone."

So, yes.... to get to your interpretation.... "interpretation" is required.

Note that I'm not implying a judgment that you are doing something wrong. I'm trying to point out that human interpretation of biblical texts is unavoidable. The best method we can employ, I believe, is to try to reconcile scripture with other scripture.

In this instance, I don't find your interpretation of the motive and implications of Christ's withdraw to be particularly consistent with the rest of what we read about his life and ministry.

sigh... ok now I'm late. :)

Nathan Jones said...

It can be found later in John 6, Political.

25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"

26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Many deserted Jesus after that, because they weren't looking for a hand-out and not spiritual fulfillment. The healing and food opens the door of opportunity to share about Jesus' salvation. Jesus' example teaches us that the physical and spiritual must go hand-in-hand.

Thank you, Political for pointing out we've all been guilty at one time for doing just one without the other. Hope you're not too late! :)

Billy said...

I asked from interest, not in authoritative judgement.

How about this.

Do you believe, word for word, everything written in John 3:16?

You accused me of "picking and choosing" verses from the Bible. Can I assume, since you must not "pick and choose", that you believe this passage word for word as written???

Billy said...

Also, how about John 3:18?

Hoping for a simple "yes" or "no".

Political Heretic said...

Now I'm at work, but I really can't do too much more of this without feeling I'm being irrepsonsible to my employer. But real quick, to Nathan:

"It can be found later in John 6, Political."

Ah yes - I stand corrected. It's important not to fall into a trap of doing anything to prove yourself right. So, thanks for pointing that out. I had forgotten this context, and you rightly point it out.

This is good though, because its was never my intention in all of this to imply that there is not spiritual component to a relationship with Christ - no spiritual salvation, rescue from sin.

I would like to point out though, as a partner to your example of the 5,000 Jesus' statements to the Rich Young ruler. Forgive a paraphrase...

"Lord what must I do to be saved?"
"Keep the commandments"
"Lord, I have done this all my life"
"One thing you lack, go sell all you have have give to the poor."

I don't offer this as a *rejection* of what you pointed out, that Jesus fled the crowds because he could tell that they were only interested in handouts. I simply offer it as an important complimentary truth. That text is just as sacred as the text you commented on.

My point has always been about what I believe, according to my understanding of scripture, to be the misplaced priorities of some in the church.

When I look for christian resources in the media, or on the internet, or when I read evangelical christian publications, or listen to prominent evangelical christian ministers, there are two things that deeply disturb me and seem to be contrary to my understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The first is the equation of conservative American politics exclusively with Christianity. This judgment, I believe, runs deeply contrary to the witness of Jesus, just as an equation of liberal American politics exclusively with Christianity would do the same.

The second is the overwhelming emphasis in literature, in advocacy, and in commentary of evangelical religious leaders on matters that the scripture barely discusses.

How hold on before you jump on me! That wouldn't bother me so much, if I felt the evangelical christian community were doing a sufficient job of speaking, acting and living out a life in harmony on the issues that the Bible makes its overwhelming focus. Then maybe there would be time to focus on the smaller issues that the bible barely mentions.

But I don't believe that is the case. The state of the evangelical Christian community, both in reality (in my opinion) and it is perception to the rest of the world is that its priorities are tragically out of synch with the priorities of Jesus Christ and of Scripture.

And until those priorities are adjusted, I'm not interested in talking about what people do in their bedrooms.

Hope that makes sense.

Nathan Jones said...

It makes perfect sense, Political. Thanks for clarifying your position for our readers.

Billy said...

And Political remains a person unable to confirm he believes, word for word, John 3:16-18. Why?

son of thunder said...

Billy, drop it.

Let the Ruach HaKodesh do his job.

There are a lot of things that the Church has dropped the ball on. Poverty is one of them. I read one time that if every professing Christian in the US gave 10% of their income, we could eliminate poverty in less than one year. Do you give 10%? Every week? Once a month? To be honest, I don't. Is that sin? Maybe, I don't know.

Is your church more interested in a gymnasium and a praise band than helping the poor and spreading the Gospel? How many homeless could be helped for the price of a "worship center" or a really boss sound system?

How about AIDS? We haven't any kind of heart for AIDS victims until very recently, and it died somewhat quickly. Who did Jesus help? Wouldn't you say that todays AIDS patients are yesterdays lepers?

I think Political's views are somewhat blinded, but so are ours as a whole. Our first goal is to spread the gospel to everyone, through whatever methods necessary. I don't think I'm remiss in quoting what Sam Kinison said about this sort of thing. It was during the Jim Bakker amusement park deal back in the 80's. Sam said, "Yeah, I can just see God sitting there, turning the pages of the Bible saying, 'Where did I say to go and build a water-slide?'" Think about that.

And I don't think that Political needs to answer your little survey. There at the end, it sounded more like witch-hunt than anything else. Right now, I'm not worried about if he can quote John 3:16-18. The state of his soul is between he and God right now.

Let God work.

Billy said...

As for my "little survey", excuuuse me, but he comes in here bashing evangelical Christians, bashing Christianity and making accusations.

I'm just trying to discover why. Is he atheist/agnostic/secular? Is he just mad because the article attacked Obama? All of this I would understand. But if he is a true believer Christian then I wouldn't understand why he is doing this.

And I find it unusual that you consider asking someone if they believe in John 3:16-18 a "little survey" or a "witch hunt".

I'm free to post comments here. I didn't tell anyone else to "drop it" so I would appreciate the same consideration. I WASN'T ASKING YOU ANYWAY!

MarkOh said...

Nathan Jones:
Thank you for posting comments about homosexuality from, what, the 1950's? The "studies" you quote are extremely flawed and incorrect. Especially the part about the majority of homosexuals are from broken homes. TRUST me, most are form the same types of homes that you were raised in.
Billy:
"he comes in here bashing evangelical Christians, bashing Christianity and making accusations.'
He is speaking the truth. I am sorry that you see it as "bashing". And he sure isn't bashing Christianity. Just your narrow, hate filled version of it.

Nathan Jones said...

No, MarkOh, the statistics are current. You're welcome to follow up on any of the references from this compliation.

Jesus loves the gay man and the straight man equally. But, He wants them all to live holy lives (1 Pet. 1:16). We must not hold onto any sin. God has better plans for our lives, and a better love to give.

MarkOh said...

Nathan Jones:
Is that your website? Or just someone who has a real hatred for gays and are willing to spread lies and falsehoods to support their hatred.
As someone who has been in medicine for almost 20 years, let me assure you that gays and lesbians are living well into their 90's, just as straight people are doing. They are not more likely to "prey on children" (you do know, don't you, that the majority of pedophiles are straight men?). I mean, the info on average lifespan? One of the articles refers to lesbians since the AIDs epidemic. Uh, lesbians are the least likely to contract HIV so how does this alter a lifespan?
Show me one SCIENTIFIC study to prove your claims, and something within the last 5-10 years, at least.

MarkOh said...

Nathan Jones:
I have been extremely interested in the lifespan statistic you site. From my digging (as it is not clearly found), "Dr" Edward Fields is a chiropractor who has spent the last 55 years involved with various neo-Nazi organizations in the United States.

Here's his essay on interracial couples:
http://stormfront.org/truth_at_last/archives/interracial.htm

Nathan Jones said...

It's not only the statistics, MarkOh, but all the homosexuals I've been friends with and ministered to over the years. They're hurting, Man, because they've chosen not to live the life God intended them to. Like so many of us who hold onto sin, whether it be sexual or lying or coveting or whatnot - we're being shortchanged from the good and perfect will God has for our lives.

Don't you see, MarkOh, it's not about hate at all. It's about love.

MarkOh said...

Nathan Jones :
Uh, actually, no, I don't see it's all about love. You put out incorrect, vile statistics intended to mislead people regarding gays, and then, when called on it, claim "It's all about love". Perhaps the "homosexuals I've (you've) been friends with" wouldn't be hurting so much if you accept them as they were and quit telling them they are burning in hell for being as God made them.

Nathan Jones said...

God doesn't make the gay, or the liar, or the thief - it's sin, MarkOh. Sin is rebellion against God, and when we rebel against what God intends us to be, we become merely a shadow of what we could truly become.

It's never worth holding onto sin and its consequences when God has so much better for us.

How infinitely better that God teaches us in the Bible that we can become “sons of God” (John 1:12). That we who have accepted Jesus as Savior are “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God” (1 Pet. 2:9). And, that we are “children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” (Rom. 8:17). Instead of eternal death, as God’s children we receive eternal life (Matt. 25:46).

Isn't God's will for our life so much better than holding onto our rebellion?

Billy said...

Your last post was great Nathan, as it applies not only to the homosexual, but to ALL of us for we are all sinners.

What an inspiring message. No matter the sin, we all need to strive to attain what you describe in the third paragraph.

THANK YOU FOR THAT!

son of thunder said...

Billy, I only to said drop it because you were not getting an answer to what you were asking. Check that, you were getting an answer: no answer was the answer. Maybe he didn't answer your survey because he felt he was under attack. I felt like he was under attack. Maybe he thought it was childish. I don't know.

If he said "Yes" the argument would then be why don't you agree with us? If he said "No" it might have gotten ugly.

The Book says to stay away from useless debates, and this one has gotten pretty useless.

Billy, we can't argue someone to salvation. All we can do is put the truth out there and let God work. But this Political hits me as someone who wants to know Jesus, but on his own terms. Now I know, and I hope you know, that that is impossible. But there are a lot supposedly evangelical churches that teach otherwise. Maybe he's in one of those congregations. Maybe not, but like I said that's between he and God.

Let God work.

And if I upset you, then I apologize.

MarkOh said...

Nathan Jones:
I am sorry but you are quite wrong. Sexual orientation is an inborn part of a human being, as genetically/bio chemically a part of who a person is as their hair or eye color. It cannot be changed. No amount of prayer, pleading, bargaining, nor threats will ever change this fact.

So, you are left with a decision: God created me as a gay man (THAT is a fact). Did he make a mistake? Or is your interpretation of selected verses in the Bible incorrect?

davidson county said...

That is not a fact. God created them male and female. A man or a woman may have homosexual tendencies, but he or she is not created that way. That mankind has free choice, some sin with drink, some with lust, some with homosexuality, there are a variety of sins, but only one cure. God wants to be first in a person's life, to love Him with a whole heart. I just don't believe that a person is born homosexual. To say that God is not big enough to be first place in a person's life is saying that a person can't change.

son of thunder said...

MarkOh, can you prove that homosexuals are born that way? Do you have valid data to support your view? What evidence do you have?

How about alcoholism? Drug addiction? Self-mutilation? Anorexia? Are these things genetic? Do genetics cause a person to take that first drink or that first hit? Do genetics cause a teenage girl to cut herself or throw up after every meal?

You say Nathan is putting out vile statistics, but you show no statistics. Prove him wrong. Prove us all wrong. If you have imperical evidence, put it on the table.

MarkOh said...

son of thunder:
I can come back and ask you to prove that it ISN'T inborn.
But I will give you several links to review:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/
http://www.geocities.com/southbeach/boardwalk/7151/biobasis.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-7690015.html

There are many problems with doing research on sexual orientation. First, you need to define what you are measuring. What makes a person gay? Is it the actual behavior? Does that mean men in prison who have sex with other men are gay? Of are they just "heterosexuals with issues"? Or is it the thoughts a person has regarding sex? If a person is celibate, are they a non-sexual?
Is it an all or nothing? If someone experimented as a pre-teen but has only been with women since, is he straight?

Second, you have to design a study to test your theory. If the qualities that you are evaluating are socially made undesirable, are you going to get honest answers from people? A study that many people point to showing only 2% of people are gay required the participants to give full names, work places, and have at least 2 non-family witnesses to verify their answers. The fact that the study found 2% of people who were willing to risk giving out this much information, I find extraordinary.

Thirdly, with many aspects of the person, especially when referring to genetic or inborn traits is that you can get a variety of penetrance of the trait. An example is of diabetes. It does run in families but environment may amplify or mute the disease. Some people who exercise all the time and watch their diet might have severe symptoms whereas others who are more sedentary may show fewer symptoms.

Finally, in response to Nathan Jones - there is an old joke of two psychiatrists at a work meeting. The one says "You know, all my gay patients are crazy". To which the other says "You know, all my straight ones are too".

son of thunder said...

So, by your own admission, it is genetically unprovable. Is that what you're saying? Illness is easily tested for because it has certain traits. But homosexuality is different because there are no "standard" traits? Is that right?

If so, then it comes down to a matter of social observations. All we can go on are observations and my observation is this: people who live outside of God's will are usually angry, depressed, confrontational, etc.

Using your argument, those homosexuals who openly have sex at so-called "Gay Pride" events are acting normally? Those people who abort babies and drop them in a gabage disposal and grind them up are acting normally? And you would be right.

Without God people are lower than animals. We are born sinful. From our first breath, we inherit sin. We murder, maim, destroy, hate. That's what we do. That's what I did. I have come out of some of the darkest pits you can imagine. Drugs, alcohol, porn. MarkOh, I am a sinner. But I choose to leave those things behind. I choose to live a life for the one who saved me from myself. And I don't blame genetics or society; I blame me. I made those choices, not some unprovable genome. I DID IT. Me. But, thanks be to God and his Messiah, Jesus.

Do I still stumble and sin? Do I still amke poor choices? Yes, all the time. But I get up. Could I stay down? Yes, and Satan would win.

It's been said that every man who walks into a brothel is looking for God. The same can be said for people who drink too much, or take drugs (legal and illegal), or sleep around, or join street gangs. Whatever.

People want acceptance, MarkOh. Jesus offers acceptance. He doesn't care what you have done or where you have been. He does not care if your a straight or "gay" fornicator, a murderer, a thief, a liar. He died on that cross, he bore our sins, he paid the price that we can't pay.

Believe what you want, it's God that gave you that freedom, MarkOh.

MarkOh said...

son of thunder:
Tell me, what is YOUR definition of homosexuality? What makes someone gay?

All I can say is open your hearts. It does not come down to "social observations". SOME illnesses can be easily tested, some cannot be. As for homosexuality, it is NOT an illness so your comparison is irrelevant.

You then jump to public displays of sex and abortion??? Excuse me, but that has NOTHING to do with this argument. I could say that for CENTURIES "Christians", "true believers", have butchered, mutilated, tortured, and killed. It doesn't mean all Christians do such things.

I am glad that you got over your issues and now feel better about yourself. Again, this is irrelevant to this discussion. There are thousands and thousands of gays and lesbians, many faithful church goers out there that are extremely happy and not involved in self destructive lifestyles.

I will shout it from the mountain tops, God made me a gay male. Do deny that part of me means that I deny God. As much as if God had given me the talent to create music or paint wonderful scenes.

MarkOh said...

son of thunder:
And you can believe what you want to as well. However, when you begin to force through laws that restrict what other people can do (such as marrying the person they love), then you are doing harm.

And "it's God that gave you that freedom". May He judge you less harshly than you judge others.

son of thunder said...

MarkOh

http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/gay-and-lesbian-health

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/Ch12.pdf

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/gay-by-choice.html

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/facts_not_flattery_about_same_sex_attraction/?view

http://www.narth.com/docs/detect.html

Here are some links for you as well, MarkOh. They talk about the health issues faced by homosexuals, the psychological issues, and the fact that people come out of that lifestyle all the time. None of them are "Christian" web-sites. I would recommend that you spend a lot of time at narth.com.

And you know, we acknowledge the Crusades and the violence done by so-called Christians. A man who blows up an abortion clinic or shoots abortion "doctors" are not Christian in any sense of the word. Christ said to love our enemies, not hack them to little bits.

And, MarkOh, just because someone sits in church on Sunday doesn't mean they are Christian, any more than sitting in Burger King makes me a Whopper.

There are unfortunately many, many churches where a Bible is never opened. 80% of so-called Christians don't even read their Bible's and have no idea what is in them.

And I don't care if you are gay or not. I do not judge you. I haven't judged you, in fact I've enjoyed this little debate. I think you are someone I could get along with. But, irrespective of that, the Bible calls homosexuality sin, along with stealing, lying, murder, and straight fornication; all of which Christians are all guilty of. Jesus states that sin begins in the heart, and if I'm angry at someone for no reason I have murdered them. If I have looked at a bra ad and fantasized then I have commited adultery.

I'm done. I don't give up, but this battle is over. I have said what needs to be said. I will pray for you, my friend, as I pray for all my friends.

MarkOh said...

son of thunder:
I am really sorry that you won't respond to my questions. I realize it requires some thought, but I had hoped for at least something.

Glad you can use Goggle.
The NARTH site is full of incorrect information and studies that are not verified by any competent organization. Its an organization set up to deprive gays of their rights, that's all.

"the fact that people come out of that lifestyle all the time"
Actually, that is not true either. Even the study that was paid for by a Christian organization found, at best, a 15% rate of "conversion" to being straight. And that was when the eliminated people who no longer wanted to respond to the study because they felt it was biased.

As far as this being a debate, again, I am sorry that I disagree with you on this being a "debate". You ask me questions, I respond. You change topic and direction. I respond. I ask you questions, no response just more change of direction. That is not a debate.

And as for you "being done", I can understand. When you have nothing to stand on, its hard to keep defending a make believe fact.

And you have been judging me. You say that I am a sinner for being gay. Now, the typical response is that "we are all sinful" but the problem with that statement is that it really means (like something out of Animal Farm): some are more sinful than others.

"I will pray for you, my friend, as I pray for all my friends."
I do not wish for you to pray for me because the nature of those "prayers" are insincere. You do not accept nor recognize me as a person and I do not consider such people "friends".

davidson county said...

I agree that we should pray for the President. If he calls evil good and good evil, the nation could be in for trouble. Proverbs says a righteous man hates falsehood.

Political Heretic said...

Thank you all for proving my point.

son of thunder said...

MarkOh, that is why I'm done. As usual with liberals, intead of looking at data they turn to character assassination and insults. "Glad you can use Goggle." That implies that you think I'm an idiot. I not once, not one time, insulted you. I do not agree with your lifestyle choice. But I did not insult you.

Not once did I ever feel superior and I'm sorry if you think I was judging you. If I were judging you then I woould have come out and said, "Hey, MarkOh, you're going to Hell." Then I would have to say the same about my homosexual friends, and I don't want to that because I like them.

But let me just say this: You had better be right. When it comes to eternity, you had better be right because forever is a long time.

And I find it interesting that it is always Christians who interpret Scripture wrong, and never people who just pick and choose verses to prove their point, and usually use them out of context.

Case in point, I hear it said that Jesus never talked about homosexuality. He never talked about rape either, does that make rape right?

And we are all equally sinful. There are no big sins and little sins, there is no curve; there is only sin. The Bible says if you break one law you're guilty of them all.

And as to whether you're going to Hell or not is up to God, not me.

MarkOh said...

son of thunder:
How sad that you degrade to character assassination. And being called liberal is not an insult to me at all, thank you very much.

I have presented a great deal of data, none of which you seem to want (or are able) to respond to.

You have yet to answer a single question I have asked you. Instead, you resort to becoming the victim. This is typical. When a bully is finally called on their game, they resort to such language as "now, see, you are making me mad and making me hurt you". Course that only works if the other person assumes the victim role, which I can assure I do not.

"The Bible says if you break one law you're guilty of them all."
Think about that the next time you are wearing a cotton-wool bland suit, making a ham sandwich on a Sunday.

Again, I pray God will judge you less harshly then you seem to enjoy judging others.

Anonymous said...

What is wrong with you people??? I can't believe the world is still filled with such ignorance... How can you call yourself christians
?? where is your tolorence? You are no different from Muslim fanatics. You go around life judging people without recognizing your own faults.

What do you think GOD has to say about that???