Tuesday, March 17, 2009

Timing Gog-Magog: The Battle

Nathan JonesPDFBy Nathan Jones

The Prophecies

A long 2,600 years ago the great Hebrew nabi Ezekiel unveiled the prophecy the Lord God had divulged to him concerning the future of the nation of Israel. Recorded in The Book of Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37, the prophet revealed that God would fulfill His promise to regather the Jewish people "from all the countries" (Ezek. 36:24) of the world where they had been dispersed and bring them back to the land promised to their forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Gen. 17:7; 1 Chron. 16:17-18; Ps. 105:8-11; Rom. 9:4).

Like dry bones reanimated into a living person, Israel did indeed become a nation once again on May 14, 1948, after nearly 1900 years since the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D and scattered the Jewish people across the globe. After all these centuries, this prophecy has been fulfilled in our modern generation!

God wasn't done unveiling the future of Israel to Ezekiel and the world, though, for the following two chapters portray a great trial for the newly established nation of Israel — the Gog-Magog Battle. Because of the unique characteristics and the great detail in which chapters 38 and 39 describe this battle, history shows the Gog-Magog Battle is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled.


The Details

The Gog-Magog Battle is set between a massive coalition of nations descended from Noah's sons Japheth and Ham against Israel (Gen. 10:2-7). The nations are from the territories of ancient Rosh, Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Gomer and Beth-togarmah. Their leader is called "Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal" (Ezek. 38:2-3). The battlefield is on the "mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate" (Ezek. 38:8). The purpose of the invasion is to "plunder and loot" and destroy the people of Israel (Ezek. 38:12, 16).

The end result of an invasion by such a seemingly invincible army on a seemingly unprotected Israel will surprise the invaders and shock the world. The invading nations are in truth being manipulated by God, pulled out of their lands as with "hooks in [their] jaws" (Ezek. 38:4), so that those nations can feel the "hot anger... [of] the Sovereign LORD" (Ezek. 38:18). God drags these specific nations to the "mountains of Israel" to "execute judgment upon him [Gog] with plague and bloodshed... torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him" (Ezek. 38:22). God's purpose of personally interceding using the supernatural destruction of so massive an army is not just its destruction, but "so I [God] will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD" (Ezek. 38:23).

By His supernatural victory in the Gog-Magog Battle, God reintroduces Himself to the world and declares in no uncertain terms that He is personally defending Israel. Should the peoples of the world doubt they only have to look on Israel who "will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up... for seven years they will use them for fuel" (Ezek. 39:9) and "for seven months the house of Israel will be burying them" (Ezek. 39:12) in the newly named "Valley of Hamon Gog" (Ezek. 39:11) by a newly built "town called Hamonah" (Ezek. 39:16).


The Leader

Ezekiel 38:2-3 gives the prophetic name of the leader of this coalition of nations: "Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal." Whether Gog is a real name like in 1 Chronicles 5:4 or is a title for a supreme position such as king or president remains to be seen. Whether Gog is the Antichrist or not depends on when one places the timing of the Gog-Magog Battle, which will be addressed later in this series.


The Nations

Ezekiel 38:1-6 gives the ancient names of the territories that comprise the invading nations in the Gog-Magog Battle: Rosh, Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Gomer and Beth-togarmah. If only Ezekiel had gone the extra mile and given the names of the invading nations contemporary to the battle, a lot of debate over their modern identities would have been saved. Never-the-less, God prefers students of Bible prophecy to do their historical research, and the following list of equivalent names is the fruit of that research.

  • Magog = Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan (and possibly Afghanistan)

  • Rosh = Russia

  • Meshech + Tubal + Gomer + Beth-togarmah = Turkey (and possibly Azerbaijan, Armenia)

  • Persia = Iran

  • Ethiopia = Sudan

  • Put = Libya (and possibly Algeria, Tunisia)

Noticeably absent from this list of Middle Eastern nations are those surrounding modern-day Israel, such as Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Gaza, the Arab nations and Iraq. Ezekiel 38:13 describes these nations as just observing, for many of them originate as "Sheba and Dedan [Arab nations] and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages." Why these nations are not also actively involved in the Gog-Magog Battle is open to speculation, but a Psalm 83 scenario where Israel has subjugated their surrounding neighbors previous to the Gog-Magog invasion so that they are finally in the peaceful situation Ezekiel describes (Ezek. 38:11) is the most likely possibility.

One glaring similarity among all the Gog-Magog invaders put in a scenario today is that all but Russia claim their national religion to be Islam. Islamic religious fervor to destroy the Jewish people would unite the fractious Muslim nations into a coalition which has never existed in this form before. The obsessive drive for economic wealth would be the draw for Russia to join in and lead this doomed coalition.


The Poll

The question of when the Gog-Magog Battle will happen was put to the reader in February's poll titled "When Will the Gog-Magog Battle Happen?" The 687 respondents cast their vote among a number of categories. The result showed a wide range of opinions as to when they thought this battle would occur in time. The results are as follows:

February Poll

The answer "Already Has" which 7 (1%) responded in the affirmative is incorrect. That the Gog-Magog Battle was fulfilled in Ezekiel's day by an invasion of the Scythians, Babylonians or Greeks fails to fulfill the roster of nations that compile the Gog-Magog invasion force. Also, it fails to address Ezekiel chapters 36-38 which prophesy a regathering of Jews to Israel from all over the world using the end-timing clues given as the "latter years" (Ezek 38:8) and "last days" (Ezek. 38:16). A past historical invasion just doesn't fit the Ezekiel 38-39 description.

Also, the answer "Never" which 37 (5%) voted for can be discarded as incorrect. A literal interpretation being replaced with a metaphorical interpretation that postulates that Ezekiel 38-39's description is somehow a symbolic struggle between good and evil is Replacement Theology spiritualizing. Prophecy fulfilled is always prophecy fulfilled literally, and the prophecy concerning the Gog-Magog Battle is no different.


The Series

The remaining answers each have their own pros and cons, and so each will be addressed more in detail in the following articles in this "Timing Gog-Magog" series. After identifying Rosh, different views will be categorized as General Timing, Before the Tribulation, During the Tribulation, and in relation to the Millennium. I'll end with my own view in a final analysis.

53 comments:

SeanOsborne said...

Nathan,

Excellent work. I was one of the 245 poll responders who selected "Before Tribulation."

I did so for one very important, and I believe key exegetical rationale.

Nowhere in Ezekiel 38 or 39 is there any mention of a Temple, or of Temple worship, daily sacrifice, etc. The Temple does not appear until Ezekiel 40 - after the War of Gog.Magog

We know there will be a physical Temple, with active Temple worship and daily sacrifice at a point no later than mid-point of the Tribulation.

Therefore a solid exegetical deduction would hold that by allowing time for the Temple to be physically constructed and the worship services to begin would place the War of Gog/Magog prior to the the start of Daniel's 70th Week (7-year Tribulation).

Anonymous said...

Nathan,

In Eze 38 all the nations involved are clearly stated literally, yet you claim Russia as Rosh. You are allegorizing the literal and I would like to see you quote your biblical sources for this claim. I have read the bible and no where do I see Russia named. Gog is a person Magog is a place, in fact it is located in upper northeast Turkey.

Rosh is used 598 times in scripture and defined as Chief, Top, Leader, ect but for this one and only time found in Ezekiel 38:2 - 3 You choose to make it a people or a place?

You are making assumptions based on incorrect information.

James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

Anonymous said...

Sean,

This was posted in a later post on L&L. I assume you did not read it.

Fourteen Reasons Why Ezekiel 38 & 39 Is Armageddon

(1) Not one statement in these two chapters (38-39) mention a war in Israel before Armageddon [or after].

(2) The battle of Armageddon is the only war predicted by the prophets that could possibly be referred to in these chapters (Ezek. 38:17). Armageddon is mentioned many times by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, and other prophets before the days of Ezekiel (Isa. 1:25-31; 3:25-26; 13:1-16; 24:21; 63:1-6; Jer. 25:30-33; 30:11,20-24; Joel 2-3; Oba. 1:15-21; Mic. 1:3-4; 2:12-13; 5:5-15; etc.).

(3) The destruction of Gog and his armies (Ezek. 38:18-23; 39:1-6,17-20) compares with similar statements about Armageddon in Joel 3; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21.

(4) Gog will not fall upon the open field until Armageddon (Ezek. 39:3-5; Rev. 19:11-21).

(5) The great supper for the fowls and beasts will only be at Armageddon (Ezek. 39:4,17-20 with Mt. 24:27-28; Rev. 19:17-21).

(6) The presence of God (as pictured in Ezek. 38:18-21; 39:1-6,17-24) will not be until Armageddon (Isa. 63:1-6; Zech. 14:1-5; Rev. 19:11-21).

(7) The supernatural destruction of Gog and his armies (as described in Ezek. 38:21-23) will not be until Armageddon (Isa. 63:1-6; Joel 2-3; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

(8) God will not magnify and sanctify Himself and set His glory among the heathen (as stated in Ezek. 38:23; 39:21-24) until He comes at the second coming of Christ -- at Armageddon (Zech. 14:1-21; Mt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21).

(9) Gog will not bring the many armies of the nations into Israel to be destroyed until the time of the second coming of Christ, at Armageddon, as referred to in Ezek. 38:18-23; 39:1-7 and proved in Zech. 14:1-5; Rev. 16:13-16; 19:11-21.

(10) The great earthquake of Ezek. 38:20 will not take place until the seventh vial and the second coming (Zech. 14:1-5; Rev. 16:17-21; 19:11-21).

(11) God's presence will not destroy Gog and his army until the second coming, at Armageddon (Ezek. 38:20; 39:2-7 with Zech. 14:1-5; Rev. 19:11-21).

(12) Gog and his army cannot be destroyed in a war in Israel before the second coming, at Armageddon, to fulfill Ezek. 38:18-23; 39:1-7,17-20, and then be destroyed again at Armageddon to fulfill Isa. 63; Joel 2-3; Zech. 14. We must therefore recognize all these passages as referring to the same destruction -- at Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-21).

(13) The burial of Gog and all his armies destroyed in the fulfillment of Ezek. 38-39 will be at the second coming of Christ (Ezek. 39:11-16 with Dan. 7:11; 2Th. 2:8-12; Rev. 19:11-21).

(14) It is at the second coming of Christ that God's glory will be set among the heathen and Israel will be completely gathered and blessed (Ezek. 39:21-29; Zech. 14; Mt. 24:29-31; Rom. 11:24-29; Rev. 19:11-21).

If I were you, stick with your military writing, you are lacking and wanting in your scriptural interpretations.

Nathan Jones said...

For clarification, the "Fourteen Reasons Why Ezekiel 38 & 39 Is Armageddon" was a comment posted by Mitchell on a previous article, not a post by Lamb & Lion.

SeanOsborne said...

Anonymous said...
Nathan,

In Eze 38 all the nations involved are clearly stated literally, yet you claim Russia as Rosh. You are allegorizing the literal and I would like to see you quote your biblical sources for this claim.


Would the Blue Letter Bible work for you "Anonymous"? I pulled this from the online Strong's Concordance link to "Treasury of Scripture Knowledge":

"Rather, ""Gog (the prince) of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal."" By Magog is most probably meant the Scythians or Tartars, called so by Arabian and Syrian writers, and especially the Turks, who were originally natives of Tartary; and by Rosh, the Russians, descendants of the ancient inhabitants on the river Araxes or Rosh.

You might also wish to Consult this map.

SeanOsborne said...

Nathan,

Thanks for the clarification. As suspected it was more eisegesis from Mitchell.

hartdawg said...

i think gog is a demon. just like prince of persia, prince of greece so we have prince of rosh. as for rosh being russia read the descriptions. "land of the north" THE REMOTE PART OF THE EARTH im sure that Nathan will go into more detail in this series (not to put you on the spot) a few weeks ago i sent you a question about who gog is. i wont mention your answer on this post in case you are planning to explain it later in this series but i sort of disagree but i am not entirely sure. i thing he is a principality over that region but having said that you may be correct but i am not sure.

Anonymous said...

hartdawg, this is probably out of topic but Michael Heiser has some interesting ideas regarding "powers and principalities". I think you could be right about Gog - he is a demon - but also may represent the territory or domain that he governs.

BTW Heiser is orthodox and was/is a consulting scholar for the NET Bible.

son of thunder said...

I've got to go with SeanOsborne on this one. I never had noticed that there is no mention of a temple in Jerusalem in Eze. 38-39, and I've read it countless times. It's not so much a matter of what is in the passage, but what is not.

Mitchell said...

SeanOsborne says, "Nowhere in Ezekiel 38 or 39 is there any mention of a Temple, or of Temple worship, daily sacrifice, etc. The Temple does not appear until Ezekiel 40 - after the War of Gog.Magog"

Sean, I am surprised that you used this argument again. In Zechariah's context of Armageddon there is no description of a temple either, so using your logic you would have to conclude that the war that Zechariah describes is not Armageddon either.

Ezekiel 39:7 says in no uncertain terms that Israel is restored to Messiah after the Gog-Magog battle: "So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One IN Israel."

Please read these two points very carefully.

First, building a temple and conforming to the old Law and reinstating sacrificial offerings does not bring Israel into any spiritual reconciliation with God whatsoever. Paul makes this explicitly clear in Galatians 5:1,4, calling the old Law the "yolk of bondage" and that anyone who attempts to be justified by the old Law is estranged from Christ and falls from grace! Therefore, in order for Israel to know the Holy One IN Israel per Ezekiel 39:7, they must know Christ.

Notice the words of Ezekiel 39:29, "Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD."

In order for the Lord to no longer hide His face from them any longer He pours out His spirit upon Israel. When does this happen? According to Zechariah the Lord does this when Christ returns after the tribulation and destroys the invading armies at Armageddon:

Zechariah 12:9-10, "And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn."

Messiah is physically present, and the world shakes at His presence. This is explicitly stated in Ezekel 38:20, saying, "So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my PRESENCE, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground." Will this be done before the tribulation? Will Israel be restored before the tribulation? If so, then what is the point of the tribulation if Israel is already restored to Christ??

Second, Ezekiel 40 is in a different context and focus from Ezekiel 38 & 39. Just look at the first verse, "In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth [day] of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither."

Ezekiel was not seeing some rebuilt tribulation temple to be constructed on the Temple Mount. In fact, Ezekiel "describes in great detail a temple in Israel that is much too large to fit on the present Temple Mount site. The Temple of Ezekiel proper measures about 875 feet square, and it sits in the middle of a large consecrated area. Ezekiel's temple is also very different in many details from any previous temples that have existed in Israel (or elsewhere). Therefore most Bible scholars believe there will one day exist in the Holy Land a Fourth or 'Millennial' Temple... According to many Christian Bible scholars, the Fourth Temple (Ezekiel 40-45) will be 'memorial' - a teaching center apparently to instruct men about the holiness of God and proper worship during the coming kingdom of Jesus on the earth. As sinful men and women continue to be born into the world in the millennium, the temple is supposed to remind everyone of the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross, as the 'Lamb of God,' some two thousand years earlier."

If you want to insist that Ezekiel's temple is sequential to the Gog-Magog war, then you should therefore acknowledge that the Gog-Magog war in Ezekiel is in fact Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation since Ezekiel's temple is indicative of some type of "Millennial Temple" and is unlike any other temple before it.

http://www.templemount.org/ezektmp.html

Indeed, the forces of Gog-Magog definitely culminates at Armageddon when God draws them to be destroyed. When we approache Scripture we need to shed ourselves of preconceived theories and bias, for this can often only serve to inhibit a proper understanding of the text. To say that Gog/Magog is not Armageddon one must ignore numerous verses which in turn creates serious theological and textual problems.

Anonymous said...

Gog and Armageddon are not the same war. It is simple to see if you read Ezekiel 38, 39 and compare it to the battle of Armageddon. People that claim that they are the same war also say that Gog is the AC.

1. Gog is buried in an literal grave.

2. The AC is not killed at the battle of Armageddon, but is thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the False Prophet, while they are ALIVE.

Therefore Gog is not the AC.

The Gog/Magog War is also described as happening after the 1000 year reign, although i think there is some evidence that this war also occurs either right before the Tribulation or immediately after it starts.

This indicates that Gog is a demonic spirit that inhabits a person at two different times. Once before the 2nd coming and once at the end of the 1000 years.

Anonymous said...

Nathan,

I have a question: If Gog Magog happens before the tribulation, then does this mean that the rapture cannot happen untio after this event? Does this not to a degree nullify the doctrine of immanency?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous asks...I have a question: If Gog Magog happens before the tribulation, then does this mean that the rapture cannot happen untio after this event? Does this not to a degree nullify the doctrine of immanency?

I am not an expert on this topic, but am pretty familiar with it. I believe what Nathan meant by "Before Tribulation" was "Before Great Tribulation" which begins 3.5 yrs into Daniels 70th Week or "The 7 Year Tribulation"... Just my take...

Mitchell said...

Anonymous said, "Gog and Armageddon are not the same war. It is simple to see if you read Ezekiel 38, 39 and compare it to the battle of Armageddon. People that claim that they are the same war also say that Gog is the AC.

1. Gog is buried in an literal grave.

2. The AC is not killed at the battle of Armageddon, but is thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the False Prophet, while they are ALIVE."


Hi Anonymous, I am curious to know what your definition of "cast alive into the lake of fire" is. Can you please provide it?

Remember Korah in the book of Num 26? Could we describe that Korah and those with him were cast alive into the lake of fire? Numbers 26:10, "And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign."

Num 16:33, "They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation."

Let's look at what Scripture tells us regarding the demise of Antichrist:

Daniel 11:45 says, "And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him." Look where Daniel describes the Antichrist coming to his end -- between the seas and the glorious holy mountain.

Dan 8:25 says, "...he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

2 Thess 2:8 says, "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" -- But doesn't Revelation say he is cast alive into the lake of fire?

Rev 19:20, "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Dan 7:11, "I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame."

Why the apparent contradictions? The truth is, in God-breathed Scripture there are no contradictions. I believe that what we are told regarding the destruction of Antichrist indicates that when Christ returns the brilliance of His coming and the power of His voice apprehends Antichrist, causes the ground to open up and swallow him alive, casting him alive into "a lake of fire." Where does this happen? According to Daniel 11:45, "between the seas and the glorious holy mountain" is where Antichrist comes to his end. Ezekiel 39:11 says "On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east toward the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog".

The burial places are the same. The valley of Megiddo is the place that Hamon gog will be, which is based on the valley of the passengers. This is an easy route for travel from the Mediterranean Sea to Jerusalem through the valley of Megiddo, which is where Armageddon will take place.

The Gog-Magog battle culminates at what we know as Armageddon, where Christ destroys Antichrist.

hartdawg said...

anonymous, i am not speaking for nathan but i think i can answer your question. there is an interval of time between the rapture and tribulation, bear with me a moment in the middle of the tribulation isreal flees antichrist so it must happen 3.5 years BEFORE the tribulation (i believe and nathan can and hopefully will correct me if wrong) BUT it can still happen AFTER the rapture for the following reasons 1. god is dealing with the nations in judgement a senerio AFTER the rapture 2 gods attention is turned to isreal again a senerio AFTER the fullness of the gentiles i.e. the rapture 3 the imminent factor. does this answer your question? we'll see later on in this series of posts. i for one plan on coming to the library every day to read them

Mitchell said...

One more thing if I may:

Anonymous wrote, "People that claim that they are the same war also say that Gog is the AC"

Aside from the numerous clues in Ezekiel 38 and 39 (Christ physically present at the end of the battle, Israel restored to Messiah, God's Holy Name sanctified and known in the eyes of the nations, the casting down of mountains, sending of hail-fire-brimstone upon the invading armies, feeding their bodies to ravenous birds, etc. etc.), notice something that the Lord says to Gog in Ezekiel 38:17. Here He is asking a very specific question: "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?"

The Lord is speaking directly to Gog here -- "he of whom I have spoken". It is indisputable in searching through all of the other books of the prophets that the Antichrist is referred to many times by many names, but here in Ezekiel is the only place in the Bible we have a reference to a prince called "Gog". So, if God's servants the prophets of Israel "prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee (Gog) against them" then Gog and Antichrist have to be the same person. The only person the other prophets prophesied about invading Israel in the Last Days was Antichrist.

The prophets elsewhere referred to Antichrist as:

"the Assyrian"
"the King of the North"
the "Prince that shall come"
"the Beast"
"the Son of Perdition"
"that evil one"
"a wicked counsellor"
"the beast"
"the king of Babylon" etc.

And now, thanks to Ezekiel, we can also refer to him as "Gog" and "the chief prince."

Anonymous said...

Also, if Gog is Russia, then I ask anyone to show me anywhere else where the prophets talk about Russia. Yet God says that the former prophets spoke of him.

son of thunder said...

Anon, unfortunately, we don't have every single Hebrew document ever penned. Many have been lost to time and wars. One example would be references to the book of the wars of the LORD (Num 21:14). We've never seen these books. As far as I know, there have never been any copies found.

For all we know, Rosh and his descendants were mentioned in these books.

Hope that helps in some way.

Anonymous said...

Son of Thunder,

The Word of God is absolute truth; PERIOD!

To say that Russia could have, might have, sorta been mentioned in some other book is to border on the "adding" to of Scripture.

The feeble argument you make here is exactly the type of shallow argument that has caused me to get my Bible out and do the research myself.

When I was first presented with the Eastern leg possibility, I too fell back on the tired ol traditions of man until I was asked some very pointed questions I could not answer; much like your dilemma here.

People need to stop pandering after their favorite teacher and read the Bible for themselves.

Mitchell, Joel and many others have given excellent Scriptural support for their Eastern leg possibility.

Yet those supporting the Western leg have resorted to name calling, insulting, relying on the traditions of man and their favorite author/teacher; or the big one "it is a non issue" when confronted with solid Scriptural evidence for the Eastern leg to be given at the very least consideration.

You need to know what you believe, but more importantly WHY you believe it.

Do you believe the Western view because that is what you have read in all the books and commentaries you have read?

Do you believe in the Eastern view because that is what you have read in all the books and commentaries you have read?

Regardless of which way you believe if you cannot support it with solid Scriptural support then you should be back in your Bible until you can!

son of thunder said...

Anon, have I at any point insulted someones point of view on this subject? Have I slandered or libeled anyone? Maybe some have, but I have not.

I do not agree with any one person, no matter how educated or how many letters they have after their name. I go the Bible, God's inerrant Word.

I am not taking sides. I am mature enough to say, in front of God and everybody, I do not know. No one, but God Himself, knows. There are valid points, in my opinion, for both Western and Eastern views.

I am not adding to Scripture. When asked where else it was Rosh written about, I gave an example of maybe. Maybe. Did you look? I did extensive searches of "Rosh" on online Bible sites. I looked through various Bible programs I have on my computer. I looked in commentaries and concordances. At most "Rosh" is mentioned four times in Holy Scripture.

This book of the Lord's wars is mentioned in Numbers, which makes it a valid historical document. Something that Moses had READ and was making reference to. And if Moses could take it as literal, God breathed literature, then I think it's safe to say that I could reference a reference.

Anonymous said...

Son of Thunder,

I was not saying that you have insulted others, but many here have. I also was not trying to single you out per se.

As for the other book you mentioned, it may have been plenty good for Moses, but when we start talking about lost books mentioned in the Bible being potential sources for our reasons behind what we believe we get ourselves into dangerous territory.

The Word of God does not mention Russia. Someone in history decided to translate Rosh as Russia and now it is taught as if it is fact.

All I am getting at is we need to know what we believe and WHY we believe it.

Where do our beliefs originate? The Bible or someones book that interprets the Bible for us.

There are two views here and as long as one is pushing the Western leg view everything is fine.

Yet when the Eastern view is supported Scripturally it turns into a name calling free for all with some (not you).

We should all be good Berean's

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

son of thunder said...

And, as I've said before, I don't care if the antichrist is Pee-Wee Herman. The antichrist can not be revealed until the Holy Spirit is removed, and the church along with Him. So, yes, to me it is a non-point.

The Tribulation believers will know for sure whether antichrist is from the eastern leg or western, as will the Hebrews. Then either Mr. Richardson or whoever, or Dr. Reagan or whoever will be vindicated.

But to me, it's useless bickering that does absolutely nothing to expand God's Kingdom here on earth. Nothing. It. Is. Useless.

son of thunder said...

If you read carefully, my post, I just use that book as an example. I've never read it, so I don't know what's in it, so I get no spiritual enlightenment from it.

But as for Russia never being mentioned, there are several translations which include Rosh in Ezekiel 38-39. A word study of "Rosh" shows that 1)they became the Scythians who lived north of the Black Sea; 2)that the name "Russia" comes from several tribes of that region who went by names such as Ros, Rus, Rush, and so on; 3)the descendants of Meshech settled along the Volga river right about where modren day Moscow now sits, in fact the Douay-Rheims Bible translates Meshech as Mosoch, an older name for Moscow.

Gideon said...

Son of Thunder,

Anon is a follower of Joel Richardson and they hold the belief that Russia plays no part whatsoever in the Gog and Magog War and that Gog and Magog is Armageddon.

To me that is equivalent to turning a blind eye to the news you can look at daily of the strengthening of ties between Russia, Turkey, Libya, and Iran.

We know that Gog has a hook put in his jaw to draw him out, so his ultimate goal is different than the Islamic nations involved in the invasion. The wealth that Gog would obtain by invading Israel didn't make much sense for a long time, to me, because all Israel has is some land. But, with the find of the enormous natural gas deposit it all fell into place! Russia is basically the only supplier of natural gas to Europe and now they are going to have to compete with Israel in the very near future.

son of thunder said...

Then, Gideon, maybe I helped to open his eyes to the truth and the role Mother Russia plays in the end times.

Personally, I can't keep up with all these anonymous people. Are they all different people, or one guy who talks to himself. Names would be nice.

son of thunder said...

If you thought the natural gas deposit was something, wait until they strike oil.

Anonymous said...

Mitchell,

Thanks for your response. I will study some more and see if i can make the connections.

I will have to do a word study and see what "comes to his end" means, whether it is death or just mean he was defeated but not killed.

There is a lot lost in the translations from Hebrew and Aramaic. The original text will reveal much more. ;)

Put a Sock in Joelstrumpet.com said...

The best explanation (it's a 14-page Word doc) for why the Gog/Magog war is NOT Armageddon is at this link...

http://tinyurl.com/cy6rhr

Gideon said...

If the followers of a Muslim AC eschatology accept that Gog and Magog is not Armageddon, then, it changes their whole view on end times prophecy. This is why they will not take the time to compare and contrast, look at the evidence for Rosh being Russia, and evaluate the news coming from these countries.

They believe that Isaiah 17, Psalm 83, & Ezekiel 38 & 39 are all Armageddon, all one war. There is nothing in scripture that confirms this view.

son of thunder said...

Actually, Scripture contradicts that view. Isaiah 17 only mention Damascus, Syria. - Muslim

Psalm 83 mentions the nations which specifically bordered Israel at that time: Modern day Jordan, Gaza, Lebanon. - Muslim

Ezekiel 38 mentions nations which are further away: Iran, Turkey, Russia, Ethiopia, Lybia. - Muslim or going Muslim

And Armaggedon mentions "the Kings of the East" and all the other nations, which are even further out. - Not Muslim

son of thunder said...

Here's are some interesting articles about islamic growth.

http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2007/10/29/is-islam-the-fastest-growing-religion-guess-again/

http://mitm.piquant.us/000098.html

Islam is corroding from the inside out.

Gideon said...

Son of Thunder,

Great article!

D'Souza states: "Islam is growing mainly through reproduction"

Very true!

One thing that is rarely discussed is that Christianity is the only religion you cannot be born into. You can be raised in a Christian household by Christian parents, but that does not make you a Christian. Only the individual makes the decision to accept Christ and become a Christian. Christ cannot be forced upon you, rather, it is a personal acceptance for any Christian. No other religion in the world is set up this way.

son of thunder said...

And as the Word is broadcast via satellite, the internet and radio into these nations, people are realizing that Islam is an oppressive 5th century totalitarian regime. And they are leaving Islam by the thousands everyday

For the first time they are hearing that God loves them and died for them. Not them having to die and take a bunch of people with them to go to paradise.

That's why these nations are working so hard to block these transmissions.

Mitchell said...

son of thunder,

Prophecy is Israel-centric and Middle East-centric. The growth of Christianity in non-Islamic portions of Africa and parts of Asia is splendid, but look at what is happening in the Middle East.

I believe, too, that Islam will be destroyed, but this will only happen at the Second Coming of Christ, and not before. We need to face facts when it comes to the current situation with Christians in the Middle East. Christians are dwindling rapidly, due to increasing persecution as Islamic radicalization increases, low birth rates, and emigration as thousands upon thousands of Christians leave the Middle East in droves. The Christian population right now is being desolated and are today in the midst of increasing tribulation which shows no signs of slowing down.

Christians are Leaving the Middle East - "... emigration of Christians continued in the second half of the 20th century, due to armed conflicts, economic hardship or persecution... When they hear that Sharia law needs to be introduced, which basically means that Christians cannot testify in court as equals, that they are inferior - this is something that is very hard for any minority in the world, does not matter if they are Christians or not - very hard to understand or to accept in the 21st century, which is about tolerance and is about modernity. That's why we've had millions of them get up and flee to other parts of the world, where they don't feel threatened." http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-01/2006-01-17-voa55.cfm

Disappearing Christians in the Middle East - "... Christians are fleeing from all over the Middle East. Emigration began in the aftermath of World War I and has greatly picked up in the last decade. In Turkey, Christians constituted a population of 2 million in 1920 but now only some thousands remain. So severe is the problem that the Orthodox Patriarchate in Istanbul is in danger of collapsing for lack of large enough pool of candidates. Christians earlier in this century represented about one-third of the Syrian population; now they account for less than 10 percent. In 1932, they composed 55 percent of the Lebanese population, now less than 30 percent. More than half the Christians of Iraq have left. Copts began leaving Egypt in significant numbers after the 1952 revolution." http://www.danielpipes.org/1050/disappearing-christians-in-the-middle-east

Rise in radical Islam last straw for Lebanon's Christians - "Christians are fleeing Lebanon to escape political and economic crises and signs that radical Islam is on the rise in the country. In a poll to be published next month which was exclusively leaked to The Sunday Telegraph, nearly half of all Maronites, the largest Christian denomination in the country, said they were considering emigrating. Of these, nearly a third have submitted visa applications to foreign embassies. Their exodus could have a devastating effect on the country, robbing it of an influential minority which has acted as an important counter-balance to the forces of Islamic extremism." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1547313/Rise-in-radical-Islam-last-straw-for-Lebanons-Christians.html

Christian groups in PA to disappear - "The ever-dwindling Christian communities living in Palestinian-run territories in the West Bank and Gaza are likely to dissipate completely within the next 15 years as a result of increasing Muslim persecution and maltreatment, an Israeli scholar said Monday." http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1195546795874&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

O, Muslim town of Bethlehem - "The town's Christian population has dwindled from more than 85 per cent in 1948 to 12 per cent of its 60,000 inhabitants in 2006. There are reports of religious persecution, in the form of murders, beatings and land grabs." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-423126/O-Muslim-town-Bethlehem-.html

The Christian Exodus from the Middle East - "Throughout the entire Middle East, once significant Christian communities have shrunk to a miniscule portion of their former robust selves. In 50 years they may well be extinct. What happened? Why has there been a great – and little reported -- Christian exodus from the Middle East, with some 2 million fleeing in the past 20 years alone? Why have perhaps fully half of all Iraqi Christians clandestinely emigrated in the last 10 years? Why have hundreds of thousands of Egyptian Copts left their homeland, with the famous Antioch community collapsing from 15,000 Christians a couple of decades ago to a mere handful today? The single greatest cause of this emigration is pressure from radical Islam." http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/christianme.html

Christianity's empty cradle? Relentless pressures drive Christians from the Middle East - "The anti-Christian rioting in Maghar is not unique; neither is the failure of the authorities to offer protection. All over the Middle East, Christians are under pressure. The situation varies from country to country, but the conditions that permitted them to coexist with their Muslim and Jewish neighbors in the modern Middle East for the last 80 years are fast eroding under pressure from militant Islam and the U.S. war on terror." http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_18_41/ai_n13499535

Iraq’s Christian Exodus - "Targeted by all sides, Christians must choose to leave, or stay and face death. Twenty years ago the Iraqi Christian population was estimated to be 1.4 million. The Department of State reported there were almost 1 million in early 2003. U.N. sources claim the figure to be 700,000. Two years after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, it was estimated that 40 percent of the refugees fleeing Iraq were Christian, deliberately targeted in Iraq. There were 20,000 Christian families living in the Dora neighborhood of Baghdad before the liberation of Iraq. Today, there are only 3,000 families. Most are only partially intact, as members of those families were killed, displaced to other areas in Iraq or fled the country. One in four Christian families living in the major Iraqi cities has left. A religious cleansing is taking place as Muslim extremists either demand that Christians convert to Islam, and send daughters and sisters to convert and marry a Muslim man; or, worse, force families to leave or be killed." http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjFlZTIyYjZjYjk1NmZhZTc2MmUxNzJjZmI4ZTI0MWI=

All my staff at the church have been killed - they disappeared - "“All my staff at the church have been killed,” he said. “They disappeared about a year ago and we never saw them again. Of the rest of my congregation, most say they have been targeted in some way or have had letters delivered with bullets in them. People forget, or the Islamic groups don’t realise, that Christianity was in the Middle East before them and therefore they see Christians as being part of the Western coalition military presence. Things have got considerably worse since the Iraq war.” Tensions have also increased elsewhere. In Syria one Christian Assyrian said that he was planning to emigrate to Canada because of growing Islamic fundamentalism in a society having to absorb huge numbers of Iraqi refugees. “I do not feel at ease any longer and I do not want my two sons to live in this polarised society and atmosphere,” he said." http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1264111.ece

I can go on and on and on and on AND ON AND ON. The trend that we are seeing today in the Middle East, and at an ever increasing rate, is that Christian populations are dwindling to levels never seen before in history. Radical Islam is on the rise and shows no signs of slowing down. This is fact. Yes, Islam will be destroyed, but as Scripture shows us it will be when the Wrath of God is poured out at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, when He is physically present on the earth at the end of the Gog-Magog war.

Here are a few statistics:

Turkey's Christian Population
1920 - 15%
Now - 1%

Syria's Christian Population
1920 - 33%
Now - 10%

Iraq's Christian Population
1970 - 5.8%
Now - 2.6%

Jerusalem's Christian Population
1922 - 53%
Now - 2%

Bethlehem's Christian Population
1948 - 85%
Now - 12%

Palestinian Territories Christian Population
1950 - 15%
Now - 2%

Jordan Christian Population
1970 - 5%
Now - 3%

Let's look at what Christians face in Egypt, for example. "Christian converts and members of minority religions suffer daily discrimination in Egypt, which restricts their access to work, education, travel and healthcare... Every Egyptian over 16 years old must have an ID card which mentions religious belief... 'Interior ministry officials apparently believe they have the right to choose someone's religion when they don't like the religion that person chooses' ... an ID card is required for the most basic needs in Egypt -- to open a bank account, get a driver's licence, obtain a pension cheque, enrol at school, get a job, and even for childhood immunisations... While there are around 2,000 Bahais in Egypt, Muslims who convert to Christianity account for many more and their treatment is often harsher as they are considered to be apostates, which some Muslims see as punishable by death."

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=26836&sec=59&cont=3

son of thunder said...

Mitchell, we've been over this again and again. Sorry, whatever you're selling, I ain't buying.

I do not agree with your exegesis or whatever. Or your hermanutics.

I you knew me, then you would know that when people start using 50 cent words, I start to ignore. If it can't be said in common English, it's probably not worth hearing.

Mitchell said...

son of thunder,

There was no exegesis or hermeneutics in my previous post, those were taken directly from news articles speaking about the horrible situation that Christians are facing in the Middle East and how things are getting worse, not better.

I'm not sure what you mean by 50 cent words. Could you please explain?

son of thunder said...

What I mean, Mitchell, is with your excessive use of words, many of them large and unwieldy, you turn people off from your overly dogmatic arguments.

Somehow, everyone (virtually everyone else who visits, including Dr. Reagan who has decades of study under his belt) who disagrees with you is automatically wrong no matter how good an argument they put out there.

People are turned off by your lengthy articles (they are not comments, they are articles) which basically say, "I went to school to learn this so you're wrong."

I'm sorry, but your "comments" come across as arrogant.

Gideon said...

Nameless,

You said;
"To say that Russia could have, might have, sorta been mentioned in some other book is to border on the "adding" to of Scripture."

According to your logic we are doing the same thing by placing Iran as Persia, or Iraq as Babylon. There is historical data to prove these areas are the areas spoken of in the Bible.

To deny Russia is Rosh you have to throw out a lot of research and archeological evidence. You have to throw out the archeological findings of Scythians in Russia encased in Russia's museums. You have to turn a blind eye to the economic union currently being formed by Russia to include Turkey, Libya, Iran, and Sudan.
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/9676440.asp?scr=1 - Notice some of the other countries involved, they have long been speculated to be involved in the Gog Magog invasion.
http://www.cacianalyst.org/?q=node/4832
http://en.afrik.com/article14820.html
http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article29659

To deny Rosh is Russia, you have to turn a blind eye to the major natural gas find Israel has recently announced. Russia is the only major supplier of Natural gas to Europe, now they will have a fierce competitor!

Ezekiel 38:13 will say to you, "Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?" '

The natural gas deposits is the plunder he (Gog/Russian dictator) comes for. The AntiChrist does not attack Israel for an economic plunder, he invades to wipe the Jews out of existance, that is his plunder. While Gog wants to wipe them out too, he has an ulterior motive. Gog has to have a "hook put in his mouth" and a though put in his head by GOD. The AntiChrist will not need a "hook" or a thought from GOD, he is Satan in carnate at that point...

The next thing you have to throw out if it is not Russia, is the undisputed fact that Russia is the main arms supplier to all of the listed nations. In fact, the listed nations could not pull off an invasion successfully without Russian arms. This group of invading nations will be a nuclear armed invasion, and Russia is the country that supplies and has the nuclear capability of pulling this off.

Ezekiel 38:13 Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? - This is a rhetorical question GOD is asking Gog. Think about the very fact GOD is asking the question, if it is undisputed that he is the AntiChrist, there would be not need to include this in scripture. GOD is saying to Gog, you are not the one I have spoke of, you may think you are, but you are not. Look at Russia's recent actions, they act like the World Super Power, but they are far from it, their leaders are arrogant. This is the reason for the question.

Ezekiel 38:15 You will come from your place in the far north - If this was just Turkey or one of the nations around the Black Sea, the Israelites would not have considered this the far north. They knew of people farther north than this in what is now Russia, and you don't get any farther north than Russia.

Before Israel can accept Christ as their savior the Old Testament covenant between GOD and Israel must be reestablished and this will be the event that triggers this awakening.

Mitchell said...

Sorry you feel that way son of thunder. I did not learn any of this in college however (back then I don't think many people thought Islam to be much of a danger). I had never considered much of what I am now sharing here until I started researching the beliefs of Islam to be more effective in witnessing to a couple of Muslim associates that I worked with. It was then that things started to open up and make much more sense to me with respect to the eschaton. Pieces of the Last Days puzzle finally started to fit like they never did before. Prior to this, when I tried to make things fit according to my own understanding, there were too many problems.

I know I can be wordy sometimes, but I try (hopefully) to give the best response I can to explain my view, which sometimes requires more than just a sentence or two. :/

hartdawg said...

VERY WELL SAID GIDEON

loki said...

Very good points, Gideon.

Mitchell said...

Gideon said, "The natural gas deposits is the plunder he (Gog/Russian dictator) comes for. The AntiChrist does not attack Israel for an economic plunder, he invades to wipe the Jews out of existance, that is his plunder."

Let's look at what Ezekiel 38 says regarding their motive because, as you've acknowledged, it is more than just to plunder. Ezek 38:12 says "I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations..." Sound like Antichrist? Yes, it does. In addition to obtaining a spoil Gog also wants to destroy the people that now inhabit the land.

Why? I think we can find a clue to this in Daniel.

According to Daniel 11:39 the Antichrist wants to "divide the land for gain." The Islamic nations that come up against Israel all believe that the land belongs to Muslims only, and not Jews. As far as plunder is concerned, I think the Antichrist will surely want to do to Israel what he will do to Egypt by gaining "control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches" (Dan 11:43). Booty is encourage and is a "religious right" in war according to Islam. God draws all of the nations with Gog to the valley to be destroyed. At Armageddon God gathers the surrounding nations to the valley to be destroyed. These are separate descriptions of the same event.

As for Ezekiel 38:17, if Gog was not Antichrist there would be no need for God to even ask the question. Let's look at how a couple of other translations render Ezekiel 38:17:

NLT - "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: You are the one I was talking about long ago, when I announced through Israel's prophets that in future days I would bring you against my people."

NIV - "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them."

MSG - "A Message of God, the Master: Years ago when I spoke through my servants, the prophets of Israel, wasn't it you I was talking about? Year after year they prophesied that I would bring you against them. And when the day comes, Gog, you will attack that land of Israel."

NIRV - The Lord and King says to Gog, "In the past I spoke about you through my servants, the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them.

TNIV - This is what the Sovereign LORD says: You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them.

The answer is yes, he is. It is a clue for us and an extremely important one. The only person the former prophets spoke of in the last days coming against Israel is Antichrist. Nowhere in Scripture is there a description of a war before Armageddon with such utter destruction, because there isn't one, and the only reason that I see why some put Gog-Magog before Armageddon is because they try to fit it into a preconceived idea by trying to find "differences" and ignoring extremely significant clues and similarities. To say that the absence of certain details is therefore proof that Gog-Magog does not culminate at Armageddon is not a good way to read this in my opinion, especially when there are so many very important similarities. There are many details missing from Zechariah or Joel for instance, but are they all therefore speaking of individual battles? I don't think so.

God calls it "that day." Look at Ezek 38:19, "For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: 'Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel."

We see God's wrath in that day. What day is that? Let's look for more clues. In Revelation 6:12,17 we read "...he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood... the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" According to Jesus, these cosmic signs happen immediately after the tribulation, which is when the day of His wrath comes (Matt 24:29). This is Armageddon.

Here is something else for your consideration ...

Ezekiel 39:7-8, "So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One IN Israel. Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken."

If what God says above "is done" and that He is the Holy One IN Israel, then He is IN Israel and does not need need to "do it" again. If God says it's done, then it's done. However, those who believe that this is not Armageddon must believe that the restoration of Israel is not done, because Armageddon hasn't happened yet.

This happens when the Lord pours out His spirit upon Israel, per Ezekiel 39:29, "Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD."

When does this happen? According to Zechariah 12:9-10, "And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn."

So in Ezekiel 38-39 we read that Christ destroys all the surrounding nations that come up against Jerusalem, proves to the world that He is God, is physically present as the Holy One IN Israel, and pours out His Spirit upon Israel.

In Zechariah, Christ destroys all of the surrounding nations that come up against Jerusalem, is physically present in Jerusalem for those to look upon Him, and He pours out His spirit upon Israel.

Separate descriptions of the same event -- Armageddon after the Tribulation.

Ezek 39:8 "Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken."

Blessings ...

son of thunder said...

Mitchell, I apologize for being abrasive. You are entitled to your opinions just like the rest of us.

I've been having a rough go of it lately; God has been testing my faith and I buckled and unfortunately it kind of came out right then.

I hope there are no hard feelings.

Mitchell said...

Never hard feelings my brother, I pray that God's will be done in your life and that your faith be strengthened in both the best of times and the worst of times ...

Gideon said...

Mitchell,

You aren't going to "educate" or change my mind.

Your belief in a Muslim AC is just not scripturally sound.

The reason why you stick to your guns that Ezekiel 38-39 is Armaggedon is because it completely ruins your Muslim AC eschatology, and you would have to admit you are wrong.

The very fact that Satan does not require a "hook" in his mouth or economic plunder and he is the AC in carnate kills your theory, period. Also, if this is Armageddon, why is Sheba and Dedan protesting...??? They should be gathered against Israel, Saudi Arabia would love to see Israel disapear. Besides, Psalm 83 states they will be there, and your view is these two prophecies describe the same war.... Also, Babylon would be mentioned. Ezekiel would not have left Babylon off of the group of attacking nations...

Nowhere in Ezekiel 38 & 39 does it state that the Lord (Jesus) will touch down on the Mount of Olives. Ezekiel 38 states: I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I show myself holy through you before their eyes. & I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Did GOD not make himself known or show himself through the Israelites and Moses when Pharaoh and the Eqytians were chasing them through the split Red Sea?

You didn't even address any of the modern evidence mounting that points to Russia as Rosh, you only have your opinion on scripture, which you are entitled to have, but I'm an educated person and you aren't going to educate me in any way.

Sal said...

Great point, Gideon, about the Arab nations sitting on the sidelines not making any sense if it was only the Muslim world verses Israel at Armageddon.

Mitchell must enjoy the verbal punishment to his questionable theories. Keeps us all on our toes, though. Love ya, Brother Mitch! :)

Mitchell said...

Gideon says, "Your belief in a Muslim AC is just not scripturally sound.

The reason why you stick to your guns that Ezekiel 38-39 is Armaggedon is because it completely ruins your Muslim AC eschatology, and you would have to admit you are wrong."


Hi Gideon, I firmly believe that a Muslim Antichrist is very Scriptural. Considering the behavior and actions of Antichrist and the Beast, and considering the nations with him at Armageddon, it is increasingly apparent in my opinion that the Bible describes this leader as one who is Islamic.

Why is it that when many Muslims who convert to Christianity and read Revelation for the first time that they identify Antichrist with Islam almost immediately?

I believe that Ezekiel 38-39 culminates at Armageddon because of the significant clues that the text gives us regarding the identity of Gog their leader, the supernatural destruction of the invading nations at the end of the battle, and the explicit restoration of Israel to God their Messiah when He pours out His Spirit upon them (Zechariah notes this as happening only at Armageddon).

Gideon says, "Also, if this is Armageddon, why is Sheba and Dedan protesting...??? They should be gathered against Israel, Saudi Arabia would love to see Israel disapear. Besides, Psalm 83 states they will be there, and your view is these two prophecies describe the same war"

I think the answer to this is very simple. Consider the following: Remember, for the first 3.5 years on Daniel's 70th week there is peace between Israel and her Arab neighbors when Antichrist "confirms the covenant with many" (Dan 9:27), and I think it is during this time that Israel feels they are finally at the point where they can remove the walled barriers that is protecting their cities, towns and villages (Ezek 38:11) against terrorist attacks. During this time of 'peace', however, many of the Islamic nations of Antichrist will have already begun conspiring together to attack Israel. After Antichrist reveals his true colors in the middle of the week, this is when all hell breaks loose and shortly thereafter I believe this is when the Gog-Magog war begins and it lasts until the armies are brought to Megiddo and destroyed by Christ at His Second Coming.

At the beginning of the war there will be a few Muslim nations who are questioning it because they know that, judging from former battles, Israel will not be an easy foe to contend with. (Perhaps some may be more "western friendly"?) In Daniel 11:40-42 we know that some nations who resist Antichrist will escape his hand, while others will come under his control. Let's have a look:

Dan 11:40, "At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm [them], and pass through."

So here we have Antichrist attacking other nations in the region that do not join him and/or recognize his authority for some reason. These are likely Islamic nations that he overwhelms and passes through. Those that he conquers will have no choice but to give their authority over to him.

Dan 11:41-42 "He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape."

So Antichrist attacks other countries and overthrows some of them, but not all. Jordan escapes his rule for some reason. I think that during the initial attack upon Israel is when a large number of Israelis leave the country to find safety.

Now, some believe that Micah 5:2-6 mentions seven nations that Christ will rise up and bring to the defense of Israel during this time who will drive out Antichrist at first. Verses 5-6 read, "And this [One] shall be peace. When the Assyrian comes into our land, And when he treads in our palaces, Then we will raise against him Seven shepherds and eight princely men. They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria, And the land of Nimrod at its entrances; Thus He shall deliver [us] from the Assyrian, When he comes into our land And when he treads within our borders."

The initial attack against Israel will be more successful than some of the other questioning Muslim nations thought possible, and many Israelis would have now already fled the country after the initial attack by the Islamic coalition. Other Islamic nations will view Antichrist's strength and eventually decide to join his ranks (perhaps they were threatened to be attacked?), even if he is forced out initially. Perhaps some of them will also begin to believe that he is the promised "Mahdi" as others believe, or his actions will hasten the appearing of the Mahdi. I don't know exactly how this will all unfold yet. I'm sure many will view all of the events as a part of their own "Islamic eschatology" however and a golden opportunity to join the fight before their "Judgment Day".

Looking at Ezekiel 38:4 and 39:2 there are indications that Gog has already been to Israel before. Let's look at 38:4, "I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords." The Hebrew word "shuwb" (H7725) means "to return" or "to turn back" and is used in both 38:4 and 39:2. Why would God say that He would turn them back if they haven't been there before already? I don't know what it is that God does to cause them to return, perhaps Antichrist is able to obtain significant reinforcements after initially being repelled, and/or those who came to Israel's defense have now left. But the fact remains that something happens and God draws them back, this time to be destroyed.

When God brings them back to Israel for destruction at Armageddon Christ returns and brings upon them a great earthquake, hail, and confusion where they start killing one another.

Earthquake:

Ezekiel 38:19-20, "For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: 'Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel"

Revelation 16:18, "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

And great hail:

Ezekiel 38:22, "And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone."

Revelation 16:21, "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

God bring confusion upon them and they start killing one another:

Ezekiel 38:21, "And I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains, says the Lord GOD. Every man's sword will be against his brother."

Zechariah 14:13, "It shall come to pass in that day That a great panic from the LORD will be among them. Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor, And raise his hand against his neighbor's hand"

Their bodies are fed to animals:

Ezekiel 39:4-5, "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD."

Revelation 19:17-19, "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great."

It is evident that Christ's Second Coming will destroy these armies and save Israel where they are restored to Messiah forever. As Ezekiel 39:8 says:

"Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken."

Gideon says, "Nowhere in Ezekiel 38 & 39 does it state that the Lord (Jesus) will touch down on the Mount of Olives. Ezekiel 38 states: I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I show myself holy through you before their eyes. & I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Did GOD not make himself known or show himself through the Israelites and Moses when Pharaoh and the Eqytians were chasing them through the split Red Sea?"

This is quite a bit different and Ezekiel does not have to say that Christ will touch down on the Mount of Olives. Zechariah already provides that detail. Ezekiel does have Christ physically present IN Israel at the end of the Gog-Magog battle -- 38:18 says that the land will shake at His presence, and 39:7 calls him the Holy One IN Israel. Show me another place in Scripture where the Lord declares He is the "Holy One IN Israel". In fact, it even says that His Holy Name will be known "in the midst of my people". The only way to deny that He is not physically present is to try and make this battle separate from Armageddon.

Gideon says, "You didn't even address any of the modern evidence mounting that points to Russia as Rosh"

I think that it is problematic. Personally I don't care who "Rosh" is, it makes no difference in my opinion. I'll quote the following:

"If Rosh is Russia, I have but one question: One common denominator in the argument over the Gog and Magog story is that everyone at least agrees that Gog is Prince of Meshech and Tubal. No serious historian would argue that Meshech and Tubal are not in Turkey. If we go with the translation that Gog is “prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal” are we then to say that Gog rules both Russia and Turkey?

You might want to counter that Gog could indeed be the chief over this whole confederacy. But apart from the fact that these two nations have warred against each other from time immemorial, why didn’t the Bible then give him the title of “prince of Rosh, Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Phut, and Cush”?

Gog is of the land of Magog, a very specific place, and he is the ruler of his domain;

“Meshech and Tubal,” which must be associated with Magog. All these are given for locators and are not intended to lead us into a wild goose chase or a genealogical and historical puzzle.

THE RUSSIA ERROR

It is actually far simpler than some make it. The error of the Russian theory arose from the Scofield Study Bible, which identifies Mesheck and Tubal with the modern Russian cities of Moscow and Tobolsk. The only basis for this interpretation is the somewhat similar sound of the two words. Thus: Meshech sounds like Moscow, and Tubal sounds like Tobolsk. However, one cannot simply take a word from an ancient Semitic language (in this case, Hebrew) and find a correlation to a modern name from a drastically different language (in this case an early form of Scandinavian) simply because the two words “sound the same.” While this may be convincing to some for the sole reason of phonetics, it is very irresponsible hermeneutics.

Tim LaHaye for example explains the reason that we may know that Ezekiel 38 and 39 “can only mean modern-day Russia” is because of “etymology,” that is, by studying the origin of words. If phonetics is the yard stick to prove where Gog comes from, then Meshech fits best with the ancient Moschi / Mushki far better than it does with Moscow. Likewise Tubal fits far better with the ancient Tubalu peoples than it does with modern Tobolsk, especially because the two locations were well known regions of Asia Minor in Ezekiel’s day. There is no need to look any further. Even Mark Hitchcock admits that Mesheck and Tubal are in modern Turkey, or possibly in parts of southern Russia and northern Iran. Yet Hitchcock chose Russia for Rosh and Turkey for Meshech and Tubal."

Link

God bless ...

Nathan Jones said...

For the archeological and historical reasons why Rosh is without a doubt Russia, see Identifying Rosh in this series.

Mitchell, bite-sized, Man! I want to have the time to read everything you write. Good stuff!

Mitchell said...

Hi brother Nathan, am trying to keep it as short as possible, believe it or not that was the shortened version! :)

God bless ...

son of thunder said...

THAT was the Reader's Digest condensed version?!?! Hoo boy. Haha!

Halleluja!

Mitchell said...

Yes, Reader's Digest, great little magazine for the restroom!

son of thunder said...

Got'cha

Lisa said...

Nathan, thank you. I've been looking all over trying to figure out what God wants to tell me/us etc.... I asked Him the other day to help me understand whats going on and clear as day..."read Ezek" I did. Not much help (I'm more of a Is,Ps, Dan, Rev..gal). I appreciate all of the posts - but it was yours that has helped to place me "where" in Ez I need to be. Thanks again