Wednesday, November 25, 2009

Stand Fast and Draw the Line

Nathan JonesPDFBy Nathan Jones

One of the most powerful movies I ever saw as a child was on the life of Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi. This movie was hardly a hit with the elementary crowd, especially with blockbusters like Star Wars and Indiana Jones capturing young imaginations at the time. But, those movies didn't influence me like Gandhi's life story of nonviolent resistance. Luke Skywalker never took down the Galactic Empire by initiating mass work stoppages such as Gandhi initiated on the British. And, Indiana Jones never defeated the Nazi armies by going on a fast until they relented and begged him to eat something, as the Muslims and Hindus did during their civil war.

Never by gun or by army did Gandhi make huge institutions stand down, but by passive deeds alone. Now, here was a man who could move mountains by merely being inconvenient. Such influencing power was something worth admiring!


Today's Civil Rights Movement

In this modern day and age, we can look back and rejoice that similar social injustices were defeated by the same passive resistance methods. Men like William Wilberforce peacefully took down slavery in the British Empire. Men like Martin Luther King, Jr., marched until racial equality was recognized. Women rallied until their voices were finally heard at the voting booth. Again and again throughout history discrimination was stood up to and forced back by men and women willing to get a black eye and even give up their lives so that justice would prevail. And, behind every Western movement for moral justice were Christians standing on the Word of God.

Every age battles some form of oppression, and for this generation the battle goes on, though the causes may be different. While the Puritans fled the Old World for the New to escape religious persecution, today there is no place to escape the growing intolerance of those hostile towards the Christian worldview. In a culture that supposedly values "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," the unborn go without a voice, slaughtered by the millions for the only crime of being inconvenient. The very institution of marriage between one man and one woman that God ordained is being corrupted through divorce, sexual promiscuity and apathy, with the historically proven end-result the demise of the nations. And liberty, the freedoms generations have bled and died for, are being handed over in return for false security and slavery to our own selfish desires. These are the forms of oppression this generation must stand up to, or lose every God-ordained freedom that we hold dear.


The Manhattan Declaration

Tired of government regulations telling Christians what they can publicly share from the Bible, tired of threats to force Christian organizations to comply with immoral requirements, tired of seeing the destruction of the foundational family unit, tired of the genocide of our own children going on in our communities — over 150 Christian leaders have proclaimed that enough is enough. They have finally stood up, drawn the line in the sand, and proclaimed that they will not budge where God's moral law is concerned. They have declared that they will certainly engage in nonviolent civil disobedience if forced to render to Caesar what is God's.

Chuck Colson (Founder of The Chuck Colson Center for Christian Worldview), Robert George (Professor, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence, Princeton University) and Timothy George (Professor, Beeson Divinity School, Samford University) have drafted a pointed document called "The Manhattan Declaration: A Call of Christian Conscience."

The declaration's purpose is to join Christians across denominational lines to:

"...to embrace our obligation to speak and act in defense of these truths. We pledge to each other, and to our fellow believers, that no power on earth, be it cultural or political, will intimidate us into silence or acquiescence. It is our duty to proclaim the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in its fullness, both in season and out of season."

The truths the Declaration affirms and defends are:

  1. the sanctity of human life
  2. the dignity of marriage as the conjugal union of husband and wife
  3. the rights of conscience and religious liberty

Since The Manhattan Declaration's release on November 20, 2009, over 150 Christian leaders such as Randy Alcorn, Kay Arthur, Dr. James Dobson, Dr. Jack Graham, Jerry Jenkins, Josh McDowell, Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., Dr. J.I. Packer, Joni Eareckson Tada and others have signed the declaration. They have gone on record saying that they would be willing to stand up for what is right no matter what the consequences.

"Because we honor justice and the common good, we will not comply with any edict that purports to compel our institutions to participate in abortions, embryo destructive research, assisted suicide and euthanasia, or any other antilife act; nor will we bend to any rule purporting to force us to bless immoral sexual partnerships, treat them as marriages or the equivalent, or refrain from proclaiming the truth, as we know it, about morality and immorality and marriage and the family."

Tens of thousands of passionate people have joined them in drawing the line in the sand by signing The Manhattan Declaration. I was number 87,934. I encourage every believer in Christ to make a stand for what is moral, to give no more ground to what is unjust, and to defend what is sacred by also signing The Manhattan Declaration.

Remember that Gandhi through passive resistance expelled the British Empire from India. And Jesus Christ, without lifting a sword, defeated the Satanic empire and brought salvation to the believing world. There is power in peacefully standing up for what is right.

Sign The Manhattan Declaration!

44 comments:

hartdawg said...

well, i gladly signed it cuz i`m fed up with these radical marxists who`ve taken over the country. but will this do any good? surely the government doesnt give a rip what right winged fanatics like us think. i fear it may be just another petition. (if i`m wrong let me know cuz i seriousely hope i am) will this really do anything?

Laura said...

Personally, I don't think I'll sign this petition. If I'm going to be persecuted for something, I feel it should be for loving Jesus and telling others of the gospel (translated as "the hilariously good news") of Jesus and His accomplishments on the cross.

I agree that many things the government is doing today is wrong, but did God call me out to enforce moral principals? No, He set me apart for a relationship with Him, and that relationship (NOT moral standards) is what I want to share with others. After all, if they have a relationship with Jesus, their behavior will change.

Furthermore, if you look at the government in existence when Jesus lived, it was comparable (or worse) to today, and yet, Jesus did not try to "change" the system.

Just my 2 cents worth, and no one has to agree with me!

weave said...

I signed it. Christians in ancient Rome were martyred because they refused to bow to Caesar, not because they loved Jesus. Loving Jesus and sharing His love with others is not really a threat to anyone including the state. It's His Lordship and the proclamation of His kingdom that threatens people.

Anonymous said...

I will sign this. Why? because taking a stand is what we are called to do. Elijah did,Daniel did,the apostles did, and first century Christians did. They all even died for moral standards outlined by God in his word And confirmed by Christ in his life.

Standing for righteousness and living righteously as Christ did expresses the gospel even more than just stating the gospel to unbelievers.

We may not be successful in Changing the hearts of politicians who have an evil agenda but they are not who we do it for. You stand up against evil as a witness to Christ and his word.

DianefromKY

Anonymous said...

101 Lies Taught in Church Every Sunday

Lie #48: We need to speak out against sin

http://gracewalkministries.blogspot.com/2008/02/lie-48-we-need-to-speak-out-against-sin.html

Nathan Jones said...

After watching the Lies video I had to comment on Steve McVey's site:

"If the Church doesn't stand up to the tide of sin then who will? The Holy Spirit - yes - but He works through the Church. Our witness for Christ is hypocritical and ineffective if we don't stand up for what is morally right.

Steve, what you are advocating is a cop-out of our moral duty to take a stand against evil."

Anonymous said...

I signed the petition when I saw it and before Nathan mentioned it here, but that is me. And I agree with Hartdawg about whether it will be useful or effective, the society in which and the gov't we have is in a downhill moral slide and is racing to destruction. But, I wanted to add my support to what they are doing because I believe we need to stand up and be heard.

Laura & anon, I hate to always be the contrarian, I generally avoid conflict. But I am one who disagrees, yet again :). On one thing we agree, Christ's mission was to save me from my sins. No, he didn't come to change the social or political order, He had a different agenda. Agreed? But that does not mean He doesn't want us as Believers to engage the world, the popular culture in which we live, or to stand for Biblical values. We have a different mission.

Here's my 2 cents worth. We live in a sinful, fallen world in which there truly are evil consequences to sin that threatens to overtake us in various forms. Satan is a lion that is roaming the earth looking for whom he may devour and he is serious about our destruction. The outworking of this is that not only are there eternal consequences to my sin (already paid for by Jesus) but there are temporal, earthly judgments I must face for my sin (eg. if I lie to my boss I get fired, if I cheat on my wife I lose her trust etc). And God does not always relieve us of those consequences even after we have put our faith and trust in Him. And in part it is those earthly judgments that I want to warn people about, and how can I warn them if I do not stand against the un-Biblical activities that our culture is embracing. We should be willing to say hey guys this is wrong and our nation should not be tolerant or embrace this sin, it will have bad consequences for all so I am willing to actively oppose this in the public arena. I don't want others to suffer because despite their bravado and cavalier attitude of rebellion against God they still get physically, emotionally and spiritually hurt by the sin they actively and purposefully engage in.

Rob from Alabama

Pastor Adam Gislason said...

Nathan,

I would encourage you and your readers to do their homework on Chuck Colson. While he may have started out well, he has really gone down the ecumenical road of false unity (unity for the sake of unity vs. unity in the truth) in recent years (ie-Evangelicals and Catholics Together-ECT-with guys like J.I. Packer).

I would simply ask this: Why are we, people of the Reformation, so quick to join back with the Catholics? Let’s face it-not much has changed since Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to their wall. While the Manhattan Declaration may look good on the surface (that’s deception hitting on all cylinders) with emphasis on life, marriage and religious liberty (all good things within themselves and that I personally believe in)-we as Christians are commanded by the Lord not join together with those teaching false doctrines. Clearly, the Catholic church is teaching false doctrines.

The Bible clearly says that we are to mark and avoid false teachers (who are teaching false doctrine), not fellowship with them-especially those who call themselves brothers and sisters in the Lord, but in reality are wolves in sheep’s clothing. In Romans 16:17-18, Paul writes, “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple (compare to Philippians 3:17-19).”

The last days will be marked by great apostasy within the church which we are seeing before our very eyes and documents like the Manhatten Declaration in the larger scheme of things will only serve to bring a rise to an ecumenical one-world religion, a one-world religious leader who will serve the one-world leader, the Antichrist.

These are perilous times. Christian leaders need to wake up.

Joshua 1:9

Pastor Adam Gislason
Great Adventure Ministries, Inc.
P.O. Box 35
Hackensack, Minnesota 56452
(763) 568-2144
http://www.gaminc.wordpress.com
gamincinfo@gmail.com

Nathan Jones said...

Adam, I appreciate your thoughts on religious unity, but I have to disagree with you that the Manhattan Declaration has anything to do with choosing ecumencial alliances. One just has to see Albert Mohler's signature to agree that this declaration is soley about standing up to government encroaching past its perview and into religious freedom to declare evil "good."

We should certainly stand up for correct doctrine, but this is larger than denominational differences - it is about taking a moral stand. And so, if a Hindu or Buddhist were to sign this because they believe the government shouldn't be involved in killing babies, governing places of worship, and encroaching on religious freedoms then I gladly welcome their signatures as well.

Now, concerning denominations... from where I'm coming from, having been a part of 20+ churches of various denominations and considering myself non-denominational, there are plenty of doctrinally sound thriving churches within each denomination, and many that are not doctrinally sound within what is considered a sound denomination. I've even known charasmatic Catholics who clearly are saved but like the structure of the Catholic Church (totally apostate as it is). There are good churches and saved people within every denomination, just as there are bad. Other than for pooling resources, the days of denominations meaning anything have since passed.

"There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." - Ephesians 4:4-6

Sean said...

Thanks Nathan. I read about the declaration yesterday and signed the petition immediately. I strongly encourage all Christians to do the same!

Edmund Burke once wrote, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

It's fine time for churches across America to rip the duct-tape off their mouths which was taped shut by Lyndon Johnson. His “501c3 tax-exempt status for religious organizations” was cleverly and diabolically created to silence the church and to keep it from influencing public policy. It sure worked!

Perhaps, Christians in America are finally starting to wake up. The church in the United States has been AWOL now for over four decades. By and large, we haven't taken a stand about anything and look where we are now: Murdering babies is now a "choice". Homosexuality is now an "alternative lifestyle". Speech that isn't politically correct is now a hate crime. Simply displaying the Ten Commandments or mentioning Christ in public can get a person thrown in jail.

Christian persecution in America has arrived. We can take a stand now or we can do what most Christians did in Nazi Germany back in the late 1930's. They basically did nothing. Only after the war was over were their eyes opened to the truth. Then they were willing to take a stand and finally repent. Beautiful Europe had become a pile of burned out ruins. Tens of millions were dead. In Nazi concentration camps, six million Jews and another three to six million fellow Christians were also ruthlessly slaughtered.

We should all take a stand now while we can. Let's, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." - Mark 12:17

hartdawg said...

i`d love to see whether people like joel osteen or rick warren sign this. it might "offend" people or make then feel uncomfortable. cant have that. great coversation. laura, not to pick a fight but i have to disagree with your statement and would encourage you to rethink ur position. when christians stay outta politics like they did in my parents generation we get problems like we have today.

Pastor Adam Gislason said...

Nathan,

How would you respond to John MacArthur's statement regarding the Manhattan Declaration:

http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4444

Joshua 1:9

Pastor Adam Gislason
Great Adventure Ministries, Inc.
http://www.gaminc.wordpress.com
gamincinfo@gmail.com

Nathan Jones said...

I'd say he shares your concerns. But, while I have great respect for Dr. MacArthur (I see a few of his books on my shelf right now), I think he's missing the true purpose behind the Declaration.

Pastor Adam Gislason said...

Hmmm...I respectfully disagree. Have a great Thanksgiving!

Joshua 1:9

Pastor Adam Gislason
Great Adventure Ministries, Inc.
http://www.gaminc.wordpress.com
gamincinfo@gmail.com

son of thunder said...

J.P. Moreland states in "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, "When a major cultural shift takes place, historians always look for events that can explain it....OK, then let's think about the start of the Christian church. There's no question it began shortly after the death of Jesus and spread so rapidly that within a period of maybe twenty years it had even reached Caesar's palace in Rome. Not only that, but this movement triumphed over a number of competing ideologies and eventually overwhelmed the entire Roman empire."

Jesus may not have come to start a movement, but a movement is what the world got. In the past the church stood up to tyrants, injustice, and abuse.

So in the tradition set forth by the early church, I'm signin' the sucker!

SeanOsborne said...

I have read the Manhattan Declaration.

I am in complete agreement with its foundational, inviolable and non-negotiable "fundamental truths" and have no problem whatsoever affixing my name to it as a follower of Jesus Christ, the crucified and risen Lord, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

II Timothy 2:3

Laura said...

Nathan,

I have to ask, why does God hate sin so much? It's not because He's scared of it. And it's not because He's too holy to look upon it (consider how God ministered to Adam and Eve after they sinned). No, the reason God hates sin is because of what it does TO US! With that in mind, I see no reason to stand "against sin." In fact, I can't even recall a verse that says we are to do that (stand against the devil, yes, but not sin). Our fight is not against people, or sin, but against the evil forces in the heavenly realms.

So I stand for people--all people everywhere no matter whether they are believers or not. They are either lost and in need of understanding and accepting God's LOVE or they are found (saved) and in need of a deeper understanding of God's LOVE. All petitioning (and other attempts to stand against sin) does is create division between us and those whom we can possibly reach for Christ.

I guarantee that if you reach out to people in love, hating what sin does to them, but loving them in the midst of their sin, they are much more likely to come to Christ. Contrast that with most people's current method of labeling and taking stands against "sin" and you'll see how very unsuccessful this current method is! Oh yeah, it'll certainly make you FEEL holier-than-thou and more righteous than everybody else, but it isn't God's way and it flat doesn't work!

Anonymous said...

Nathan,

Dr. McVey responded to your comment on his blog. He's right: saying his position is a "cop-out" is inflammatory and inaccurate. You don't allow such things on your blog, so why would you stoop to such levels on someone else's blog?

Anonymous said...

Laura and anonymus - so if we Christians don't take a stand in the public arena but we wait for everyone to hear the Good News of Christ what do we get in the meantime? How do we counteract the influence of news, tv, music and movie entertainment and popular culture that are spewing the line that our children should engage in sexual behaviors earlier and earlier in age, when girls as young as 12 (as I read of one such girl in some news story) are encouraged by these leaders to have abortions? What of the "educators" who allow sexuality in all its perverse forms to be broadcast and taught at school "assemblies" and classrooms without the express permission or knowledge of the parents? And yet to mention Christ or attend Christian functions can bring reprimands to students and teachers. What do we say to a political system that passes laws legalizing un-Godly behaviors while outlawing Godly behaviors- think hate crime legislation? Where do we draw the line? The sinful world is ACTIVELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! engaged in the popular culture and they are trying to raise up a whole generation and society that believes and acts as they, and as far as I can see they are winning. We can't afford to bury our head in the sand, the stakes are high for our children and grandchildren. The danger is they could become so much like the world that reaching them for Christ gets harder, yes Christ is in the life-changing business but we must use our own human agencies of reasoning and believing to accept His truths. And when the world has taught them so many lies that become a part of who they are it is more difficult, not impossible, to overcome - that is human nature.

You may say but Rob you should as a parent be teaching Christ to your Children at home. I do, I actually homeschool so I can influence my kids for Christ, that is our goal (Praise the Lord 3 of my 5 have accepted Christ). But what of all the gov't schooled children who are under the influence and control of a sinful world system 8 hours a day, longer on a per day basis than they are influenced by family or church. Let's be honest - they have an enormous amount of sway and influence on kids, yes even "church" going kids. We can't bury our head in the sand and pretend this is not having an effect on our culture and even Christians.

No, I respectfully submit that we must engage in media campaigns, ads and more importantly in the pulpit to influence our culture. Yes, the best thing that can happen to anyone is the decision to follow Christ. But until Christ comes and rules we must stand against the outworking of sinful behaviors that are a result of rejecting Christ. I for one refuse to allow my children and others children to hear only one side of the argument, to only be influenced by the sinful world which is on the path to destruction. And so you know the sinful world has made a dent in my extended family, I will not sit by idly while others are seduced by the current loud voices in our midst, voices not emenating from the Scriptures or from God. They are counterfeit voices, from satan the deceiver.

Rob from Alabama

Katie Hesselton said...

I have a mixture of thoughts regarding the issue the Manhattan document raises. First and foremost, I must state that I believe that Christians definitely have the right to and should speak out when they are being oppressed or silenced, especially within their own institutions. This is an outrage! This part of the document, I fully support.
The New Testament, however, does give priority to witness over socially perfecting existing human society. The church society itself is supposed to live as an example of a “new society” for Christ so that people might ultimately come to know Christ through our collective witness. For this reason, the church has the responsibility of fulfilling all that God wills for them and demonstrating a blameless example. For example, as Christians, we are to confront a fellow believer who is in sin with love, of course. In addition, the bible says to publicly rebuke Christian leaders when they have erred in judgement. Having said that, it takes regenerated people to have a regenerated society. How can we expect unregenerate people to love God's way and be able to follow it? To assert this is to deny the biblical view of man's depravity and to undercut the value of Christ's death. I remember reading a while back that this may be one of the reasons for Paul’s relaxed view of slavery. He may not have believed this was just or moral, but he was simply much more concerned or focused on his missions/witnessing. So, is it really the best use of our time or even stemming from biblical example to focus on the betterment of secular society? And, like Laura, I really feel that God does not call non-Christians to keep His law - He calls them first to come to know Him personally.
God bless,
Katie

VeniSheckChicolte said...

Laura, Not to start a fight, but I disagree.
I think we need to take a stand! Especially against abortion. Not that the other things aren't that important, but abortion is just SO traumatizing. I met a woman who had two abortions, she came to our church, and she told us how she felt after the abortion. How she had depression and tried to commit suicide. She told us about the nightmares she'd had. Babies being killed, drowned, beaten, murdered, and they were all crying out 'help me mommy help!' and that's when she would wake up, then go back to sleep after a long time, and have the process repeat. This went on for four (??) years a believe she said.
Now, if it had been illegal, I think she might have thought twice before going into that center.
She's part of the Silent No More campaign, which helps people who have, or thought about having abortions.
And they go to abortion clinics and try and talk people our of it and let them know that there IS help for them.
And yes, they share how God helped them, and they defiantly love them and share Jesus love with them, but if they didn't go to these rallies and make a physical stand against what they know to be sin and what they know will hurt, not only the mother's, but the father's as well.

Here are some quotes, I won't give names.

I was under pressure, the daddy didn't want it, he was making threats... but right after I did it, I began to wonder: did the baby feel it? Did it hurt? Was it a boy? Was it a girl?


As I lay there and listened to the vacuum cleaner suction out my baby, not only did the baby die, but a part of me died that day also.


My life just started spiraling down in destruction, and I attempted suicide three times.


Abortion did not end my pain. It began it.

Men hurt too...

I didn't defend the life of my own daughter. Based on misinformation, selfishness, fear, shame, I let her die to an abortionist's knife and I died the same day.


This is devastating stuff, and If we don't take a stand against it, who will?

VeniSheckChicolte said...

Just a YAY moment:

I SIGNED IT!!! :D

VeniSheckChicolte said...

The only thing I didn't like about it is that it said 'problem pregnancies' in it once. If you want my opinion. No such thing.

Laura said...

I appreciate all the comments directed at me, and I respect all of your opinions; however, I disagree. We can agree to disagree, and as I said in my first post, no one has to be on my side.

I don't see taking a stand against sin collectively or even individually as solving any problems. After all, only Jesus can change people--and society at large. After all, society is made up of people and Jesus in them will make the only difference.

Some argue that we must point out sin by upholding "right and wrong!" But even if society suddenly switched its stance and the majority stood for what is right, they will still go to hell if they aren't born again. In other words, being moral isn't what they need; they need Jesus; they need LIFE!

If you think that the church MUST address sins to keep people/society in check, then, try a church that doesn't preach against sins, but instead preaches the love love LOVE of Christ day after day. I triple dog dare you to check out the sermons at http://ecclesiaonline.com/. Listen to 5-10 of them, and then ask yourself: Does this kind of preaching make me want to sin more?

"It's His kindness that leads us to repentance."

VeniSheckChicolte said...

It's great that you want to love people, but people can't live on love alone. Especially if a time comes when you don't feel loved. I went through that, and I gotta tell you how easy it was to drop God like a hot rock. It's not like I didn't believe in him, it's just I didn't feel He was there and I was angry at Him.

Let's say you have a sheep in the pasture and you leave the gate open. You're standing next to it and telling it how much you, and it's creator, loves you, but then it spies food and water outside the pen. And it looks a lot better then the stuff inside. Of course, it runs out.

That's kinda like life. A person like the sound of it, but then they spy all the good looking, or good sounding, stuff the world has to offer.

So see what I mean? Love is great! But it's not enough.

As for the dare, I don't think I'll take it. I think dares are manipulative. Not that I think you were trying to be. I believe that God wants me to speak out against evil, so I don't need to look elsewhere. I'm not trying to sound stubborn, but I'm not gonna take it.

BTW, the church i go to already preaches the 'love love LOVE' too much. That's why i like James McDonald. He's a step on you're toes guy.

~Ven

Shannon said...

We are G-ds instruments he uses us to take a stand for him........ Can you imagine if through the ages Christians never took a stand and ignored G-ds prompting ? The Holy Sprit is in us for a reason and sin is evil ,hate the sin but love the sinner. Satan wants us to be passive little Christians and just sit back and watch .I choose to be used by my Lord and Savior, and take a stand where ever there is evil . any thing that goes agaist G-ds word is evil,Read your Bible G-d is NOT passive and he never changes He is love but He is also just.He is both the Lion and the Lamb ,He is coming back as the LION!!! Its not that we are going to change the out come but what we stand for in G-ds eyes matter.Our children need to see us fighting for what is right ...Please Christains Stand together and fight evil where ever it is

Maranatha
Shannon

Nathan Jones said...

Anonymous, this is how I responded to Steve McVey:

"Steve, the very nature of proposing Christians make no stand against evil is in itself an inflammatory topic. I wonder what the Good Samaritan would have done had he shown up while the robbers were beating the man. Would he have just stood there watching and ministered to the man afterwards (what your position is advocating) or would he have tried to stop the robbery and beating from happening? And, how would God judge the Samaritan had he just stood there and watched?"

I'm sorry, folks, I just don't see how anyone can consider themselves a witness to all that is holy and yet sit by and do nothing about unholiness. How could the world possibly know that Christians practice what we preach unless we show them from the Bible and in action the differences between what is good and what is evil? They are watching our actions more than listening to our words.

hartdawg said...

and to that i give it a big fatty AMEN! liberty, as well as spiritual victory has to be won and rewon many times.

Billy said...

Nathan said in the article "The very institution of marriage between one man and one woman that God ordained is being corrupted through divorce, sexual promiscuity and apathy".

Yo Nathan...true but why in the world did you leave out the biggest threat...the homosexuals!!! I don't get it.

They are the ones trying to pass all the ballot measures. They are the ones with the powerful enough lobby to even make this an issue.

Again...why were they left out???

Billy said...

Anonymous said "101 Lies Taught in Church Every Sunday. Lie #48: We need to speak out against sin"

Bravely spoken A N O N Y M O U S!

Billy said...

Am I going to sign? Regulars may be surprised to see me respond...no.

First, I don't disagree with the goals.

I would just prefer to see:

Churches and their leaders to preach and educate about these beliefs with conviction on a regular basis.

Christians to stand up for these beliefs without fear of what others may think.

That's my opinion. I never get too excited over internet based petitions or actions. I think the two things I suggested would be more effective.

Be clear...I am NOT saying do not sign. It's just not for me at this time.

hartdawg said...

yo billy, i`m in total agreement that churches need to be preaching against sin (incidently i did NOT see rick warrens name on this petition but his name WAS on a petition to stop global warming) but i also firmly believe we need to be using our freedom to fight for our freedom. as mentioned earlier i also dont get too exited over these petitions cuz 1st the government dont care what moral people think but still, christians should use EVERY rescource available to bring about rightous laws.

Nathan Jones said...

"Sexual promiscuity" covers a wide range of sexual sins. No need to spell them all out, right?

Sal said...

Jan Markell of Olive Tree Ministries just wrote up both sides of the debate over whether to sign the declaration. America's Foundations Are Being Destroyed: What Can the Righteous Do?

hartdawg said...

after reading the article sal linked i come to the conclusion that debating on whether to sign it or not is a useless debate. if you feel compelled to sign it sign it if not dont. i for one signed it.

Billy said...

I disagree with you Nathan. I still say the biggest corruption of one man-one woman marriage is by the homosexual community for it would DESTROY the institution, not merely corrupt it. Also, promiscuity is NOT synonymous with homosexuality and therefore was not covered by that statement.

I stand by my comment that the omission was huge.

son of thunder said...

It's a good thing that Elijah didn't take the attitude that God's people shouldn't get involved with changing the culture when he went up against the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel.

Pastor Adam Gislason said...

Nathan,

A missionary friend of mine who is now just back in America and starting a new ministry just sent me a blog he just wrote on the Manhattan Declaration. I would be interested in how you would respond?

http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=329

Joshua 1:9

Pastor Adam Gislason
Great Adventure Ministries, Inc.
http://www.gaminc.wordpress.com
gamincinfo@gmail.com

doubleK said...

I'm getting into the conversation late - as usual. It's always interesting reading different people's opinions, and it challenges me to dig into Scripture to discern the truth of those opinions.

Laura, it is obvious that you have a wonderful heart for the lost, but according to Proverbs 1:7, it is not the love of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom but the fear of Him. I John 4:18 explains the progression - "perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment." Like the old saying goes, a man needs to know he's lost before he can understand he needs to be found.

As to the Manhattan Document, from the political perspective, our president, senators and representatives have consistently turned a deaf ear to their constituents. If they are unresponsive to those who can vote them out of office, it is unrealistic to think that signatures on an electronic document will have any influence over them. At this point I'm not sure anything would actually make a difference in our government, but it would be more effective if those who agree with the issues of the document would take the time to actually write letters to their representatives. Hundreds of thousands of letters from verifiable constituents would have more impact than hundres of thousands of miscellaneous signatures on one document. Unfortunately, that takes more time than most people want to spend. It's just too easy to read a forwarded message, get charged up about it, and without checking the "rest of the story," hit a few keys and the send button and be done with it.

The spiritual implications of this debate are serious and troubling. Very few things are as they first appear to be these days, and it seems that many believers don't take the time to pray for discernment and then search and wait for it. Things are not going to get any easier to discern as we continue to move toward the Lord's return.

God bless you all.

VeniSheckChicolte said...

doubleK, I like your post, it's really good! I especially like the Bible verse you gave... I have a magnet from Walk in the Word and it says, God's love is not a pampering love, but a perfecting one.

~Ven

VeniSheckChicolte said...

doubleK, Really good post! I especially liked that Bible verse you put in. I have a magnet from Walk in the Word that says God's love is not a pampering love, it is a perfecting love.

~Ven

VeniSheckChicolte said...

Sorry about that... my computer is being wierd... this is the second time I thought my post was deleted but it really wasn't... again, sorry...

Anonymous said...

With all do respect Nathan, I don't think John Macarthur has missed a thing, I think he and many many others like him are spot on about this document. I won't stand shoulder to should with anyone who would love nothing more than to see us reunited with Rome. We can stand on the Word and speak up for our causes without having to compromise our beliefs. I will not be a party to sacrificing truth on the alter of unity. And shame on those who do. And I must say, considering what I've read on this blog, I'm surprised at you.
I won't be signing it.
Eli

Nathan Jones said...

Eli, there's nothing wrong with standing up for what is right, regardless of who is standing with you. If I refuse to stand up for God's moral law because I don't like the guy next to me, then shame on me. I think God would also find it a poor excuse.