Wednesday, March 18, 2009

Timing Gog-Magog: General

Nathan JonesPDFBy Nathan Jones

In this series of articles called Timing Gog-Magog we are looking to the Bible to discover when the great battle the prophet Ezekiel described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is going to take place.

To recap, the Gog-Magog Battle involves a coalition of nations led by a ruler from the ancient lands once covered by the former Soviet Union and modern-day Turkey which consist of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Russia, Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Libya, and possibly Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Algeria and Tunisia. They are united in their fervor to loot and destroy Israel. The invading coalition comes to the mountains of Israel to discover not an easy victory, but a setup by God who utterly destroys them with violent weather. The supernatural defeat of the invading hordes reveales to the world that God is real and indeed protects the nation of Israel. Israel spends the next seven months burying the dead invaders and seven years expending the leftover fuel and weapons.

We have already addressed the possibility that the Gog-Magog Battle never will happen and dismissed that view for its blatant spiritualization of the Scriptures. We've also dismissed the view that the battle already happened some other time in Israel's past history because no such battle has yet happened that fits the Ezekiel 38-39 description of nations.

For our study of the remaining views of when the Gog-Magog Battle could take place, we're going to utilize what I believe is the best written book on the subject — Northern Storm Rising by Dr. Ron Rhodes. Dr. Rhodes is the president of Reasoning From the Scriptures Ministries, author of over 40 books, and was the Bible Answer Man before Hank Hanegraaff. Personally, Dr. Rhodes is an overall great guy who I had the pleasure of co-interviewing for the upcoming April "Christ in Prophecy" television shows on answering tough questions. Dr. Rhodes is an expert on the Gog-Magog Battle, and his book excellently lays out each timing view's pros and cons.


General Timing Clues

While there is debate on the specific timing of the Gog-Magog Battle, the student of Bible prophecy can be positive about the general timing. General timing is clearly spelled out in Ezekiel's account as events that must happen to set the stage for the battle.

1) The first general timing clue is Ezekiel's use of the terms "latter years" (Ezek 38:8) and "last days" (Ezek. 38:16). The Gog-Magog Battle must happen in the prophetic scheme of the end times as it relates to the nation of Israel. The key verse to understanding what these terms mean is Deuteronomy 4:30 which reads, "When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the LORD your God and obey him." "Distress" is also translated as "Tribulation." It is the Tribulation of Daniel's 70th week that brings the Jewish people as a nation back into the belief in God, and later to accept Yeshua as their Messiah. The Tribulation leading up to the Millennial reign of Christ is what the Old Testament prophets consistently and repeatedly taught about. And so, we can know from these key phrases that the Gog-Magog Battle happens in relation to the Tribulation and Millennial Kingdom.

2) The second general timing clue was discussed in the rejection of the claim that the battle already happened in history. Never in the history of the Middle East have the nations described in the coalition been united in an attack against Israel. In no time has such a specific group of nations been destroyed by inclimate weather. And, in no time in history has Israel named a valley Hamon Gog (Ezek. 39:11), nor the adjoining town called Hamonah existed where the Jews buried the invaders. History just does not show such a battle has ever happened, which only leaves a future timing for it to occur.

3) The third general timing clue is given in Ezekiel 36 and 37 — the regathering of the Jewish people back into their homeland "from all the countries" (Ezek. 36:24) of the world. Like the dry bones reanimated into a living person that Ezekiel envisioned, Israel did indeed become a nation once again on May 14, 1948, after nearly 1900 years since the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D and scattered the Jewish people across the globe. After all these centuries, this prophecy has been fulfilled in our modern generation. Because this prophecy has been fulfilled and Israel is a nation once more, that piece of the set-up is in place for the prophecy concerning the Gog-Magog Battle to begin.

4) The fourth general timing clue involves the developments nationally that have to occur to make the nations of the coalition unite in an invasion of Isreal. Two factors have made this coalition possible today. The first is the religion of Islam uniting these nations in satanic hatred of the Jewish people. The second is the economic bounty that Israel now has with its revitalized land and newly discovered gas deposits. Today, the nations of the coalition are united in the single purpose of destroying Israel and plundering its wealth. The daily news is resplendent with stories in support that this general timing clue has been fulfilled in just the last few years.

5) The fifth and only unfulfilled general timing clue is given in Ezekiel 38:11 which reads, "You will say, 'I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people — all of them living without walls and without gates and bars.'" Israel must be living without walls, peacefully and unsuspecting of an attack. Israel today lives in constant fear of attack and is always prepared for an invasion by the 60-plus million hostile Muslims surrounding their borders. Because of this most unpeaceful climate, this part of the prophecy cannot have yet been fulfilled. Perhaps a Psalm 83 scenario where Israel has subjugated their surrounding neighbors previous to the Gog-Magog invasion so that they are finally in the peaceful situation Ezekiel describes is the most likely possibility.


With general timing pointing to the fulfillment of the Gog-Magog Battle in relation to the Tribulation and Millennial Kingdom, we will try to pin down a more specific timing in the next installment of this series called Before the Tribulation.

32 comments:

Paul said...

I am following Nathans blog with great interest. I keep asking "when will Israel ever consider themselves to be at peace?"
The 3.5 years between their agreement with antichrist and the abomination would seem to fit the bill. I really enjoy reading David and Nathans blogs, keep them coming.

hartdawg said...

hi paul
the problem with that is it takes 7yrs to burn the weapons for fuel but isreal flees in the middle of the "week" there are however a number of senerios that could still play out, 1 of them being the cleanup goes into the millineum and there is e verse that says they will beat their weapons into plowhooks but it seems more likely to happen between the rapture and tribulation

hartdawg said...

p.s. ron rhodes book is excellent. i recommend reading that alongside bill salus'book isrealstine. i consider them companion books and i consider bill salus a great scholar. i hope he writes more prophecy books. if he already has i wanna know where to find them. the same with ron rhodes

son of thunder said...

I have no doubt that the Gog/Magog battle takes place before the Rapture of believers, but if we take the burning of the weapons for fuel as meaning the Israelis WILL be using the fuel for seven years, then this battle could be up to 3.5 to 7 years before the peace treaty which gives birth to the Tribulation.

I also find it interesting that the Israelis need the fuel. Hal Lindsey points out that the invading army uses horses. Why? He seems do believe that at some point before the attack, Iran launches a nuclear-tipped rocket that explodes at 180-200 miles above the earth's surface creating an electro-magnetic pulse, thereby crippling the Israeli military and creating the need for YHWH to step in and rescue His chosen people.

The commentary can be found here: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89476

SeanOsborne said...

Paul said...
"I am following Nathans blog with great interest. I keep asking "when will Israel ever consider themselves to be at peace?""

Paul,

Consider that in the aftermath of the Pslam 83 war (which foretells of the total defeat by Israel (i.e. the IDF) of all the opposing military forces in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt), that Israel will no long have a state of perpetual war nor have to endure the existence of the present islamic terrorist threats from within. In the aftermath of this war Israel's boundaries will be very much like those of King David's Israel.

Billy said...

Nathan,

You wrote "...but a setup by God who utterly destroys them with violent weather."

Please give a Bible reference that points to that conclusion (thanks).

I thought their destruction would be of some EXTRAORIDINARY supernatural spectacular that would leave no doubt it was from God. If it is from nature (though still supernatural) it could be explained away. A cable network (Natl Geo?) did a show explaining away all the plagues and the parting of the Red Sea to explainable causes of nature.

That said, could weather (supernatural and spetacular) be the cause of destruction whereby the Jewish people would know it was God yet the rest of the world would explain it away to weather?

After all, most people have already swallowed Global Warming causing large scale destruction. Could that be it..."ah, it wasn't God, it was Global Warming!" Could I be on to something?

son of thunder said...

Billy, what the Bible describes could only be attributed to the God of Abaraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There will be a massive earthquake that levels mountains along with a torrential flooding rain, massive hailstones, fire and brimstone falling from the sky (See Ezekiel 38:20, 22). There is absolutely no way that anyone with half a brain could say, "Oh, that. That was global warming." Even though I'm some will.

This will an Old Testament kind of event, the likes of which no one has seen for over 2,000 years.

Billy said...

Thanks, thunder. Though honestly, if you had seen that program I reference you would not be surprised if a secular world does it's best to write off this as caused by "mother earth" instead of God.

son of thunder said...

I have seen plenty of those shows, Billy, and they get funnier every time I watch them. My favorite is where they claim the Hebrews crossed the Red Sea in 6 inches of water, which makes it an even greater miracle, since God drowned the mighty Egyptian army in 6 inches of water.

Another I saw claims (again at the Red Sea) that Moses (or someone) stood behind the Hebrews and held a candle or torch and thereby blinded Pharaoh from what was going on.

My point is, if it's on NatGeo, History, or Discovery, the main goal is to try to debunk the Bible. (Notice, they never try to debunk the Qu'ran or any other religious writing). This is what so-called scientists do. They try to explain away God because they know that there is a God and they are answerable to Him (Romans 1). So, using their logic, if they don't admit there's a God they are no longer answerable to Him. Out of sight out of mind.

That's why I said people with half a brain. People who are honest with themselves will have to admit something beyond the natural has happened in Israel on that fateful night. This is why there be a return (I think) to temple worship in Israel: They know it is God who saves them.

Billy said...

Thunder, thanks for the clarification. Your statement "So, using their logic, if they don't admit there's a God they are no longer answerable to Him. Out of sight out of mind" makes sense to me and explains a lot!

Hart, glad to see your back!

son of thunder said...

Don't thank me, Billy. Thank God. I just took what the Apostle Paul penned under inspiration from the Holy Spirit and paraphrased it a little.

But, rest assured that one day very soon, God is going to re-reveal Himself to the world in a big, big way. He already reveals Himself through nature, but we ignore that and give chance and time the credit.

As Darryl Waltrip says, "It's about to get 'citin', boys."

Anonymous said...

It is truly amazing to me how people stubbornly refuse to acknowledge God. In addition to the miracles that have been "explained away" as others here have pointed out, I'm always amazed that it is only the Lord's name that's taken in vain. Why don't you ever hear someone "blaspheming" Buddha, Allah, Mohammad, or some other god (which is really no god at all)? It's because this is an attack by the devil on the one and only true God! All those others are in league with Satan!

Gog-Magog will certainly be an eye-opener, and I hope many many people are saved because of it!

Paul said...

"Israeli Gas Find Tips Energy Balance
The discovery of a major natural gas field off the coast of Israel could help make the country an energy exporter" Quote from Business Week.

Another possibility, After a war that well may be nuclear resulting in the total destruction of Damascus and the northern areas of Israel, Israel may well be the owner of the world's energy supplies. Sure would be tempting to Russia.

Mitchell said...

Sean Osborne says, "Consider that in the aftermath of the Pslam 83 war (which foretells of the total defeat by Israel (i.e. the IDF)"

You are doing what you constantly accuse others of doing Sean - adding meaning to the text that isn't there. It is quite clear in Psalm 83 that any defeat will be accomplished by the hand of God, not Israel. Where is it in the text stating that it is Israel who will be the ones defeating the Islamic nations? The answer is nowhere, because it isn't there.

Psalm 83:13-17, "Make them like tumbleweed, O my God, like chaff before the wind. As fire consumes the forest or a flame sets the mountains ablaze, so pursue them with your tempest and terrify them with your storm. Cover their faces with shame so that men will seek your name, O Lord. May they ever be ashamed and dismayed; may they perish in disgrace."

And here's the kicker - Psa 83:18, "Let them know that you, whose name is the Lord-- that you alone are the Most High over all the earth." This will only be accomplished during the Second Coming of Christ when He destroys the invading Islamic coalition of nations. Besides, if Israel were the ones to defeat them again these Islamic nations still would not know that the God of Israel is the Most High. They didn't get it in 1948, they didn't get it in 1967, and another loss wouldn't change their minds a third time either. They would make up more excuses again. Only a supernatural destruction will convince them.

Zech 12:9, "And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." This is Armageddon, when God gathers all of the surrounding nations to be destroyed and show the world that He is God.

Zechariah 14:14 "... and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance."

Zechariah 12:2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling..."

Joel 3:11-12 "Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the surrounding nations."

Ezekiel 28:24-26 "'No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned against them. THEN THEY WILL KNOW that I am the LORD their God.'"

Anonymous said...

Excellent post Mitchell!

Gideon said...

Mitchell,

You conveniently left out the first portion of Joel 3; here it is from the NIV text, notice the difference in translation? Notice Joel 2:3???

The Nations Judged
1 "In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. [a]
There I will enter into judgment against them
concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,
for they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.

3 They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine
that they might drink.

4 "Now what have you against me, O Tyre and Sidon and all you regions of Philistia? Are you repaying me for something I have done? If you are paying me back, I will swiftly and speedily return on your own heads what you have done. 5 For you took my silver and my gold and carried off my finest treasures to your temples. 6 You sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks, that you might send them far from their homeland.

7 "See, I am going to rouse them out of the places to which you sold them, and I will return on your own heads what you have done. 8 I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, a nation far away." The LORD has spoken.

9 Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war!
Rouse the warriors!
Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.

10 Beat your plowshares into swords
and your pruning hooks into spears.
Let the weakling say,
"I am strong!"

11 Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
and assemble there.
Bring down your warriors, O LORD!

12 "Let the nations be roused;
let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
for there I will sit
to judge all the nations on every side.

13 Swing the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe.
Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full
and the vats overflow—
so great is their wickedness!"

14 Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near
in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and moon will be darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.

16 The LORD will roar from Zion
and thunder from Jerusalem;
the earth and the sky will tremble.
But the LORD will be a refuge for his people,
a stronghold for the people of Israel.

Mitchell said...

Hi Gideon, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, so I'll need you to explain it to me please.

The verses that you posted are all pointing towards Armageddon -- The Day of the Lord - when Christ gathers the armies from the surrounding nations and destroys them. Joel 2:31 says "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." Notice the cosmic signs given by Joel that happen before the Day of the Lord and when this happens according to Christ. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Mat 24:29). When Christ punishes these nations, then they will know that the Lord is God (Ezekiel 28:26).

Gideon said...

Mitchell,

I realize you were speaking of Armageddon, but you are of the mind set that the nations gathered are only the Islamic enemies of Israel. These nations gathered are not just the surrounding nations. They are the nations of the WORLD.

Joel 2:3
2 I will gather ALL nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. [a]
There I will enter into judgment against them
concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,
for they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.

Which nation removed Israel as a nation and spread the Jews out among their enemies? That is right, that would be Rome.

Where were the bulk of these Jews spread? Yes, Europe.

Rome will be judged on this day.

Psalm 83:
You say that this war is a part of Armageddon and that these nations are subdued supernaturally by Christ himself.

Psalm 83:9 Do to them as you did to Midian

83:11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna

While there is no doubt GOD was involved subduing the Midianites and its leaders, GOD did have an instrument carry out their defeat in Gideon and his 300 Israelites! -Judges 8

Psalm 83:13 Make them like tumbleweed, O my God, like chaff before the wind. - In other words they are going to be scattered and lose their lands. - Read Psalm 35 here, David says basically the same thing and asks GOD to join him and turn the tide on his enemies.

Psalm 83:17 May they ever be ashamed and dismayed; may they perish in disgrace. - In other words, not all of this force will perish in this war, they will die later and when they do die they will die in disgrace.

I don't see anything here that leads me to believe this is the judging of all nations by Christ at Megiddo.

son of thunder said...

Gideon, I'm glad you elaborated, because I was little confused myself. Now I see where you were going and I had actually thought of some of those arguments myself.

Mitchell said...

Gideon, I understand your point, however what I see in the whole context of Psalm 83 is God's judgment where He makes them "confounded and dismayed forever" and puts them "to shame and perish that they may know that You, whose name alone is the LORD, are the Most High over all the earth." This does not sound like Israel winning a few wars with her Arab neighbors. They have already done this time and again, but the Arabs still do not acknowledge YHWH. I believe that this is God's judgment of the surrounding nations once and for all at Armageddon where Ezekiel 28:26 says Christ inflicts "punishment on all their neighbors who maligned against them. THEN THEY WILL KNOW that I am the LORD their God.'"

Moreover, Joel 2:3 is not saying literally all nations on the planet. I believe this is a misconception and it contradicts what Joel wrote in Joel 3:11-12 "Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations." Joel, like Zechariah, would not say all of the nations on the planet in a wooden literal sense, and then contradict themselves by turning around and saying just the surrounding nations. What they are saying per the context is that God will gather all of the surrounding nations, and Ezekiel agrees by calling them "malicious neighbors." Today they are all Islamic. Besides, I think that common sense should tell us that it is a logistical impossibility for literally all nations on the planet to surround Jerusalem.

The "nation" that attacked Israel and scattered Israel is not what the focus should be per se, but rather according to Daniel 9:26 "the people of the prince that shall come" should be our focus. During the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD the legions that were responsible were comprised mostly of Assyrian soldiers. Though they were considered Roman because they answered to Rome, the people were Assyrian. Some do not like this fact and try to argue against it, but they are only arguing against known historical facts.

As for the bulk of the Jews, outside of Israel most live in America, not Europe. In fact, more Jews live in the United States than in France, Canada, the UK, Russia, Argentina, Germany, Australia, Brazil, Ukraine, South Africa, Hungary, Mexico and Belgium combined. And these countries have the highest Jewish populations outside of Israel and the US. Even if we were to added up the total number of Jews in every member country of the European Union the US still has twice as many. All nations will be judged, but according to Scripture not all nations of the planet will surround Jerusalem at Armageddon.

hartdawg said...

hi mitchell
for a detailed account of psalm 83 might i recommend isreastine by bill salus? it is an excellent book. i dont think lamb&lion has it available but it is well worth the read.

Sal said...

By Armageddon there won't be too many people left on the planet, so many will be killed over the 7years.

Plus, "all the nations" means their representative armies, and hardly every man, woman and child from each nation. I've seen the Valley of Jezreel, and Man it is huge!

son of thunder said...

Over 3 billion people will die in 3.5 years. I can't even imagine that kind of carnage.

But, it would be possible to have every person on earth in the valley. It's said that you could fit the entire population of 6.6 billion in, I think, Brewster county Texas, USA. It's standing room only, but mathematically it's possible.

Mitchell said...

I think we would all agree that there is a big difference between individual people themselves and every nation on the planet and their armies replete with tanks, armored personnel carriers, jeeps, tankers, etc. etc. etc. It is logistically impossible for every nation on the planet to surround Jerusalem. Fortunately, the Bible interprets itself for us and tells us that it is all of the surrounding nations only.

Gideon said...

Mitchell,

Yes it will be ALL nations, again, I will point to Joel 3:2 & 3:12 & Rev 19:19 - it doesn't state some kings or surrounding kings, it states THE KINGS of THE EARTH and their armies.

You plain and simply just don't take some of the verses of the Bible at it's word. The Bible is the word of GOD, and if GOD says it will be ALL nations, then, it will be all nations! Your comment above reminds me of a comment made by Joel Richardson on his site where he claims that Nebuchadnezzar did not actually hold dominion over the planet even though the Bible specifically states otherwise.

You said " As for the bulk of the Jews, outside of Israel most live in America." True, but not before the 1850's. I wasn't speaking about current populations, I was speaking of when Rome took the Jews into slavery; 70 AD.

Mitchell said...

Gideon says, "Yes it will be ALL nations, again, I will point to Joel 3:2 & 3:12 & Rev 19:19 - it doesn't state some kings or surrounding kings, it states THE KINGS of THE EARTH and their armies."

What you are reading there are examples of a figure of speech known as a synecdoche, and the Bibles uses this figure of speech quite often. Consider the following examples from Scripture:

Daniel 2:37-38, "Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold." Did Nebuchadnezzar rule all of Asia, and the natives of North and South America? We know the answer is no and all recorded history will prove this.

Daniel 2:39, "And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth" Did Greece rule over the people of Japan, the aboriginals of Australia? India? The text says that the kingdom "shall bear rule over all the earth", but we know that the Grecian kingdom did not rule the whole literal planet. This is a fact.

Dan. 7:23, "Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces." Many here believe this to be the Roman Kingdom, correct? However, per Daniel it was to conquer the whole earth, but this never happened. This is a fact. If you read this literally then the verse cannot be true.

We are again looking at a part for a whole, or a whole for a part - a synecdoche. It is only talking about that part of the world, not the whole planet.

Let's look at more examples:

Matt. 3:5-6, "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." If we read this verse literally it would be saying that every single person in all Judea and all around Jordan were baptized and were saved. Again, a synecdoche.

Luke 2:1-3, "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city". We know that Caesar never taxed the whole planet. This is a fact that we cannot deny.

Acts 2:5, "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." Do you believe that men out of every nation on the planet were present on the day of Pentecost?

Romans 1:8, "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." Was the Gospel preached already to the whole planet in the first century?

Romans 10:18, "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Same question as above.

Colossians 1:23, "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister." Was the gospel was preached to donkeys, house flies, lizards, and mice? We cannot take this literally, I'm sure you would agree.

We need to pay attention to figures of speech in Scripture. If we take everything in a literal wooden sense we will arrive at a conclusion that the text did not intend, including the verses pertaining to the Antichrist.

Revelation 19:19, "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

The "earth" is from the Greek word "ge" (G1093) and it does not necessarily have to mean the earth as a whole. It also means "a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region". When we read that Zechariah, Joel, Ezekiel call the nations at Armageddon the "surrounding nations" or "malicious neighbors" and allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, then we begin to understand that the nations with Antichrist are not all nations on the literal planet, but rather all of the surrounding countries in the region.

Gideon said, "You said " As for the bulk of the Jews, outside of Israel most live in America." True, but not before the 1850's. I wasn't speaking about current populations, I was speaking of when Rome took the Jews into slavery; 70 AD."

"In the year 70 AD the Roman army destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple under Titus Vespasian. This was the fulfillment of a prophecy given to Daniel 500 years earlier which stated that the people of the prince that will come, i.e. the Antichrist, would destroy the city and the sanctuary. (Daniel 9:26). Because the Roman army fulfilled this prophecy, many conclude that the soldiers who participated in that particular invasion were European Romans. History tells us that the legions that invaded Jerusalem were:

Legion 10 Fretensis:
Legion 15 Apollinaris:
Legion 12 Fulminata:
Legion 5 Macedonica:

These Legions all came from Syria and Josephus writes that the Roman army recruited Syrians as soldiers for their local legions...

'On 14 April 70, during Passover, Titus laid siege to Jerusalem. To the northeast of the old city, on Mount Scopus, the legions XII Fulminata (a new addition from Syria) and XV Apollinaris shared a large camp; V Macedonica was camped at a short distance. When X Fretensis arrived from Syria, it occupied the Mount of Olives, in front of the Temple.'

Note that the four specific legions that invaded Jerusalem came from Syria, i.e., the Syrian province of the Roman empire, again, not to be confused with the modern Syrian Arab Republic. Were the Syrians of the first century AD Assyrians as the Syrians of the second century BC who were Hellenized Assyrians? I writing about the Assyrian Identity in Hellenistic and Roman Times, Simo Parpola, Helsinki says

'In the second century AD, two prominent writers from Roman Syria, Lucian and Tatian, ostentatiously identify themselves as Assyrians (Assúrios). This self-identification is commonly misinterpreted to imply nothing more than that these writers were ethnic Syrians (in the modern sense) speaking Aramaic as their mother tongue (Millar 1993, 460). It is perfectly clear from the contexts, however, that they were specifically referring to their native identity and cultural heritage, which they proudly and defiantly contrasted with the Greek culture. That heritage was Assyrian. It is worth emphasizing that while Assúrios in Roman times could refer to an inhabitant of the Roman province of Syria, it basically meant "Assyrian", nothing else. No "Syria" in the modern sense existed in antiquity. In Armenian, Parthian and Egyptian sources of the Roman period, Roman Syria is consistently and unmistakably referred to as "Assyria" (Asorik', 'swry'; 'Išr; see Frye 1992; Steiner 1993).'"

Read more here: http://www.beastfromtheeast.org/Instruments_of_Gods_Wrath.html

Sal said...

From a dozen other discussions we've already had on which peoples truly made up the Roman legions that destroyed the Temple (and I'll give you a hint, they're Romans)...

Sean Osborne of Eschatology Today has written a very detailed historical analysis showing Rome did indeed have the Temple destroyed.

hartdawg said...

no. not the beast discussion again

Nathan Jones said...

Back to the Gog-Magog Battle and why it is pretty clear that it is not Armageddon, see the "Millennial Kingdom" installment of this article series and "Is Ezekiel 38-39 Armageddon?"

Gideon said...

Mitchell,

"Did Nebuchadnezzar rule all of Asia, and the natives of North and South America? We know the answer is no and all recorded history will prove this."

Mitchell, Is recorded history the word of GOD? No, besides, I have a degree in history, and show you so many examples of where historians have given wrong accounts of history. If you don't even take GOD's infallible word as perfection, then, we can't even have a conversation. In my opinion, hyou have been reading too many books by Joel Richardson...


I don't put any stock in Beast from the East, so this is moot.

Mitchell said...

Gideon said, "Mitchell, Is recorded history the word of GOD? No, besides, I have a degree in history, and show you so many examples of where historians have given wrong accounts of history. If you don't even take GOD's infallible word as perfection, then, we can't even have a conversation. In my opinion, hyou have been reading too many books by Joel Richardson..."

Are you trying to say that Nebuchadnezzar ruled the whole literal planet? Are you saying there was a time when Greece ruled the whole planet, even North and South American that hadn't even been discovered? Is it your contention that Jews from every nation on the globe were present at Pentecost? And that Caesar taxed the planet including the Mayans, and native Indians of North America? Do you believe that the gospel was preached to every living soul on the planet and brought to every tribe and people during the first century? Is it your belief that the Bible does not employ figures of speech that are not meant to be taken in a wooden literal sense?

By the way, I have not read any of Joel Richardson's books. I've come to what I believe on my own through study of the Bible first and foremost. What he has had to say has served to confirm my suspicions of Islam and the Last Days.

Mitchell said...

Sal said, "Sean Osborne of Eschatology Today has written a very detailed historical analysis showing Rome did indeed have the Temple destroyed."

Yes, I have read that, but there are significant errors that Sean has written that will come to light soon.