Tuesday, April 14, 2009

Preparing For The Tribulation

I am someone who believes the Bible teaches a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, that is, that Jesus will return for His Bride the Church and remove her from the planet before God unleashes His wrath upon the world for seven years. At the end of the seven years, Jesus will return in His Second Coming to earth with the Church Age Saints and do battle with the Antichrist and Satan. Jesus' victory will then usher in His 1,000-year Kingdom and the world will experience peace, righteousness and justice.

Others believe that Jesus will come to rapture the Church at the mid-point of the seven years. Still others believe Jesus will rapture believers just before the opening of the Sixth Seal, which they say is the true beginning of God's wrath. And, still others believe Jesus will rapture believers up to Heaven moments before Jesus returns for His Second Coming.

I get emails almost on a daily basis from the folks who do not support the Pre-Trib Rapture view, saying the view is fundamentally flawed, nay even satanic, because it doesn't help people prepare for living in the Tribulation. When I respond by asking how they are personally preparing for the Tribulation (like building bomb shelters, making gold investments, hoarding gun caches, etc.) and inquiring how they're advising others, I receive no response.

And so, I'm left without an answer. Maybe this time, if I leave this article wide open to be finished by those who feel the need to make some type of preparation for living in the Tribulation, I'll receive answers to the following questions.

  1. Do you feel you'll be specially protected during the Tribulation (with the world being annihilated and believers being massacred - Rev. 7:9-17), and if so, how?

  2. What preparations are you currently making for living in the Tribulation?

Thank you for contributing to my understanding by using the "Comments" link below!

125 comments:

Ed said...

I, too, believe in a pre-trib rapture ...however, I feel it isn't a bad idea to have a "disaster survival" kit ...things like canned foods, bottled water, plenty of ammunition (for hunting if it comes to that), plenty of easy ways to start a fire, etc ...I actually have one that cost a couple hundred bucks, and everything is usable in a non-apocalyptic manner ...that being said, I think it would be a good starter for the tribulation survival pack, but likely woefully incomplete... ...I guess I don't have much of a point. :)

Anonymous said...

I too,believe in the pre-trib rapture. I think preparing for the tribulation will be like trying to fix a severed limb with a band aid. Is there any way you can prevent experiencing God's wrath? There is not a storehouse big enough to fill with all the supplies you would need to prepare you to endure God's judgment.

Anonymous said...

Since the Bible is NOT absolute on the timing of the rapture, preparing is not a bad idea. We could just live by faith and if we are wrong (like the parable of the wedding feast, unprepared) then we could get caught in a bad situation.

I am pre-trib believer also, but tribulation (prior to the 7-year trib period) could come in the form of economic collapse and terrorist strikes, not to mention the movement toward punishing Christians for hate crimes against homosexuals etc. Therefore I have been contemplating how to survive this type of environment over the past several years. First I bought a home in a rural area with some land, some woods and a large pond (may not do me any good), specifically so I could hunt/fish and grow a garden. All that may not workout depending on the situation. I have also started purchasing solar energy parts, in the hopes I could generate a small amount of power from the sun, I am still open to ideas on this. I have a couple kits that allow batteries to be recharged using solar power too. I would also suggest canned goods with a long shelf life, while they are affordable. I have well water and a filtering system installed so I could store tanks of water if necessary. I have short-wave and weather radios that use a hand crank to generate power and use gmrs for communication (locally). Part of me says the best way to survive is to band together. To find some like minded Christian friends and stick together through it all. These times could get realy tough and I do not see preparing as being a bad thing. However, if times do get really bad, and there are those who see that you have a plan and seem to be making it through the tough times, expect company (some hostile). Have you ever been in a store just prior to a storm when people are fighting over a loaf of bread. It could get that bad, so to some degree, all your preparation may be useless. The Bible says Christians will not have to endure the Wrath of God and that is where our faith needs to lie.

In Christ - David

Billy said...

Though I am pre-trib, I do think it is possible Christians may face persecution prior to the rapture. So I would prepare in the following way as Jesus told his disciples (Matthew Chapter 10 paraphrased):

I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you. But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Anonymous said...

I am also pre-trib. I am also a financial planner. The comment before me, about a possible "tough time" before the rapture does provide me pause.

What am I to do as a Christian Planner, especially since I have a lot of Christian clients. Do I ask them to prepare also, both financially and at home? Do I ask them to take out more cash (the green stuff) and/or gold?

I am already encouraging them as best as I can to pay off debt and trim their budgets.

Does anyone have tips? Or let me ask this, what would you as a client want to hear from your Christian planner?

JAG

Spoely

Junbuggg said...

Has anyone read the Department of Homeland Security's Intelligence and Analysis Assessment Report issued April 7th. (specifically page 5)??? I just did. Two sentenses go like this...
"Antigovernment conspiracy theories and "end times" prophecies could motivate extremist individuals and groups to stockpile food, ammunition, and weapons. These teachings also have been linked with the radicalization of domestic extremist individuals and groups in the past, such as violent Christian Identity organizations and extremist members of the militia movement".

In Feb. 09 they changed the carnage caused by terrorists to "Man-Made Disasters" and said that we will no longer call those who cause these "disasters" "Terrorists". However, they have labeled Americans that disagree with the "left" and their anti-God agenda....as "RIGHT-WING TERRORISTS"

My husband and I are Christians who study and believe in Bible Prophesy, We are American Born & Bred, We are Conservative Republicans, We are Retired Military, We are Gun Owners with Legal Permits, We are NRA Members............WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS!

We believe in a pre-trib rapture, but, we have, are, and will continue to "prepare" for whatever comes prior to the 7 year Tribulation period ~ Maranatha!!

Anonymous said...

Nathan, It would appear that so far most of your posters are Pre-Tribbers and I will have to join in that camp also.

As for preparations I have said in other comments here that I am preparing an emegency supply kit and I am trying to stock for a minimum of 30 days - but want to get up to 60 days. Plus like David I am rural and have space for a very large garden. I am also personally assuming that if things get very bad, terrorist attack or collapsed economy or persecution for Christ, my small monetary savings might only be good for toilet paper or fire starting. Hence even if supplies are available at the store (doubtful) I will have no means to purchase the bare necessities. There most likely (IMO) will be No gasoline for transport, no electricity for home or office, no running water (water tanks need power to pull water up to the top) and no medical care. I have an old well where I can get water but it needs purifying so I bought some chlorine bleach for disinfecting the water and I will boil before use or consumption ( I have a Boy Scout who is researching exactly how much chloring per gallon is safe). I have a generator for running lamps and fans and other small appliances. I am purchasing 5 gallon gas cans and using fuel stablizer that should keep the fuel fresh for 1 year. David there are some excellent resources on the net on how to build a small wind turbine from PVC and a small generator motor - something I am interested in.

I like to think I am somewhat resourceful and have some pioneer spirit to endure such challenges. BUt stop and consider how our lives are so entwined and dependent on modern conveniences. And imagine living for extended time periods without power, without computer, without tv (really a good idea anyway with the junk on tv), cars and trucks to transport our goods etc. etc. etc. It would be more difficult than we can imagine to survive for months or years without these things. I simply can't produce all the produce and other foods I have become accustomed to, I can't make cloth to provide clothing. POint being life would be drastically different in my opinion, not just inconvenient. And for this there is not enough supplies or preparation I can do - it is all in God's hands and He will provide. I am simply trying to use common sense to begin prepartions for now. In all I trust in my risen Lord!!!!!!

David, I agree with you. I think Christians should be preparing to band together as they did in the early centuries of the Church. This is not cowardice or shirking our responsibilites - We will need each other for spiritual support, for the different skills God has gifted to each for physical support, and yes for defense. And that is my biggest question and concern and would like others thoughts. I have never owned guns before but lately I have purchased 2 handguns and am purchasing a rifle for hunting. But let's face it - if someone sees me and I appear healthy because I am eating from my supplies, or if they see lights on in my house, or hear my generator, or see my garden they may feel they need my stuff more than me and my family and they may get hostile in their intent to commender. I abhor violence, but I may have to defend myself with deadly force (and I will because I am a husband and father and I feel that is one of my roles as a man), not something I want to do but it may come to that. And now is the time for Christians to prepare mentally, before the situation arises. If you feel this is wrong and un-Christian I can respect that and I would ask your opinion on how to stay alive when things are not so good and rosy as we are used to here in America.

All of what I have rambled on about is assuming a Pre-Trib Rapture. Otherwise, it would seem to me that if we are here for 3.5 or 7 years of The Tribulation we are talking about a much more serious scenario. I simiply can't stock enough provisions for 7 people for such time frames. And if during this time the mark of the Beast is REQUIRED for all purchases (a cashless society - which is almost here) then I cannot comprehend in my mind how large numbers of Christians can survive (other than a tremendous outpouring of God). TO my simple ways of thinking this is a strong - albeit human "proof" - for a Pre-TRib way of thinking. Gar be it from me though to limit an Almight God who watches over His children. If not taken in a Pre-Trib Rapture I will be watching with awe as God does provide for 3.5 or 7 years.

Sorry - Rambling,
Rob from Alabama

Anonymous said...

Well, I, too, am a pre-tribber, but I've still felt the need to try to prepare for come what may. For me, that means stocking up on canned goods, dry goods, water, soap, disinfectants, and first aid materials. We are also growing a garden, and I've been trying to think of the best way to generate electricity here (if needed). I've suggested things to my husband, such as moving some wood from our other property to our house, getting propane canisters filled, and making a small BBQ pit that we can cook on if needed.

My husband and I have also talked about building a small greenhouse, adding another water-collection tank (we already have one), and/or drilling a well. None of those things have come to fruition yet, but they are possibilities.

In the end, I agree with others here. It's certainly good to be prepared, but it is God who provides for our needs today, tomorrow, and every day.

To the Christian Planner, I would agree that getting out of debt and living WAY below your means should be the top two suggestions to your clients. I forgot to mention this above, but paying off our debts (while the money was still worth something) was definitely what God let us to do.

I would like to know from a financial planner whether I should invest in gold or goods. However, I kinda doubt anyone could really tell me that, for only God knows. As you can see, I've felt led to invest in goods (food being top priority). After all, last I checked, gold wasn't very indigestible or too palatable either!

Laura

G.M. said...

I also believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, but as previous posters have stated, lots of bad things can happen before the rapture that aren't part of the 7 year Tribulation (earthquakes, fires, riots, etc.).

Our family has started buying Mountain House freeze dried foods (shelf life of 20 years!). We also bought a Life Saver water filter/purifier. And, we've started to legally purchase rifles and handguns, and go practice at the shooting range when we can. The guns are for hunting and protection. I've also got books on medical care when there's no doctor, as well as the SAS Survival Handbook by John Wiseman. We've got an evacuation bag with extremely basic stuff in it if we need to get out of town because of a disaster.

Having said all that, there is no way that these preparations will be enough for the 7 year Tribulation. These supplies are just to start us off. Like the 5 loaves and 2 fish that Jesus multiplied, our preparations must be multiplied by Him. I also think that our preparations may be for those who are left behind.

Sal said...

G.M., those were a lot of great suggestions! I was looking for something that had a longer shelf-life than cans.

Ironic, I laughed at the relatives that stocked up for Y2K, and now here I'm doing it for a possible Great Depression 2. As a suburbanite, I can only stock up the pantry, buy extra propane, and fill my little yard with fruit trees. I'll have to concentrate on gold/silver for bartering for food.

Soooo, where are all the post-tribulation people that troll this site all the time? I think it validates Nathan's claim that they don't answer these questions.

Junbuggg said...

No comments about my posting?? Does this mean that I am the only one here that has read it???

G.M. said...

Junbuggg,

I did not read the Dept. of Homeland Security document you mentioned. I don't doubt your description. Frankly, Christians and traditional American values are under attack on so many fronts all at once that it's overwhelming. From the bailouts in Washington DC to gain more control over the private sector, to the assault on marriage by gay activists, to the Global Warming indoctrination of our children in public schools, to the threat of increased gun control, to abandoning Israel in foreign policy---it's too much.

For this week, I'll go to a Tax Day Tea Party to protest spending in Washington DC. Personally I can only handle so many issues at once. I'm sure your concern is warranted, and I'm glad you mentioned it. However, personally, I think it's inevitable that these things happen. I'll do my part to put the brakes on this landslide into total government control, but I think it's inevitable.

Billy said...

Junbuggg...of course we read your comments :)

As for my ACTUAL preparations, here's what I'm doing...






As in nothing! Since I live in earthquake country I'm usually a little bit prepared anyway. But honestly, I'm so convinced of a pre-tribulation rapture that I have no motivation to stockpile anything.

loki said...

I think preparing for supplies is one thing. Preparing for persecution, torture and martyrdom is something else. How does one prepare for that? As has been pointed out, this can happen any time. Is it not our relationship and faith in Christ that protects us?

Anonymous said...

I guess I'm one of the post-tribbers - hey! finally one on this site! ;-)
When I read the bible, I just don't truly see where it talks about a "secret" coming where He takes us believers - I pretty much hang my hat on Matthew 24 where Jesus describes "the end". He doesn't tell his disciples not to worry because he will take them away beforehand (although he DOES say to not worry because he has told us already before these things are to happen)... He only mentions sending His angels to gather the believers at the sound of the trump, and then He appears in the clouds in His Glorious Second Coming (I don't read it as Second Coming Part II).
I would truly love to believe that I won't have to go through any of this stuff, but at the same time, I'd rather be prepared to experience it so that I won't be disillusioned because I thought I wouldn't have to but here I am in it... For me, I guess preparation doesn't have much to do with money or food (although yes, I have been buying things like rice and dry beans when I go for groceries) because I think if God's going to pour out some bad stuff, anything I do just won't amount to a hill of beans (no pun intended!). He does a pretty thorough job. For me it's pretty much exactly like one of the commentors above stated with the scriptures, I am emotionally preparing myself with the knowledge that I MAY have to suffer for the Lord, I MAY be martyred, I MAY suffer hunger and thirst or worse, but that the Lord (as I read the scripture) has told us of these things so that we can be prepared to stand for Him during the darkness... He certainly didn't spare His Son, and look how the Apostles were killed, so I'm not truly convinced that we should expect any better treatment - I guess I'm preparing to have to die for my faith if it comes to that, but even if I do, completely trusting in the Lord and knowing that He will be there to greet me on the other side.
That's just my two cents :-)

hartdawg said...

i once set out to disprove the rapture cuz i was mad at a pastor for giving me a poorly thought platitude church answer. i came VERY close and was even able to convince others but there were some very basic questions that simply could not be answered and after reading several books by grant jeffrey i was thorughly convinced my original pre-trib position was right. i had a pastor who believed the rapture could occur anytime from now to 4months into the tribulation to 3yrs into it. he stated the rapture has NO RELATION to the tribulation so his advice was to stock up, have emergency plans and share your faith aggressively. (a seeker sensetive pastor said this)

Anonymous said...

Junbuggg,

I have read similar DHS documents and those of other intel agencies. I have set in on Gov meetings where scenarios were derived from scratch that could be considered detrimental to the security of the nation. Acts of subversion/treason or mutiny. In these discussions terrorists, EXTREME and VIOLENT militia groups and others were identified. The words "end-times extremists" were also used. But the keywords are "Extremist and Violent". Plans were then divised on what technologies should be used to counter these organizations in case they became actively violent and intolerant of Gov policy. I know that this sounds very scarry to you and others, but maybe a little bit of reassurance can help. Have heart, many of the members of these planning teams are Christians and end-time believers, many lead there weekly Bible Studies, thus these teams (at least for today) have Christian men and women on them. (living proof) Therefore, I know first hand that the average Christian End-Time believing Man or Woman is safe in survival mode. The Gov has policy and individuals have beliefs, neither are expected to line up totally (at least not yet). The Gov expects all people to be able to plan and provide for their families during a crisis situation. The American Red Cross even has a published guide on steps to take in preparation for natural and unnatural disasters, to include nuclear war. That said, there are individual people and groups within the borders of the US that are and have displayed extreme violence toward the Gov in the past. So there are plans in place to help Gov officials deal with those types of groups. That is today.... Moving forward those types of planning sessions and the contengency plans created from those sessions will probably be extended to cover any non-government peaceful group that is unfairly labeled extreme. When I think of this I feel JOY inside as these types of events are prophesied to happen and only mean that we are that much closer to the glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior. So seeing these types of documents in official print, should not scare you but should cause your to look up for your redemtion draweth nigh...

In Christ - David

hartdawg said...

i simply do not have the means to stock up, i cant even afford a decent pair of shoes so my feet gats wet every time it rains. AND I LIVE NEAR SEATTLE. all i can do is trust God to meet my needs. didnt jesus promise to do just that? i believe in common sense but if you cant afford to stock up i spose you'll have to just depend on God.

Billy said...

Post-trib Anon...of all of us, your comments belong here more than the rest of us...after all, it was YOU that Nathan wanted to hear from :)

Anonymous said...

It is good to hear from a post-tribber, maybe we will get a mid-tribber in here? I have often wondered what it would be like to be a part of a group of believers working together for survival while awaiting the Rapture of the Church. Maybe I have seen too many older Christian movies where survival was a group effort. But even in those older movies it was always great to hear the actors stop and praise God and Jesus. As with all of you keeping the faith and trusting in God is by far the most important thing we can do during these troubled times, in concert with helping others to understand the Gospel message and come to Jesus while its still possible.

Hartdawg, noone should go without a good pair of shoes. Post your address and size and I will send you a pair.

Look up everyone, because our redemption surely draweth near...

In Christ - David

Anonymous said...

Just a quick comment. (I'm post) We need to remember that storing up food and provisions etc. should be not only for our own household (kids, elderly etc.), but also for our neighbors and those who are not prepared. We need to look toward any crisis, whether it be the ultimate biggy or any number of smaller crises not as things to dread, but as opportunities to minister the love of Christ and to share the Gospel. Also, while physical prep is important, spiritual is by far more. What we stor in our hearst cannot be taken or stolen. Food and flashlights, not so much. We also need to remember that the Book of Revelation is not about the triumph of Satan, but the Revealing of and ultimate victory of Jesus! Rather than focusing on pre or post, lets all prepare for victory!

Great posts lately Nathan and David.

Junbuggg said...

So far, it appears that everyone has a plan....and good ones. Hopefully, none of us will have to actually use the provisions we all seem to be making.

G.M., you made a good point that maybe the provisions we are making now may be needed by those "left behind". Such as unsaved family members and friends. That was our thoughts ( mine and my husbands) when we first decided to do this. Included in our "survival provisions" are my Bible and loads of information. Much of it I accumulated from Lamb & Lion Ministries....copies of The Lamplighter...DVD's...the Christ In Prophesy Study Guide...and articles that I printed out from the website, including the "Jesus Came, What's Next" letter. I have copies of that in my Bible and in my study guide. If that turns out to be the case, hopefully the provisions will last long enough for them to accept Christ as their savior. Maybe that is why it has been put on our hearts to prepare...not for ourselves, but for others.

hartdawg said...

DAVID, GOD BLESS YOU FOR YOUR GENEROUSITY!! Good news however, a friend of mine, not 1hr ago from when i put this post up, gave me a pair of vans'. and skate shoes are the most comfortable. and furthermore this friend of mine was a youth who i hang out with. he's been a christian for a long time but sunday (easter night) he got baptised.

hartdawg said...

i'm sorry, it was DC's. still good shoes tho. he got them but never wears them.

Anonymous said...

I know my earlier rambling may have been a little heavy on the worldly view and light on the spiritual view. But I still have a somewhat more worldy question and I hope you don't think I am a complete nut job: Is there anyone posting here that is considering/has considered the issue of self-defense & use of deadly force for the Believer? I know many of the Biblical arguments for both sides of the issue, but am still curious how other Believers see it. Let me begin by saying I am 100% with the rest of you in saying that our (my) reliance is ONLY in the blood of Jesus - whether He comes before, midway or at the end of The Tribulation period. I take no pleasure or bravado in contemplating this issue of taking a precious human life if carried out - I hate violence and confrontation. I have never owned guns - and yes I purchased them legally and I have a C&C permit from the county sheriff (my wife and I own a small business and have to make deposits - another factor in the purchase of a weapon). This is not the way I was raised - honestly. But I have come to feel through prayer, consideration, and talking to fellow believers that this may be a valid course of thinking/acting in this topsy turvey world. And I really am not worried about the ultimate future as God has revealed how the story ends - we have a home in Heaven with our Father for all eternity. We all agree that the end results are still the same - but we differ on what happens on THIS side of Heaven - and as of right now God has not made the timing and logistics crystal clear. So for now we have to make choices with our finite human intellect & understanding and I am just curious about others understanding relating to personal self-defense or defense for a group of Christians under attack/persecution.

Junbugg, I have read your post and read some of the excerpts from the report. Kind of wild and potentially troubling reading in my opinion. David, you may be right about decent-even Christian- men and women who are in on the meetings, for now. But how hard would it be to turn this type of thinking on our own decent law abiding citizenry who simply oppose wrong and/or ungodly gov. policy. To my way off thinking it is still the same - our government and its leaders getting too much power over our everyday lives, too much scrutiny - well intentioned or not. I read part of the edict (as I saw reported by Joseph Farrah at World Net Daily) that came from Missouri back in March '09 that reads "law enforcement should watch for individuals with "radical" ideologies based on Christian views, such as opposing illegal immigration, abortion, and federal taxes". That's me they're talking about- a Christian opposed to some things going on in our society that I see as evil, ungodly and destructive. Absolute power corrupts absolutely as the old saying goes and we may getting to that point in America.

All crazy talk aside (if it is crazy). I agree with others here and I shall purchase some extra goodies to allow a more compassionate side to my "survival" type of thinking. In the end I want to share the love of Christ with a sin sick, rotting, decaying world that needs to know of the love of God. And they will know we are Christians by our love expressed in concrete ways.

Psalm 23
Rob from Alabama

Anonymous said...

Rob -

Your line of thinking is certainly inline with many Christian men and women across the nation. Are there radical (far-left) types involved with making Gov policy? Yes there are, especially now that we have a very left leaning Gov. I believe there are policies in place not only at the National level but also at the State and Local level, I also believe there are those in pseudo positions of power who would love to remove every Christian from society. I also agree that the comments made on WND are very scarry and alarming. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being prepared to protect ourselves and our communities its our 2nd amendment right to do so. Amen to that! So lets consider the Bible:

2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

These two verses make my point. Today the Holy Spirit exists within the many Christians in all walks of life, even at the policy making level where lawlessness is already at work, thus we can say that we are relatively safe today and for the moment, however once the Rapture occurs and Christ removes the 'restrainer' from the earth then all hell will break loose. There will no longer be Christians around to temper the enforcement of extreme policies and Christians will become hunted. But for now the Holy Spirit holds this back and provides a veil of protection within society.

BUT:

2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Its going to be hell on earth. Here is where all the items that we believers left behind will help. If I were a non-believer wondering around in an unfamiliar area (had to get away from the lawless city) and stumbled across the empty home of a raptured believer, I just might sit down and read the many books and articles of literature left behind. These items may explain the reasons for the hell I am living in, however, they may also lead me to Christ. Thus I think it is great that so many are leaving Christian literature behind. I have lots of it myself as well. This may sound silly to some but I also have the entire set of the original 'Left behind' novels. Someone may not pick up the Bible, but might pick up a novel that could lead them to pick up the Bible?? Silly or not they are there.

The whole point of this post, it that we are to occupy until the restrainer is taken away, that being the Holy Spirit. Many here are pre-trib and believe we too will be taken away before the lawless one is revealed.

I do not think it to be imprudent to 'occupy' today and 'protect' your families, yourselves, and your neighbors should that need arise. This will become commonplace once the restrainer is removed and the tribulation saints are left to fend for themselves.

In Christ - David

Ed said...

Praise God!
The pre and post tribbers in the same thread of comments and it was all peaceful and with love!
Thank you all pre and post for your hearts ...because this is the heart we need in this potentially last hour!

Junbuggg said...

David ~ I also have the Left Behind books....in addition to the Left Behind Movies....in my "stash" of provisions. I also have an excellent book by Tim LaHaye & Jerry Jenkins "Are we living in the END TIMES". I bought it back in 1999, and have re-read it just about every other year since. Reading it again now. Great book!

Anonymous said...

I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, in that I don't believe it MUST happen before, it COULD, but doesn't have to. To answer the questions, no I do not believe there is special protection from the persecution of the world and anti-christ during that time. If I'm alive I truly expect to be required to give up my life for Jesus. There is no survival kit as in water, food and medical supplies that can help during that time. The preparations are Prayer, prayer, prayer. Learning to worship God in any circumstance and Memorize the Word of God, hide it in your heart. There will come a time when the Bible and all reference materials will probably become outlawed worldwide and believers will need to know the Word without it. The church in the west is woefully unprepared for persecution, we are soft and complain when our freedom of speech is cut back! We should take a lesson from our Brothers and Sisters around the world who are already losing their homes, churches, families, and lives for their faith. We'll need to cling to Jesus ONLY, not survival kits, money or anything else to survive, and even then, we still may be called to give our lives. Be ready in and out of season.

Junbuggg said...

Everyone ~ what is your understanding of Jude 1:5 (NIV)?

"Though you already know this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe"

I am just curious of others understanding of this. "Judes" location in the Bible...right before "Revelation"...I think was planned as "comfort" for us before we were to read some very disturbing things in Revelation. And it was written by Jesus brother.

I understand "delivered" & "out of" as meaning...taken away and/or being put somewhere else, and, "but later"...as meaning...He went back, once He took them out of the way, and destroyed. I hope I understand it correctly....for all of us. Excited to see what everyone else thinks!

Anon ~ I agree that we should really know the Bible..every part of it, but I believe that there is solid evidence in Revelation that there will be "Christian material" available during the 7 year tribulation period. I think that during this time...will be when there will be a violent and rampant push to eradicate this material. And, I believe that God will allow time for this material to be "considered" by those left behind. That is my hope anyway, and the reason I am including such material in my provisions.

Your sister in Christ ~ Buggg

Gideon said...

Junbugg,

LaHaye and Jenkin's book Are We Living in the End Times was what really stoked my interest in end-times prophecy. I still have it and pull it out every once in a while.

Your post did not go unnoticed. We (Christians and conservatives) are now considered enemies of the state by the Obama admin. I told my wife this was coming when he was running for president. Don't be surprised if we see a "burning of the Reichstag" incident in this country in the next two - three years. If you know the history of Hitler's seizure of power and labeling Jews as enemies you will understand that statement.

I'm sure many people will disagree with me, but I believe we are already at war with our government. Look at the DHS report, and it lists the people to watch including: gun owners, military vets, end times prophecy Christians, Pro-lifers, and the list goes on. Look at the Tea Parties going on today. We have two entirely different countries currently residing in the same borders, and two countries cannot exist inside the same borders for very long. One will eventually try to purge the populace of the other. The shots just have not been fired, yet...

I've said this for the last eight years, there are one of two reasons why the U.S. does not come to the aid of Israel during the Gog and Magog invasion; 1) The U.S. has an anti-Semitic president 2) The U.S. is currently fighting a second Civil War....

Anonymous said...

It is so good to know the Lord is in control and leading so many of His children in this time.
My husband and I began storing supplies last year. We see that He lead Joseph to prepare, and so we have in some degree. And the thought that it may be used by or for others than ourselves has helped.
We too have thought about those who may see our garden, water catchers, etc. And, everytime, it comes to us when Jesus said, in Luke6:29 "If a man takes your cloak, give him your tunic also." We do not own guns and do not plan to. How would we as Christians be showing our belief and trust in His faithfulness, if we do as they do in "protecting" ourselves, or yes, even our families, by taking life to save our own? God is sovereign, and all our days are in His hand. We will not leave earth until He chooses, and in whatever way He may choose.
We are to Love Him more than our own lives, and trust that He knows what is best for us and others.
What can ANY man do, but take our lives, and thereby, WE GO HOME!!
Trust and love the Lord Jesus, keep our eyes on Him and our real home! No fear, not even of those who may threaten our very lives, especially over food or things,is worthy of Him who loves, cares and wathces over us. Oh, this is a time to rejoice, no matter how hard it gets here or for how long!! He is fulfilling His Word before our very eyes! Which means? He's very, very close to His return!! How much better could anything be!! Love to you all . . .

Anonymous said...

On a light-hearted note. My wife and I have 5 children whom I homeschool, the wife runs our small business. Hence, we never leave the house (1200 sq ft worth) and in such a small place it can get pretty messy with books, toys, folded clothes etc. So we are always on them to pick up the stuff. We have jokingly said we would like to leave the house in good order just in case someone, after the Rapture, who is fleeing from the big city finds our home. We don't want them thinking we're slobs you know - my mom would roll in her grave if she thought her son couldn't accept company in the proper way - aka a clean house.

And I like the thought that,if nothing else, maybe God is impressing His people to prepare so others "left behind" can have a few worldly provisions - who knows for sure. And I too have bookshelves full of Christian books, maybe I will put the more evangelistic books all on the same shelf and make them more prominent.

Thanks David - That is how I was thinking of it. I am just not 100% sure that Christians will be removed from ALL danger before the Rapture. I see no contradiction in my faith in Christ and the use of force for protection -- and I was just wondering if others were thinking likewise. As I have said before I feel God uses all His people to help one another as we face our all too human predicaments - others may have a better insight. And even though I have been a Believer for 35 years and I strive to know my Lord through the daily reading of His Word and prayer I am not too proud to say I welcome sound Godly advice.

Maranatha !!!!
Rob from Alabama

Anonymous said...

Anonymus - your post appeared while I was writing my last. I can truly respect your thoughts on defense and it is something with which I wrestle - please don't think me callous, mean-spirited, and un-Christian. I only came to my conclusion after several years of wondering/praying/seeking what my responsibilities are. And I sincerely pray I don't have to act out in self-defense - I love the peace and quiet of my little life.

Allow me a few observations that helped me come to MY conclusion. One is that throughout the Old Testament God allowed His chosen people Israel to defend themselves and actually had them go on the offensive to pre-empt future troubles and even be a device of judgement on other nations/peoples. In Numbers 20 you see how God actually gave them laws for war. Just before they entered the Promised land God reminded His people that HE was giving them the land settled by other people not because of their goodness or rightousness but because of the Godlessness of the people in Canaan - sorry I cannot find the exact verse at this second. And they were to drive them out - and the truth is that involved killing men, women & children. No - war and killing are not part of God's perfect plan, and I cannot comprehend fully the justice and rightousness of killing all inhabitants as it goes against MY sense of right and wrong. But God's ways are above mine and my understanding is not His. So I am left to try to come to terms with the hard fact that this type of thing is contained in God's Word. The best my wittle brain can do is to conclude that He knows we live in a fallen world and there is evil and sin crouching at our door to destroy us - including those who wish us dead. And as such I think He allows us to defend ourselves against such evil and sin. And at times God allows violence to bring judgement on sin.

Two - yes we are commanded in the New Testament to give our cloak and turn the other cheek and live peacable law abiding lives, etc. But Christ also told His disciples to sell their cloak to buy a sword (Luke 22:36) and there were two of them and Christ said that was enough (vs. 38). By the way I see no indication that Peter or any other discipline had to go sell something to get that sword. It was already there - perhaps they carried it with them day to day. So my question is: How do I reconcile Christ saying be nice AND get a weapon? My thought is that Jesus' earthly mission was different from ours - He had no family (wife & kids), no home and He was sent to save us through His own death and resurrection and He knew that so His violent death was His end so He accepted it in faith. Even though He prayed for His Father to take the cup from Him He knew that was His mission so why fight the violence. I have a different mission. I am to train up my children in the ways of the Lord and teach them about Christ - and prepare them to use their God given talents in this world for God's glory and honor. I am also to honor and protect my wife. I simply can't imagine saying to someone who breaks into my world with violence - oh sure go ahead kill/torture me and my kids, or other unspeakable horrors to my wife and daughter. I'm sorry if that makes me a weak Brother but I just can't say I will watch my people for whom I am responsible suffer if I can stop it. It is not a matter of unbelief or not trusting God's provision, I see it as a matter of taking care of the gifts I have been given - again in the context that I don't live in a perfect world where everyone is seeking the Lord with all their heart, soul & mind.

Again, I do respect your opinion and am not trying to persuade you or your husband. I just wanted to try to express how I (and my wife supports and agrees) came to my conclusion. Truth be told I have no real idea how I will react in a dangerous situation - weapon or no weapon. I have preayed extensively about this and continue to ask for guidance.

Rob from Alabama

Junbuggg said...

Rob ~ Wow....you just sounded EXACTLY like my husband...when he and I were discussing these possibilities!

Billy said...

After reading all these comments, it seems there's only one thing more rare that post-tribbers and that's me...the lone pre-tribber who isn't stockpiling anyting.

I still stand by my earlier post which in part read:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."

We will face what we face as is the will of God and nothing we do can change His will. It's how we respond that matters. Will our faith fail, remain strong or grow even stronger? God says not even a sparrow dies if not by the will of God, therefore I say just be ready to accept the fate that awaits. Prepare best through prayer.

Anonymous said...

I feel that self-defense is a personal matter between you and the Lord. There are some verses that kinda hint at it, but there's none that out-right say, "Do this" or "Don't do this." People often point to the verses about turning the other cheek or giving up your cloak, but if you look carefully at the context, these are not meant to be taken as precedents in all situations. Instead, the gist of what Jesus was saying is: If someone is angry with you, heap blessings on them.

As a single female, I felt strongly that I needed to defend myself if the need ever arose. So, I took several years of Krav Maga classes for that purpose. Thankfully, I've never had to use Krav to defend myself. I'm married now, and I can tell you this: my husband feels it's his responsibility and duty to defend his family. And I feel pretty confident that he will!

Bottom line: We don't have to agree about this! (Freedom in Christ--isn't it great?)

Laura

Junbuggg said...

Laura ~ good post, and I agree with you. Although, you mentioned that there were no verses that say absolutely to do this or that...when it comes to killing (lets call it what it is). Deuteronomy adresses this. And I have to say, it was one of the most difficult books in the Bible for me to wrap my simple human mind around. I don't EVER want to be put in a position to have to take someones life. However, if/when I am...my hope is that the Lord will lead me at that moment to make whatever choice He sees fit. That is all that any of us can and should hope for.....considering the times we are now, and in the future, will be living in. In a previous thread, someone alluded to the possibility that I may not study both old, and new, Testaments because I had said "Happy Easter". And by the way...sorry if I offended anyone....please forgive me if I did. That was certainly not my intention. I study the entire Bible. It is all Gods word.

And as for pre-mid-post trib. We absolutely do not have to agree. It is not "us" against "them". We are all on the same side, Gods. I can picture it now.....we are all in heaven at the feast....laughing at how it didn't really matter "when" we got there, but that we did. Maranatha!

Your sister in Christ ~ Buggg

Anonymous said...

Pre-Trib/PostTrib?

I believe that when the 7 years starts, it is a whole new world. The Bible does predict that when the last person has come to Christ that is called, the end times would begin. So, why would God/Jesus, then decided to now test those of us that believe through the Rapture.

It just doesn't make sense. I would be almost like me asking my Children to stay on the Titanic, instead of the life boats, just to see, if they can live through the last plunge, like Leonard DiCaprio (sp?) did.

Any thoughts?

JAG

Spoely

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I meant "tribulation" not "rapture" at the end of the first paragraph.

Spoely

Junbuggg said...

Spoely ~ go read my comment on the Wed. April 8th. post. I think you will like it. It was my first time blogging, so it is labeled as anon....then Nathan told me about the "name/url" thing.

Buggg :-)

Anonymous said...

Billy, that's ok to be the "lone ranger" in this. You are absolutely correct - our trust and hope for all our needs is in the Lord. But consider this - God has also given us the ability to use a very complex brain as we humans encounter the world He created. This thinking ability is a gift so we can know and worship more fully our God than the rest of the creation is able. And perhaps He gives us warnings in advance to allow the finite human thinking the ability to catch up/prepare for what He knows is coming. What if Christ tarries and some "ugly" things are allowed to happen while Believers are on this side of Heaven? My preparations are not an attempt to assist God or circumvent His provision or question His ability to provide - He doesn't need my advice or help. My little mind sees this as nothing but good stewardship of my roles as husband & father and small use of the mind God has given me (although I have friends who question whether or not I ever had any sense)(with friends like that who needs enemies).

Just a thought,
Rob from Alabama

Billy said...

Rob,

My comments are based on the hypothetical scenario of being in the actual tribulation (which in reality I don't think will be the case).

But, in that scenario, I don't think stockpiles would help. As a Christian, now hated beyond description, banned from buying and selling, maybe banned from owning or renting property, you now find yourself having to abandon your stockpiles as you live in the gutter.

You face persecution not only from officials but from citizens. Your beaten, spat on, yelled at, treated like a disease that needs to be erradicated.

You face the choice of deny Christ or die. You have no sanctuary anywhere. You have nothing, absolutely nothing left but your faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the scenario I can see for Christians in the tribulation. You'll be a criminal under torment, not a survivor sitting next to your battery powered lamp eating peanut butter and crackers.

Junbuggg said...

Billy :-0!
I disagree....that "you will have nothing, absolutely nothing left but your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ"!! You will have plenty of "company" if that turns out to be the situation ~ us

Buggg :-)

Billy said...

Buggg - I hope you're right for their sake, but I think it will be so bad that any Christians found together will be shot dead on site.

I really think this is be the most unimaginably horrific time in all history to be a Christian.

But thank the Lord we know the fate of those poor people, they will be eternally blessed with the most unimaginably splendorous treasures in Heaven.

I just don't think anyone should underestimate how awful the tribulation is going to be.

Junbuggg said...

Billy ~ I totally agree....and the Bible confirms it by stating that if God did not intervene during the Tribulation NO ONE would survive it!

Billy said...

Yep, Buggg, and let's not forget all the radiation from nukes, natural disasters to the max, supernatural punishments, etc. and you can forget about all your grand plans to ride it out in your basement.

son of thunder said...

If we don't get raptured pre-trib, then I can hunt, fish, and live off the land. I'm one of those right-wing wackos Homeland Security is worried about.

son of thunder said...

Billy said: I really think this is be the most unimaginably horrific time in all history to be a Christian.

Billy, I disagree. We should be excited. We should be so giddy we can't sit still. Why? Because we are going home soon.

It's like being at work. The closer it gets to quiting time the happier I get.

Junbuggg said...

Well Billy ~ as a pre-tribber I don't think I will be riding it out anywhere (besides, we don't have basements here in Florida), However, as I stated previously, my hope is that these provisions that I am preparing (my Bible and loads of information included) will be enough to sustain unsaved family members or friends during the tribulation long enough for them to read what I've left and be able to accept Christ.

Son ~ ditto on your comment...guess that includes my husband and me as well.

:-) Buggg

Anonymous said...

Billy we are in agreement in regards to your point concerning The Rapture. Yes the horrors will be beyond the pale in terms of human suffering and I can't imagine my supplies being a drop in the proverbial bucket for that scenario. 1/2 of the worlds population dying in the wars of the Anti-Christ, the mark of the Beast, Persecution with a Capital P, natural disasters, plaques. You are correct there is no way anyone alive can comprehend the enormity of the wrath poured out by a Holy God on a sinful world that has rejected His offer of Redemption - also another reason I am pre-Tribulation, I can't imagine my loving Father letting me see such horror and suffering. So I am agreeing that we are out of here and I do long for that glorious day and in that respect I hope somone can find my meager stash and make use of it.

But what I am asking is what if there is a time frame pre-Rapture when we cannot access the normal goods we are used to. What if a terrorist (and yes I'm a still using that term - offense meant to terrorists) nuclear attack, complete and total economic failure, or a gov't crackdown on those pesky "subversive" Christians causes us lose our ability to find and purchase: fuel, electricity, food, toilet paper, washing powders, shoes, water, you name it; when we can no longer get to school :( unfortunately for my kids school is still in since we homeschool, work, church even. Should we not prepare for that - assuming, hopefully, it is short lived before Christ returns in The Rapture?

And I also agree that we American Christians are woefully ignorant of what true persecution is and I sense many think it cannot happen here. But I see that it is already starting, infrastructure wise anyway - homeland security reports, Big Brother intrusions, going cashless in our economics, RFD chips, cell phone tracking citizens (there was a report on this being used at some university to "keep students safe"), UN Childrens Bill of Rights telling me how to parent, United Religious Initiative preparing us for a one world religion, etc. It is here and as far as I can see all that is needed is a catalyst to make our NWO leaning leaders enforce the rules that will lead to persecution. And so many Christians are living with their heads in the sand not seeing the signs.

Sorry - been on a tear today - just seems these things seem to be coming faster and faster, as Nathan mentioned. My prayer is simply to be ready to meet my Savior when He comes and to honor Him in word and deed.

Rob from Alabama

hartdawg said...

rob, concerning self defense, i say this with all love and respect. chill out and dont worry about sounding worldly. your responsibility is to your family and flock. KILL THE WOLVES. thats biblical. if necessary defend yourself so you can do more for the gospel. thats my 2 cents

hartdawg said...

YO BILLY! you're trust in God mentality, i'm not quite sure how accurate it is. perhaps totally, perhaps not at all. i believe in simple common sense, if you can stock up and prepare if like me you cant trust in God and COMMUNITY. when david offered the shoes, that kind of attitude is what will be needed among christians for survival and evanglism

Donald Dolmus said...

The character of God is reflected in the Pre-Trib Rapture for His faithful Church. He's going to rescue her before the Antichrist can inflict some harm on her.

God is faithful to every one of His promises.

Daily tribulation isn't equal to Great Tribulation.

Something more: Have you ever noted the hate with which most of the post trib. refer to us that believe in the Pre-trib Rapture?

son of thunder said...

Donald Dolmus said: Have you ever noted the hate with which most of the post trib. refer to us that believe in the Pre-trib Rapture?

Donald, I wouldn't call it hate. Spite, maybe, but hate is a very powerful emotion. And even then, only from the (Joel) Richardsonites, as I call them.

Most get irritated if you don't come over to their view, but I wouldn't say it's hate. If it were hate, then there would be bloodshed on the Islamic level in our churches.

Dennis said...

Quote "I pretty much hang my hat on Matthew 24 where Jesus describes "the end". He doesn't tell his disciples not to worry because he will take them away beforehand"

I believe Mat 24 was not written TO the Church rather to Israel. Jesus laments Israel's rejection of the Kingdom in 23:37. Then in Matt 24 he answers the question "What will be the sign of Your coming and the end of the age".

I have heard sermons preached and songs sung on Matt:24 40-41 and always it bothered me, Where do those who are taken go? In 24:39 who was taken away? Where were they taken? v40-41 Where were the man from the field and the woman taken?

I believe the answer is in verses 50-51.

My read is that Jesus is describing the sheep-goat judgment not the removal of the Church so God can judge the world and bring Israel to the point of desperation that they will finally look on him who they pierced and believe.

So If I believe the Lord rescues his church before the Tribulation and returns to conclude the tribulation does that make me Post Trib?

Junbuggg said...

Thunder ~ No that it really matters, but I agree. Lokk at how many people disagree on "hell" and "soul sleep". Hate rolls in when you have unbelivers vs belivers in Jesus Christ.

:-) Buggg

Junbuggg said...

sorry for all the messed yp text on that last post.....working with a broken arm here....and got to get my "rythem" going this morning

son of thunder said...

I've also noticed on this posting, there is really nobody talking about real preparation, especially from the "post-tribbers." There's no mention of bomb shelters, nuclear-biological-chemical (NBC) equipment such as water purifiers, gas masks, chemical suits, or protective tents.

No mention of moving to the "safe zones" in case of nuclear fall-out. Generators in case of EMP attack. Buying older (pre-1980's) vehicles that have no computers that would be affected by EMP. No fuel storage for vehicles and generators.

I would think that if you plan on going through the worst time in human history, then you need to really prepare for the worst time in human history.

As for me, I believe it when my God tells me I will be spared the Tribulation: the wrath that is to come. Just as Noah was spared the wrath in his day, so will the church be spared in ours.

Someone once said something like this: For the believer this world is the closest they'll ever get to hell, and for the unbeliever this world is the closest they'll ever get to heaven.

son of thunder said...

Dennis asked: Where do they go?

Where did Enoch go? Where did Elijah go? To be with the LORD.

To be post-trib, you have to believe that the Rapture occurs at the end of the 7 year period called the Tribulation (meaning we have to live through hell on earth), and then, once we meet Jesus in the air, we all just turn around and come right back.

In Matthew 24:50-51, Jesus is talking about the falling away. People who say, "Jesus is taking too long. He's not coming back. Forget this, I'm gonna go have some fun." So they drop out of church and stop believing because they think God should operate on their time-table.

Billy said...

Buggg, I was a "soul sleeper" until Dr. Reagan pointed out in an article I read that Jesus said to one of the men on the cross "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise". That was enough to change my mind.

Thunder, you're exactly right...I've always wondered about that myself - why would we go thru 7 years of hell on Earth just to be taken away at the end and brought right back down? It's makes no sense at all. ANY POST-TRIBS WANT TO EXPLAIN THAT????

My last comments on stockpiling: Remember please I was commenting on the actual tribulation period, not the times leading up to it.

son of thunder said...

Stockpiling is a great idea. These people who say, "God'll help me." You're right, He may. But, we have to be practical as well.

A story was told of a man whose town flooded. He climbed up on his roof, and shortly, a man in a rowboat comes along and asks if he needs help. The man responds, "No. God will save me."

A while later the water is over his roof and up to his knees. A guy in a powerboat comes along and asks if he wants help. The man says, "No. God will rescue me."

Even later, the water is up to the man's neck, and a helicopter comes along. The man in the chopper asks if the man wants help, and he responds, "No. God will rescue me."

Later, the man is standing before God and says, "Lord, I believed you would help me. Why didn't you save me?"

And God said, "I sent two boats and a helicopter; what else did you want?"

Gideon said...

Has anyone seen this:

Obama blacks out image of Jesus during a Georgetown speech....

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Jesus-Missing-From-Obamas-Georgetown-Speech.html

son of thunder said...

Why do they need a picture of Jesus, when, supposedly, He's there giving the speech?

Anonymous said...

Hi Billy, Post-Tribber addressing your comment about being taken away and returning right back to earth with Christ, here is something from John Piper (you can check his stuff out on www.desiringgod.org) about this very issue: "The word for "meeting" the Lord in the air in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (apantesin) is used in two other places in the New Testament: Matthew 25:6 and Acts 28:15. In both places it refers to a meeting in which people go out to meet a dignitary and then accompany him in to the place from which they came out. One of these, Matthew 25:6, is even a parable of the second coming and so a strong argument that this is the sense of the meeting here in 1 Thess. 4:17-that we rise to meet the Lord in the air and then welcome him to earth as king."
So, that is a possibility that we will meet Him in the air and then come right back to earth with Him.
Regardless, it gets closer every day. I would love to not be here for the tribulation period, I just have never been convinced that will be the case & just want to prepare Spiritually, in case I will be here during that time.
Really enjoying this thread, it's a great discussion! :-)

Billy said...

Anon - thanks for your post - appreciate it. Can you answer one more question for me?

My gut reaction to post-tribs is that they aren't completely convinced their sins are covered by the blood of Christ therefore not worthy to escape the wrath of God during the tribulation (an Earthly purgatory, if you will). I based that on some post-tribs saying pre-tribs are "escapists".

Is my take wrong?

hartdawg said...

concerning the "one will be taken the other left" i am a pre-tribber but the context of that verse IS taken int judgement and left to enter the kingdom. that does not negate a pre-trib rapture tho. if i am mistaken back it up and i will alter my position.

Anonymous said...

Hi Billy - well, I can't answer your question for anyone but myself. So here goes: My faith in salvation is totally in the Blood of Jesus Christ - It's His work, His Grace that saves us, nothing we can do or earn or deserve. It's totally Jesus Christ! Thank the Lord He loves us!!!!! In my case, I look at history and see where sometimes God does let Christians suffer (Nero actually used them as torches, burning them alive, ugh!). He doesn't tell us He will keep us from the storms, but that our foundation in Him only will keep us through the storms. So, I just think that it's possible we might go through it, perhaps as witnesses as the world gets darker & more wicked... if the Holy Spirit is gone, how can the unsaved come to be saved? I don't know, obviously I don't have "the answer" - only God does, but I trust Him whether He takes us before, during or after the tribulation. I guess maybe I read "wrath" the wrong way, perhaps I am thinking of it as the Judgement or being cast into the lake of fire - I know He will keep us from that because of our faith in Lord Jesus. Either way, I don't label anyone (escapist or doom and gloom). Maybe some do, but we're all brothers & sisters in Christ so can't we just all get along??? (lol, seems like I'm always saying that to my kids! I can almost picture God telling us to Just Get Along!!)

Gideon said...

Anon,

I have a couple of questions for you too. Please don't think I'm attacking you or anything. I'm just curious about your answers.

In your opinion, what is the point of the 144,000 Jews sealed for protection by God in Revelation? Why is the church not sealed too?

Again, not debating I'm just curious on your thoughts.

Anonymous said...

Gideon, ya got me! :-) Seriously though, I will certainly not pretend to say that I know all of the answers, or even that I "know" post-trib is for sure - I don't. So, good question, and I have no idea (lol).

son of thunder said...

I'm pre-Trib and I really do hope that Jesus comes back before the Tribulation. I'm stressed out now! I don't think I could handle 7 years of constant warfare, destruction, famine and disease.

Sheesh, I've already developed a twitch in my right eyelid. After the Tribulation, I'd be just one big twitch.

Anonymous said...

Mabe you can help me. I am a so called adict. I have been using heroin among others for +-10yrs. Now still strugling with what harm i caused by only spreading the 'word' drugs are cool, and so destroying many other lives naming only one of the cultures sub culture, and the in ability to always except that 'i' can not always put everything into a box, knowing that every thing has a answer is hard to except. Why spread what u believe if u are not sure, cos that is what your question sounds like, though, i personaly saw it as a genuone(I am Afrikaans) belief. I personaly also am so afraid of diluted truths for that is what led me to spiritual numbness(adiction), and by that i tried to en-vision how would the enemies of Isreal be pulled out like as if a hook were in there(i am sure some of the cristian world too) mouths to gether against His nation. my humanly mind calculated confution or being mis led. so then(forgive me) but was Jesus the last profit, as to the great absens of profits for some time and only with John the baptist recently b4 Jesus. And after Jesus? none made it into God's word as far as i know except for desiples. So how could what a scotish girl saw in a vision some 200years or so ago be profetic, minipulated into our God's Word and more dilutions since the Romans started, more confusion, more sects, more difrent beliefs in christ and so more confusion. My belief is that the bunker to build is in Christ, not under concrete and earth for the batle is not in flesh and blood, but modern times is so confusing with a milion years and seven days. I mean cristian means to be in Christ, but the worlds coseption of christianity is so diverce and confusing, could be a goal in the perseption of deseption.
Friend, thank you for spreading the truth as far as we as the created can. But do the Christians have any idea how hard it is to believe in Christ as a non or believer when it is all so cofusing. What i can do today, is only strive to what God inspires me to, when i am not pre ocupied with the world's conceptions. Help.

son of thunder said...

Anonymous (Afrikaans), the best place to find out about Jesus is the Bible. The world has twisted what Jesus has said to fit into what we want Him to fit into.

To answer you question about Israel's enemies being pulled by a hook in the jaw, that means they will be forced. The nation God is talking to is Russia. We do not know for sure why, but one day Israel will make the Muslims very angry and Russia will be forced into a war because they are good friends with the Muslims. At that time Israel will be saved by God.

Jesus is not just a prophet, He is God in a human body. He took off His power like a shirt and put on a human body. It's very confusing that God would do that, but here is why: God loved mankind so much that He gave up His only Son to die and rise again so that whoever believes that Jesus is God and that He died and came out of the grave for our wrong-doing will not die themselves but will live forever with Him. - John 3:16 (my translation).

People have made a lot of religions from Jesus, but Jesus does not like religion. Religion keeps people away from Him. He wants to be friends with us, like He was with Adam and Eve.

I hope I have been a help to you. Anyone here will help you. But you can go here for more help. www.notreligion.com

Are you in Africa?

Vic said...

Cool post Nathan :) I've just been doing some updating at www.endoftheworld.net - Check out the Rapture Blog :)

---

What I think about all the Prep stuff is - There is like no way to Prep unless you have like a Million Dollars and can build a Bomb Shelter - lol's :)

However there are some small things we all can do - But think, If A Nuclear Bomb is Detonated while are in the Country - How do most people fight off Radiation???... (I did about 4 Years ago, buy family members a one-time Rad Meter, Iostat Iodine Pills, and Good Dust Masks that I think are good for Radiation)

But Like Jesus said, he who would save his life will lose it, and he who loseth his life for Jesus sake and the Gospel, the same will save/keep it for Eternity :)

To The Financial Planner and everyone - If you guys want to know what to do with your Money, send some To Me - Lol's :) So that you will be Storing up Treasure in Heaven!!! :) I'm wanting to travel for Full-Time Missionary Work, Here in The USA to Colleges, in doing Evangelism (Handing Out Tracts, is what I do :) I need an RV and about $500-$1,000 a month - lol's :)

I was just up at The University of Central Florida Today - right down the street practically, It's the 7th Largest University in the Country!! Handing out Tracts (Really web-cards that I have for endoftheworld.net)

God's call to all Christians is To Be a Fisher of Men :)

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God Bless Everyone!!! & Maranatha!!!!

Vic
www.bookofrevelationonline.com
www.thebemaseat.com - site soon, God Willing :)
www.endoftheworld.net - Rapture Blog too
www.rapturevillage.com - site soon, God willing too :)

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Anonymous said...

Wow! God is moving in a lot of people. I sure have enjoyed reading this blog! Thanks Nathan... I almost want to say we should all join "linkedin" and stay in touch haha! What a great bunch of people! I have always tried to be a 'prepared for the little things' type person, but to put it bluntly, there is no preparaton other than storing up treasures in Heaven that will truly benefit us. The Trib period will be so horrific I just do not think that there is anything worldly that will really sustain you, many will be tempted and turn to the mark of the beast and that my friends is the strong delusion we are warned of... The very best advice I can give is to Live for Christ, and should the need arise, Die for Christ... Your reward will be great... Keep looking up everyone...

In Christ - David

Vic said...

oh, I forgot the word, "we" above :)

Lord Have Mercy :)

Maranatha !!!!!!!!!

Vic :)

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(Good Post David :)

Junbuggg said...

And don't forget ya'll ( yeah, I'm a southern girl) if you are making "provisions" for hard times "leading up" to the trib.....don't forget to include your Bible and loads of information for those left behind in the rapture. I know it will be a horrible time once we are gone, but maybe the provisions and information you leave will sustain someone just long enough to accept Christ...before they have to die for Him.
Maranatha ~ Buggg

Gideon said...

Anon,

I wasn't trying to get you, I was just curious of your thoughts. Nice hearing from you, and you are not alone. None of us have all of the answers, only God knows for sure.

Anonymous said...

Hi Gideon, I know you weren't trying to get me - I was just being silly in my response, but I know sometimes e-mail can be misleading and you can't see that I was smiling. Absolutely no harm done :-) It's totally cool to see what other's opinions are, I myself am curious as well & that's why I've enjoyed this thread so much. For some reason a lot of the people I go to church with don't really seem to want to discuss "end times", although I did find a few last night & it was a great discussion!

It's just good that we pretty much all seem on the same page as far as Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior :-) That's what's truly important.

Anonymous said...

Anon - I have the same experience. Noone in my circle of Christian friends really wants to discuss these matters seriously. Why is this so??? TO my way of thinking Christ put way too many references to this topic & time period into His ministry for us to say this is not important. If we are not to study/discuss/think on this topic then Christ would have said something like "chill boys and girls, I'll take care of you and that is all you need to know". And I believe we should all be considering these things BEFOREHAND so we are not caught off guard, to me that is how people "lose" their faith so easily - they don't seem to understand that in this sinful world rain falls on the rightous and the wicked alike. And when bad things happen to good people some Believers tend to think this is some type of proof that God either is a hoax or He is an impersonable deity with no real concern for His creation. And human nature is to recoil & reject things that don't fit into our nice ordered little lives when we are caught off guard. But if we study this topic we will understand it is in God's control and He is not caught off guard so yes we can rest in His hands with absolute confidence. I think that is why He gave us the "heads up".

Enjoying a beautify spring day the Lord has made,
Rob from Alabama

son of thunder said...

Here's an issue I have with the post-Trib Rapture.

The Rapture is a signless event and no-one knows the day or hour of it, right? Well, if the Tribulation is 7 years (presuambly from the Hebrew calendar) long and starts from the signing of the peace treaty with anti-Christ, wouldn't you be able to figure out the time of the Rapture?

Gideon said...

Anon,

"It's just good that we pretty much all seem on the same page as far as Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior"

Exactly! Our opinion on the rapture and other end-times events are not issues of salvation.

That being said, we are commanded by Jesus to watch, and all of us that are here are following his command.

I know what you mean on not having many people to discuss prophecy with at church. Many pastors do not preach it, so most congregations aren't very interested in it. My pastor speaks only a little about end-times, but he does speak about the rapture. When asked about why he doesn't preach more on prophecy he says that God did not bless him to be a preacher of prophecy. I've thought of starting a Sunday School class centered on prophecy.

son of thunder said...

Fortunately, I attend a Pentecostal congregation where my pastor speaks of prophecy quite a bit (even though we have differing views on some things). He isn't afraid to talk about the Rapture and all things prophetic.

Prophecy is how God proves the Bible is true, which a lot of pastors do not believe anymore. Just last night, I was explaining to someone that everything he sees going on in the world, was foretold thousands of years ago. The formation of the Gog/Magog Alliance, the global currency movement, the global recession, etc. All predicted. All coming to pass.

Hallelujah!!!

G.M. said...

Regarding Christians at church not wanting to talk about End Times prophecies, I think it's because so many people have a perception that ANY talk of prophecy is crazy. So, even if they believe that the prophecies are true, they don't want to be lumped in with lunatics.

In addition to that, many Christians don't read their Bibles, so they aren't aware of just how much the Good Book talks about the future, in both Old and New Testaments. I was raised a Christian and have gone to Church almost all of my life, but did not start reading the Bible with any frequency until a couple of years ago---and I'm 37 years old! I only started studying the Bible more when I saw the dangerous turn America was taking in the last presidential election. I started to see that America is going to abandon Israel. This is something I thought would not happen in my lifetime: an American president turning his back on Israel.

son of thunder said...

I expect it from government, but for the church to turn her back on Israel... We should know better!

Donald Dolmus said...

I have a question for all of you about an idea that came to my mind a few months ago.

Some websites had prepared some prophetic material that supposedly is going to be used during the Tribulation period.

But when I read somewhere about the Internet control, I wondered if maybe those guys that are going to help the Antichrist control the masses are going to do a search with key words like: rapture, Jesus, pre-trib, antichrist, tribulation, etc. and erase all trace of pre-trib info?

I would like to know your opinions about this.

Thank you in advance for your comments

Anonymous said...

I am a mid-trib believer. I don't have a lot of scripture to back up my belief, and I'm trying to learn more and more from the scriptures each day, but my feeling is that God will need His people present during the first half of the Tribulation in order to minister to the people and help those in crisis find Him.

I am prepping modestly, and we have approximately 2 months worth of supplies. After that, faith in Him will carry us where we need to be.

Also, I am wholly prepared to carry my faith to a post-tribulation rapture. God has carried me too far as it is for me to forsake him in the final 7 years.

Junbuggg said...

Donald ~

In response to your concern about the internet being wiped clean of any and all things "Christian" during the tribulation....I absolutely believe it will be done. And quite possibly, immediately after the rapture takes place. After all, Satan's guy will know, I believe, exactly what happened to all these people and the quicker he can get rid of it, he will think, the better. As a "pre-tribber", and I've said this in past posts, I have and continue to print out material from the Internet that I feel would be helpful for someone left behind. Everyone here pretty much seems to be preparing provisions (food, water, etc.) for hard times...leading up to the tribulation. My husband and I have/are doing the same, but are also including a Bible & loads of material(including the "Jesus Came What's Next" letter from this website)to help whom ever comes across our "stash" accept Christ. As for the food provisions...well we all know nothing will truly be enough....but our hope is that it will sustain them long enough to read what we've left, and then accept Christ, before they have to die for Him.

Your sister in Christ ~ Buggg

Vic said...

Mid-Trib Believer - Don't worry about The Current Christians having to Evangelize during the Trib. -- There will be 144,000 Jewish Witnesses - maybe on Par with their Faith to that of the Apostle Paul, plus you will have the Two Witnesses, who will most likely be Preaching Jesus for 3-1/2 Years, then you will have the Golden Answer to Everything - An Angel in Heaven Proclaiming the Gospel to Every Person on Earth!!!!! During the Trib.

Maranatha :)

Vic

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Mitchell said...

Wow folks! I was away for a few days but this has been one busy place! :) I am definitely a post-trib believer and can share my view. I'll try to answer one at a time:

son of thunder writes, "The Rapture is a signless event and no-one knows the day or hour of it, right? Well, if the Tribulation is 7 years (presuambly from the Hebrew calendar) long and starts from the signing of the peace treaty with anti-Christ, wouldn't you be able to figure out the time of the Rapture?"Jesus said that we don't know the day or the hour of His return, which is used to support the doctrine of "imminency". But, does this support the idea of "imminency" as it is taught today? That verse is probably THE verse to support the doctrine of imminency. Without imminency there can be no pre-trib doctrine, and without the pre-trib doctrine there can be no imminency. It’s a bit of a circular Catch-22 codependancy. Show one of them to be incorrect, and both crumble.

Consider the following, if you will:

The words of Christ are in Matt. 24:36; 25:13 and Mark 13:32 when He said that no one knows the day or hour of His return, so according to the doctrine of imminency we can never know when Christ will return and it will be signless. Is what Jesus said here true? Everything that Christ says is truth, so yes. However, Revelation 3:3 presents a problem for the belief that "we can never know the day or hour". In my view I think that Revelation 3:3 alone, not to mention Matthew 24 and Luke 21 as a whole, are serious problems for the idea of an imminent return of Christ:

Revelation 3:3 says, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

This statement by Jesus is often overlooked, but it reveals something that is very significant and profound: IF we do not watch He WILL come upon us as a thief and we WILL NOT know what hour He will come upon us. If this verse is true, then the inverse must also be true: If we DO watch, He WILL NOT come upon us as a thief, and we WILL know. If this is correct, and if we watch and can know, then imminency and therefore pre-tribulationism crumbles.

Christ’s words in Revelation 3:3 are true just as His words in Matt 24:36. So, how could Jesus say that we could never know the day or the hour of His return and then imply that we could know in Revelation 3:3? Scripture cannot contradict Scripture so either one of the verses is wrong (which is not possible), or our understanding is wrong somewhere. It’s not hard to figure out which one it is.

Let’s look at them again: Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only". Are there other clues here that can help us to resolve the seemingly contradictory statements by Christ? Yes. If we look more closely we realize that it doesn’t say anywhere in this verse, nor in the context of Matthew 24 or elsewhere, that we can not know, and that we will never know. It only says, in the present tense, that we do not know when He will return. A few verses later in Matthew 24:42 Jesus tells us to WATCH for the signs that He just gave us. But why would Jesus tell us to watch for signs? Imminency says that the rapture is signless, right? The reason why Jesus tells us to watch is BECAUSE we do not know the day or hour of His return. Bingo! Jesus is telling us that because we do not know the day or hour of His return that we must watch for those signs that He just described, which is exactly what He alluded to in Revelation 3:3. This is also the exact same thing that Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, telling us that the Day of the Lord is our gathering unto Christ, and that that day — the Day of the Lord — will NOT overtake us as a thief IF WE WATCH. (Not to mention the fact that Paul also states that the apostasy and the revealing of the Antichrist will happen BEFORE our gathering unto Christ).

Both Jesus and Paul do not teach any imminent return and state without question that there will be signs preceding the Second Coming of Christ. We do not know the timing of His return, but if we watch, we CAN know.

Don't take my word for it, search the Scriptures! :)

If anyone has something specific they would like me to address, please feel free and I'll answer as best I can.

God bless...

son of thunder said...

I disagree, Mitchell. Jesus was speaking of one occurance. We can know by the signs that He is close to opening that door and coming to get us, as soon as the Father gives the go ahead. The signs He speaks of is the return of Israel to the land, the ethnic groups warring, the nations warring, the weather going all loopy, etc.

Revelation 3 is speaking to people who aren't even paying attention to what's going on. In context He is speaking to a dead church, a church which doesn't have the Spirit of God. A church who will wake up one day to the news that millions of people have vanished into thin air.

Both passages speak of the same time period: right before the return of Jesus, which could happen any minute.

Notice, in Revelation, that there is no mention of the church after chapter 3 until the very end of the book.

Don't take MY word for it, search the Scriptures! :)

But, I believe the post is about how you post-tribbers plan on preparing for hell on earth. Have you got your bomb shelter, nuclear-biological-chemical (NBC) equipment such as water purifiers, gas masks, chemical suits, and protective tents, and MREs yet?

You can go to www. uscav.com to get everything you need. :)

Anonymous said...

OK - checking in here on the debate. Nathan's question was what are the post-trib believers doing to prepare. I count myself in that camp, and the best I can say is that I've thought about stockpiling, getting a deer rifle to hunt, and so forth. I think unless you are prepared to high-tail it for the woods, or someplace like the deep forest of Borneo, you might as well make yourself comfortable and wait for the "Beast Police" to show up at your door. Then, compose what you will say as you prepare to meet Jesus, and pray for strength from the Holy Spirit not to crumble and take the mark. I know that sounds pretty brutal, but it's no worse than what first-century Christians faced during the 250 years or so of persecution. Blessed be all those who "love His appearing" regardless of pre, mid, or post !!!

Anonymous said...

Just to put this discussion in perspective if I could. Imagine that tomorrow large scale terrorist attacks goes down in DC, NYC, Boston, Philly, Chicago, and LA. Later Iran closes the Strait of Hormuz and several other bad deals go down. America goes through a time like we have never known. The Greatest Depression. Yet the Biblical Tribulation is (just guessing) still ten years away.

Now, lets say that I have prepared for hard times. I have gathered all of the tools, resources and knowledge that I need to hunt, garden, cook, heat my home, etc and as a result, I have plenty to live by and even to share. All I can say is that I will be sharing the Gospel and my life and goods with my neighbors. Meanwhile, those who say that any form of preparation is useless, because it will never be enough anyway, will all be starving to death and watching their families do the same. My simple appeal to all is to use the wisdom that is applicable to all aspects of life: Hope for the best and be prepared for the worst. Common sense. Love y'all.

son of thunder said...

Amen.

Junbuggg said...

Double AMEN!!

Mitchell said...

son of thunder writes, "Don't take MY word for it, search the Scriptures! :)"You got it brother! :)

son of thunder writes, "We can know by the signs that He is close to opening that door and coming to get us, as soon as the Father gives the go ahead. The signs He speaks of is the return of Israel to the land, the ethnic groups warring, the nations warring, the weather going all loopy, etc."There are more signs than just that. What are the other signs that He gives us, and when do they occur in terms of the eschaton?

son of thunder says, "Revelation 3 is speaking to people who aren't even paying attention to what's going on."Precisely. However, Jesus was very clear to say that IF they do not watch they will NOT know what hour He will come. He used the exact same language as Matthew 24:42. Why imply that they could know, if they could not know? I believe the answer is simple -- if they watch, they can.

son of thunder says, "Both passages speak of the same time period: right before the return of Jesus, which could happen any minute."In my view there are still signs that need to take place prior to the Second Coming. The "Obama Nation of Desolation" may have happened, but we've yet to see the Abomination of Desolation, for one. Have the sun, moon and stars darkened yet? Those signs have not started happening, yet Jesus says He will only return after those signs. The prophet Joel says that the cosmic signs happen before the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31). Therefore, the Day of the Lord is after the tribulation. Paul says that a great apostasy and the revealing of the "man of sin" will happen before we are gathered to Christ (2 Thess 2:3). When are we gathered? According to Paul, when the Day of the Lord comes (2 Thess 2:2). In Luke 21, after Jesus gives us the signs to watch for including the cosmic signs that happen immediately after the tribulation and the revealing of the Son of Man coming in power and great glory, it is then that Jesus tells us to look up "for your redemption draws near" (Luke 21:28), not before. Note that Ephesians 4:30 says that we are sealed "for the day" or "unto the day" of redemption. Also notice Peter says that "when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Pet. 4:13). All of this (and much, much more) points to a post-trib Second Coming and post-trib rapture.

son of thunder said, "Notice, in Revelation, that there is no mention of the church after chapter 3 until the very end of the book."The book of Revelation is an epistle, so it was written for the Church. As for the word "church" not being used after Revelation 3, I have read that argument before and I think that it is a pretty weak one, in my opinion, that some make to support a pre-trib idea. The church isn't mentioned in Mark, Luke, John, Galatians, Ephesians, 2 Peter, 1 John and 2 John either, and not until the 16th chapter of Romans, so I guess if Revelation doesn't apply to the church because the word "church" isn't used after 3:22 then using that logic a large portion of the entire New Testament doesn't apply to the church either.

The word "saint" or "saints" however is used 59 times in the New Testament, referring to believers in Christ (ie, the church). This term is used repeatedly in Revelation for the church as well. For instance, Christians are directly mentioned in Revelation 14:12 in fact, saying "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus", and Revelation 20:4-5 says in no uncertain terms that those who do not worship the beast or receive the mark and are killed for "the witness of Jesus" will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years. They are raised at the first resurrection (Rev 20:5), which is after the tribulation. The dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them (raptured). If the first resurrection is after the tribulation, then there is no resurrection before it, and therefore no rapture before the tribulation. The only way for the pre-trib teaching to get around this is to separate the first resurrection into "phases", which is not supported in Scripture at all.

Mitchell said...

son of thunder says, "But, I believe the post is about how you post-tribbers plan on preparing for hell on earth. Have you got your bomb shelter, nuclear-biological-chemical (NBC) equipment such as water purifiers, gas masks, chemical suits, and protective tents, and MREs yet?"Nathan Jones asks, "1 Do you feel you'll be specially protected during the Tribulation (with the world being annihilated and believers being massacred - Rev. 7:9-17), and if so, how?

2 What preparations are you currently making for living in the Tribulation?"
I may be post-trib, but unlike most pre-tribbers I do not share the view that Antichrist will control every square inch of the earth, or that the planet will be annihilated (besides, how can people "make merry and send gifts one to another" near the end of the tribulation per Rev 11 if the planet is annihilated?). For one, there are nations who resist Antichrist and fight against him (Daniel 9:26 has Antichrist fighting wars right up until the end). In fact, Jordan for some reason does not come under Antichrist's control (Dan 11:41), and even Egypt resists him (Dan 11:42) but is defeated, so that in and of itself is proof that he does not have global dominion. I am of the opinion that North America, for the most part, will be amongst those who resist Antichrist and fight him (I do believe that Islamic terrorism will be a big problem however). Since prophecy is Israel-centric and Middle East-centric, and since all nations that are listed in the Bible as being destroyed at Christ's Second Coming are Islamic today, the AC's ten-nation coalition will be relegated to the Middle Eastern Islamic world.

I've said more about my reasoning behind this here:

http://www.lamblion.us/2009/02/global-or-local-antichrist.html (my first post is Feb. 6).

At this time, I do not feel led to prepare myself for any sort of chemical/nuclear/biological attack, or to stockpile anything for any such eventuality. Other post-trib believers may have a different opinion. My main focus is to prepare myself spiritually with the Word of God, and to share the Truth with as many as possible during the tribulation as the world is thrust in the face of lies and deceptions. Keeping the Word of God will protect you spiritually. Know what you believe, why you believe it, and remain in Christ Jesus so that when the shaking begins you are not one of the leaves that falls from the tree. Many people will have a lot of questions, so we need to know what we stand for and why, and we must put on the whole armor of God. If I die at some point at the hands of Islamic terrorists, then so be it, but I hope to be among those who are alive and remain to see the return of our King in Power and Great Glory. In that day, I will be looking up indeed.

I should mention that there are many who interpret that Revelation 3:10 somehow guarantees them protection from the tribulation by removing them from the earth in a pre-trib rapture. Rev 3:10, "Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, that shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Jesus says "keep thee from", not "remove thee from", right? The Greek for "keep thee from" in Revelation 3:10 is "tereo ek" and is the exact wording used in John 17:15:

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

The Greek "tereo" means "to attend to carefully; take care of; to guard; to reserve; to keep, one in the state in which he is" and does not mean to remove from the earth but to rather watch over during the time of testing. Jesus even prayed in John 17:15 "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world". Revelation 3:10 is saying that we will be kept from the hour of temptation by being watched over, guarded, during this time and not removed from it. Many of us have children that attend public school, but we keep them from false teachings such as evolution, right? How? We watch over them and keep them grounded in the Truth of Scripture, not by removing them from school.

Let's look at some other translations and how they've rendered Revelation 3:10:

Rev 3:10, "Because you kept my Word in passionate patience, I'll keep you safe in the time of testing that will be here soon, and all over the earth, every man, woman, and child put to the test." (MSG)

Rev 3:10, "Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world." (NLT)

Rev 3:10, "You have obeyed my word and been patient. So I will keep you safe in the time of trouble which will come all over the world. It will test the people who live on earth." (WE)

Rev 3:10, "You obeyed my message and endured. So I will protect you from the time of testing that everyone in all the world must go through." (CEV)

Now, is this being watched over physical in nature, or something else?

The Greek word for "endure" or "persevere" is "hypomone" (G5281) which means "steadfastness" or "steadfast waiting for" or "patiently enduring". Per the context we see that "perseverance" is closely related to the "hour of testing," which is "peirasmos" (G3986) and means to "examine" or "prove". Peirasmos is frequently translated, "to tempt" which is important because Scripture tells us that it is Satan who tempts. 1 Thess 3:5 reads "For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter (Satan) might have tempted you, and our labor should be in vain". James 1:2,12 tell us "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials (peirasmois). Blessed is the man that perseveres (hypomone) under trial (peirasmon)." In the next verse James says that God "does not tempt anyone." This refers to the "hour of testing" in Rev 3:10 using the identical Greek word: "The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer... Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing (peirasmos), as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Peter 4:7,12,13). As previously mentioned, Christ reveals His Glory after the tribulation (Matt 24:30). Moreover, in 2 Peter 2:9 we read "then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation (peirasmos), and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment." In both cases the believer is present during the peirasmos and not removed from it.

So, even though there are those who are killed during the great tribulation they are not kept safe physically per Rev 3:10, but are kept from the deception and temptation of the evil one during this time. Many will die "for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" because they will not have "worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands." The soul is more important than the body. The protection is spiritual, not physical.

Anonymous said...

Keep in mind that if you stock up all of these items, and are raptured before you need them, then someone is likely to come along and find them. It may be just the kind of a blessing to lead them to Christ. Surely there would be bibles in your home as well. Just a thought.

Anonymous said...

Mitchell -

Obamanation of Desolation?? Caught my eye with that phrase!!

Anonymous said...

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loki said...

The best way to be prepared for any tribulation is to get as close to the Lord as possible and trust him implicitly. In that sense, it doesn’t matter whether you’re a pre-tribber expecting Him any second or a preterist. There are only so many supplies you can store up for yourself let alone anyone else who might be hungry.

Regarding Rev 3:10, I’ve read compelling arguments that the intent of the language is that the Philadelphians will be taken out from the hour of temptation – not protected through it. Even some of the leading pre-wrath guys have gone against Rosenthal’s original argument on the basis of the language and have changed their thinking. They now argue that the church is taken out of the period of the Day of the Lord.

I think many underestimate the gravity of the tribulation. Also it seems to me that the Antichrist’s outreach will be global even if it may not be exhaustive. Rev 13:7-8 seems to be pretty conclusive

motherofmany said...

I am joining this discussion late after just finding your site today. I want to say, though, that labels such as ‘trolling’ make anyone with a different view seem like a heretic. Perhaps that is one reason for the small number of those who are answering the actual question put forth.

I am not a pre-trib believer. For one, the book of Revelation gives so many warnings to the believers about what will happen. The worship of the beast and the taking of the mark are pointless prophecies if there isn’t someone left to refuse these things. Prophecy is, essentially, a warning. Fulfilled prophecy does verify the veracity of the Word, but the prophecies themselves serve as a signpost to us. When we see X, then Y is about to happen. If the church is raptured away, there will be no one left who either knows the warnings nor cares about avoiding them.

Secondly, there are many examples in the Bible of people who were in the midst of wrath but were protected. Noah built an ark. He was not taken away during the flood, but kept during the flood by God himself. The Israelites experienced the beginnings of the plagues in Egypt, and then were spared right in the midst of Egypt when the wrath came. Many, many believers were eaten by lions or crucified or torn apart on torture devices in the Dark Ages. Just as is described in Revelation, many a time in history people have been forced to choose between denying Christ and death. Why would the current church be spared what the rest of the faithful endured? I do believe we will experience tribulation along with the world. Some of us will survive the physical torment, and some will not. But why does that contradict scripture- we are told not to fear those who kill the body.

As to preparing, the most important preparation is having oil in our lamps. Too many will be caught unprepared and will give a million and one reasons why it wasn’t their fault, but we are warned over and over to be ready. We need to be in the Word, in prayer, and constantly examining ourselves for the time to come. As far as the physical side of things, I do believe we are told that we will not be able to buy and sell without the Mark so that we may prepare. Certainly we cannot foresee every problem, and there will be those who come to steal and to kill, but simply saying we will be preserved by our faith does not account for Joseph and Noah and even Joseph and Mary who were given warnings and told to be ready in order to escape.

I have heard some argue for a mid-trib rapture based on what happened in Egypt, and others on a post-trib but pre-wrath rapture based on the same events. I personally believe we will be here for the duration.

Anonymous said...

1Th 5:3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

There's no us in that verse.

Luk 21:34 "Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap;

Luk 21:35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.

Luk 21:36 "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

"all those who dwell on the earth."

Nathan Jones said...

Motherofmany, while I disagree with your interpretation on the timing of the Rapture, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on it and your advice that we should be getting spiritually ready for the hardships of God's wrath upon the world.

For information on why I believe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the best argument for the timing of the Rapture, please visit this past article series or article from our main website.

Anonymous said...

Ezekial 20 describes the last days and also mentions 'bamah' then says 'and it is still true today'. Why would it be written like that? A goof? I doubt it. The bamah is all the idolatry which is sitting on the high place right before the end.

samwise said...

I am having a difficult time understanding Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. I really want to believe in a pre even mid rapture. But I can't help think that the "European Neighborhood Policy" 7 year treaty that went into effect on Jan. 1 2007 negates the possibility of a "pre" scenario. The policy will be reviewed in June of 2010. Ya'll do the math. Then turn to Dan 9:27

samwise said...

to "motherofmany" I myself recently made the exact same arguement and the same recommendation to my fellow christians. I have suggested a weekly prayer meeting both local and on-line entitled "Lamp Oil". No one truly knows but we can certainly read the sign of the times and prepare our hearts along with personal provisions for the worst case scenario.

Nathan Jones said...

European Neighborhood Policy? It provides no covenant between Israel and the Antichrist, so isn't the Dan. 9:27 covenant that marks the beginning of the upcoming 7-year Tribulation.

Anonymous said...

When I first heard about the ENP my ears pricked up. As I look at the situation now I’m convinced it’s not the real prophetic deal despite Javier Solana and “Recommendation 666”. There’s still no Temple and not even a hint of a tent being set up for sacrifices. There’s still no way the global Islamic world would allow a Temple to be built on “their” sacred Mount let alone permit an infidel to pray there, and not enough desire from the Jews to make it happen. Maybe a Gog-Magog type conflict needs to occur first? I don’t know! At the end of this year we come to three years of the supposed covenant with nothing really happening and the clock’s ticking towards mid week.

samwise said...

reading the ENP in its' entirety in relation to Israel...UUHHH!! There is much to do w/ "security" issues here w/ specific dates. See EUROPEAN NEIGHBOURHOOD AND PARTNERSHIP
INSTRUMENT
ISRAEL
STRATEGY PAPER
2007-2013
&
INDICATIVE PROGRAMME
2007-2010. (to start, as there are other areas in the ENP which pertain to Israel as well) I am trying to re-locate U.N.recommendations on "animal rights" that will "put an end to Sacrifice" (probably before it starts.) Now...as for the Temple, All the specific instruments and articles needed for the Temple including the 71 member Sanhedrin are in place waiting for Temple construction. W/ our technology today, we can construct large buildings "off-sight" and erect speedily. Here's what really intrigues me and dominates much of my thoughts...Jesus needed to bring ALL prophesy to fruition. When we do the math, the odds of fulfilling even 10 of them is mind staggering, let alone 300. The chances or odds are greater than the human mind can conceive. The chances that there was "another potential Messiah in the same time frame, is truly inconceivable. Daniel gave the Exact time for Messiah!! End time prophecy is the same as first advent. It too comes w/ parameters and timelines. I think we all can agree on Israel becoming a "nation in a day" started Gods' prophetic clock. What is the probability that in these parameters that another could arise that fits prophecy so well, as Javier Solano, the E.U. as Rome revised and specific agreements with "7 yr" time frames as does the ENP??? What would those "probability" numbers look like??. In any case, we all need to be living right and praying hard so that we may be found by our Master to be good and faithful servants with our oil lamps filled daily, loving all as much as possible. All input is welcomed and appreciated.

Anonymous said...

I don’t want to comment about mathematical probabilities because I’ve seen too many bad examples of this. While Israel has signed the ENP, in my opinion it doesn’t fit Dan 9:27. Perhaps it will provide the template for the future covenant. At this stage, while Solana’s name appears here and there in EU documents and he’s been involved in all manner of discussions with Russia, Iran, Israel etc, he doesn’t match Rev 6:2. None of his attempts at diplomatic breakthroughs have yielded any real results. Nothing of the first four seals is occurring yet. We’ve had global economic problems and disease scares but an objective review of history will show that it has been much worse in the past. If Daniel’s 70th week began in Jan 07 then that means we have about a year to mid week and the Abomination of Desolation. Any talk about building a Jewish Temple on Islam’s site will be met with worldwide Muslim condemnation and Israel makes no effort to pursue that agenda. True, the Sanhedrin have been in place for a long time and a Temple can be constructed quickly but, given the time frame and the lack of interest by Israel as a nation, I think this isn’t going to happen before mid 2010, even if the Temple is constructed in an area other than the Mount.

Anonymous said...

“So, even though there are those who are killed during the great tribulation they are not kept safe physically per Rev 3:10, but are kept from the deception and temptation of the evil one during this time. Many will die "for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" because they will not have "worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands." The soul is more important than the body. The protection is spiritual, not physical.”

That’s an interesting paraphrase of Rev 3:10. Had John wanted to convey what you argue (Gundry’s position) he could have used the following expressions, but didn’t.

tereo en = To keep in.
tereo dia = to keep through.
aireo ek = to take out, or sozo ek = to save out.
aireo apo = to take from.

A Note on Revelation 3:10

The Rapture in Revelation 3:10

NASB 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

LITV Because you kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which is going to come on all the habitable world in order to try those dwelling on the earth.

NET Because you have kept my admonition to endure steadfastly, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

YLT `Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

DontBeFooled666 said...

Wow, this calls for a very thoughtful response. There is so much that could be said. I pray the Lord will guide my hand to be concise, yet cover what is important.

I believe that we will be raptured very late in the Tribulation--at the return of Christ, when He comes to pour out the wrath of God.

The most important thing is to prepare one's heart and mind. Open you mind, set aside everything you've previously heard, pray for wisdom from God and dig into the Word. The Word is alive and the Holy Spirit will teach you much and answer many concerns as you read and question.

Once my mind and heart were open, and I was praying regularly for wisdom and understanding, the Lord began to change me. I now have a boldness and a resolve that I didn't have before. I understand that I may be one of many martyrs during the Tribulation. That would be ok, because I think it can be easier to die than to live.

However, for the sake of my family (adult) I asked Him to let me stay if I could be of value to them. I asked that He not allow me to be tortured though.

The next day, I awoke frozen and in severe pain from head to toe. The Lord began telling me what to do to overcome the pain. He shared with me that He wants those in that situation to learn to overcome, in His power, rather than expect to be rescued. We all really need to learn to live in His strength and power!

So, I set that fear aside and trust that He will be there for me in that hour too.

I have turned to what I believe He would have me to do now. What an honor to live in the days that consummate so many of the prophecies in God's Word! And what an honor that He would give me a place and part in His plan for these latter days! I am now studying the Bible & current events to understand what is happening, and sharing, via the web, what God reveals to me.

Also, I am setting aside non-hybrid seeds, food, water & other necessary things, as well as printing out pages to compile a notebook of helpful information.

I plan to teach my neighbors how they can survive, when the time comes. For all of my life, up until now, I have lived for myself--now I hope to live out the purpose for which God placed me here.

I do not have time to cover every contingency, nor can I afford to since I live on a disability check. I try to be wise with the time and resources I do have available, to set aside what I can.

However, it has also crossed my mind that His will for what I am saving up may be that I share it with others rather than use it myself. When I'm confronted with these choices, I tend to give to others in need, reasoning that I have God to care for me, and they don't. He can certainly provide for me, through whatever means. I just resolve to live by faith.

I have strongly felt that I should NOT advise others what to do to prepare--other than to say that it's always a good idea to have some food and water set aside. I believe God has an individual plan for each of us. It is important that we each seek Him for wisdom as to what we should do.

He has given me a stronger spirit of faith than I had before-if you don't have enough faith, ask Him for more. Then resolve to set fear aside and live by that faith.

Anonymous said...

Tereo ek

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil.

Tereo ek in that verse refers to the EVIL (one) and not to the taking them out of the world. The Lord is praying for His disciples to be kept out of the evil (one). There’s a difference. And isn’t that the status quo for any genuine Christian now?

Applied to Rev 3:10 we would read, “Because you kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you OUT of the HOUR of trial which is going to come on ALL the habitable world in order to try those dwelling on the earth.” Literal Translation.

How is one kept OUT of the HOUR of testing unless one is removed from its proximity? Why would Jesus even mention not taking them out of the world unless there was some future promise relating to it in the first place? The request seems redundant unless there was a promise and yet trite for a momentary lifting up and returning as in a postTrib rapture. See John 14:2-3. No, the Father’s House is in heaven not in a Temple on earth in this context.

James Cabell ll said...

Well I do believe that the rapture will be at Jesus' return which is always mentioned to be at the end of the trib. unless there is some kind of secret return of Christ befor the end that isn't mentioned in the bible but, I believe that if we are here during the tribulation that those who have the seal of the spirit and have been cleansed by the blood of Christ we will be supernaturally protected. Remember that we arn't appointed to wrath and the tribulation is for the wicked. Also remember that in Exodus God says "when I see the blood I will pass over you". I believe that the exodus is a real historical happening but also symbolic for the coming end with Egypt being the world and Israel being the church or the believers. We could prepare by stocking food and independent methods of preparing it,weapons for hunting if needed, solar panel energy (which is available), means of attaining good clean water (http://www.ecoloblue.com/home-office) (like this one that pull water out of the air through dehumidification then filters it and makes it pure to drink), Some experience in natural and alternative medicines ( www.GCNM.com ), gold or silver(specifically bullion or troy from a recognized refinery like matthey on englehardt), and most importantly making sure you are sealed with the spirit and you have a few bibles hidden in great hidding places incase our houses are raided and our bibles taken and made illegal.
Even if you are a pre-tribulationist it isn't a 100% sure thing that the rapture is befor the tribulation so just be prepared anyway. God bless you all and sound the trumpet in zion prepare the world Love

Anonymous said...

The problem with pre-trib belief is that God and Jesus spent way to much time preparing the world for what is going to happen during the trib. God said that we will see these things unfold. He also says that when the plagues fall, that they are to harm a hair on the head of those who have his seal. So that says we will be here. nfact we will be here for the 6 vails of destruction. Then just before the seventh vile which is the one that will consume the earth and all evil on it, we will be taken out of here. God would not spend so much time teaching us how to be prepaired if we were not going to see it. I personaly believe that pre trib folks are that way cause they are in denial based on fear and most will be decieved. So please pray and seek the truth. God says to stock the store house and flee unto the mountains in those days because the cities shall be destroyed. And the trib is not 7 years. It will be between 3-5 months. God says that "the days shall be shortened for if they are not even the very elect will be decieved". So prepare yourself with about 5 months of food and water and faith. God said " If I be for you who can be againts you" and "no weapon fashioned can harm you". But it says use wisdom in all things and be prepaired for what is coming. God Bless you all.

Kendall said...

The rapture happens at the second coming (1 Thess. 4:13-18;2 Thess 1 & 2; 1 Cor. 15:23). Christians should prepare to face the tribulation because it could be in our life time. Read Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation. In Rev 14 we are warned about not taking the mark of the beast and then we read, Revelation 14:12 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." Being prepared is thinking through what the Bible warns us about and persevering despite many hardships. However, many Christians have never thought through any of this because they have been told they will be out of here.
http://alwaysreformingtoscripture.blogspot.com/2007/05/believers-are-found-throughout-entire.html

Anonymous said...

”I personaly believe that pre trib folks are that way cause they are in denial based on fear and most will be decieved.”

Seriously? Or maybe their decision is based on study. It’s just so easy for people to point the finger and call someone a coward while taking a holier than thou attitude. If you think you’re better placed to face tribulation because you expect it then you may be deluded. Your resolve should be founded in Christ, not your own power.

No, Rev 3:10 isn’t about protection within because there will be martyrdom. Read Rev 20:4.

No, there is a gathering at the end of the tribulation but it relates to the re-gathering of Israel not the rapture. See Deut 30:4 and a host of other Old Testament prophecies that relate to it.

Anonymous said...

Wow. I must be in the minority, but I'm beginning to believe more and more in the post-trib rapture. It's just a feeling in me that is growing more and more. However, I hope that those of you who believe in the pre-trib rapture are correct!

In regards to preparations, I'm preparing more spiritually as I truly believe my physical death will be due to martyrdom. But, praise be to God that I will see Him face to face shortly after that Earthly death! I am also going back to school to get my nursing degree so if I do have the privilege of doing more on this Earth to further the kingdom of heaven, I can assist other Christians who will not be able to get medical attention. My parents have bought some land to grow a garden and are stockpiling food and ammunition. Other than that, I don't think there is much else to do except praise God that He will ultimately win in the end!

DontBeFooled666 said...

awesome!!

Anonymous said...

“Being prepared is thinking through what the Bible warns us about and persevering despite many hardships. However, many Christians have never thought through any of this because they have been told they will be out of here.”

Kendall, you’re no doubt aware that the relationship between the verses you quoted has been debated by pre-Tribulationists. If one believes pre-Trib in order to escape tribulation; they are wrong. We’re not promised exemption from tribulation. The debate often comes down to when God’s wrath occurs. The only way to be prepared is to maintain our relationship in Christ.

You link to James White’s website on your blog. White is a 5 point Calvinist so I presume you may be also. If that’s the case then the elect were foreordained and will persevere through the tribulation, if they experience it. Those who weren’t, will not. Correct?

Nathan Jones said...

The Bible also gives us a lot of clues that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation (Isa. 26:19-21; Mal. 3:17; Lk. 21:36; Jn. 14:1-14; I Cor. 15:51-58). Those along with the following verses showing the Church is exempt from God’s wrath can encourage the believer as Paul said to know we will not have to endure those years (1 Thes. 4:13-18 and 1 Thes. 1:10; 5:9; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 5:6; Col. 3:4; Rev. 3:10).

Anonymous said...

Nathan, Rev 3:10 and where the wrath of God obviously occurs, clinches it for me.

I've yet to hear a viable argument that excludes God's wrath from ALL the seals.

rg

Anonymous said...

Besides preparing supplies, don't you think persecuted people should go into hiding ? Because it seems many have said that some
ways to survive is Fight, Flight, or Faith ? They said you should
escape into non - populated towns to prevent the persecutors tracking you,
isn't it so ?

Anonymous said...

Concerning preparation for tribulation, possibly you (or people that you might know) are interested in "geocaching". In Brother Yun's The Heavenly Man I read of a Chinese Christian burying a bible six feet under the ground, presumably during the Cultural Revolution, and later, when he felt bidden by God, he dug it up and sent it to Brother Yun.

That suggests the idea of burying Bibles, and related helps (like commentaries or "life application" versions) in a capsule that might help finders who came across it during a future persecution, during which such items had become unavailable. It would need a sealed container, so that air and moisture couldn't enter and ruin the contents.

However, the details would not put on the internet, because in a tribulation they would have to be hidden from persecutors. Thus the location (or geocache coordinates) would be passed only to trusted people, after the manner of family secrets,to be used only if and when needed.

Anyway, there's an idea, if it commends itself to yourselves or Christians interested in this kind of "geocaching".