Thursday, March 26, 2009

Dave Wilkersons Visions

Dr. David R. ReaganPDFBy Dr. David R. Reagan

Dave Wilkerson, the pastor of Times Square Church in New York City, has spoken out once again concerning God's impending judgment upon this country.

He has called on Americans to stock food and water in preparation for "an earth-shattering calamity" that will cause even the most godliest among us to tremble. Once again, as he has done several times before, he tells of visions he has experienced in which he has seen New York City burning, as well as other major cities across the United States.

Many have called or written to ask what I think of Wilkerson's alarming warning.

First, let me say that I have the highest respect for Dave Wilkerson. His track record over the years of service in the Lord's Kingdom has shown beyond doubt that he is a man mightily anointed by God's Spirit. The accomplishments of his amazing ministry in New York City are beyond human capability.

And although he is a Pentecostal, he has spent a good portion of his ministry speaking out against the emotional excesses and doctrinal errors of both the Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements.

I personally began supporting Dave Wilkerson's ministry in 1974 and have continued to do so to this day, for 35 years, by sending him a donation each month. It is the only ministry I have supported that long. After the 9/11 attacks, our ministry raised over $30,000 for emergency relief, and we sent all the money to Dave Wilkerson's church.

For years Wilkerson was the darling of the Pentecostal Movement because of the fame that came his way through his remarkable book, The Cross and the Switchblade — the story of how God worked through him to convert one of the violent gang leaders of New York City.

But in 1974, many Pentecostals and Charismatics washed their hands of him because he published a hard-hitting book called The Vision in which he condemned the sins of America, called the nation to repentance, and warned of God's coming judgment if we failed to repent. He was immediately condemned as a "doom and gloom" prophet. Those church leaders who were seeking pillow-prophets with only a positive message decided to pull Wilkerson's books from their church book stores. And the non-Pentecostal and non-Charismatic community wrote him off as some sort of nut case.

Since that time his distracters have harped over and over on two points: 1) His visions concerning America's destruction have not come true, and 2) There is no need for prophetic words apart from the Bible.

My first response to these criticisms is to point out that seldom ever did the prophecies of biblical prophets come true in their lifetimes. For example, many of the prophecies of Isaiah, such as those pertaining to Babylon, did not come true until 150 years after his death. Some were fulfilled 700 years later during the lifetime of Jesus. And most are still waiting for fulfillment 2,700 years later and will not be fulfilled until Jesus returns.

My second point is that the Bible teaches that God never pours out His wrath on a nation without warning, and He warns in two ways — through prophetic voices and remedial judgments.

I believe Dave Wilkerson is God's Jeremiah to the United States, and I believe we should pay close attention to his warnings. Wilkerson believes that our nation has reached the critical point where God has decided — because of our continuing stubborn rebellion — to deliver us from judgment to destruction.

The Bible says that in the end times God will give visions to many people, both male and female, young and old (Joel 2:28-29). All such visions must be tested against the Word. The visions God has given to Dave Wilkerson showing our major cities burning, with civil rioting in the streets, do not violate any biblical principle. In fact, such destruction and rioting could be the product of any of the end time scenarios I have outlined for America in my book, America the Beautiful? The United States in Bible Prophecy.

I think Wilkerson's warnings are biblically sound. I think we should heed his warnings to prepare for the worst, and I believe we should respond to his call to pray as we have never prayed before for our nation and our leaders.

We need to pray also for our churches. We are living on the threshold of the Tribulation. Jesus is at the very gates of Heaven waiting for His Father's command to return. The signs of the times are shouting from the heavens that our time is short. Yet, the average church is totally oblivious to the fact that we are living on borrowed time. Rather than preaching repentance, the preaching is focused on feel-good themes in response to the desire of people to have their ears tickled.

I am not a Pentecostal or a Charismatic, but I am a person who knows God's Prophetic Word and how God deals with nations. Dave Wilkerson's warnings are right on target, and we would be foolish to dismiss them out of hand. I praise God for Wilkerson's courage to proclaim an unpopular message. He is being crucified in the press — even by Evangelicals. That's exactly what happened to Jeremiah, except that his people tried to go one step further by attempting to kill him. True prophets are never popular.

127 comments:

Billy said...

Call me a fool. I do not give any special status to Wilkerson's "visions". I think they are so general in nature that anyone could make the same predicitons withouut havings "visions". (Riots and fires in a nation possibly on the brink of financial ruin - how hard is it to predict that?)

We already know the end times are near and God's patience with the U.S. is wearing thin. We already know judgement on this nation is coming soon.

For those with some familiarity of Bible propheyc Wilkerson's "visions" adds nothing to the subject.

I'm going to continue my focus on the rapture to come, not the destruction. That is how I choose to face the future - with hope - not doom and gloom. Jesus will save us from the wrath of God.

Billy said...

I didn't like my last line. I would rephrase it to Jesus will take us away from the wrath of God to come upon those left behind.

rwf said...

DR. REAGAN could you please check out this web site www.handofhelp.com and make a comment on what you find.
I truly believe that the end times are here and GOD gave us the president that we deserve not the one we need

Great Grany 5 said...

Dr. Reagan, I agree with you whole heartedly and as you, I have supported David Wilkerson since becoming acquainted with his ministry in 1964. He has been unflinching in serving God and the Kingdom of Heaven. His soul winning is beyond reproach and he has a heart that truly loves God.
I was blessed with his book in 1994 about the stock market and America's Last Warning, or something like that. I have given so many of the books away to friends who were heavily invested in the stock market and we took his warning seriously. In the process we were spared losing everything we had due to the .com fiasco.

The point, however, to David's last warning is Repentance of all people in this nation. Not just the unsaved but the believers who say they are Christian and yet their life is not reflecting the truth of Jesus Christ. God's word tells us that the judgment will begin in the House of God (us)because we know better than to live as the world lives. We cannot point our fingers at everyone else without having at least four fingers pointing back at us.

I take David's warning very seriously and yes, he is our present day Jeremiah and the USA is trying to kill the Prophets just as they did in the Old Testament days. But as David remarked, God gave him the warning to proclaim and he was blood and duty bound to shout it to the whole nation. Now, the responsible parties are all of us and our blood will not be on him. Rebellion is nothing new to God but he is not going to put up with it much longer.

It is far better to fall into the displeasure of men than to fall into God's Judgment.

Billy, I would suggest that you pray about your attitude in all humbleness and let the Holy Spirit be your Counselor. Rebellion isn't a virtuous blessing for anyone to hang onto.

Great Grany5

hartdawg said...

what about people who work hard, live right, fear God but have VERY little income and cant afford to stock up or anything cuz they barely get by? ARE THEY SCREWED?

Anonymous said...

Dr Reagan -

THANK GOD for your commentary, I have tried very hard to be a voice and stand by David Wilkerson's side in this on several websites, and have gotten a lot of flack for it. I stand by this great man of God and whole-heartedly agree with everything you have written. I have never met David Wilkerson, but feel I know his heart, through all the sermons freely available on his World Challenge website, I have read so many of them that I cannot help but to say that David Wilkerson loves everyone and truly has a heart after Christ. This vision from David to stock-up is a pre-caution to those left behind after the rapture (pre-trib) and to all of us (mid-trib, post-trib) personally I am a pre-trib Christian and I consider myself a watchman an the wall for Christ. So I feel his warning does not apply to those who anxiously await the return of our Lord and Savior (pre-trib), rather it is a warning to all non-Christians to repent and accept Christ's free gift of salvation or face sudden disaster.

In Christ - David in Virginia

Billy said...

Granny,

With all due respect, I am not a rebel with a bad attitude though I appreciate your concern. I happen to agree with what you say overall.

I happen to prefer Dr. Reagan's m.o. of responding to events AFTER they happen (like 9-11 and Katrina) as opposed to someone warning of his "visions". No one has been able to say why I should accept these "visions" as the gospel truth or pointed out Bible references to indicate they pass the test. Wilkerson's "visions" are extra-Biblical (I believe it was Nathan Jones who pointed this out). That's my attitude in a nutshell.

I will say, Granny, you sound like a nice Christian person whom I will be glad to meet someday when Jesus reigns.

God bless you!!!
Billy

Billy said...

Please let me make one thing clear. I am IN NO WAY trying to attack Mr. Wilkerson. I am sure he is a better Christian than I'll ever be and will be rewarded in Heaven far more than I.

hartdawg said...

i hope you are right, david from virginia. america in general deserves what it gets.

Anonymous said...

hartdawg - God loves you and provides for all those who seek his face. Christ Jesus gives makes it clear in the Bible that God will always take care of us:

(NKJV)

Mat 6:25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
Mat 6:26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
Mat 6:27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
Mat 6:28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
Mat 6:29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mat 6:30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
Mat 6:31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
Mat 6:32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
Mat 6:34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

So hartdawg... Trust in God, believe with all your heart that he is their for you, do not waiver in your faith. Also remember, if you are a true Christian (which I believe your heart is there, but still see some doubt in your words)
you will most likely not be here as the Rapture will have taken you home :)

Also Read (From David Wilkerson):

http://www.worldchallenge.org/en/node/1361

This was written in 1980, but is timeless in its reach.

In Christ - David

Billy said...

Dawg, I felt like defending America in my post but when I thought about it...you're right. We deserve what we get.

We've (yes, I'm guilty) become a nation focused on materialistic pleasures. We have millions of abortions. We are the champion porn peddlers. Etc and so on.

Though I love America and it is the greatest nation on Earth it has fallen from grace. I am saddened to write such a thing.

hartdawg said...

david, i believe you are right. its not so much doubt as a distorted veiw of God which is normal and i am working on and Billy, our worst sin as a nation i believe is abandoning and even turning on isreal

Billy said...

Hart, I agree. That's what has saved us up to this point but now...

son of thunder said...

We are not just turning on Isra'el, fellas, but HAVE turned. In an article on World Net Daily a few weeks, back, Hal Lindsey points out that the Obamassiah is no longer looking for a two-state solution; he wants one state. A Palestinian state, with the dissolution of Isra'el as a sovereign nation.

That's not just monkeying around like W. did and getting some Divine slaps on the wrist. It's judgment time.

And as for Wilkerson's vision (if there is one), Dr. Reagan is right: most of the Hebrew prophets ever lived to see their prophecies come to pass. He started these prophecies some time ago, and Rapture Ready says none have come to pass. I disagree. He predicted much of what has come to pass in these past decades.

Anonymous said...

I am doing my best to listen and follow the warning. I believe it when we were told in Acts that young men will see visions and old men shall dream dreams. I figure it this way, if I heed this and stock up food and supplies, and don't need them I have prepared and can bless others... if I don't stock up and I DO need them, I am the foolish one. I work at a police department and we are always studying emergency preparedness and asking people to have supplies on hand.. be wise and listen is my thought.

SeanOsborne said...

Dr. Reagan,

Your support for Pastor Wilkerson above is led by the Spirit and therefore absolutely magnificent. Amen.

The purpose of such warnings, be they in the form of visions, dreams or whatever form the Lord manifests them by the Holy Spirit to the individual - the purpose is to warn, to instill in us the need to redouble our efforts to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the unsaved.

This is not about us selfishly looking forward to the Harpazo and our escape from the coming, but through our witness regarding the Blood of the Lamb to bring as many as possible along as the Bride of Christ and not be "left behind."

Only when we have completed this mission will the Father send His Son to collect us into His presence.

This is the purpose of the prophetic warnings being given us in these last days.

Anonymous said...

Hey guys,

Just a few questions. I get the impression from your posts that many of you believe the Rapture will occur BEFORE the judgement on America. Before anything happens as Dave Wilkerson is saying - lets assume for now he is a Jeremiah for America. This seems a reasonable assumption because I also see that most everyone can't deny God IS GOING TO JUDGE this nation for our rebellious nature somehow and maybe soon. Do I perceive your opinions correctly?

I just have one question I have asked on the previous article concerning this matter. I will ask it more as an opinion because I think we can all learn from one another as God has given us all unique ways of thinking and unique ways of being able to understand different situations. And I cannot claim to know it all so I will listen to others to help me make some sense of what is happening/going to happen. Question---Is it possible that God could judge America before the Rapture? Is it possible that God could spare Believers from a direct form of the punishment - maybe by providing some sort safety net for Believers only? He provided a huge safety net for the Israelites in Egypt during the plagues. Could it be that He will leave us here, at least for a short while, to help shine a light on what has happened, to be that salt and light to a country reeling in confusion, darkness and pain? I think of first century Christians who suffered cruel and unimaginable tortures at the hands of the Romans and others. God left them there physically - and really we are here and have heard the Gospel partly because their witness and perserverence has echoed through the centuries to us. It would be great if Christ would come before any such horrors came to America or this world (Dave Wilkersons "visions" or any other such punishment) but I happen to believe we believers share some responsibilityin the sin (acts of commission or omission as Believers) and we may have to share in some form of consequence. How do you guys/girls see it?

I agree with Dr. Reagan and with most of you here that we should prepare for any worst case scenario and I am going to heed this personally. Billy - you're spot on, I agree 100% that we should focus on Christ's coming, but God also gives us human intellect and I see no contradiction between my faith in Jesus AND preparing to live in this world should trouble/judgement come. I have a wife and 5 beautiful kids and I would be remiss and negligent as a father and husband if I didn't lead my family in preparing for their safety and well-being. And I have read Dr. Reagans book on America and I think he would agree that Christ is the focus but we should nonetheless be ready humanly speaking. The way I see it is if Christ comes there will be some who are suffering the Tribulation who might be grateful for the supplyies I leave behind. Or if nothing happens and my stuff gets old I will have a block party and maybe I can use it to proclaim Christ to some needy soul.

Hey hartdawg. I agree with the other posters. Don't sweat it if you have few means to stock up - God WILL PROVIDE. I do hope that if we are left here that we Believers can be like the first century Believers and share amongst ourselves for survival and mutual support. I think the Bible is clear that we in the Church have an obligation to help one another as Believers - not just those who have not accepted Christ,although they should get our help too. My 2 cents worth - buy in small amount over what you need every time you shop, maybe $10to $20 a time. Brother, if you are in Alabama you are welcome at my table anytime. Just be warned I have 5 children and they are lively.

God Bless
Rob from Alabama

Billy said...

Sean...INCREDIBLE that you would have the nerve to call Christians who are TOLD BY THE BIBLE to have hope and encouragement in the Rapture which DOES allow us to ESCAPE the WRATH of God, that you would call those Christians SHELFISH! UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!

Billy said...

Anyone, ANYONE who says Christians are subject to the WRATH of God is calling God a LIAR for the Bible CLEARLY states we are NOT destined to suffer the WRATH of God!

Billy said...

Anonymous...you said "I happen to believe we believers share some responsibilityin the sin (acts of commission or omission as Believers) and we may have to share in some form of consequence."

DO NOT believe this. Jesus has paid the price for our sin on the cross. If you think otherwise then you are denying this. If you think we have to suffer for our sins then the blood of Christ is MEANINGLESS!

So do not be troubled or think YOU have to pay a price for your sins...JESUS paid that price on the cross my friend!

Remember the Bible says: "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."

Nathan Jones said...

A common misunderstanding is over exactly what wrath God protects believers from.

1) Wrath of the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire/Hell.
2) Wrath on the world during the 7-year Tribulation.
3) Wrath from a fallen world causing suffering.

Almost 2,000 years of persecution shows God allows believers to suffer from the wrath of a fallen world. This includes the rise and fall of nations, like America. Should America fall, it may be God's judgment, but it is not His wrath. Many other "Christian" nations have come and gone over the centuries. We should prepare as if the Rapture will not rescue us from this collapse.

God's wrath on the world during the Tribulation, and then on the unbelievers from all of human history - is a specific type of wrath from God that He promises Christians are exempt from (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thes. 1:10; 5:9). We should put our trust in God's promise to rescue us from His wrath via the Rapture.

Billy said...

Thanks for that post, Nathan. It clarifies what I have been trying to say but failed to do so in an articulate mannter. That is an unfortunate shortcoming on my part as I truly do not want to speak untruths even if unintentional.

Mitchell said...

Nathan said, "Almost 2,000 years of persecution shows God allows believers to suffer from the wrath of a fallen world. This includes the rise and fall of nations, like America. Should America fall, it may be God's judgment, but it is not His wrath. Many other "Christian" nations have come and gone over the centuries. We should prepare as if the Rapture will not rescue us from this collapse."

Excellent Nathan, I agree 100%. There is a difference between judgment and wrath. Judgment begins with the house of God first (1 Peter 4:17). The wrath of God is reserved only for the wicked (1 Thes 5:9).

Nathan said, "God's wrath on the world during the Tribulation, and then on the unbelievers from all of human history - is a specific type of wrath from God that He promises Christians are exempt from (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thes. 1:10; 5:9). We should put our trust in God's promise to rescue us from His wrath via the Rapture."

I agree with this. However, in my view the wrath of God does not come until after the tribulation and it begins with the sixth seal by signs in the heavens.

Revelation 6:12-17, "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Jesus tells us when this happens:

Matthew 24:29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"

We call the 70th week of Daniel the seven-year tribulation, not the seven-year wrath of God.

Also, notice Revelation 3:10, "Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, that shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Jesus says "keep thee from", not "remove thee from", right? The Greek for "keep thee from" in Revelation 3:10 is "tereo ek" and is the exact wording used in John 17:15:

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The Greek "tereo" means "to attend to carefully; take care of; to guard; to reserve; to keep, one in the state in which he is" and does not mean to remove from the earth but to rather watch over during the time of testing. Jesus even prayed in John 17:15 "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world". Revelation 3:10 is saying that we will be kept from the hour of temptation by being watched over, guarded, during this time and not removed from it. We take our children to the playground and keep them from harm, not by removing them from the playground but by watching over them.

Let's look at some other translations and how they've rendered Revelation 3:10:

Rev 3:10, "Because you kept my Word in passionate patience, I'll keep you safe in the time of testing that will be here soon, and all over the earth, every man, woman, and child put to the test." (MSG)

Rev 3:10, "Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world." (NLT)

Rev 3:10, "You have obeyed my word and been patient. So I will keep you safe in the time of trouble which will come all over the world. It will test the people who live on earth." (WE)

Rev 3:10, "You obeyed my message and endured. So I will protect you from the time of testing that everyone in all the world must go through." (CEV)

Nathan Jones said...

I thought we agree on more than we disagree on, Mitchell - good that's confirmed! :)

For a part we disagree on - the timing of the Rapture - if believers are to be protected during the Tribulation, then what is your take on the "great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language" (Rev. 7:9) that "come out of the great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14) who were killed during the 5th Seal (Rev. 6:9-11) which Jesus opens (Rev. 5:5)? Doesn't read like much protection's going on for these "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14) believers.

Mitchell said...

Nathan, excellent questions, let's consider each of the verses you mentioned.

The "great multitude that no one could count" in Revelation 7:9 only appear after the great tribulation. Let's remember that there were no chapter divisions when Revelation was written. After the sixth seal in Revelation 6 and the cosmic signs that happen immediately after the tribulation per Matt 24:29 we read that "the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth..." (6:17-7:1). John then describes the 144,000 and then he describes the great multitude. Rev. 7:14 even confirms that they have "come out of great tribulation." They could not have come out of great tribulation unless they were in it.

Regarding the fifth seal of Rev 6:9-11, John sees those who were killed saying, "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held...". The dead in Christ rise first, and this resurrection only happens after the tribulation. We know this because Revelation 20:4-5 tells us, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years... This [is] the first resurrection."

Those who were killed in Revelation 6:9-11 were killed because they did not worship the Beast, or his image, or received his mark. They were killed for the Word of God and for their testimony and are resurrected after the tribulation, which Revelation 20:6 calls the first resurrection. They will be among the great multitude on Rev 7:14. If the dead in Christ rise first and then we which are alive and remain are raptured, and the first resurrection does not happen until after the tribulation, then there can be no first resurrection before the tribulation.

If we closely examine the text of Revelation 3:10 it is not referring to physical protection. Christians are never guaranteed physical protection nor are we guaranteed to be exempt from tribulation, for "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). As Jesus prayed in John 17:15-17, "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth."

Rev 3:10, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."

The word for "endure" is translated as "persevere" in other translations. The Greek is "hypomone" (G5281) which means "steadfastness" or "steadfast waiting for" or "patiently enduring". Per the context we see that "perseverance" is closely related to the "hour of testing," which is "peirasmos" (G3986) and means to "examine" or "prove". Peirasmos is frequently translated, "to tempt" which is important because Scripture tells us that it is Satan who tempts. 1 Thess 3:5 reads "For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter (Satan) might have tempted you, and our labor should be in vain". James 1:2,12 tell us "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials (peirasmois). Blessed is the man that perseveres (hypomone) under trial (peirasmon)." James is quick to add in the next verse that God "does not tempt anyone." This refers to the "hour of testing" in Rev 3:10 using the identical Greek word: "The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer... Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing (peirasmos), as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Peter 4:7,12,13). When does Christ reveal His glory? See Matt 24:30. Moreover, in 2 Peter 2:9 we read "then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation (peirasmos), and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment." In both cases the believer is present during the peirasmos and not removed from it.

So, even though there are those who are killed during the great tribulation they are kept safe from the deception and temptation of the evil one during the great tribulation, and die "for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" and had "not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands."

hartdawg said...

rob from alabama i agree with you totally. sean osborne, i THINK i agree with you but not sure if i understand you correctly. if you are saying we shouldnt have an attitude of "the rapture will come so no worries" which is what it sounds like then i agree. son of thunder, i thought hal lindsey said its the PALASTINIANS who said they only want a one state solution. even if that is the case we still turned (already) on isreal

hartdawg said...

hey here is a thought, (i think i mentioned it before but am not sure) the bible is very clear that at the time of the rapture people will be eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. in other words carelessly living their lives. if america experiences gods judgement or collapses before the rapture it will affect the entire globe. people will NOT be eating, drinking. . .for a very long time. how would that jive with the imminency of the rapture? answer that please cuz i am confused

Billy said...

hartdawg...i think you make a great point.

hartdawg said...

thank you billy...i think after the rapture america is the very 1st nation God judges

Nathan Jones said...

Thanks, Mitchell, for trying to define your definition of the post-timing of the Rapture for me. But, I'm not getting your timeline, as it seems based on 2 assumptions:

1) That the those who come out of the Great Tribulation in Rev. 9:9-17 are all listed there after the Tribulation, when Rev. 6:11 states otherwise... "wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed". And this scene was recorded well before the Trumpet (Rev. 8-9) and Bowl (Rev. 16) judgments.

2) That God's wrath begins with the 6th Seal when Jesus clearly opens all 7 seals... "He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals" (Rev. 5:5).

Your conclusion that God only protects believers during the Tribulation from deception and not physically actually amazed me. My mind is reeling from the doctrinal issues your conclusion causes if it is true.

Such as, if the true peril to believers is indeed deception, then eternal security and free will go out the window. And, God's not giving anyone anything new in the way of protection during the Tribulation as the Holy Spirit has been active in the work of discernment since Pentecost. And, when it comes time for God to burn up the tares, he uproots all the wheat as well - and proceeds to wail on it.

I just can't get my mind around your concept of God. He sounds no different than Allah.

Help me by answering this question... Do you believe God sanctifies and values people more who are martyred for their faith?

son of thunder said...

Hey, hartdawg, maybe I had my times and places wrong. Hal Lindsey did say it, maybe it was on his show, but Obamassiah is pushing for a one-state solution with no Isra'el.

Anyway, however you cut it, America has called God's judgment down. We've murdered upwards of 50 million unborn children, we've endorsed lifestyles God calls an abomination, we've worshiped the creation more than the Creator, we've abused our children sexually and otherwise; I could go on, but then I'd look like Mitchell (nothin' but love, Mitch!).

But most of all, we have made a practice of cursing Isra'el for the past 30+ years.

hartdawg said...

i rarely visit hals site but i faithfully watch his show. i dont doubt he said it. i dont think its been 30+yrs tho. if so then time just flew by. but what about the eating drinking and marrying factor? it seems illogical that america collapses before the rapture based on the description of society.

son of thunder said...

Hartdawg, I believe there are several things happening here.

1)God is testing (or allowing the testing of) His church to build faith.

2)There are no athiests in foxholes. He is calling people to Him via this "crisis."

3)God is judging an unrepentant nation.

4)The winnowing fork has been applied to the church, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

And as for the Rapture, how do you know that's not what finishes the USA off? Imagine the infrastructure failure when millions disappear suddenly. Planes falling from the sky, traffic jams, the lights going out; firefighters, cops, paramedics and soldiers gone. (I doubt the government would take much of a hit, so it's safe). THAT would be the ultimate judgment.

When Messiah removes His church, all hell is gonna break loose.

hartdawg said...

ah! but still, people will be living glibly and carelessly at the time of the rapture, life as usual, and if anything happens to america that will NOT be the case. see what i mean?

hartdawg said...

here is how i see it, america continues to slide in moral decay, psalm 83 breaks out and america does jack which is the final straw, the rapture happens then God judges america, Gog/magog...

Anonymous said...

Hey Billy - please allow me a little clarification - if I can explain it properly. I absolutely agree with you and I am 100% convinced by God's Word that I will not pay the wrathful, eternal consequences for my personal sins since Christ has already paid MY debt on the cross.

Question though: Is it not conceivable that while I WILL escape God's Great White Throne of judgement, God MAY still allow some punishment (read discipline) on me for not being the Christian I should be - for not opposing sin in my own life more vigorously, for not feeding the hungry as much as I should, etc. I try but I fail. And while God is merciful and full of Grace we are told in The Revelation He is also holy and He disciplines those He loves, He disciplines to bring us back into righteous living. And I think there is probably a corporate form of this in that the Church may have to endure some discipline for collective obedience or disobedience. Nobody said discipline was fun or enjoyable during its season - ask my children. Just speculating - but is it possible that our suffering under the collapse of the United States is that discipline? America and unbelieving persons might get a heavier more extreme judgement but Christians may be required to endure a modified discipline. It would certainly force all of us (Christians too) to re-evaluate what god we have put on the throne in our lives. WHo do we worship - money, freedom, fame, possessions or the God who created us?

That is what I meant by asking if Christians might be allowed to suffer before the Rapture - that guilt and punishment I mentioned. Maybe God wants to purify us before He comes to get His bride. Not that we have to pay for sin - but maybe in a corporate and private sense Christians may need some discipline. Or... if the discipline is really meant for an unbelieving nation maybe God will want us to stay here so we can shine some light and sprinkle some salt in a sin sick, decaying world. And by staying we may be caught up in the ugliness in some form - as did first century Christians. I don't know - but I will trust in my Father and His Son to work out the details.

hartdawg - you had an interesting take on things with that last comment on hunger, merriment - makes one think how it all goes together.

Pondering, wondering, waiting
Maranatha
Rob from Alabama

Mitchell said...

Nathan said, "1) That the those who come out of the Great Tribulation in Rev. 9:9-17 are all listed there after the Tribulation, when Rev. 6:11 states otherwise... "wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed". And this scene was recorded well before the Trumpet (Rev. 8-9) and Bowl (Rev. 16) judgments."

Hi Nathan, I presume you meant Rev. 7:9-17? I believe that Rev 6:11 are those who had died for their testimony but have not yet been resurrected. Per v.9 John saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God. In Rev. 7:9-11 the great multitude is standing before the throne and before the Lamb after the first resurrection, which is after the tribulation.

I should ask, do you view Revelation as chronological? I think the chronology can sometimes be a bit confusing to many at first. "The opinions range from a strict chronology to the idea that there is no sequence of events whatsoever. The first view is easily dismissed. For instance, Revelation 14:1 has Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 Jews when the bowls are still yet to come in chapter 16 and his return in chapter 19. Revelation 11:15-19 states that Jesus has now received the kingdom and begun to reign, that the time for the dead to be judged has come, and that it is time to destroy those who destroy the earth. All of these are events which take place after the Tribulation. Revelation 7:15-17 seems to depict eternity (compare to 21:3-7). Revelation 10:7 states that with the seventh trumpet "the mystery of God is finished." In 13:1 John first sees the Beast coming out of the sea which would be very difficult to reconcile with what has been going on if this is when he first appears (especially chapter 12). Revelation 12:4 is best understood as taking place in eternity past with verse 5 as a reference to the birth and ascension of Christ (although some would understand it differently). Revelation 14:17-20 describes the harvest by the angels which Jesus said would take place at the "end of the age" (Matt. 13:39). Both 14:8 and 18:2 describe the fall of Babylon as if it has just taken place. Revelation 6:12-14 describes the great cosmic signs which Jesus said would take place "after the tribulation" (Matt. 24:29). And both 6:14 and 16:20 describe the disappearance of all mountains and islands."* Revelation is definitely not chronological as some would like to believe.

Nathan says, "2) That God's wrath begins with the 6th Seal when Jesus clearly opens all 7 seals... "He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals" (Rev. 5:5)."

I do not understand why you have an issue with this, can you please explain? Revelation 6:17 is clear that the wrath of the Lamb comes after the opening of the sixth seal, where we then learn of the cosmic signs that Jesus says happen immediately after the tribulation. The word "ogre" (G3709) that is translated as "wrath" is only used six times in Revelation, and each time it is used in a post-trib context. "It accompanies the cosmic signs and revealing of the Lord at the sixth seal (6:16, 17); it is found after the seventh trumpet (11:18); it is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (14:10); it is found after the seventh bowl (16:19); and it is used in connection with Christ’s second coming (19:15). Therefore, there is no problem reconciling the promise of deliverance from God’s orge with a post-tribulational rapture. Every time this promise is made, this word orge is used. If the orge does not take place until after the tribulation is over and the church is raptured, then God’s promise is kept."*

Nathan said, "Your conclusion that God only protects believers during the Tribulation from deception and not physically actually amazed me. My mind is reeling from the doctrinal issues your conclusion causes if it is true."

Don't take my word for it, study it and see. Even the elect will be deceived if it were possible. But what is it that does not make that possible?

Do we find Scriptures -- even one -- that promises us physical protection? We can find many that tell us to expect trials and tribulation and suffering, but none that promise physical protection. That is not to say that God can't do that, He definitely can and it is His prerogative, but it is never promised. Look at the early church and the tremendous persecution they suffered, so many being fed alive to lions. Or the millions slaughtered by Islamic armies throughout the centuries. Or the millions tortured and killed by China after the communist takeover in 1949. Were they kept physically, or spiritually? Millions upon millions of Christians are suffering today, are being expelled from their homes, persecuted for their faith, threatened with death. Where is their physical protection?

Nathan said, "Such as, if the true peril to believers is indeed deception, then eternal security and free will go out the window."

What is more important, the body or the soul? I do not believe in eternal security, I believe it is a very questionable doctrine that cannot be supported from the whole of Scripture in my opinion (And I think it is dangerous. I know of Christians who think they can do almost anything because they think that once they're saved they're always saved.) And I wish the pre-trib rapture were true, but I just cannot see it supported Scripturally imho. Though I would love for these to be Scriptural, I have to go with what I believe the text is telling us.

Nathan said, "I just can't get my mind around your concept of God. He sounds no different than Allah."

This comment saddened me deeply and leaves me troubled that you would think that Nathan. We could both compare YHWH of the Bible to to the false god "Allah" and we would both find that there is no comparison whatsoever my brother. May I ask how you came to that conclusion?

Nathan said, "Help me by answering this question... Do you believe God sanctifies and values people more who are martyred for their faith?"

Sanctifies and values them more? No, that would not be Scriptural in my opinion. We are all saved by faith, not by works, and we are all sanctified by the same Savior who values each and every one of us equally.

* http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/post/link3.htm

Mitchell said...

son of thunder says, "I could go on, but then I'd look like Mitchell (nothin' but love, Mitch!)."

Funny guy! :) Good post by the way brother.

son of thunder said...

Mitchell, thank you, sir. ;)

I think we can debate all we want, all of us, but I've decided to try to keep it more light-hearted and have fun with it. Read what I wrote about pets going to heaven.

hartdawg said...

son of thunder, i watched hal lindsey last night and he said it

son of thunder said...

I understand your point about life going on as normal, hartdawg, but consider this. When Katrina hit the Gulf Coast, did your life stop? Of course not. Unless you were at ground zero, life went on.

When 9/11 happened that bright, sunny Tuesday morning, did life stop?

My life wasn't drastically altered until hurricane Ike hit the Louisville, KY area and my lights were out for a week. Even then, I still had to go to work. Life went on.

The point of this is, the people of this world, not just the US, are so involved in their own universes that we look at the sound-bites on CNN and Fox News, and life, as normal, moves on.

Think about Belshazzar in the book of Daniel. He was throwing a party while the Medes and Persians were taking the city of Babylon. Life went on.

So, I can see life going on as normal, even though we are being judged, up until the time of Rapture.

Anonymous said...

Has it ever occurred to you that we as Christians miss the whole point of the Christian walk? We so often focus on sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, sin (and how to get rid of it in our lives).

BUT

What if God isn't angry at believers anymore? What if, at the cross, God dealt with our sin once for all, and He wishes we would accept that truth and move on to something better? In fact, what if God doesn't want us to focus on sin at all? Furthermore, what if focusing on sin is really self-centered and, well, sinful? What if, instead of focusing on sin, God really wishes we would focus on Jesus and our relationship with Him?

What if God wanted us to stop seeing Him as an angry Judge and instead see Him as our loving Father? What if the trials and tribulations that come our way are to conform us to the image of Christ rather than to punish us for sin? What if we looked at the problems in our lives as an opportunity to allow Christ to work rather than seeing it as punishment or even consequences of sin? What if we took to heart the truths of scripture that say judgment is not for believers but for nonbelievers?

What if?

Laura

son of thunder said...

Laura, if you commit a sin you are out of relationship with the Father and you have to confess your sins and He will forgive (1 John 1:9). We have to focus on sin in our lives. If we don't then we will wander even further away, then suddenly we end up like the Prodigal Son, wallowing in the filth with the swine. And the more we sin, the worse it gets.

I for one don't want to see God as an angry judge, but He is, even though He is also our loving Father. One day He is going to judge this world because of sin. We sin. That's what people do.

We, as a culture, have rejected God outright.

But, the good news is this: that as you said, "...judgment is not for believers but for nonbelievers...." God isn't angry at believers. Think about your earthly father. When you did something wrong, weren't you diciplined? He didn't love you any less, but he had to do it for your own good. And that's what God does for believers.

If people want a vindictive god, who's mad at everybody all the time, Allah is available.

son of thunder said...

For anyone who doesn't know what Hal Lindsey said, here it is:

"Israel Today is reporting that the Obama administration is not just cool to Israel. It alleges that President Obama 'is about to break America's long ties of friendship with Israel, and maybe even take steps toward the dissolution of the Jewish state.'

"If true, America is in even more serious trouble than even the most pessimistic assessment can reflect. If America betrays Israel, then America is rejecting the Word of Israel's God.

"The Bible warns, 'It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.' (Hebrews 10:31) Fearful? That is an understatement of Biblical proportions." - Hal Lindsey "A Fearful Thing, Betraying Israel" March 20, 2009

son of thunder said...

Here's a link to a commentary from last year! Evidentally, this isn't Obamassiah's idea.

http://www.jewishreview.org/opinion/one-state-solution-means-dissolution-of-jewish-homeland

Revelation said...

we are in the birth pains, I think the 3rd trimester! It rains on the just, as the unjust. But I think the Lord will keep us from the 7 year tribulation of wrath, but we as history shows both secular and biblical that we go through periods of repromand both as nations, and individuals. He is faithful and just to forgive us, if we seek it. Problem is the world rejects him, and a chruch that gets more worldly does to. But we prepare in flesh for hard times, but rejoice in spirit for our redemption is ever coming closer!!! Praise the Lord.

Mitchell said...

Where does Scripture say that the seven year tribulation is seven years of wrath?

Anonymous said...

Son of Thunder,

I have to respectfully disagree with you about the whole confessing our sins to stay on the good side of (i.e., stay in fellowship with) God. I believe you're referring to 1 John 1:9, but it never says we are "out of fellowship with God. Furthermore, 1 John was written for a mixed audience of believers and nonbelievers, and I John 1:9 is written specifically for the nonbelievers in the group. Everywhere else after the New Covenant was established (i.e., after the cross), the Bible teaches that all (past, present, and future) our sins are forgiven--AND they are GONE. In fact, they were dealt with before we even committed one of those sins. All I'm saying is that we focus way too much on sin personally and from the pulpit. I believe our loving, heavenly Father is saying, "Look, I've dealt with the sin in your life--all of it. I want you to stop focusing on that sin and start focusing on Me and My love for you. Your response to My love is what will motivate your Christian walk. And when you allow the Christ in you to live His life through you, you will have an abundant life."

Furthermore, God will judge nonbelievers for committing one sin and only one sin! Consider this, Jesus on the cross paid for all the sins of the world. And God the Father accepted Jesus' sacrifice as acceptable. Now the only sin that God will judge is the rejection of His Son!

For a great video about the whole confession thing, check out "Lie #22: When We Do Wrong, We Are Out of Fellowship with God" from the series 101 Lies Taught in Church Every Sunday (on YouTube).

Laura

SeanOsborne said...

Billy,

I'm sorry, but you completely missed the central point that I was trying to make. I am not sorry that I stated what I did, but rather I'm sorry that you (and possibly others) misunderstood it so completely.

Laura,

Your posts above you are truly magnificent. Preach the Word sister!

son of thunder said...

Anonymous said: the Bible teaches that all (past, present, and future) our sins are forgiven--AND they are GONE.

I agree. But, does that give us leeway to sin? Just because we can do a thing doesn't mean we should. Using your logic, we should be able to do whatever we want after we're saved, and that isn't what Scripture teaches.

Believers are called to a life above and beyond. We are to keep ourselves from sin.

SeanOsborne said...

son of thunder said:

Anonymous said: the Bible teaches that all (past, present, and future) our sins are forgiven--AND they are GONE.

"I agree. But, does that give us leeway to sin? "

May I offer the following.

Please read and study John 8 and use the Concordance (denoted by the captial "C" tab among the other tabs (K, C, L, I, V, & D) for each specific word in each verse.

Note Jesus use of the word sin. Study this where the Spirit will lead you.

What I came away came away from this study of the Word is that our being covered by the Blood of the Lamb does not remove the inate human capability to sin, it covers, washes and absolves us of it. We who believe on Him are very capable of sin, but living with The Word in our hearts and with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit makes us conscious of our daily choices in our free will, the things we do routinely and often reflexively, without aforethought.

When Jesus taugh us to pray "The Lord's Prayer" He knew for all time for all believers that each of us would have our human capability to sin, that we would need ask for forgiveness of them and we would need foregive others for theirs against each of us.

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your Kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours.
Now and for ever.
Amen

Anonymous said...

The bible says it rains on the just and the unjust.

hartdawg said...

the collapse of america is way more than hurricane ike, katrina, 9/11 and columbine put together. i hardly think it will be "life as usual" if america collapses. God IS an angry judge but not at his own. he disciplines and prunes us but not punishes us. that was done at the cross. i'm sorry son of thunder but i disagree that life will go on as normal if america falls. i'll pray you get saved and see the light...just kidding. i could be wrong tho cuz christian sadly contributed to the moral decay and wilkerson is not the only one to make this prediction. both flakes and good people said the same thing

hartdawg said...

laura, God will NOT only judge unbelievres for 1 sin. at the great white throne judgement book(s) plural were open and people were judged by what was written in them.

son of thunder said...

I see the point you're making, Sean, and I agree. We do need to be conscious of every move we make. The true child of God will never know judgment beyond the bema seat, but that doesn't give us license to do as we want either. That's why it's called the "Straight and Narrow."

And, hart, I think on this one we'll have to agree to disagree. Maybe one day I will get saved and see the light. Who knows? Maybe you'll get saved and see the light. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, hey, what?

hartdawg said...

once again, to be honest i am not sure i disagree. there seems to be evidence on both sides so i do not know. additionally i do have a biase. this however is certain, 3 events are impending and i dont know the order, psalm 83, the rapture and collapse of america

Anonymous said...

Just wondering if you folks have seen "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" on the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site. It needs to be answered! Sam

son of thunder said...

Hart, personally, I think you have the order right: Psalm 83, the Rapture, the collapse of America.

My opinion is the Rapture is what brings about America's final collapse. In fact, it brings a lot of things world-wide into collapse. Why else would they need a world-wide government?

When [Jesus] was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus answered them, "Beware that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Messiah! and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs. - Matthew 24:3-8

All that is pre-tribulational. According to Jesus this is only the beginning of the birth pangs. It's going to get worse. Fortunately, the courageous people who have placed their lives in Jesus' hands will be safe.

son of thunder said...

Maybe not comfortable, but safe.

hartdawg said...

these things build charecter but i dont wanna build charecter i just wanna be happy all the time

son of thunder said...

And, Anon, the pre-trib rapture was believed by 1st century Christians.

"Although the word Rapture does not occur in the English Bible (the Latin Bible uses the verb here from which rapture derives), the idea is expressed in the words 'caught up.' The Rapture is the first phase of Christ’s return, involving every Christian alive at that time. These Christians will be caught up to meet Him in the clouds, instantaneously receiving glorified bodies. All those who have died 'in Christ' will be resurrected; those who are alive and saved at the time of the Rapture will be caught up with Christ before the start of the 'Seventieth Week of Daniel,' that is, the Great Tribulation. There are many reasons to believe that the Rapture precedes the Tribulation, but fundamentally this view is consistent with a historical-grammatical interpretation of the Scriptures."
King James Version Study Bible . electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1988, S. 1 Th 4:18

son of thunder said...

Hart, I feel ya, buddy. You don't need to build character: near as I can tell, you are a character.

I don't know if you're serious about that happiness thing, but happiness is a choice, bud. We need to be more like the Apostle Paul: He was singing hymns at midnight in prison after having his back beat raw with a thin rod.

There was a happy man.

Mitchell said...

son of thunder, love ya brother, but the Church was post-trib for the first 1800 years. The pre-trib theory is a recent doctrine. I've searched and searched and searched for documentation proving that the early church believed in a pre-trib rapture, and it is non-existent.

"Those whom the apostles personally instructed, and those taught in turn by them, were most likely to know and adhere to the original teachings.

Justin Martyr (100 to 167 A.D.) lived near the time of the apostle John (died 100 A.D.); Justin taught the resurrection and rapture of believers would occur at the beginning of the millennium (Christ's 1000-year reign, which starts just after the Second Coming). Justin also wrote, "the man of apostasy [Antichrist] ...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the Christians" (Trypho cx).

Irenaeus (130 to 200 A.D.) who said he held the actual apostles' teaching, wrote, "they [the ten kings of Rev. 17:1-13] shall ...give their kingdom to the beast [Antichrist], and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1). Irenaeus also said : "but he [John] indicates the number of the name [666 of Antichrist] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is" ( Against Heresies V, 30, 4).

Tertullian (150 to 220 A.D.) attached the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, to the start of Christ's millennial kingdom on earth. Tertullian said the tribulation situation will be such "that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God" (On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv).

Cyprian (200 to 260 A.D.) writes, "Nor let any of you, beloved brethren, be terrified by the fear of future persecution, by the coming of the threatening Antichrist" (Epistle 55,7). And we do well to take Cyprian's advice, since the Lord's grace is sufficient for true believers to be victorious in any situation.

Pseudo-Ephraem (perhaps 400 or 600 A.D.) was a man who "borrowed" materials from the real Ephraem of Syria, ---and some pre-tribulationists have taken several sentences out of context, in an attempt to say that there was an early date for the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. The main two sentences of Pseudo-Ephraem which are quoted, state : "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare oursleves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms all the world? ... For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they ever see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." ---Note, that these quoted sentences do not mention a coming of the Lord, or a resurrection of the dead or a glorification (translation) or a heavenly destination of believers.

However, in a very solid and thorough analysis of the writings of both pseudo and real Ephraem, Dr. Robert Gundry (in his book, "First the Antichrist", '97, Baker, p.161-188) concludes that in reality, "Pseudo-Ephraem urges Christians to forsake worldliness in preparation for meeting Christ when he returns after the great tribulation. Meanwhile, Christian evangelism is taking people to the Lord and gathering them into the Church. ... This interpretation takes account of Pseudo-Ephraem's leaving the corpses of Christians unburied during the tribulation, putting the resurrection of Christians and their meeting Christ at his coming after the tribulation to destroy the Antichrist, making imminent the advent of Antichrist rather than that of Christ, and utilizing the plainly and heavily post-trib tradition of true Ephraem, who repeatedly portrayed present-day evangelism as a gathering" (my emphases).

Not only did the early Church teach that the Church would face Antichrist, and that Christ would return at the beginning of the Millennium, but in all of Church history, there is never a pre-tribulation rapture teaching, until Edward Irving writes of it in the 1830s A.D. -----So, the pre-trib rapture teaching is only 170 years old (and the mid-trib teaching is even more recent).

Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Robert Gundry, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood, -----and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more. -----In looking at the whole history of the Christian Church, the overwhelming majority of great Bible-teachers have believed that the Church would encounter Antichrist, and that the rapture and the Second Coming would happen at the same time ...after the tribulation."

http://worldview_3.tripod.com/tribchurch.html

loki said...

“Revelation 6:17 is clear that the wrath of the Lamb comes after the opening of the sixth seal,”

A few observations - John is actually quoting the unbelievers’ cry. They have only just recognized God’s wrath because of the cosmic events. To paraphrase Dr Showers: If we take the unbelievers’ statement to be correct then we should note that the aorist tense verb translated “is come” is in the indicative mood with the augment. Usually, that kind of aorist tense verb refers to a past event, not future, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise (Dana and Mantey “A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament” pp 193-194). Robert L Thomas: regarding that type of aorist tense referring to something future says, “Some contextual feature must be present to indicate clearly these exceptional usages. No such feature exists in the context of the 6th seal, so these special uses are not options here (“Rev 1-7” p 460).

God uses men as instruments of His wrath (Isa 13:1-5, Isa 9:11-12, Isa 10:5-6) etc. Given that it is Christ that opens the seals and unleashes its contents, I would suggest the context is better argued for a past tense. The wrath of God is clearly demonstrated at the 6th seal AND prior.

Regarding God’s wrath (orge) not being mentioned until the 6th seal - Satan and man’s wrath aren’t mentioned either and yet it is consistently claimed that they are present instead of God’s wrath. The word Trinity doesn’t appear anywhere yet we deduce that truth from Scripture. Some claim there is a rapture at the 7th trumpet yet the word doesn’t appear anywhere in Revelation. Can pretribbers then claim the church isn’t in the tribulation because she isn’t mentioned between chaps 6-19? That a word does not appear in a set of Scriptures doesn’t mean the concept isn’t there.

As for the argument that tribulation and martyrdom has happened in the past so the church is not spared the same in the 70th week – the difference is that the Lord INITIATES the process by opening the seals. If I release a bunch a rabid dogs into a crowd of people, I am responsible for any damage they cause. Moreover, the Two Witnesses (Rev 11:3-6) are certainly wielding the wrath of God regardless of which half of the week they appear in.

loki said...

Ice answers Gundry's conclusions re PE. This isn't so much for you, Mitchell (you're on a mission) - it's more to show both sides of the argument.

AN ANSWER TO ROBERT GUNDRY

son of thunder said...

Mitchell, I noticed everyone you used as an example were post-1st century. This is not what the Apostle Paul taught to the Thessalonians who had thought that the Tribulation had begun (due to a forged letter) and they had "missed the boat."

The Apostles believed that Jesus could return for His church at any time, and they knew it would precede a terrible time based on what Jesus said when asked about the Last Days and the time of His coming. Jesus said when things begin to look bad, look up. If the Rapture is at the end of the Tribulation, then that makes Jesus a liar, in my opinion. He said He would keep us from the wrath to come. How can He keep us from the wrath to come if we're in the wrath to come?

Anonymous said...

Guys we could sit here all day quoting Scriptures (and what a wonderful way to spend the day - being in God's Word) to back up our claims for all the Tribulation theories. In the end though I just kinda wish we could all agree to disagree and be careful about hanging our Christianity on this one issue. I get the impression that there are some who would judge a fellow believers faith and commitment to Christ on this one thing and whether or not they disagree with the others views. And it is not what our Salvation is built on, these are somewhat perepherial issues, issues I believe have to be worked out with fear and trembling as we make our Christian journey in this world. On this issue I think only one thing is important/crucial and that is Christ is coming back for His Bride as He promised; be it pre-, mid, or at least post-Tribulation. At the end of the day I bet we are all wrong to some degree and I am content to let God and His Son who comes to get me work it out on Their Perfect Schedule and in Their Perfect Wisdom. MARANATHA !!!!!!!!!!

(I personally believe in Pre-Trib because it is the most logical and Biblical - to my warped Southern, Redneck brain anyways). My hope and my fervent belief, based on Scriptures as well, is that Christ does take us away before the judgements on the unbelieving world. Humanly speaking I'm with hartdawg in that I would rather enjoy my nice quiet life here in sunny south obamaland ; the dogwoods and azaleas are coming on nicely now and I enjoy my family and God's beautiful Creation. But...if Christ tarries until mid or post tribulation I will trust in Him and He will bring me through with flying colors. Either way I win.

I am still curious though about the issue at hand in Dr. Reagans commentary; what if David Wilkerson is right and he has been given a word from the Lord about America? Mitchell, I still agree that I am escaping God's final and Wrathful Judgement on sin - because of what Christ has done for me. I am not calling Christ a liar - that is unfair to say, but I still say we Believers may be here if David is right and it MAY be part of God's discipline to purify us, to sift us before He comes. I think we are getting hung up on semantics here with the term judgement. I believe we can separate God's final judgement and wrath on a sinful Christ rejecting world from a temporal, temporary cleansing type of judgement on Believers while we live on this side of Heaven. Maybe we can agree to call this temporal judgement discipline if you want. But, DISCIPLINE is still a physical type of punishment handed out as a JUDGEMENT against a wrong. Yes God has removed my sins as far as east is from west through the blood of Christ and he will remember them no more. But the Bible clearly says many times that He disciplines those He loves, and that can only include those He has saved from the eternal consequences of sin. Or as I said maybe at the very least we will allowed to suffer because we are left here physically as America is being judged as a nation (not all suffering is caused by sin - See Job). At that point Christians may have a last chance to show America and the world the true Christ before He comes in Rapture and/or Tribulation.

I say all this because I also understand some here to say that if Christ doesn't come to remove us before any of these "visions" happen Christians will not suffer some discomfort, maybe persecuted even to the point of death. I can't believe this view, it is inconsistant with Christians in previous centuries and current times when believers have suffered discomfort, pain, torture, and even horrific deaths. Christ didn't remove them from their situations and they were allowed to suffer. And today my own friends and relatives, and brothers/sisters in Christ have already lost jobs, money, retirement accounts etc. and even more at our church wait from week to week to know if they are still employed. I don't know about your area but there is an increase in people needing help with everday living (food, rent, gasoline) and the requests are pouring in to our church and our churches missions offices. This is discomfort only and can't compare to persecution and death, but when you are hungry and uncertain about how you will care for your family, this is all that matters at the moment. And most count it as a suffering, terrible moment in their lives. We need to pray mighily and give sacrificially in these times to represent our Lord to a dying world.

Why did the shark not bite the lawyer on the surfboard ??????

Professional Courtesy.

Sorry to insult if there are brother and sister attorneys. Just thought it funny.

Rob from Alabama

El Milenio said...

Do whe "missed the boat."
I do not think so, this point of is not pre-tribulation rapture, or North America will fall down before the rapture??
¿¿---??

Anonymous said...

Lots of water has gone under the bridge since last I commented, but I'll try to address some of the comments directed at me.

"But, does that give us leeway to sin? Just because we can do a thing doesn't mean we should. Using your logic, we should be able to do whatever we want after we're saved, and that isn't what Scripture teaches."

Actually, in a way, it IS what Scripture teaches--pure grace says that believers "can do anything they want." Consider what Paul said "Everything is permissible for me—but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible for me—but I will not be mastered by anything." So, although Paul could do ANYTHING because he was under grace, he knew it wasn't good for him and would enslave him.

But before you write me off as a heretic, consider this: when pure grace is taught, there is always the danger that some will take it as a license to sin. However, when the FULL Gospel is taught (i.e., who we are in Christ and that Christ died to save us from sin AND from self--our flesh-walk), then believers no longer see grace as "leeway to do whatever they want."

One thing to consider: Believers have a new heart (Heb. 8:10). That means we DON'T WANT TO SIN! Consider your life B.C. (before Christ): Did you feel bad about sinning? Probably not. But now that you are a believer, I'd be willing to bet your view of sin has changed to something you don't want to do!

Furthermore, we woefully misunderstand who we are as new creations in Christ. Many (okay, most) teachers and commentaries will say that we have two natures--a good one and "the sin nature". And due to some poor translations of words (such as in the NIV), this error continues to be taught. When you look at KJV, NKJV, and NAS, you will see that many instances incorrectly translated as "sinful nature" in the NIV were correctly translated as "flesh" in the other versions. To be clear, believers on earth will always struggle with flesh (that old-way of doing things that relies on our own resources), but we do NOT have a sinful nature. If we did, then how do you reconcile the scripture that says God joins His nature to ours (II Peter. 1:4)? How can God join Himself to something that is sinful?

At any rate, it is our new nature (nature meaning who we are) which is holy, righteous, blameless, acceptable, and accepted by God (II Cor. 5:21, Col. 3:12, I Peter 2:9). That's why Paul calls believers "Saints"--even those flesh-walking Corinthians! See, we are NOT "sinners saved by grace." We are, in fact, "Saints (who sometimes act like who we're not--sinners)!" But we get the horse before the cart. We think, "Well, I sin; therefore, I'm a sinner." But if I walked around on all fours barking like a dog, that wouldn't make me a dog, now would it? THIS is what I mean when I say an understanding of the FULL Gospel leads people to walk by faith and to live without worrying about sin and, yes, to live sinless (as long as they're trusting Christ to live through them).

And sadly, those truths are rarely taught in church. Instead, most teachers and preachers camp out on the milk of the word. Heb. 6:1 talks about "not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God," and it calls these things "elementary teachings."

Dr. David R. Reagan said...

Now Mitchell, that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is some new view is just not correct. See this blog entry.

Loki, excellent explanation of the Seals and the reference to wrath not being just in relation to the Sixth Seal. Jesus opens all 7 seals = all 7 seals are God's wrath.

Anonymous said...

Anonymus - I'm sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you. According to my dictionary, Flesh can be correctly intrepreted from the Greek and Hebrew to mean "as implying sinfulness, proneness to sin, the carnal nature, the seat of carnal appetites and desires.....". This according to my Hebrew-Greek NKJV of the Bible, a version you mentioned in your post as more reliable in translation.

I also disagree and would say Romans 5:14-25 makes it pretty clear to me that there are indeed two conflicting natures within us while we remain on this earth; one that desires to please our God and one that is sinful. But if you follow that thought into Chapter 8 Paul makes it equally clear that as Christians we are not condemed for that old nature, the newness we have is in the fact that we set our minds set on the things of the Spirit (vs. 5). And if we are in the Spirit then Romans 8:12 says we have no obligation to live as the flesh, as the sinful nature wants. I think he used the word obligation in reference to the fact that the old nature will still tempt us and rear its ugly head - we just don't have to give in like we used to, we are free. So to me it says that while as Christians our heart, soul and mind should desire to please Christ, to have the right mindset -the fact remains that until Christ returns we have to live in this old body with its two natures that will war within us. Based on this I'm sorry I can't see a contradiction in saying I have an old sinful fleshly nature that is battling with my new nature which strives to serve and obey my Lord and Savior.

Also with utmost respect I disagree with your analysis of the church as a corporate body and teachers; "And sadly, those truths are rarely taught in church" and "Many (okay, most) teachers and commentaries will say..." Please remember the church is God's agency for spreading the Gospel of Christ in this world, it is His institution not ours. The para church things we do such as this website, radio ministries, music ministries etc. are great and can be encouraging/uplifting but they cannot replace the church. We are called to gather as a church body, to not forsake the gathering of ourselves (Heb 10:25). God Himself has appointed preachers and teachers to lead us and we should not so easily dismiss, disparage or outright defy them and/or their teachings (Rom. 10:14, 1 Tim 2:7, Eph 4:11-12). We gather and learn from our pastors, teachers and one another as we fellowship as brothers and sisters in Christ. We need to hold each other accountable. There is some value in a consensus of opinion and instruction even in God's house so that we don't get arrogant or off-track in our spiritual growth and/or theology. We help keep each other on track. Just a thought.

Rob from Alabama

Anonymous said...

Hi Rob from Alabama,

Thanks for responding. It's okay if we disagree. That's part of grace. Where did you look this word up at? Just curious.

Please look at Rom. 6:2-8 very very carefully (and please check it out in NAS, KJV, or NKJV). What died? A literal interpretation of this verse can only mean that our sin nature (i.e., "old self") died. And if you say that it didn't die, then Christ didn't die either because these verses teach that the sin nature WAS (past tense) crucified with Christ. Therefore, since the Bible doesn't contradict itself, Paul must be talking about something else in Rom. 7 (you had 5, but I think maybe you meant 7, yes?). If you read those verses very very carefully, you will see that Paul is saying the opposite of what you think: He says, 1) the believer's mind wages war against the "law of sin" which resides in his members (Rom. 7:23), 2) Every war must have two opponents, so "the law of sin" must be in league with Satan, 3) Paul's mind fights with this power, so logic says the believer's mind is on God's side; if your mind and sin were on the same side, there would be no war, 4) Your mind fights this power (also called "the power of sin") because based on Heb. 10:16, you have the law written on your mind.

Where we (myself included) have failed to rightly divide the Word is in regard to that little word "sin." We think it means a verb--to do something, but if you look it up in a good dictionary (see W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words), "sin" in this passage of Rom. (and several other passages in Romans and elsewhere) is a noun (a person, place, or thing). In fact, it is a persona--it has human characteristics. It can deceive, persuade, entice, and make suggestions (see Gen. 4:7). Now this isn't giving the believer a "devil-made-me-do-it" loophole. We are responsible for the thoughts that enter our minds from this "power of sin."

Furthermore, Rom. 7:15 proves the opposite of a dual-nature. If Paul had two natures, he would go back and forth between loving sin and hating sin. But that's not what this verse says: He hated the sin in his life. That's indicative of one nature--the new nature that is holy, blameless, and complete in Christ.

So, where do those thoughts come from that are the doorway to sin? They come from the "power of sin," that persona that suggests, deceives, and entices believers. Sin introduces sinful thoughts by making suggestions using pronouns such as "I, me, my." Then, we think those thoughts are our own, and we accept them--and consequently, commit a sin.

As for the church, I love the church. The church is made up of my brothers and sisters in Christ. However, I stand (as Paul did) against legalistic teachings and elementary teachings in the church.

Anonymous said...

Hartdawg,

In the here and now (pre-death), God judges the unbelieving world for one thing and one thing only--rejection of His Son Jesus Christ. After death, at the White Throne Judgment, people will be judged for all sins BECAUSE they did not accept Jesus' sacrifice for their sins.

Hope that clarifies for you what I meant.

Laura

Anonymous said...

Anon - thanks for your graciousness, after posting I was afraid I had insulted a brother in Christ - not my intent. Fair enough on the issue of the church, I admit in this format it is easy to misunderstand intent of certain words. I said what I did only because I see some supposedly professing believers seriously railing against the church. And it seems that those types of folks do so in order to stir up trouble and set themselves up as THE authority. And that makes me nervous intellectually and spiritually because it can lead new or weak Christians astray, and it disallows the grace of being able to individually work out our own salvation in the fear and trembling of Phil 2:12. I am constantly amazed at how God continues to reveal new truths every time we get in His Word. So what we understand today may be further expanded, explained and understood tomorrow - and next year and so on and so on. Also, I am always aware of how we are commanded to test the spirits and compare what anyone tells us against what the Author has said in His Holy Inspired Inerrant Word. It's an ongoing life long process of learning - from the Word, from the Church and from one another as fellow believers - hence I enjoy these discussions. One day we will see our God and our Savior face to face and only then will we get it all right.

My newest Bible is where I got that definition. It is a NASB translation (sorry I thought it was NKJ - was a recent gift) with a Hebrew-Greek dictionary - published by AMG - The Lockman Foundation. I can only assume their root words are correctly translated - as by common usage by those in the languages fields (it's all Greek to me). The word for flesh as used in Romans 7:18 was defined and translated as I stated previously.

As for the sin nature I think I understand you and I think we may be saying the same thing. Although, I would call that introduction AND accepting of sinful thoughts and then acting on them a sinful nature. We know better, we have the new mindset - the mindset of Christ, we have been saved from the power of sin, we have been spared from the judgement of sin. But we still live in a sinful world and we give in to old habits, - what I believe is the sin nature. And that is where God's Grace comes in. Although we do what we shouldn't and don't do what we should God is a God of a trillion second chances and if we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive. Just the way I read Romans 7 & 8 brother. Like I said it is a lifelong process of learning and allowing God to shine His light where I need it. You have given me food for thought and I do appreciate it - it causes me to desire even more to get to the meat of our faith in Christ.

Maranatha
Rob from Alabama

El Milenio said...

Will North America fall down before the rapture??

hartdawg said...

laura, thanks for clarifying. i agree with that. el milenio personally (and i dont speak for nathan or dr.reagan) i think no. at least not totally. at the time of the rapture (i stated this before) people will be eating drinking... implying life as usual and if america falls it'll affect the whole globe. i do think however america will be the VERY FIRST nation god judges after the rapture and god will judge america the most severely

Anonymous said...

Rob from Alabama:

Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, says this of anthropos (the word used in Rom. 6:6): In the expressions “the old man” and “ the new man,” which are confined to Paul’s epistles, the former stand[s] for the unregenerate nature personified as the former self of a believer, which, having been crucified with Christ, Rom. 6:6, is to be apprehended practically. The latter, “the new man,” stand[s] for the new nature personified as the believer’s regenerate self, a nature “created in righteousness and holiness of truth,” Eph. 4:24, and having been “put on” at regeneration, Col. 3:10.

We celebrate the Lord’s Supper often (especially and appropriately around Easter). No doubt you’ve probably heard thousands of sermons about the blood of Jesus and what it has accomplished for us (and hallelujah for the blood!). However, there are two elements to the Lord’s Supper—the wine representing the blood and the BREAD representing Christ’s body. But how many sermons have you heard about what the bread means to the believer?

When asked, most preachers will say that the bread is a part of the Lord’s Supper because it was part of Passover, and that’s true. But both of these, the Passover and the Lord’s Supper, point to the finished work of Christ at Calvary. So my question is, what does the bread (i.e., the body of Christ) have to do with the believer?

The bread of Christ points to the believers’ co-crucifixion with Christ. What, you say? That sounds blasphemous, but it’s exactly what the Bible teaches. See Rom. 6:2-8, Eph. 2:5-6, Gal. 2:20, Col. 2:12, Col. 3:1.

The logical next questions are what does this co-crucifixion mean and why is it important to believers? And this is where the whole saint (who sometimes sins and acts like who he’s not) vs. “sinner saved by grace” thing comes into play. If one literally translates the verses above, you will see that something died (was crucified) when we were born again. So what died? Well, based on the definition above, “the old man” (that sinner, enemy of God, unrighteous, unholy person). That “old man” was crucified with Christ, and was buried with him in the grave. But that “old man” wasn’t resurrected! No, it was “the new man” that burst out of the grave with Jesus. That “new man” is holy, righteous, blameless, acceptable, and accepted by God!

Some teach that both the old man and the new man live in the believer, but that’s not what the Bible says. That old man died, and it makes no theological sense whatsoever for God to resurrect it.

The believer has one nature—the new man that is holy and righteous and risen with Christ! Do we always act like the saints that we are? Of course not, but that doesn’t mean we’re any less of a saint. It just means we’re acting contrary to our nature.

As you celebrate Easter this year, thank Jesus for the his shed blood for forgiveness of sins AND for the sacrifice of His body for our new identity as saints!

El Milenio said...

Thank You hartdawg,i think the same.
Carlos Chamorro Schutze from Managua,Nicaragua.

Anonymous said...

Anon - agreed. Rom 6:6 uses anthropos and in my NASB Greek-Hebrew they refer to the context for Rom 6:6 as being: "the disposition which is created and cherished by the new nature that Jesus Christ gives to the believer" - the newness of which you speak.

But what I was refering to is the passages in Rom 7:14-25 in which Paul does speak of the conflicting two natures- one of flesh one of spirit. It is in verse 18 he uses the word flesh which is translated from sarx - which in this context is said to imply "sinfulness, proneness to sin, the carnal nature, the seat of carnal appetites and desires, of sinful passions and affections whether pysical or moral". He said this (vs 14-25) after the verses in Chapter 6 where he expounded on how our old self was crucified with Christ. I can only conclude that even though we have the new and it SHOULD rule in our members Paul is saying we also have the old which we war with as we take up our cross daily and follow Christ. To me there is no contradiction - Paul was, I think, trying to remind fellow believers to be on their guard against sin. Yes we are saved, regenerated but temptations will still come our way and we should be prepared with the whole armor of God to resist (I'm preaching to me as much as anyone). Perhaps it was also an encouragement, there are times we as Christians feel perhaps something is wrong with me because I struggle with sin....surely other Christians don't have such burdens - or so we think. So maybe Paul is saying hang in there, temptations will come your way and you will struggle to presevere in following Christ, but you are not alone in your struggle. We are not alone because we have Christ and we have brothers and sisters for encouragement.

At the root I think we are talking semantics. It is the same (to me) whether you say we are acting contrary to our new nature (I agree with you there) or whether I take the view that such acting is consistent with the warring two natures. Yes, God crucified our old nature to the cross and He doesn't resurrect it - perhaps it's we who resurrect it, albeit temporarily, when we make the wrong choice to give in to temptation. But if we agree to disagree that's ok, Either way - the end result is the same; we ain't a supposed to give in to sin-we are no longer slaves to sin as we were BC. You have given me food for thought though and I will take it captive to the Word.

BTW - my favorite analagy for Christ at Easter is seen in the Passover story - which does point to the blood necessary for forgiveness of sin. And I would agree that we should never forget one of the names for Jesus is the Bread of Life. Just as bread sustains my physical body Christ sustains my life. His mortal, human body was horribly battered and broken in the illegal trials and crucifiction. And He did it for me. But praise God he was resurrected, bodily, to show sin and death no longer has the sting or power over us as previously - O death where is thy sting, o grave where is thy victory. I don't imagine it could be the same if He just rose in spirit and left his mortal coil behind. The Romans and Jewish leaders could have trotted out His body to say - see this wasn't the Son of God, we have His body for your inspection if you want to dispute this. Our faith and hope is in a living, resurrected Savior - man oh man how awesome is that???

Nathan, Dr. Reagan thanks for the format. I deeply enjoy discussion with believers (thanks Anon and others) eager for the hard issues, the meat issues - those who slog through to be faithful in all their walk, not just the feel good, tickle my ears Christianity. I wish more could get serious about the Word and how we are to live as Christians until Jesus comes. And I love your commentaries.

Rob from Alabama

Anonymous said...

Hi Rob,

I wasn't sure what verse you were referring to (maybe I didn't read your comment closely enough). I do encourage you to compare Rom. 7:18 in the NKJV, (or KJV), the NAS and the NIV (if you haven't done so already).

This is one of those examples of an incorrectly translated word, which causes lots of confusion. Still, God cannot contradict Himself, and He pretty clearly says in Rom. 6:3-8 that the "old man" has died. How is that old man now up and walking around again?

Just food for thought, and as I've said before, we don't have to agree on this.

Thanks for sharpening my iron, so to speak, and I look forward to more discussions with you and others on this site.

Finally remembering to sign my name:
Laura

Pastor Harold Thompson said...

Comments - i dont know if this will be sent to mr. wilkerson,but this is my intent.we have something very much in common other than our Lord Jesus Christ.in the year of 2000 i had dramtic visions of the prodigal son and God sitting on his throne.it was so dramtic it just about hard to talk about,but i have and many people have to come to Christ and have since then matured in ways that comprehend what people would believe.when i had my first vision of God sitting on his throne and after it was over ,it felt like i was a sheep who barely made it through the gate as the gate was closing and it was like God was telling me if anybody wants to go with him ,they better get ready because he is comming soon and that was over 9 years ago.he has audibaly talked to me once and i have had several encounters.i am in no way painting a picture here as i have had dramtic catastrophies happen in my life since then as well. we are not above the pain of this world,that i can assure. i seen his article on david reagans web site and felt prompted to write for some reason.so can this reach him or how do i contact him?One last thing,it does say in th book of joel of people having visions and in acts repeating this.I see so many people who dissagree with this man and that i dont understand.Has the Holy Spririt died and just visions go to people of Jesus's day.God is the same,yesterday,today and tomorrow and he is not confined by time! thank you Pastor Harold Thompson
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davidson county said...

I believe it is good to heed Wilkerson's voice. I was reading Isaiah 2:12 today and I also believe that the LORD'S judgment is upon America.But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation, My God will hear me.
Micah 7:7

Anonymous said...

I am very familiar with David Wilkerson and a finer Christian I have not known. He is such a humble servant of our Lord and has never drawn attention to himself or U all would know who he was.

Thousands of people have benefited from his many ministeries such as Teen Challenge etc.HIs ministeries are not in any debt and Certainly he and his wife and family have suffered all kinds of tribulations and sufferings.

I have been taught that there is a difference from being a Prophet and having the gift of prophecy.
We are told to judge these gifts in 1 Cor 14: 29-32
David has been saying calamity is coming for over 25 years and even secular people feel that we are due for some calamity.
With all of the floods. storms ,fires,earthquakes, natural disaters etc., (Matt. 24) it seems a good thing to have a short supply of food, especially water.

Wrath and tribulation are seperate words with totally different definitions but I continually hear Prophecy teachers use these words interchangably.
WRATH; intense angry,rage, fury, to inflict vengeance.
TRIBULATION; to press, great misery or distress, or the cause of it......
THREASH; to beat out (grain from husks.)It takes heavy pressure to beat the Chaff off the wheat, as in when the tares and wheat are seperated at the end of the age.
Both Chaff and tares are burned in the fire.The wheat taken into the Lord's barn.
Matthew 13:18-43
Who is going to be gathered out of God's kingdom? The tares and wicked people. Psalm 37

In a country who has so many people with a entitlement mentality don't U think if food etc ran out, that many of them will riot and try to take from those who have? ( how about the ten virgins/ 5 wise and 5 not?) Look what happened in Katrina for an example.
Hebrews 10;32-39
Scarlet Isa. 1:18

Anonymous said...

Why make things so complicated. Its all about being prepared spiritually and physically, so you may be there to help others.

You can see with your own eyes that events are unfolding just as the Bible has foretold.

Why is it bad to be a little bit prepared? God has already given us many examples over the past few years with 9/11 and New Orleans. Why fight the warnings with all this complicated retoric. I believe God's message is very simple and always has been!

Anonymous said...

My question is that assuming that we are all Christians here; So if Jesus does not take out His Church and that we (those that can) do what we can to prepare for some tough times that may befall us, what do we do about the multitudes that have not?
The Lord did say that the Church is not appointed to His wrath but America really is not even mentioned in the Bible! So just be prepared to give the shirt off your back! Yes we are going to see some very trying times I feel before His church is called! These pastors need to wake up and start telling us the way that it very well could be! Just think about it, no utilities at best, let alone a place for the family to live! It could get very ugly soon but it also would be a great time for His commission! We are used to comfort nothing like the third world and it would not take much to make us edgy.

Anonymous said...

I agree with what Todd Strandberg's post on his Rapture Ready Page:
http://www.raptureready.com/

Nearing Midnight page about Wilkerson's visions.
Check out the link below please.

http://www.raptureready.com/nm/240.html

Anonymous said...

It is interesting that in Joel Rosenberg's fictional book "Dead Heat" the exact thing Dave Wilkerson is predicting comes to fruition as stated in the following book review:

In the latest Jon Bennett and Erin McCoy thriller—billed as the finale of the series—terrorists attack the U.S., vaporizing a large chunk of Washington, D.C.; destroying CIA headquarters; and turning Times Square into rubble. The president is presumed dead, and the shaken vice president is trying to restore order. ....

What is even more interesting is that many of the events that Mr. Rosenberg wrote about in this fictional series have actually come to pass after the books were written.

Also in his fictional books the rapture did not happen until after Gog/Magog war and after America suffered the terrorist attack on four major cities.

Pray for our country.

Anonymous said...

I have no problem with Dave Wilkerson's prophecies, however, I don't understand why the focus on America. Is America more sinful that all other nations? Is it more deserving of judgement? Surely, if God is going to judge, it will be equally on all nations deserving it? As far as I can see, God has only ever singled out one nation to be separate from all others, and that is Israel, not America. I am sure God sees America as no different to any other nation on earth so why would He single it out for a judgement separate from any other?

Just a thought.

Carter said...

I think if someone had a vision from God and didn’t tell it. Would bring judgment on there own head. The Lord told Ezekiel about that in Ezek. 33:1-13. Thank God for the Watchmen! We need to be prepared and not be fools. To me it’s so obvious that God is lifting His hedge of protection for America for its sins, just like the Israel of old, and there the apple of His eye! "To as much that has been given, much is required!"

I believe that we will see some persecution for our faith before the rapture, it has been happening in our school systems little by little. Satan is going after our youth and our churches like a whirlwind! Let us “fight the good fight!” and let us all “pray without ceasing” as the Word says “that we might be found worthy”!

God bless you all!

Anonymous said...

Anonymus - I love Joel Rosenberg's novels too. If you have not already done so you may also wish to read "Epicenter" in which Mr. Rosenberg lays out the real world experiences, information and thought processes that led him to write this series of popular books. Eye opening kind of stuff.

And other Anon from earlier Thursday - this was my question before relating to David Wilkersons "visions". I personally feel he may be right so my question was: Will we Christians have to suffer if (wrong word - not if but when) America comes to judgement as a nation? AND I agree with you: If nothing else it seems the collapse of America as we know her may be God's way of getting our attention. He may use such circumstances to call Beleivers to be more diligent and faithful in serving our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and proclaiming the Good News.

But this brings up another question or two. If we feel led and are able to prepare for the suffering - how far does Christian charity go? I have felt led in my heart and mind for the last year or so to stock up on supplies because I have a wife and 5 kids. If we give away a portion of our supplies to those who have not prepared - certainly the Christian thing to do - what will we have to live on, how long will we last? Where is my ultimate responsibility - to others or my own family? In real terms it wouldn't take long to go through all my supplies (I'm shootin for a 2 month supply + my own garden) if I added even a small family of 3 to my table. I live in a rural area where I can grow a substantial garden and get away from potential city riots/crime. How covetous should I be of my situation should the city slickers figure out where the peace is and where the gardens are.. What if they decide they need my supplies more than I do? Let's not kid ourselves what people would do - peoples reaction to Hurricane Katrina would be a Boy Scout picnic compared to what they would do in a complete collapse of a way of life. Do I protect my garden and home with force or do I let other steal or do I give it all away? Remember I have a family depending on me and we are preparing. Is it my fault others haven't heeded God's warning signs and visions? Not being mean - just realistic. Yes God will supply our needs and care for us beyond my wildest dreams but as a flesh & blood human I eventually have to make a decision on what I do. I am amazed at how many people, many of them Christian, are being led to think of preparing for the worst - God is trying to get our attention I think. We haven't said a whole lot about our preparations but my wife and I have gotten in several unsolicited conversations lately about this topic so it's not just me. And I think these are questions best asked and answered before the need/situation arises. We should work together to find the God honoring solutions. And yes I am reading my Bible and I am looking for God's Wisdom on this matter but it's really late/early and I apologize for being in a worldly frame of mind right now.

I have opinions/thoughts but no one human is the end authority on these matters. I think God will move among His people in these days and will cause most of them to be of one mind so we can have some confidence in going forward with the right choices in these matters. So I am curious what fellow believers feel and think. I only want to honor my God and His Son in all that I do.

Perhaps a little tin foil hat, nutty kind of guy -
Rob from Alabama

LarryWS said...

When I recently received an email from a friend containing David Wilkerson's most recent statements, I was prompted to retrieve my copy of "The Vision" from my library which I had not read in over thirty years. It was chilling to read things that have come to pass since the book was first written (if you haven't read the book, you should)!
I also recently RE-discovered the Gordon Jensen song, "Redemption Draweth Nigh" which was first released back in the early 1970's. I wept as I listened to the song and thought, how prophetic!
Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

Gideon said...

" Is America more sinful that all other nations? Is it more deserving of judgement?"

As a human being I agree with your statement, but as a Christian I have to disagree that America isn't any worse than any other nation. Let me explain, America on average is a much better country than the rest of the world, but we are a radically different country. Only two countries in the entire world were founded upon a covenant with GOD, and they are, Israel and the United States.

Israel of course, was founded upon the Old Testament covenant with GOD. The United States was founded upon not only GOD, but more specifically the teachings of Jesus Christ. We don't have to go any farther than reading about Plymouth Colony, and the Mayflower Compact (a major influence on our Constitution) to find this to be true. Because of our special relationship with GOD, our nation is dealt with differently by the LORD.

Let's look at the similarities between Israel and America:
- Israel founded by 13 tribes
- U.S. founded by 13 states

- Israel initially led by Judges not Kings
- U.S. rejects monarchy for a President(kinda like a judge)

- Israel split into North and South and actually fought each other.
- U.S. split into North and South and fought the Civil War

- When 13 tribes entered the promise land they had to fight the natives to take possession of the promised land GOD had promised to them.
- After U.S. was established they moved West to increase the nation's land, and fought the natives for possession. Remember Manifest Destiny, this thought was the thought that it was ordained by GOD that the U.S. should border the Pacific and Atlantic.

- Israel changed gears every 400 years: 400 years of captivity in Egypt, 400 year rule of Davidic Kigns, etc.
- U.S. in basic existence for 400 years - 1608-2008, change occurs with Obama, now U.S. giving up sovereignty moving away from capitalism.

My point here is not replacement theology, which is junk theology. My point is that the U.S. shares a common history, blessing, and judgement by GOD because we set up our nation under him. We will be dealt with very differently than other nations, and since our government has embraced the sins of this world: homosexuality, pornography, abortion/infanticide, idol worhip, and at the same time thrown GOD out of our schools and government, then our nation will be judged.

Love Jesus said...

Thank God for the Gospel that is the only power that can save and deliver and for the ministries that are preaching the truth of repentance and trust in God through Jesus who is "Christ and Him Crucified for the sin of the world". My husband Tom and I trust the Spirit in Dave Wilkerson and we agree because my husband also hears the same message by the Spirit "Call to Repentance". Our All About Jesus Newsletter that we send out each month declares God's Word of repentance to a rebellious Nation and the godless judges in our country. We need to take heed to what God is saying throught His Prophets. God is good and He always sends a warning.

Anonymous said...

It is not just an American judgment it is a world wide judgment! The time of repentance is over, nothing will overturn this judgment. The warning is from God Himself and He is preparing His people for what is to come.

Dani' El said...

Shalom.
My name is Dani' El. I'm a Messianic Jew living in Sodom, CA (San Francisco) and I've been giving a similar warning for this year, with a couple of key differences.

My prophecy is NOT extra-biblical, but the fulfillment of Luke 17:28-37 which foretells the destruction of an end times Sodom.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

I am the "Lot" of verse 29.

On the day I leave the city for Israel (at God's command), God will destroy SF and LA, the end times Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone from heaven, possibly by the eruption of the Yellowstone Caldera.

I have problems with Wilkerson's prophecy as I identify NYC as Babylon the Great which will not be destroyed until the GT.

Although it is possible that there will be great unrest, even anarchy and terror attacks on the east coast when SF and LA are destroyed.

Again, my prophecy is not extra-biblical but the prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 17:28-37, I merely expound on it by revelation from God.

To all of God's elect in California (how few we are!)
REMEMBER LOT'S WIFE!!

I've written in great detail on my blog of my arrest, being jailed for 40 days in Sodom without charge or a lawyer in Aug 2005, 1 week after being called to this work by God.

I've been beaten, kicked, spat on and abused by the wicked men of Sodom for 3 1/2 years and the judgment is determined.

I ask for your prayers as the day draws near, and you have mine always.

All glory to the Father and His Holy One, Messiah Yeshua!

Dani' El

Arlette said...

This is to comment back to Billy . Yes you are a foolish man. Jesus said in Matthew 16:3 O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times. I would listen to David Wilkersen if I were you.
God Bless Arlette

Sara said...

Thank you Dr. Reagan for posting this article. I may not agree with you about the Pre-trib rapture but I have great respect for you and I find that I can receive your writings in my spirit.

I am very weary and tired of the rapture debate. Especially when that mean and arrogant “know it all” spirit (on both sides) shows up in discussions. I also regret that people are so dogmatic about it.

I believe that there will be many, many prophecies that will happen in an unexpected way. The first coming of the Messiah is an example. When Jesus was born He was hardly noticed. The understanding of the Jews of that time was that when the Messiah appeared, He would deliver them from the Romans. Nothing was further from the truth. So be prepared to have misconceived and misunderstood many prophecies.

This is one subject I do hope I am wrong about but I just cannot find it in the Word. Honestly, I do hope I am wrong and that I will be “caught up” before I have to run and hide in the woods and am hungry and cold. I really believe Jesus when He said not to worry about these things, so I don’t.

I also do not think this is a salvation issue and I have great faith that if the rapture does not happen as is anticipated (pre-trib)then the body of Christ WILL get with the program.

Mitchell - Thank you to for your excellent writing and explanations about the rapture.

BYW- Has anyone actually read Margaret McDonald’s Revelation? I have read it many times and I must say this “revelation” alludes to some things that do not in any way sound like what we have been taught to believe. Especially where she says “I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that it were possible the very elect will be deceived - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.”
This does not sound like a pre-trib rapture scenario to me.

Here is the link where you can read the full text.

http://www.apostasynow.com/topics/trib/pretrib08.html

As to “God’s judgment of America”. There is no doubt in my mind about it. I have prayed and prayed about this issue and have gone so far as to pray for more time for the believers to prepare. This is “Thus said the Lord” to me from April 2nd. “There is no reprieve.”

Here is a website of a friend of mine who I vouch for. This man has been warning about these things since the early 1980’s and has suffered terrible persecution and rejection because of it. I also know for a fact that God has healed and delivered many people through him as the vessel.

http://unitedstatesprophecy.com

I urge my brothers and sisters to pray like never before! Press in like never before and ask God how YOU should be preparing. If everyone who claims to be “born again” is NOT hearing a word from God then you need to EXAMINE YOURSELF! Please, we all need to be led by God’s Holy Spirit NOW!

The Lord has asked me to pray every day for the Body of Christ, So my dear brothers and sisters I pray that you will come into the fullness of Jesus Christ “in you”. I pray for you to be led by the Holy Spirit of God. Please pray without ceasing, fast and seek to know our Lord God Almighty and our Savior in a deeper and more profound way. I bind up the spirit of deception, apostasy, lethargy, pride, bitterness and invoke the love of Jesus Christ be manifest in each who love Him and seek Him.

Praise God! IN Christ, Sara

Mitchell said...

Loki said, "To paraphrase Dr Showers: If we take the unbelievers’ statement to be correct then we should note that the aorist tense verb translated “is come” is in the indicative mood with the augment. Usually, that kind of aorist tense verb refers to a past event, not future, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise"

Dr. David R. Reagan says, "Loki, excellent explanation of the Seals and the reference to wrath not being just in relation to the Sixth Seal. Jesus opens all 7 seals = all 7 seals are God's wrath."

Hi Loki and Dr. Reagan, I have considered this before as well. However there is much that Dr. Showers isn't sharing here in trying to assert that "wrath" (orge) is being used in the sense of a past event. For your consideration, here is the problem with such an assumption:

Rev 6:17, "For the great day of their wrath (orge) has come; and who is able to stand?"

First, what we need to do is also look at the verb "has come" (elthen) in Rev 6:17, which means "to come" or "to go". The meaning of this word does not mean that the wrath (orge) of the Lamb had already started some time in the past and has continued up until that time. If it had been referring to something in the past the verb would have been used in the perfect tense (in Greek the indicative mood is normally used to tell us of events existing in the present due to some event of the past). Rev. Bill Lee-Warner sums it up well with a few points by first noting that the word elthen is "a transitive verb (an action verb requiring an object) in the aorist tense. The aorist tense in its unaffected form is, in essence, punctiliar. The context of the aorist, as any Greek verb, determines the tense or how it is to be understood. It can be understood to mean past or future, depending on the context. A.T. Robertson, in his book, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research, says 'The caution must be once more repeated that in these subdivisions of the aorist indicative we have only one tense and one root-idea (punctiliar actions)' (p. 835). Later he says of the aorist tense, as it relates to events that occur in the future: "It is a vivid transference of the action to the future by the 'timeless aorist'" (p. 846). In other words, the aorist tense speaks to one particular issue that is timeless, the context clearly determining the tense of the action, as against the common belief of some who would make the aroist tense always a past completed action. In this case, the action of the people mentioned in verses 15 and 16 'men...(are [now] hiding) themselves in caves and among the rocks of the mountains" indicates that their action has been prompted by some determining factor. That factor is made known to us in verses 12 and 13 - the oft-repeated sign of the coming Day of the Lord's wrath and the subsequent response of mankind indicated in verses 15-16.

A similar use of the same verb is found in Mark 14:41. Jesus announces to the disciples that the 'hour has come [elthen]; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.' The exact same structure of the aorist tense found in Revelation 6:17 is used in this verse. From the context, it is clear that Jesus doesn't mean that He has already been betrayed previously and is presently incarcerated. It means that the hour of His betrayal (by Judas) has now arrived and He's about to be taken captive. This contextual information leads us to understand that the transitive verb has come and its object, the hour of His betrayal, is used in an ingressive sense. That is, the action where Jesus is betrayed "into the hands of sinners", is about to be entered into, or ingressed. The same understanding applies to Rev. 6:17."

Second, "From the indication of the natural lights being extinguished in the heavens (Rev. 6:12-13), we are to understand that the Day of the Lord is about to come but has not yet come. In the Old Testament, the prophet Joel explicitly tells us that the Day of the Lord arrives after the natural lights in the heavens are extinguished and not before (Joel 2:31). The Day of the Lord is the time for God's wrath upon all the earth (cf. Zeph. 1:14-18; Obadiah 15). With this clear teaching, we know that the wrath of God does not begin before the 6th Seal which is the sign of the arrival of the Day of the Lord."

Third, "Another reason for knowing that the wrath of God doesn't begin before the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17) has to do with the 1st Seal. If the 1st Seal - false christs (cf. Matt. 24:5) is included as part of God's wrath, then God would be responsible for sending deception into the world and even deceive His own. If the Rapture begins sometime before Rev. 6:17, and presumably prior to the 1st Seal, as the pretribulationist says, then God would be guilty of martyring His own (Rev. 6:9 - the 5th Seal martyrs) who are persevering during a time of severe persecution. Unthinkable! Nowhere in all of Scripture is the persecution of the saints associated with the wrath of God. It is associated with the activity of Satan and during the 70th Week of Daniel, it is specifically associated with the activity of Satan through his minion, Antichrist. On the other hand, everywhere in Scripture the judgment of the wicked is associated with the wrath of God.

For prophetic, contextual and linguistic reasons, Revelation 6:17 cannot, and does not, teach that the Rapture of the church occurs before the 6th Seal."

http://www.scriptorium.org/articles/faqs/faq_0016.html

Loki said, "Regarding God’s wrath (orge) not being mentioned until the 6th seal - Satan and man’s wrath aren’t mentioned either and yet it is consistently claimed that they are present instead of God’s wrath."

1 Thess 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath (orge), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". Each time the word "orge" is used in Revelation it is always used in a post-trib context, and not during the tribulation.

Dr. David R. Reagan writes, "Now Mitchell, that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is some new view is just not correct. See this blog entry."

Are you absolutely sure? If you like we can go through each of the early church father's writings on the "imminent return" and investigate what each of them really believed in terms of the timing of the rapture.

Mitchell said...

son of thunder writes, "Jesus said when things begin to look bad, look up. If the Rapture is at the end of the Tribulation, then that makes Jesus a liar, in my opinion. He said He would keep us from the wrath to come. How can He keep us from the wrath to come if we're in the wrath to come?"

Hi brother,

First, when are we told to look up? This is from Luke 21:28. Let's look at the immediate context of this verse:

Luke 21:25, "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

This is when we are then told to look up:

Luke 21:28, "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Notice the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus says these signs occur immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:29. This is when He sends His angels to gather the elect, not before.

Also notice the revealing of the Son of man coming in power and great glory immediately after the tribulation. What does Peter say regarding the revealing of His glory?

1 Pet 4:13, "But rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy."

As for us being kept from the wrath to come, the wrath (orge) to come only comes after the tribulation according to the book of Revelation. If we are gathered after the tribulation but prior to the post-trib orge then His promise is still kept.

son of thunder writes, "The Apostles believed that Jesus could return for His church at any time, and they knew it would precede a terrible time based on what Jesus said when asked about the Last Days and the time of His coming"

Are you sure? Jesus said that we don't know the day or the hour. Does this support the idea of "imminency" as it is taught today? That verse is probably THE verse to support the doctrine of imminency. Without imminency there can be no pre-trib doctrine, and without the pre-trib doctrine there can be no imminency. It’s a bit of a circular Catch-22 codependancy. Show one of them to be incorrect, and both crumble.

Consider the following, if you will:

The words of Christ are in Matt. 24:36; 25:13 and Mark 13:32 when He said that no one knows the day or hour of His return, so according to the doctrine of imminency we can never know when Christ will return and it will be signless. Is what Jesus said here true? Everything that Christ says is truth, so yes. However, Revelation 3:3 presents a problem for the belief that "we can never know the day or hour". In my view I think that Revelation 3:3 alone, not to mention Matthew 24 and Luke 21 as a whole, are serious problems for the idea of an imminent return of Christ:

Revelation 3:3 says, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

This statement by Jesus is often overlooked, but it reveals something that is very significant and profound: IF we do not watch He WILL come upon us as a thief and we WILL NOT know what hour He will come upon us. If this verse is true, then the inverse must also be true: If we DO watch, He WILL NOT come upon us as a thief, and we WILL know. If this is correct, and if we watch and can know, then imminency and therefore pre-tribulationism crumbles.

Christ’s words in Revelation 3:3 are true just as His words in Matt 24:36. So, how could Jesus say that we could never know the day or the hour of His return and then imply that we could know in Revelation 3:3? Scripture cannot contradict Scripture so either one of the verses is wrong (which is not possible), or our understanding is wrong somewhere. It’s not hard to figure out which one it is.

Let’s look at them again: Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only". Are there other clues here that can help us to resolve the seemingly contradictory statements by Christ? Yes. If we look more closely we realize that it doesn’t say anywhere in this verse, nor in the context of Matthew 24 or elsewhere, that we can not know, and that we will never know. It only says, in the present tense, that we do not know when He will return. A few verses later in Matthew 24:42 Jesus tells us to WATCH for the signs that He just gave us. But why would Jesus tell us to watch for signs? Imminency says that the rapture is signless, right? The reason why Jesus tells us to watch is BECAUSE we do not know the day or hour of His return. Bingo! Jesus is telling us that because we do not know the day or hour of His return that we must watch for those signs that He just described, which is exactly what He alluded to in Revelation 3:3. This is also the exact same thing that Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonian 5:1-6 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, telling us that the Day of the Lord is our gathering unto Christ, and that that day — the Day of the Lord — will NOT overtake us as a thief IF WE WATCH.

Both Jesus and Paul do not teach any imminent return and state without question that there will be signs preceding the Second Coming of Christ. If we watch, we CAN know.

David Spangenberg said...

I completely agree with Dr. Reagan regarding Dave Wilkerson. I have read Pastor Wilkerson's books. The "Cross and the Switchblade" was very moving for me when I read it in 1986.
Yes, we are certainly under Judgement as a nation. Anyone that thinks that this nation will not be judged is a fool. God said he will judge "All the Nations" us included. And as Dr. Reagan pointed out we have been receiving remedial judgements since the 60's.
Could it be that we may be the Babylon prophesied in Revelation 18?
3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her.....
4Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins....
(Rapture)
6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works....

As a Nation we are extremely blessed. More so than any other Country. Because of this, much is required of us and so we must act accordingly with the foundation of Gods Word as our guide.
If we dont, then we are doomed to judgement and possibly destruction if we dont change our ways.

I take Dave Wilkersons word to heart. Many Pastors have been giving warning to us to get our finances in order. Did they know something? Look at our current financial situation in America. We are certainly struggling. I would not be surprised if a debtors prison was recreated for those of us that still owe. Getting our finances in order was a warning and it was prophetic.

Anonymous said...

I think David Wilkerson's URGENT WARNING is more in line with JONAH's urgent warning...40 Days.
We'll see.

Carter said...

Hey Brother Mitchell, It is very evident that you know the bible very well and you are very passionate in what you write and believe. I admire that very mucn.
I too am very passionate about God's word and I know that we as Christians are not appointed to the wrath to come. Just like God gave an escape route for Noah and Lot in the wrath that God was about to pour out on all unrighteous of their day. He is going to do the same for the righteous of this age.
You made the observation about Luke 21:28 which states: And when you begin to see these THINGS come to pass, look up...
You highlighted the word THINGS. But I believe the right word that should have been highlighted is BEGIN. I think that is the key word in this warning/salvation prophetic verse. In other words,in the early stages before these things transpire, look up...

Respectfully your Brother in Christ,
David from Kentucky

Anonymous said...

As much as I HATE to say it, this Country made it's decision back on 4 Nov. 2008 when She turned Her back on Her Heavenly KING and elected an earthly king to replace HIM. We (a Nation as a whole) are about to reap what we have sown and we have NO ONE to blame, but ourselves, YES the chickens ARE coming home to roost as Jerimiah Wright said!
How many times can we stick out our finger and poke our Creator in the eye EXPECTING to get away with it? Look at the SIN'S of this Nation, dare we expect continued blessing(s) from our Father?
The Obama administration WILL sell out Israel to seal our fate as THIS (our relationship with Israel) is the ONLY thing standing between us and destruction. We have in the past and continue today with our rebellion against the Ancient Of Day's and He equates rebellion to witchcraft.
We are a rebellious, arrogant and stiffnecked people, Bother Dave's vision may take place sooner than we know.
The word say's "If MY people who are called by MY name will humble themselves and pray...KEY words, MY people--called by MY name, That's US, His Church, His Bride, NOT the unbelievers, elected officials or anyone else, just US, wake up Brothers and Sisters get your knees and PRAY for this Nation to REPENT and go back to Her FIRST Love. WE are the salt and LIGHT of the earth, lets start acting like it!

TheWatchman777

Anonymous said...

If Brother Wilkerson's prophecy is indeed a "Jonah" prophecy (a 40 day warning) then it would be, by my calculation, May 1st when the calamities begin. May 1 is "May Day," which is also used as an internationally recognized distress signal that is only to be used in dire emergenices.

Add to that the fact that May 1 is a big holiday in most communist nations, and that date has some ominous overtones.

If this disorder and rioting lasts 30 days, that will bring us into June. There have been many predictions of "a summer of discontent" for the summer of 2009 (mass rioting and rebellion), that would result in martial law, and the removal of all of our remaining constitutional rights.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I have read extensively of so-called FEMA camps that look more like concentration camps that are ready and waiting for some as-yet unknown event that will put them into use. There has been documentation that some of these camps even have crematoria and guillotines (see Revelation 20:4-5, about those who were beheaded for the witness of Christ). This all leads me to believe that something hugely sinister is about to happen.

I am praying for God's protection and repenting every day, because I truly believe America's judgement is very near. At the same time I believe the scripture where it says we are not appointed unto wrath, and am placing my faith in God's word for our deliverance from the horrors to come. Yours Truly, Brother Ira

Dal said...

THE HAND OF GOD:

When I visit the following NASA link to view the Pulsar-Showing-Hand image, I could see clearly the Holy Face of our Lord wearing the brilliant glorious crown of thorns. I viewed this image on April 7th morning and that night I read a picture children Bible for our young children as it is our custom, continuing where I had left off the previous night. That night I read the event of the Hand of God writing on the wall for the Babylonian king, the event interpreted by the prophet Daniel.

We are the modern Babylon and from the sky, God has just shown His Hand before He deals us a destructive blow. As our Lord Jesus suffered and continues to endure suffer due to our sins, we too shall suffer through our coming purification.

Below is the link from NASA and the picture’s caption.

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_1323.html

A Young Pulsar shows its hand:

A small, dense object only 12 miles in diameter is responsible for this beautiful X-ray nebula that spans 150 light years. At the center of this image made by NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory is a very young and powerful pulsar, known as PSR B1509-58, or B1509 for short. The pulsar is a rapidly spinning neutron star which is spewing energy out into the space around it to create complex and intriguing structures, including one that resembles a large cosmic hand.

Note:
I had to type in " hh2 " to post this message. "hh2" = hydrogen?

Anonymous said...

I just want to say how refreshing it has been to read so many insightful thoughts. I especially enjoyed the latest by Sara.
All learned scholars completely missed Jesus. I think, unfortunately that this is again ocurring today.
I hear of so many Christians preparing, and I as well, as a mom with children. I want to mention the virgins of the bible who were waiting for the bridegroom, and when he came, they were out of oil, being poorly prepared. As well, Noah. He planned thoroughly we all remember.
I respect David's visions. We cannot presume to know the day or time, but we are told to "love our neighbor" and that the "workers are few" for the harvest.
I too, question all the rapture discussions. It seems to me that all this study will be judged by our Lord, as we should have been working in the harvest with this lost time. I can't help but wonder if Fear is the reason for all of this study and debate.
God's logic is not ours. Would you send your son to die a brutal death for the great sinner down the street?

Please, let us LOVE intensely, lets put on the garment of HUMILITY, and honor our Savior, who also was fearful and begged the Father to take the prescribed "cup". Yet in the end He was obedient. No greater love, than to lay down one's life for a friend.
Let us spend more time praying, discerning, and serving, rather than debating time lines. How many hours have we wasted? How many souls have been permanently lost and already died due to our hours of such intense study, instead of working in the vineyard?

I hope that when the tough times arrive, that I will be ready to help those in need, and let them know the love of Christ and not be concerned about my safety. Yet, of this I am sure, if I have prayed and fasted, and am in the Mind of Christ, I know for sure that I will be doing what is needing to be done at the time. The Lord did say, "if possible, even the elect" will be led astray.

Shouldn't we all be praying for our salvation, and that of others? Didn't Paul say we had to make up for what was "lacking in Christ's suffering and death?"

Blessings and Peace to you all.

Anonymous said...

As "Anonymous" said 4 comments before this one, Amercica made its choice November4. A man who was hailed by many as our new messiah, and who never denied that label, was elected solely on his charisma and empty promises.

It is interesting to note that Elvis Presley, at the height of his fame, stopped a concert he was doing to answer a fan who yelled out "Elvis, you're the King!!" Elvis replied sternly, "I'm not the king. Jesus Christ is the King." Even Elvis knew that it was blasphemy to accept a title like that, but Obama did not have the humility or conviction to deny the "messiah" label. We are in a lot of trouble, as we have elected a leader that has fallen victim to the sins of pride and vanity, and who will not turn to God for help, and says that this Nation is no longer Christian; and no good will come from that. God's judgement is near. May he bless and keep all those who truly love him and keep his commandments. Love to you all, Brother Ira

Anonymous said...

In addition, the letter from Mrs. Billy Graham definitely is timely altho written in 1975.
http://apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/post/davem6.htm

I think that everyone would get something valuable out of her words.

boinky said...

actually a lot of Wilkenson's "Vision" have come true: bible believing students killed in high school, witchcraft being welcomed in schools that reject Christ, the welcoming of the homosexuals into churches, the neglect of children by parents who "do their own thing"...

He is also right about China hearing the gospel because of Asian outreach...and his prophecy that Russia and China will open themselves to Christianity while Christians in the west are facing increased government obstacles (we christian docs now face being forced into doing abortions and euthanasia).

By stessing the flashy part, you ignore many of the other warnings, including his stress on repentance.

And his "vision" was a long term prophecy: his chastisement was to come after all of the above happened.

He's not 100 percent because there are still prayer warriors and short term return to God can slow or stop chasetisement, as Jonah found outt.

Anonymous said...

I am ordinary housewife getting on in years and suffering from many ills and it doesn't take someone like Wilkerson to make me see the truth. When we watch the daily news,it is right before our eyes. I don't have a university degree but I can see with the eyes God gave me and the ears which help me hear the death throws of a nation that's gone from "in God we trust" to "if it feels good do it". Are we all clueless? I see it before my eyes and I pray each day to a God of Mercy to spare us all from the calamities that are about to fall. It IS GOING TO HAPPEN. How long do we think our God will put up with our baby killing, killing our old people who are no longer useful to society. Teaching our children about homosexual practises in the schools that we fund and the government using our tax money to further abortions in our nations while the blood of the innocence is crying out to heaven for JUSTICE. I see it, why can't you or is it that you close your eyes. IGNORANCE IS NOT BLISS. God knows your innermost thoughts. Are you prepared to meet Jesus? Like any minute now?
Marg. L

hartdawg said...

while it SEEMS america falls AFTER the rapture i am simply not sure. seeing what obama has been doing (he is not MY president, i am against everything he stands for) america can fall anytime.

Carter said...

It does look bleek Hart Dawg with our new OBAMANATION. WE must "fight the good fight" and stand for truth which is the Word of God. WE our being over taken by Liberalism.
WE can't just stand by while our schools are too afraid of being sued by the ACLU and they plant junk in our childrens heads. We as parents are continuing to lose our parental rights of our own troubled teens because we are Christians. I know this cause I have personally been dealing with it here in small town KY.
We are going to be persecuted more and more. But Christ said: "blessed are you who are persecuted for righteousness sake." He also said " Fear not for what you are about to suffer."
America is falling. Let us be prepared for everything Satan has to throw at us. Put on the whole armor of God. Pray without ceasing.

God Bless all of you!
Your Brother in Christ,
David From Kentucky

Sandra said...

With all due respect, as a Roman Catholic Christian, I find it very difficult to put trust into the prophesy of a man who by all rights is a good Christian, but refuses to acknowledge the truth of the Roman Catholic Church, and mostly, the truth of Jesus' true presence in the Holy Eucharist. I have to ask why would God take the time to reveal the future to this man, but fail to reveal the truth of his words in John 6:53-57 which say,

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me." and John 6:66-67 "After this many of his diciples drew back and no longer walked with him. Jesus said to the twelve, "Will you also go away?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life..."

All of us Christians have to ask ourselves if we are doing all that we can in God's will otherwise, we are as responsible for our nation's decline as anyone else. Is submitting to the authority of the Pope hard for you? I ask that you take a look at that and why. I ask that you read the early Church fathers and what they had to say about the Mass and the Eucharist. Be not afraid to be open to the possibility of what you might find.

Although I believe you are sincere in your journeys towards Christ, and I am thankful that you do believe, I pray that one day - just as Jesus did in John 17:20-26, that God may reveal to you the beauty, joy and truth of his presence in the Holy Eucharist. If we are headed for disaster I truly hope that it will bring about unity for all Christians and that we may all be as one and share in Christ's body and blood together.

Brendar said...

I am happy to report that The Holy Spirit is alive and well and making His presence felt in Rome City, INdiana in a very big way these days. This means that the Devil is also alive and up to no good in an effort to dissuade people like you and me from going to Rome City to pray and be closer to Our Lord Jesus.

Go to www.oltiv.org for the details.

Carter said...

With all do respect Sandra. How do you know that Bro. Wilkerson doesn't take communion at his church? I am a follower of Christ Jesus ,and I have never saw in Gods Holy Word that I should submit to the authority of a Pope. In fact Jesus says just a few verses before that which you had quoted that there is NO other way to Heaven but through Christ Himself.
You are right we do need to come together as Christians. But to bow down to a Pope or to confess to a priest for forgiveness is just not what Jesus taught. Jesus said: "No man can come to the Father (GOD) but by Me." Notice that he didn't say No man can come to the Father except by a Priest then the Pope and then through Me. No one can wash sins away but Jesus. Thank God for his sacrifice and His shed Blood for you and I. Jesus is the ONLY mediator. He is the only truth and the only way to eternal life.

There is nothing wrong about a watchman (Wilkerson) giving a warning. If a watchman had a vision from God to warn people of a coming calamity and didn't tell anyone then the watchman would have that same calamity on his own head. God said this in Ezekiel.

Resectfully,
David from Kentucky

Sandra said...

Carter or David? thank you for your discourse. I truly appreciate your charity. There is no other way to the Father but through Jesus Christ Son of the Living God. That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

I don't have the space to explain every reason why I believe the Catholic Church is the church of the Apostles which was initiated by Jesus, but I can urge you once again to read the writings of the early Church Fathers.
To your points:
Eucharist: On Bro. Wilkerson receiving communion I don't know, but I do know that it is not the same communion as is received in the Catholic Church. We believe that the bread and wine is actually changed into Jesus' real body, blood soul and divinity. The last I checked, besides the Orthodox Church, no other faith believes this. Communion is not seen as a symbol of Jesus presence, but as actually JESUS in the flesh.

Besides the passages of John I gave you, here are two quotes from 2 church fathers writing before 200 AD.

Ignatius of Antioch

"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Apostolic Succession:

Irenaeus

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).

"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).

Papacy: What of these writings from Tertullian?

"For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]" (Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]).

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

Confessing sins to a priest: Jesus said this to the apostles in John 20:21-33 "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23).

The Didache

"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

This is just a sampling and I have not done it justice, however if you stick to your views, how do you account for these early writings? Are they false?

Lastly, I might have a different translation, but could you point me to the verse in the Bible where Jesus commands us to use the written Bible and the Holy Spirit ONLY to guide us? If this is true, how did the Church survive before the Bible was assembled? The fact is that the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church over time to recognize and determine the canon of the New and Old Testaments in the year 382 at the synod of Rome, under Pope Damasus I. This decision was ratified again at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397 and 419). You, my friend, accept exactly the same books of the New Testament that Pope Damasus decreed were canonical, and no others. Do you discredit Pope Damasus I who also declared the following:
"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Thanks for your time.
God Bless You!

Carter said...

WOW Sandra, God bless you for your strong convictions on the early Church. I am not discrediting any early Christian “fathers” in any way. Most of them were killed for their Christian beliefs. What faith they had. They were called fathers because they were taught by the original disciples. Most of them were a bishop of a certain church. None of them claimed to be sin cleansers. We know that Jesus said we are to forgive one another and if we don’t we will not be forgiven. The other writings you talked about were not included into the canon. I believe that it was the Holy Spirit that inspired which books He wanted in the canon.

As for John 20:21-23 Jesus confers the same power on all the apostles. He gives to no one of them any special Authority. I believe the meaning of this passage is not that man should forgive sins that belongs to God Isaiah 43:23 but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, that they should be taught by the Holy Spirit to declare what terms to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness for sins.

I also believe that when Jesus says, He will give to Peter the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and on him He (God) will build His Church, He means that He will make him The instrument of opening the door of faith to the world and be the FIRST to preach the Gospel to the Jews and the Gentiles.

Irenaeus’s works have proved a valuable source of information on the Gnostics, because he gave accurate summaries of their beliefs before refuting them.
Justin said: "For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him.” Notice that he said “Doctrines delivered by God.” And Doctrines is plural.

As for me I was saved in a jail cell and it was Jesus that saved me and radically changed my life not any church or anyone doctrine, just His Love for me and saving grace. Now I have an opportunity to give a testimony of how God has changed me.

Gal. 5:18 and Romans 8:14 specifically mentions being led by the Spirit.

God Bless you in your walk with Christ,
Your Brother in Christ,
David in Kentucky

Sara said...

Sandra,
Dear sister in Christ. There are no religions or denominations in Heaven. We are the bride of Christ, not the bride of our church or our Pope or our religion or our ritual or our Priest or Minister.
I feel very sorry for you to be so weighed down with all that baggage. It's all about the Father and his son Christ Jesus. (Jesus is the Word John 1:14 and God sent His Spirit John 14:26)

Thats it! Thats all you need!

1Cr 3:18 Stop fooling yourselves. If you think you are wise by this world's standards, you will have to become a fool so you can become wise by God's standards.

1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, "God catches those who think they are wise in their own cleverness."

1Cr 3:20 And again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are worthless."

In Christ, Sara

Jan said...

I believe Ref David Wilkerson and here in the Netherlands. Other preachers are having the same visions. Me and my family are already beginning to stock food and other stuff we might need. Besides that it doesn't take extra energy to prepare and when things start to happen. We have time to pray etc etc. We dont have to think and run like crazy to get some food wich prob will be sold out. My advice first take it seriously secondly what harm will be done if you listen and prepare for you and your dear ones.

Carter said...

AMEN! Sister Jan. Being prepared. That should be the Christian way. To me that is the essence of prophecy and visons are for believers, Gods way of preparing us for what is about to happen.

Proud Parents of Halainah Grace said...

No such thing as the Rapture. Those left behind are the ones who are NOT saved. Look to Scripture to understand this. When questioned about the last days, Jesus tells us that it will be as it was in the days of Noah. Noah was LEFT BEHIND. While the flood took the others.

www.runboard.com/bshjihm

G.Gibson said...

Hi USA.
Its all quite interesting but theres nothing corresponding down here in Australia...not that I have heard. I think if a huge catastrophe is going to happen to the US some revelation will also be Given to prophets Down Under? Australia is connected to the US by strong christian fellowships. Surely God hasnt forgotten the spiritual links to the extent that the US gets revelation and we dont?
PS: Australia could get an invader in the 'endtimes' (maybe part of the KINGS OF THE EAST asian confederacy army).
Some interesting visions and prophecies are at http://whatwillbecomeofaustraliajackburrell.blogspot.com/
G.Gibson
Sydney

Sal said...

To my Australian brethren, Australia is just too cool a place for any jugdment to befall it! We love everything Australia here in the USA.

But seriously, looks like Wilkerson's vision is pretty much focused on New York City. The Tribulation will affect every country and person.

Anonymous said...

Hi Dr. Reagen,
Thank you for your continued gift to the Christian community for your balanced yet Bibical work.

As for the comment above from Billy: Call me a fool. I do not give any special status to Wilkerson's "visions". I think they are so general in nature that anyone could make the same predicitons withouut havings "visions". (Riots and fires in a nation possibly on the brink of financial ruin - how hard is it to predict that?)Billy, have you yet to read "The Vision" published in 1973?

We are there, he nailed it. We are short one major Eathquake at this point, and hang on after the goings on between Isreal and our current government this week...

Anonymous said...

And by the way, "Its all quite interesting but theres nothing corresponding down here in Australia..."

How's the drought situation going?
I don't know if you can confirm, but we are hearing of farmers commiting suicide after their land turns to dust, and people being charged for flushing their toilets?

Linda said...

I have read alot of comments about David Wilkerson. I pay attention to what he says but God's Word is what I read and put my faith in. I have been thinking lately (not because of Wilkerson), about stocking up because I think it is just good sense to do so. It seems the Holy Spirit is impressing me to do so. But I think the most important thing to do is to love the Lord with all your heart and soul and trust Him with everything this is coming. God bless you all

Mitchell said...

carter said, "You made the observation about Luke 21:28 which states: And when you begin to see these THINGS come to pass, look up...
You highlighted the word THINGS. But I believe the right word that should have been highlighted is BEGIN."


For your consideration, let's examine the words of Christ in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 21:25-28, "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars... At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Jesus says "When these things begin to take place" AFTER describing the cosmic signs that we are told happens immediately after the tribulation in Matt 24:29-31. Why did He not say "when these things begin to take place" before mentioning those post-trib events? This should be a significant clue for us.

A couple of verses later, in Luke 21:31, Jesus says "when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand", and again these things INCLUDE the cosmic signs and the coming of the Son of Man mentioned a few verses earlier.

Now let's look at Luke 21:34-36, "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, [referring to "that day"] and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

What day is "that day"? Jesus just gave us cosmic signs that Joel 2:31 tells us happens just BEFORE the Day of the Lord, but immediately AFTER the tribulation according to Jesus in Matt 24:29. "That day" is the Day of the Lord. It is the day of Christ's judgment, of His Divine Wrath - the "orge" that we as believers are not appointed to suffer. The Greek for "escape" in Luke 21:36 is ekpheugō (G1628) and is used elsewhere to refer to escaping the judgment of God (Romans 2:3). So how do we escape? Paul ties in the Day of the Lord with the gathering (rapture) in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, and tells us to watch for that day just as Jesus does in Luke 21:36. Since we know that the Day of the Lord takes place immediately after the tribulation, the escape -- and therefore the rapture -- is post-trib as well.