Tuesday, November 24, 2009

The Tribulation - A Christian Purgatory?

Nathan JonesPDFBy Nathan Jones

Dr. David Reagan and myself recently got together for a Christ in Prophecy TV interview to talk about how some people believe the Church will have to endure the Tribulation. If you are wondering whether the Bible says God wants to punish the Church along with the unrepentant world — read on!

Dr. Reagan: Some people argue that the Church has to go through the Tribulation in order to be purified. Therefore, the Rapture could not occur before the Tribulation because the Church needs to be purified during the Tribulation. What about that?

Nathan Jones: You mean, like a Christian Protestant purgatory?

Dr. Reagan: That is what it amounts to, a Christian purgatory.

Nathan Jones: I get a lot of people who write in who are supporters of the Post-Tribulation Rapture view, the view that holds that the Rapture will occur after the Tribulation. When they write in they are usually very mad because for one they don't think a Rapture before the end of the Tribulation is fair. The writers don't see how anyone who has seen the Rapture should be allowed to repent and be saved as if it was some kind of second chance. Or, they want to be martyrs for Christ to add something extra to their salvation by dying during the Tribulation.

In the end, though, the Tribulation is a special time period where God pours His wrath upon mankind for its continued rebellion against Him, just like He did with the Flood. It's not just a time for the wrath of man or the wrath of Satan, although God will use those. No, it's a distinct time for the wrath of God upon the whole world.

God has promised us in many verses such as 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that the Church will be taken away before this earth shattering Tribulation judgments upon the entire world.

Look at it this way, too, there are so many people killed by the end of the Tribulation there wouldn't be any cleansing. Nobody would be left! The entire human and animal population by the end of the seven years are all very much dead.

Dr. Reagan: Well, too, I get very upset about the thought that the Bridegroom is going to beat up His Bride for seven years to get her purified so He can come and get her. It just doesn't make sense.

Nathan Jones: Picture my dad dragging me outside with a baseball bat and beating me up for seven years and then he said, "Hey, now you qualify to have my love."

It's just not God's M.O. He took out Noah from His wrath. He took out Lot from His wrath. He even rescued Rahab as all the walls of Jericho fell down around her and yet Rahab's house was on the wall. Rescuing His people from His wrath is just the way God works.

Biblically, it is proven again and again. God will remove the Church from this Earth before He pours out His wrath during the Tribulation.

55 comments:

hartdawg said...

i`ve hear the "fair" argument several times. "why should china and other nations suffer persecution while america doesnt? its only fair for america to go thru the tribulation" a stupid argument. many times thru history nations hda persecution while others did not. that argument dont hold water.

Billy said...

I am guilty as charged of being a pre-trib escapist who doesn't want to experience physical death - and proud of it!

Who would WANT to suffer in persecution, living out of garbare cans, witnessing a Godless world of sin gone wild living with the effects of nuclear war and the wrath of God?

son of thunder said...

I've never heard that argument before, hartdawg. Is it assumed that the US will somehow be kept through the Tribulation?

Don't make me laugh!

Sal said...

Billy the answer is... a Posttribber! Makes them more of a man I guess. lol

hartdawg said...

no, thunder.the argument is americans SHOULD go thru the tribulation to be fair to other nations that suffered persecution. the "fair" objection use to be pretty common. donno if it still is.

son of thunder said...

That theory pretty much assumes that America's gonna be emptied out.

Somehow, I don't think that's the case. Plenty of Americans are gonna go through the Tribulation.

Louzada said...

Please clariy the following comments:
"Look at it this way, too, there are so many people killed by the end of the Tribulation there wouldn't be any cleansing. Nobody would be left! The entire human and animal population by the end of the seven years are all very much dead."
If's there's no one left alive after the tribulation, then who's going to populate the Millennium Kingdom? And if all the animals are dead, then how will the lion lie down with the lamb, or how's the child going to play with the asp?

Junbuggg said...

Louzada,

Are these your comments, or ones that people have made to you? Just curious.

Scripture tells us that God will cut short the tribulation, for if He did not, no one would survive. So, by cutting short the "7 year period" it will allow for people to survive, to go into the millenium. It will also allow for no one to know the actual day or hour that our Lord comes back to earth, just as the Bible tells us.

Louzada said...

They're Nathan's words, Junbuggg. Look at Nathan's comments to Dr Reagan, just prior to Dr Reagan's last comments in this post.

Junbuggg said...

Louzada,

I reread it. Guessed I breezed over the article too fast the first time. It was an interesting comment by Nathan, but I don't think he meant it like it came out. I hope not anyway, because I believe there WILL be people and animals left after the tribulation. If there wasn't, then there would really be no point in the Millenium, seems that we would just go right in to the creation of the new heavens and new earth.

Nathan Jones said...

Sorry if I was unclear, Junbuggg and Louzada. I was meaning that all the death and destruction during the Tribulation wouldn't purify the Church but almost destroy it (if the Church was to be in the Tribulation from a Post-Rapture point of view).

There will certainly be people who will survive the Tribulation and experience the Sheep-Goat Judgment. All who deny Christ will go to Torments, but all who have accepted Christ will continue to live on in their earthly bodies well into the Millennial Kingdom to have kids and repopulate the Earth.

Junbuggg said...

Nathan,

I knew that was what you meant, but thanks anyway for clearing that up for others. :-)

Buggg

Louzada said...

Ahhhh, now I get it. Thanks for clearing that up, Nathan:)

doubleK said...

Regarding the "fair" argument, Americans who are not saved will face the same tribulation horrors as unbelievers in China and everywhere else. I've read through the Bible several times and have yet to find anything that says the Holy, Just, Righteous Creator of the Universe has an attribute of fairness.

Thank God we live in the Age of Grace, not the Age of Fair.

Maranatha.

hartdawg said...

double k
i agree. if God were fair we`d all be krispy critters.

Anonymous said...

Certainly the debate of pre/post tribulation rapture will not be ended here. There are many verses which I have heard quoted/interpreted to serve both points of view. But, if you believe that God is fair and judges each man according to his ways and will not force men to love Him then a pre-tribulation rapture of perhaps millions of people out of this earthly dimension into the heavenly would coerce many people to believe in Christ. Also, the “Cup of God’s Wrath” is not poured out on His (God’s) children but on Satan’s crowd (Ezekiel 7:11 NIV)! Christ assured us that this time is shortened (ref Mark 13:20) and that it was done for the sake of the elect. Revelation 9:10 indicated that the time of the tribulation has been shorten from 7 years to 5 months (also we have and analogous time of 5 months for Noah’s time in the ark. (ref Gen 7:24)). If pre-tribulation rapture had occurred then those elect would have been left behind to suffer which would imply God selected some of his children to suffer while others His raptures into the Heavenly. Is God arbitrary? I think not. Today, more than ever, we need to put on the Gospel armor to stand against Satan and trust in God to protect His children during Satan’s (tribulation) persecution. Look at the bright side you or I might get a chance to stand up for our heavenly Father and tell “the crowd” the truth which may help direct a few towards Christ and His salvation. May God bless each of us with the strength we need for the difficult days which are fast approaching. Tony

Lilibet said...

Hello Nathan
While I am definitely pre-trib without any doubts, I do have a question I find difficult to answer from a Postie friend.

He says he knows the church is not appointed for wrath, but is insistent that the tribulation is the wrath of Satan with the wrath of God at the end of the seven years? I have pointed to Scripture that shows God used the sword, famine, wild animals and plague throughout the O.T. as discipline, which is what happens in the first 3 ½ years of the Tribulation. He will have none of it. What do you think? Have I got it wrong and can you give me a Biblical response. Maranatha!

Anonymous said...

Posties invariably argue that wrath (orge) isn’t mentioned until Rev 6:17 and use that as proof that it occurs later, which is an argument that can be used against some of there own beliefs. And while people argue about the Greek tense in that verse (it does usually reflect the past), the fact is that it is uttered by unbelievers as a result of what has been and is occurring and not for some future wrath.

The way I see it is that if the Church really is not destined to eschatological wrath then that includes Satan’s and man’s wrath given that Christ releases the events by opening the seals. I think you’re right in saying that God uses sword, famine and plagues (Rev 6:8 and Ez 14:21). God also uses human instruments as agents of His wrath. Apart from the OT examples, see Romans 13:4 where the wrath administered by human Gov on God’s behalf is orge. Frankly none of this will convince a postie or prewrather but I do ask myself this; if they’re so convicted in their views, why is it that they tend to downplay the severity of the seal judgments?

Lilibet said...

Hello
Thanks for your view. You say orge is past tense; is there a way of proving this as I too have said this to Prewrathers/ 6th sealers. Rev.6:17 people are in deep trouble, and all things considered, they now realise they have been experiencing God’s wrath by looking back at all that has been happening; its by looking back at events that they realise what is going on. Thanks for Romans 13:4, I hadn’t noticed this before.

Apart from Ezekiel 14:21, I personally consider Leviticus 26 may be an indicator of the final 7 year Tribulation.
Vs.1-13 God says IF you walk in my statutes - - He will bless. Vs 14 onward God says what will happen ‘IF you do not obey me’. Vs 16 is pestilence and famine. Vs. 17 is sword/war.

Then I think vs 18-20 may also suggest the future Tribulation because they have refused to obey God throughout the eons, as God says ‘IF you still don’t obey I will punish you 7 times more’ which is the FIRST set of sevens, and drought and famine is introduced.
Vs 21,22 there comes another IF and includes a SECOND set of sevens, with more plagues and wild beast attacks.
Vs. 24 26 Is the THIRD set of sevens with sword, pestilence, famine and war.

These THREE lots of sevens may correspond with God’s wrath in Revelation of seals, trumpets and vials?

But then comes a FOURTH set of sevens in vs 27-35 making one more than in Revelation. This to me appears to be a recurring pattern through history, with the fourth seven being part of when Israel went into the Diaspora after AD 70.

However I also think this may refer to Mark13:20 God’s mercy of shortening the time lest no one survives. Is it possible that the Tribulation would have included a fourth seven that God decided not use (shortened the day) in the final set of discipline of the Tribulation?

Vs 40 Here the land is to remain empty after the fourth set of sevens, just as it did in the Diaspora of 2000 years until 1948. However, at the Tribulation, Gods mercy and love for Israel he puts a stop to the pattern of discipline because of what Jesus accomplished through His shed Blood. Instead of further desolation and Diaspora, there is the 1000year rule of Messiah instead.

Several years ago I put this to Arnold Fruchtenbaum, and he said he thought it might apply, but he wasn’t too sure; so I may well be very wrong. Its just that if I am correct, it clearly shows just how God’s wrath has unfolded in history, and how His wrath may do the same in the Tribulation as he uses the same familiar four judgments of SWORD, FAMINE, WILD BEASTS and DEATH/PESTILENCE to exercise His wrath. Of course there will be the ‘extra’s like celestial catastrophe which is condensed and intensified as the judgments progress.
I’m not too good at explaining myself, so I hope this isn’t too muddled. What do you think?

Anonymous said...

I read an article on prewrath rapture dot com where someone argued the tense in Rev 16:17 was future. But here’s what he also said.

“Some wrongly believe that it is a past tense because it can often be found in a past action context. Though it is commonly in past action, it can also be an action in the present, future, or just timeless. Only context -- not the fact it is aorist -- tells us what time the action occurs.”

Get that? It is commonly in past action but the context determines the tense. Lots of good scholars will tell you that the tense found in that verse is usually in the past but you’ll have an uphill battle proving that the context is past to a postie or prewrather. As far as pretribbers are concerned, isn’t the context obvious with people running away and hiding? If the wrath hasn’t occurred then, how do unbelievers know wrath is on the way at the 7th seal or 7th trumpet (1Thes 5:3-4)? BTW, I also think Isaiah 2 strongly suggests that the 6th seal is located within the Day of the Lord.

You make interesting observations that I’ll have to look over and ponder. God certainly used men to execute His wrath in the past and whereas in the OT He used plagues, sword, famine and war on a regional scale, I believe it will be global during the 70th week. That’s the main difference and this is where posties etc try to limit Rev 6:8. There’s no Scriptural justification for doing this.

Also keep in mind that the two witnesses of Rev 11:5-6 torment the whole earth. How do they do it and who empowers them? Even if they emerge in the midst of the week, God uses them as instruments of His wrath at that point. You probably won’t change anyone’s mind but I consider the pre-trib understanding of where the wrath of God occurs superior to the rest.

Lilibet said...

Thanks again,
Lots of food for thought concerning CONTEXT of events. It is obvious to me it is past, but as you say, it would be hard to convince the opponents of pretrib; especially Posties who see no distinction between Israel and the Church. My Postie insists that because Israel is in the Trib, then by extension so is the Church. Sigh!

As long as I know what I believe and WHY I believe it, is what matters most to me. I shall look out to see if you arrive at a conclusion about my thoughts on Leviticus 26 and the possible link with the Tribulation.
God bless

Anonymous said...

I’ve read Lev 26 through a few times but I’m not sure yet whether or not it directly refers to the trib. Dr Frucht and others point out that many concepts in Revelation have their origin in the OT and elements of God’s expressed wrath in Lev 26 do parallel Rev 6. I think you made a good observation there.

I’m not sure how people cannot see a difference between an unregenerate Israel and the Church. There isn’t a need to have the Church in the trib if the trib is designed to fulfill God’s redemptive plan for Israel. I can certainly understand the argument that a postie might raise that there’s no difference between OT saints and the Church. They need this argument because of their single post-trib resurrection based on Daniel 12 etc. This is one reason why Progressive Dispensationalism is becoming so popular among posttribbers etc. However this creates a range of problems which I won’t go into here.

One example: I can’t remember where but I recall a statement by a prewrath rapturist that Daniel’s people (Dan 9:24) is inclusive of the Church. He was trying to reinforce the idea that the Church (saints) is in the trib. He seemed to forget that certain verses also state that Daniel’s people are given over to the AC for 42 months which is problematic for his view.

RG

Mitchell said...

Anon says, "Posties invariably argue that wrath (orge) isn’t mentioned until Rev 6:17 and use that as proof that it occurs later, which is an argument that can be used against some of there own beliefs."

Let me explain precisely the context of the "orge" wrath. The Bible is clear that we are promised to be saved from the wrath of God, but we read about the wrath of God during the tribulation in Revelation, so how can the rapture be post-trib? The answer is in the text itself. All we need to do is figure out what the intended meaning is.

First, here are all the verses that we would use to support a pre-trib rapture:

1 Thess 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

1 Thess 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

Romans 5:9, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Eph 5:6, "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

Now, let us exegete the text to see what we discover in the Greek:

1 Thess 1:10, -- The wrath that we will be delivered from is the Greek "orge" (G3709).

1 Thess 5:9, -- The wrath that we are not appointed to is the Greek "orge" (G3709).

Romans 5:9, -- The wrath that we are saved from is the Greek "orge" (G3709).

Eph 5:6, -- The wrath upon those who are disobedient is the Greek "orge" (G3709).

The word "wrath" is found 13 times in Revelation from the Greek word "thymos" and "orge", but the "orge" of God that we are promised to be saved from is only found six times. Each time "orge" is used it is in a post-trib context:

1 and 2. It is mentioned AFTER the cosmic signs and the revealing of Christ Jesus (Rev 6:16-17). Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms that these signs happen immediately AFTER the tribulation (Matt 24:29).

3. It is found AFTER the SEVENTH trumpet (Rev 11:18).

4. It is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (Rev 14:10).

5. It is found AFTER the SEVENTH bowl (Rev 16:19).

6. It is used in connection with Christ's Second Coming (Rev 19:15).

Therefore, even if the rapture does not happen until after the tribulation, we are still saved from the "orge" of God as promised.

Mitchell said...

Anon says, "And while people argue about the Greek tense in that verse (it does usually reflect the past), the fact is that it is uttered by unbelievers as a result of what has been and is occurring and not for some future wrath."

Here is why the "orge" cannot be in the past tense.

Rev 6:17, "For the great day of their wrath (orge) has come; and who is able to stand?"

First, what we need to do is also look at the verb "has come" (elthen) in Rev 6:17, which means "to come" or "to go". The meaning of this word does not mean that the wrath (orge) of the Lamb had already started some time in the past and has continued up until that time. If it had been referring to something in the past the verb would have been used in the perfect tense (in Greek the indicative mood is normally used to tell us of events existing in the present due to some event of the past). Rev. Bill Lee-Warner sums it up well with a few points by first noting that the word "elthen" is "a transitive verb (an action verb requiring an object) in the aorist tense. The aorist tense in its unaffected form is, in essence, punctiliar. The context of the aorist, as any Greek verb, determines the tense or how it is to be understood. It can be understood to mean past or future, depending on the context. A.T. Robertson, in his book, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research, says 'The caution must be once more repeated that in these subdivisions of the aorist indicative we have only one tense and one root-idea (punctiliar actions)' (p. 835). Later he says of the aorist tense, as it relates to events that occur in the future: "It is a vivid transference of the action to the future by the 'timeless aorist'" (p. 846). In other words, the aorist tense speaks to one particular issue that is timeless, the context clearly determining the tense of the action, as against the common belief of some who would make the aroist tense always a past completed action. In this case, the action of the people mentioned in verses 15 and 16 'men...(are [now] hiding) themselves in caves and among the rocks of the mountains" indicates that their action has been prompted by some determining factor. That factor is made known to us in verses 12 and 13 - the oft-repeated sign of the coming Day of the Lord's wrath and the subsequent response of mankind indicated in verses 15-16.

A similar use of the same verb is found in Mark 14:41. Jesus announces to the disciples that the 'hour has come [elthen]; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.' The exact same structure of the aorist tense found in Revelation 6:17 is used in this verse. From the context, it is clear that Jesus doesn't mean that He has already been betrayed previously and is presently incarcerated. It means that the hour of His betrayal (by Judas) has now arrived and He's about to be taken captive. This contextual information leads us to understand that the transitive verb has come and its object, the hour of His betrayal, is used in an ingressive sense. That is, the action where Jesus is betrayed "into the hands of sinners", is about to be entered into, or ingressed. The same understanding applies to Rev. 6:17."

Second, "From the indication of the natural lights being extinguished in the heavens (Rev. 6:12-13), we are to understand that the Day of the Lord is about to come but has not yet come. In the Old Testament, the prophet Joel explicitly tells us that the Day of the Lord arrives after the natural lights in the heavens are extinguished and not before (Joel 2:31). The Day of the Lord is the time for God's wrath upon all the earth (cf. Zeph. 1:14-18; Obadiah 15). With this clear teaching, we know that the wrath of God [orge] does not begin before the 6th Seal which is the sign of the arrival of the Day of the Lord."

http://www.solagroup.org/articles/faqs/faq_0016.html

Mitchell said...

Lilibet says, "My Postie insists that because Israel is in the Trib, then by extension so is the Church. Sigh!"

I'm going to go in a round-about way to show you why your postie friend is right. :) Let’s look at the post-trib events that Jesus gives and compare this to the Sixth and Seventh Seals.

First:

Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”

This corresponds with:

Revelation 6:12-13, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”

Second:

Matthew 24:30, “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

This corresponds with:

Revelation 6:15-17, “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath (orge) is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Third:

Matthew 24:30, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This corresponds with:

Revelation 7:1-9, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God … Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads … And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed … After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb …”

First point: Surprise! The 144,000 are not mentioned until *AFTER* the tribulation. Even the second time they are mentioned in Rev 14:1 is in a post-trib context.

Now let me share something with you regarding the real meaning of the 144,000 ...

Mitchell said...

Let’s look at the list of the twelve tribes and how they are listed. This is the only place in the Bible that the list appears in this form. In Hebrew they often named the child a word that had a phrase/meaning to the name. For example, when Leah gave birth to Judah she said “I will praise the Lord.” When Reuben was born she said “He has looked upon my affliction”. Normally the first born is listed first, but in this list in Revelation 7 Judah is listed first, not Reuben. Dan and Ephraim are completely left out, so it’s a very interesting list. Here is the list and order they appear in Revelation 7:

1. Judah
2. Reuben
3. Gad
4. Asher
5. Nepthalim
6. Manasses
7. Simeon
8. Levi
9. Issachar
10. Zabulon
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin

Now, when we take the tribes as listed in that order, and then discover the meaning of and/or why those names were given, we get something interesting after constructing it in the order that the names are listed. Here are all the verses with the names: (KVJ/NASB):

Judah
Gen 29:35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, NOW WILL I PRAISE THE LORD, therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

Reuben
Gen 29:32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said Surely THE LORD HATH LOOKED UPON MY AFFLICTION; now therefore my husband will love me.

Gad
Gen 30:11 Then Leah said, “HOW FORTUNATE!” So she named him Gad.

Asher
Gen 30:13 And Leah said, HAPPY AM I for the daughters will call me blessed: and she called his name Asher.

Nepthalim
Gen 30:8 And Rachel said, WITH GREAT WRESTLINGS HAVE I WRESTLED with my sister, and I have prevailed and she called his name Naphtali.

Manasses
Gen 41:51 Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: “FOR GOD HATH MADE ME FORGET ALL MY TOIL and all my father’s house.”

Simeon
Gen 29:33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, BECAUSE THE LORD HATH HEARD THAT I WAS HATED, HE HATH THEREFORE GIVEN ME THIS SON also: and she called his name Simeon

Levi
Gen 29:34 “And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, NOW THIS TIME WILL MY HUSBAND BE JOINED UNTO ME, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.

Issachar
Gen 30:18 Then Leah said, “GOD HAS GIVEN ME MY WAGES because I gave my maid to my husband.” So she named him Issachar.

Zebulon
Gen 30:20 Then Leah said, “GOD HAS ENDOWED ME WITH A GOOD GIFT; NOW MY HUSBAND WILL DWELL WITH ME, because I have borne him six sons.” So she named him Zebulun.

Joseph
Gen 30:24 And she called his name Joseph; and said, THE LORD SHALL ADD TO ME another son.

Benjamin
Gen 35:17-18 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; THOU SHALT HAVE THIS SON also. And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

- Continued

Mitchell said...

So when we take them all and put them in the order that the tribes appear, we get the following:

“Now will I praise the LORD, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction, How fortunate!, Happy am I, With great wrestlings have I wrestled and I have prevailed, For God hath made me forget all my toil, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated he hath therefore given me this son, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, God has given me my wages, God has endowed me with a good gift; my husband will dwell with me, The LORD shall add to me, thou shalt have this son.”

Benjamin literally means “Son of My right hand” so another reading of the last portion could be “The LORD shall add to me the Son of [His] right hand.”

The way that they are listed describes the Bride of Christ and the battle between good and evil. This is the complete story of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ marrying His bride after delivering her from her affliction.

John 17:14-17 Jesus prays, “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.”

Mark 13:19 “For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.”

Eph 6:12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].”

Mitchell said...

Who is His bride? The 12 Tribes of Israel were listed. The Bride of Christ is ISRAEL!! Israel is all believing Jews, *and* now it is also all believing Gentiles who have been grafted in! You and I are a part of Israel my friend, for we have received circumcision of the heart. WE ARE A PART OF JACOB, for we have become fellow citizens with the saints and are members of the household of God. We are one body, and it is no surprise to me that after John describes the 144,000 that he then sees a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations (including Israel!), and kindreds, and people, and tongues standing before the throne and before the Lamb.

I view the number 144,000 as a two-fold way of symbolizing completion.

Ephesians 2:11-16,19-20, “Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh–who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands–that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who HAS MADE BOTH ONE, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, [that is], the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances, so as to create in Himself ONE new man [from] the two, [thus] making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God IN ONE BODY through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity… Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner[stone] ..”

Ephesians 5:31-32, “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning CHRIST AND THE CHURCH”

Acts 7:37-38, “This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was IN THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us”

Anonymous said...

Interestingly, as someone arguing for a future tense puts it: ”Let me demythologize the aorist tense. The aorist does not denote "past time" as some commonly understand it; and it does not denote a "once-for-all action." Some wrongly believe that it is a past tense because it can often be found in a past action context. Though it is commonly in past action, it can also be an action in the present, future, or just timeless. Only context -- not the fact it is aorist -- tells us what time the action occurs.” Really?

Actually, the verb in Rev 6:17 is commonly used in the past tense. Robertson and Dana & Mantey can also be used to support this depending upon what one quotes from their manuals! Dana and Mantey pp 193-194 - usually that kind of aorist tense verb (indicative mood with the augment) refers to the occurrence of an event in the past, not the future, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise. Robertson states in A Grammar of the Greek p 831, “It is true that in the expression of past time in the indicative and with all the other moods, the aorist is the tense used as a matter of course.”

So, in fact, the wrath is more likely to be in the past. Mark 14:41 isn’t a good example to support Lee-Warner’s argument because at that point Judas had already betrayed Christ and was in the process of completing it. Christ’s hour HAD come. What people consistently fail to note is that it is unbelievers who make that statement in the first place. Hence an argument for their ability to prophesy a future wrath and understanding “the signs” is suspect. If the wrath hasn’t occurred yet, why are they alarmed? How do they know it’s coming, since Paul stated the day of the Lord was going to take them by surprise (1Thess 5:3-4, see also Matt 24:38; Rev 6:4; Rev 6:8)?

Any exegesis needs to take into account the fact that God uses people as instruments of His wrath (orge) as argued in earlier comments and many times elsewhere (Rom 13 and numerous OT verses). The seal judgments (especially the 2nd and 4th) on the world must be dealt with to explain why - when it is Christ who sovereignly opens them – they cannot be expressions of His wrath. The same can be asked about the two witnesses who are empowered agents of God’s wrath.

No wrath is mentioned until Rev 6 but that is hardly exegesis and has been dealt with before. And that tactic, as you well know, can be use in many other applications. How many times is the rapture mentioned at the 7th trumpet or Rev 10 and yet it is believed to be there? There’s no resurrection mentioned either so it needs to be backdated (ala Tim Warner) from Rev 20. And the justification for that is?

RG

Mitchell said...

RG, so in your view, Armageddon already happened prior to the Sixth Seal?? And, you don't see the rapture at the 7th trumpet in Revelation 10?

When we read Revelation 10, notice what happens when the angel begins to sound the 7th and LAST TRUMPET:

Revelation 10:1,3a,7, "And I saw another mighty angel COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire ... And cried with a LOUD VOICE, as [when] a lion roareth ... in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall begin to SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

I believe that this is directly related to 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:51-52, the most popular rapture passages in the entire Bible.

1 Thess 4:16, "For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" *and* 1 Cor 15:51-52 reads, "Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

In Revelation 10 we have:

1. A "mighty angel" coming down from heaven, 2. Crying out with a loud voice, 3. The seventh and last trumpet begins to sound, 4. And the "mystery" of God is finished once the last trumpet begins to sound.

In 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 we have:

1. The Lord coming down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel, 2. With the trump of God, 3. The Mystery: At the last trump the dead are raised, and 4. At the last trump we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

I don't think that this is just a mere coincidence.

The pre-trib position explains that the trumpets that the angels have in Revelation are not the trumpets of God. However, looking at what Revelation 8:2 says, it is next to impossible to make that claim. Rev 8:2 reads, "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." If the angels stand before God, and God gives the angels the trumpets, how can we say that these are not the trumpets of God? It seems that the only way we can claim they are not the trumpets of God is to first assume it. The angels pour out the bowls of wrath, yet we know that the bowls of wrath is the wrath of God, so there's no real reason for the pre-trib position to state that the trumpets noted in Revelation are not the trumpets of God. (Important note: The bowls of Wrath is "thymos" in the Greek, and it appears to be only poured upon the Antichrist, his land, those who worship him, those who persecute the saints, who do not repent).

Mitchell said...

Now, having said that, let’s take a closer look at this “mighty messenger” that is described just before the seventh trumpet sounds. I believe that we can ascertain exegetically and hermeneutically that the “mighty messenger” that John sees coming down from Heaven (often translated as “angel”) in Rev 10:1 is a direct reference to Christ Jesus. (We need to keep in mind that “angel” does not always refer to a created being, though it normally does in most cases. The Greek word for “angel” simply means “messenger” and at times can be referring to a Christophany, especially in the Old Testament.) John borrows extensively from the Old Testament so this could very well be a Christophany here as well, and I believe that it is. Here is why.

In Rev 10:3 we read that “he gave a loud shout like the ROAR OF A LION.” This is a significant clue in my opinion, for we know that Christ is the One who roars at His coming. Jeremiah 25:30 says that, “‘The LORD will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.” In Hosea 11:10 we read, “They shall walk after the LORD: he shall ROAR LIKE A LION: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.” Joel 3:16 says, “The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Amos 1:2 says that “The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.” 1 Thess 4:16 says that “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven WITH A SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”.

Are there more clues here? Yes.

Note that this “mighty messenger” in Rev 10:1 comes down from heaven “clothed with a cloud”. During the Second Coming Jesus Christ is “coming in a cloud with power and great glory” (Matt. 24:30, 26:64, Mark 13:26, 14:62, Luke 21:27, Rev. 1:7, Dan 7:13). Indeed, even when Jesus ascended to Heaven “he was taken up; and a cloud received him” (Acts 1:9).

Even the “rainbow upon his head” is another clue in my opinion. (The only other reference to a rainbow in Revelation is in 4:3 when John describes the throne of God. Could the rainbow be symbolic of holiness, authority, the Covenant?) Moreover, “his face was like the sun”, which should remind us immediately of the Prophet Daniel’s description of the Messiah in Dan 10:6 where the prophet writes that, “his face [was] like the appearance of lightning”. In Rev 1:16-17, the One who calls Himself “the first and the last” is described by John as having a face “like the sun shining in all its brilliance”. It should be quite obvious to us that this is none other than Jesus Christ.

Matthew Henry (along with numerous other commentators, scholars, and theologians) agrees. In his commentary regarding the “mighty messenger” of Rev 10:1, Henry writes that “… it could be no other than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! 1. He was clothed with a cloud: he veils his glory, which is too great for mortality to behold; and he throws a veil upon his dispensations. Clouds and darkness are round about him. 2. A rainbow was upon his head; he is always mindful of his covenant, and, when his conduct is most mysterious, yet it is perfectly just and faithful. 3. His face was as the sun, all bright, and full of lustre and majesty, ch. 1:16. 4. His feet were as pillars of fire; all his ways, both of grace and providence, are pure and steady.”

Absolutely, without a doubt, the rapture is seen at the 7th and last trumpet in Rev 10:7.

Anonymous said...

“Absolutely, without a doubt, the rapture is seen at the 7th and last trumpet in Rev 10:7.”

More to the point, all of your comments above are conjectures of which YOU have no doubt about. The context of the 7th trumpet is wrath. Do a search on G3466 – there’s more than one mystery. But if I may I point out; the reason for my original comment is that you have not demonstrated that there is no wrath prior to the 6th seal and that the seal judgments do not contain God’s wrath.

RG

Nathan Jones said...

Mitchell brother, I don't know where you're getting that the Pre-Trib view doesn't believe the Trumpet Judgments are the wrath of God. That's the Pre-Wrath view. The Pre-Trib view holds that God's wrath is poured out the entire 7 years of the Tribulation, right from when Jesus opens the very first Seal Judgment unleashing the Antichrist.

I've been wondered this... how does the Post-Trib view explain there being believers in earthly bodies during the Millennial Kingdom when a Rapture at the end of the Tribulation gives them all glorified bodies like the angels that don't reproduce?

(Don't forget to keep your posts short so people want to read them.)

Mitchell said...

RG said, "the reason for my original comment is that you have not demonstrated that there is no wrath prior to the 6th seal and that the seal judgments do not contain God’s wrath."

Hi RG. Can you please show us where the "orge" wrath of God is found prior to the Sixth Seal in the eschaton? Nowhere in Scripture is the wrath of the seals/trumpets/bowls ever called the "orge" wrath before the Sixth Seal after the tribulation. It is called the "thymos" of God because those upon whom the "thymos" is poured are still given the opportunity to repent, but they do not. When they refuse to repent, THEN the "orge" wrath of God comes where no such provision for repentance is granted. Their choices will be actualized.

RG said, "More to the point, all of your comments above are conjectures of which YOU have no doubt about."

All of my comments are not conjectures. Study what so many of the giants of the Christian faith have taught and believed throughout history. Study what the early Church believed. Think about it my friend. Do you believe that so many of them all conjectured?? What is more of a conjecture -- a pre-trib rapture which cannot be found anywhere in Scripture unless the text is first approached with that assumption, or what I have clearly demonstrated as happening in Rev 10?

If you believe they're conjectures, then can you please provide your view on what is happening? It is easily proven hermeneutically that Rev 10 shows Christ who comes down with a shout at the last trump. Even Nathan Jones agrees that the "mighty messenger" of Revelation 10 is none other than Jesus Christ.

The reason why some folks are uncomfortable with this understanding is because of the implications it has against the idea of a pre-trib rapture, since the pre-trib position is forced to say that the seventh and last trump of Revelation 10 is not the same as the trump of God in 1 Thess 4:16 or the last trump of 1 Cor 15:52. The fact that 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52-53 is so easily demonstrated here in Revelation 10 is another item in the long list of problems with pretribism.

RG sais, "Do a search on G3466 – there’s more than one mystery."

What do you suggest the mystery that is suppose to be fulfilled with the return of Christ is suppose to be? Could it be this one?

Eph 5:31-32, "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery (G3466): but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

Let's discuss this. I am really curious to know what you think it could be.

It's a great topic for discussion and I think that it's very eye opening for a lot of people.

God bless ...

Mitchell said...

Nathan says, "Mitchell brother, I don't know where you're getting that the Pre-Trib view doesn't believe the Trumpet Judgments are the wrath of God."

Hi Nathan, that's not what I'm saying. Can you please show me which comment it was I made that gives you that impression? It sounds like I'll need to clarify it.

Nathan asks, "I've been wondered this... how does the Post-Trib view explain there being believers in earthly bodies during the Millennial Kingdom when a Rapture at the end of the Tribulation gives them all glorified bodies like the angels that don't reproduce?"

Zech 14:16 says, "And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

Not only will there be a remnant of Jews that will enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies, there will also be a remnant of Gentiles as well.

Here is a great little 4 minute video on precisely this question. (Turn up the volume, great music on it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcMXU5nwkzw

Nathan Jones said...

The music was good! I've always wondered how Post-Tribbers explained that point... by kidnapping Millennial Kingdom verses and applying them to the Tribulation.

This line of thinking then is... 1) God beats up on the Church for 7 years martyring an uncountable number of believers, 2) what's shabbily left alive are raptured at the end, and finally 3) Jesus u-turns back and many of those God-haters that denied God's obvious role in the Tribulation for 7 long and painful years immediately repent and get to enter the Millennial Kingdom.

Sorry, Man, and you say the Pre-Trib view is a stretch.

Mitchell said...

Nathan says, "This line of thinking then is... 1) God beats up on the Church for 7 years martyring an uncountable number of believers"

God's wrath is not upon the righteous Nathan, it is only upon the wicked. We will be here to witness the "thymos" wrath that is directed upon Antichrist and the nations he controls, those who have the mark, worship the beast, who persecute the saints. We are raptured just before the "orge" of God destroys those who come up against Jerusalem at Armageddon.

Nathan says, '2) what's shabbily left alive are raptured at the end"

The purpose of these judgments is to turn the hearts of all to repentance and salvation. But, I'm going to take the "scenic route" in my answer to your question just to give more info inasmuch as how I currently see it, so please bear with me. I think this is necessary to explain.

Let's discuss the scope of the trumpet/bowl judgments. Although at first glance these judgments may seem to encompass the entire earth, I believe that they are in fact very pinpointed in nature, that is to say, directed upon a very specific group only: Antichrist, those who have the mark, who worship the beast, who persecute the saints (Rev 9:4, 16:2, 16:6, 16:10). Since I believe that the Beast of Revelation is related to and is Islam -- the largest antichrist force that the world has ever seen -- and that prophecy is very Israel/Middle East centric, I therefore am of the opinion that these judgments will only be upon these Islamic nations, upon the "seat of the Beast", if you will. This is evident to me in the fact that when Christ returns the Bible lists the nations specifically that He destroys at His coming, and those nations today are all Islamic nations. If the trumpets/bowls were upon the whole literal earth, why does Christ not lay waste to every single nation of the earth?

The antithesis of true Biblical prophecy is false Islamic "end-times eschatology", and I have a feeling that many in the Muslim world will misinterpret these events, especially if the "Islamic savior" -- the Mahdi -- is now on the scene to lead the Muslim world into a new Islamic era. They believe that "Allah will rescue people from the chaos of the End Times after this period of darkness and bestow a great salvation upon them." Thus, instead of repentance, they may see this as the coming of their Islamic "Judgment Day" where the time is upon them to rid the world of all those who refuse to submit to Islam. (They are already trying to do this today). Their evil will not relent, and they will continue in their desire to subjugate the world under Islam.

But just how much global influence will the Mahdi have? Over the Islamic world it will be powerful, almost God-like. I believe, however, that North America and in fact the west, for the most part, will not come under the political control of the Mahdi. Instead, his hand of influence will cast a shadow over many within the Muslim populations of the West, to such a degree that we may once again relive the horrors all of us witnessed on one dreadful September morning in 2001: Islamic terrorism.

As we already know, there are millions upon millions of Muslims living in Western nations and someone as eschatologically pivotal to Muslims as the Mahdi is sure to awaken the radical elements of any Muslim population, even radicalize some of those who were previously considered "moderate". This could become a "triggering event" that has the potential to cause a tremendous surge in Islamic terrorism all over the globe. It's already at our doorsteps:

http://thebulletin.us/articles/2009/01/22/top_stories/doc49781a64e0d2b381984861.txt

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/02/sleeper_cells_in_the_united_st.html

- Con't

Mitchell said...

- Con't

Since there are so many Muslims now living in the west, even if only 10% of them were to "radicalize" and wage Jihad in an effort to guarantee themselves a "place in paradise", we will have a major "martial-law inducing" problem on our hands. In the United States alone, this could be up to 600,000 Muslims who want us dead for the cause of Islam. The Fort Hood killer, a Muslim US Army Major, waged his own jihad and took 13 lives. Imagine what 600,000 just like him with similar intent could do.

Now, back to those who are on the receiving end of the trumpets/bowls. The fact of the matter is, though they have the chance to repent during the "thymos" wrath of God, they do not. In Revelation 9:18-21 we read that that 1/3 of the men who are the focus of the "thymos" wrath are killed, and THE REST that were not killed still refused to repent. In my mind, this tells me that there is a strong delusion at play here for they are completely deceived and refuse to acknowledge what is really happening. At the Second Coming, they are destroyed. Bye bye al Qaeda and your ilk.

In Rev 7 we read of the "great multitude" that no one could number who came out of the Great Tribulation. There must have been a tremendous number of people who have been witnessing these judgments who did in fact repent. In this modern era the beginning of such judgments will without a doubt be witnessed and reported by a stunned world well outside of the Middle East. The wheels of Bible prophecy will be shifted into overdrive when these fearsome events begin to occur. People all over the world will be talking and writing about this -- CNN, FOX News, local news programs, talk radio, internet blogs, newspapers, "water-cooler" discussions, you name it. During this time the Church will begin to wake up and the Gospel will be preached, one would presume, to an even more receptive audience by now. Church attendance will begin to skyrocket, for if one thing can get people's attention, it is prophecy unfolding right before their very eyes. People all over the world will be coming to Christ.

Nathan says, "and finally 3) Jesus u-turns back"

The word used for “meet” in I Thessalonians 4:17 is the Greek word “apantesis”, and this word only occurs here and in three other places. In Matthew 25:1,6 it describes the virgins going out to meet the bridegroom, to ESCORT HIM BACK into the house. In Acts 28:14-16 it is used to describe brethren from Rome coming out to Appii Foru, to meet Paul and his company, and then ESCORT THEM BACK to Rome. Aside from 1 Thess 4:17 these are the only occurrences of the word. In the post-trib view, the elect are gathered in the air to meet Jesus and then we accompany Him back to Earth. This is consistent with the usage of “apantesis” in each of the other three verses of Scripture. The pre-trib position, however, suddenly changes the intended meaning of the word. Instead of us escorting Jesus back to Earth for His Second Coming, pre-tribism has us conveniently going to Heaven instead.

Mitchell said...

Nathan says, "and many of those God-haters that denied God's obvious role in the Tribulation for 7 long and painful years immediately repent and get to enter the Millennial Kingdom."

Look at what these verses say:

Joel 2:11-12, "And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:"

Hab 3:2, "O LORD, I have heard Your speech [and] was afraid; O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years! In the midst of the years make [it] known; In wrath remember mercy."

There are many verses that show Gentile survivors entering into the MK in mortal bodies. For example:

Isa 2:2-4, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Isa 14:1-2, "For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors."

Zech 14:9,16-19, "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one ... And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Eze 36:24-28,36, "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.... Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it."

Read more here:

http://www.totall.exagorazo.net/Post-Tribulation/Mirrors/Last%20Trumpet%202000/www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/repop.html

Nathan Jones said...

Mitchell, I think where we'll never see eye-to-eye is that you believe the Gog-Magog Battle is also Armageddon, which I think I've proven it's not (see Timing Gog-Magog).

Also, you ignore all the verses that contain the "whole world" and "all the nations" references, saying they do not mean the whole globe but rather is local like the Flood (see Global or Local Antichrist?).

Thirdly, the Pre-Trib view does have the Church escourting Jesus back at the Second Coming, but after 7 years of being in Heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Fourthly, you only see God's wrath at the end of the Tribulation, while it's crystal clear Jesus opens the scrolls releasing the wrath of God from the very beginning. And so, Joel and Habakkuk's plea for mercy cover the full 7 years and not just the very end (days are cut short mercifully, remember? Matt. 24:22).

We've discussed Bible prophecy for over a year now, Mitchell, and I have to say I detect a different view coming from you now, more of a Pre-Wrath view blended with a Post-Trib view. Sounds new and distinct. Part of the Progressive Dispensationalist view you hold or your own?

Mitchell said...

Nathan says, "I think where we'll never see eye-to-eye is that you believe the Gog-Magog Battle is also Armageddon, which I think I've proven it's not"

We'll likely never see eye to eye on that point (not until it actually happens anyway). I believe 100% that Gog/Magog begins at the Abomination of Desolation, and ends at Armageddon. Here are some of the reasons why:

http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=1973

Nathan says, "Also, you ignore all the verses that contain the "whole world" and "all the nations" references, saying they do not mean the whole globe but rather is local like the Flood"

We know that the Flood was global because of a few reasons primarily:

1) the context -- if it was a regional flood the Lord would have likely said, "Hey Noah, there's going to be a big flood in this area in 100 years, pack up your things and move." The fact that God told Noah to build an ark and gather the animals doesn't make sense if it was a regional flood

2) physical evidence -- there is physical evidence throughout the planet that it once suffered a global flood such as the Grand Canyon, coal deposits, oil deposits, stratigraphic evidence from hydrological sorting of layers, etc etc etc.

3) The text doesn't leave any room for hyperbole or synechdoche, saying in Genesis 7:19–20, "And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered."

Also consider this too -- if the Flood was only a local flood God would have repeatedly broken His promise to never send such a flood again. God put a rainbow in the sky as a covenant between God and man and the animals that He would never repeat such an event and there have been huge local floods in recent times, but never has there been another global Flood.

As for Antichrist's rule being over the whole literal earth, let's ask a couple of questions:

1. If Antichrist's rule is literally global, why are other nations waging war against him and why is he himself waging wars? (Daniel 11:39-45; 9:26).

2. How can "all" mean literally "all" if even one nation -- for example Jordan -- is able to escape his hand (Dan 11:41)?

3. If Antichrist controls the world, why is he so troubled by news out of the north and the east (Dan 11:44)?

- Con't

Mitchell said...

Let's look at the verses below to determine if "all" should always be understood to be universal:

Luke 2:1-3 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL THE WORLD should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And ALL went to be taxed, every one into his own city."

Mark 1:5, "And there went out unto him ALL THE LAND of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were ALL baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."

Daniel 2:36-38, "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them ALL. You are that head of gold."

Ezra 1:2, "Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD Elohim of heaven hath given me ALL the kingdoms of the earth;"

Romans 10:18 "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into ALL THE EARTH, and their words unto the ends of the world."

We know the answers to the following questions, but in light of the verses above let's ask the obvious: Did Caesar literally tax the whole world? Did every last man, woman and child in Judea and Jerusalem get baptized in the Jordan River? Did Nebuchadnezzar or Cyrus literally rule over the entire earth, or rule over the native indians in North and South America? Was the Gospel preached to the whole literal earth during the lives of the disciples? We know that the answer to each of these questions is no, as the verses above are obvious example of a figure of speech known as a synecdoche.

This is the same thing in Col 1:23, "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; whereof I Paul am made a minister." We know that Paul did not preach to crickets, frogs and polar bears. It may sound silly to say that, but that would be the logical conclusion we would have to draw if one were to not employ common sense and only read this verse in a wooden, literal sense.

What we are readying here is a figure of speech called a "synecdoche." This is often used, especially when referring to kings and their kingdoms. The kingdom of Antichrist is no different. Many of us may often recognize figures of speech in Scripture such as Col 1:23 above, but then deny that any references to Antichrist could ever use this figure of speech, despite the fact that a number of other verses in Scripture in the context of Antichrist suggest it very strongly.

Logically, Antichrist cannot have global power if he is fighting so many wars until the end and is worrying about other nations. The pre-trib position has made Antichrist's rule so universal and the tribulation so horrendous that virtually nobody on earth could ever possibly survive, yet there are entire nations all throughout the earth that are not even destroyed either during the "thymos" wrath or the "orge" wrath. Why?

Mitchell said...

Nathan says, "the Pre-Trib view does have the Church escourting Jesus back at the Second Coming, but after 7 years of being in Heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb."

In each example of "apantesis", the escort back is immediate. You don't see them going out to meet the subject, then going to where the subject came from for days, weeks or years, and then escorting the subject back. That was not the custom. The subject who was coming is met by those who are already at his destination. And what is His destination? Where we were -- EARTH! :) The pre-trib view had this custom completely distorted.

As for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, this helps to prove a post-trib rapture bro, because the Marriage Supper of the Lamb IS the rapture. And where does John place the Marrige Supper? After the tribulation.

Rev 19:2-3,6-7, "For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever ... And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude , and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

Who is the multitude? It is the exact same great multitude that came out of the Great Tribulation. After just describing the cosmic signs that Jesus says will happen immediately after the tribulation, John writes in Rev 7:9,14, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb ... These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

This is the rapture brother! And as you can see from the real meaning of the 144,000, this is when the Church is married to Christ Jesus. Praise God!! Man I love the Word of God, it is so rich.

Check out this 4 min video (music is good, but not as lovely as the last one):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiE1SxFz9_w

Nathan says, "you only see God's wrath at the end of the Tribulation, while it's crystal clear Jesus opens the scrolls releasing the wrath of God from the very beginning."

There are two kinds of wrath: "thymos" (where the wicked have the chance to repent), and "orge" (they've already made their choice and it's too late). The "thymos" is happening throughout the trib, but the "orge" is at the end only after their time is up. Show me one verse that says we will not be present to witness the "thymos" upon the wicked.

Nathan says, "And so, Joel and Habakkuk's plea for mercy cover the full 7 years and not just the very end (days are cut short mercifully, remember? Matt. 24:22)."

Hold up, Joel has just described the Day of the Lord. Notice what he says:

Joel 2:11-12, "And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army...". The Lord only does this after his post-trib Second Coming. Now notice what Joel then writes God saying:

"... for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart , and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning"

Why would God say this unless there were those who still needed to heed it? Though the AC's people are now destroyed, there will be many who did not take the Mark and worship the AC. It should be no surprise that there are many Gentile nations all throughout the earth even after the Day of the Lord. Not everyone on the planet will take the MOTB and worship Antichrist.

Mitchell said...

Nathan says, "We've discussed Bible prophecy for over a year now, Mitchell, and I have to say I detect a different view coming from you now, more of a Pre-Wrath view blended with a Post-Trib view. Sounds new and distinct. Part of the Progressive Dispensationalist view you hold or your own?"

I've always been post-trib / pre-wrath. I do not agree with Marvin Rosenthal's version of the pre-wrath position, however (which is what people normally mean when they say "pre-wrath").

I had a lengthy debate with Alan Kurschner over on Joel's Trumpet. I definitely do not hold Marvin Rosenthal's (and Alan Kurschner's) pre-wrath position.

http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=1973#comment-178196

My position is almost identical to that of Roland Rasmussen. What I have done is studied all of the various views, and at the end of the day I kept the meat and spit out the bones. :)

http://www.amazon.com/Post-Trib-Pre-Wrath-Rapture-Roland-Rasmussen/dp/0965178900

Anonymous said...

Just got back and so much to read.

Mitchell, again you use the same argument that, because the word orge isn’t used prior to the 6th seal, it isn’t present. Neither is the church mentioned over a large portion of Revelation or (significantly) in the Rev 7 multitude discussion between John and the elder – does that mean it isn’t there? Once again, neither is the rapture mentioned at the 7th trumpet (where the context is wrath of the 7 bowls) and the only resurrection occurs at Rev 20, which you backdate. But Rom 13 clearly tells us that human governments act as agents of God’s wrath/orge. Again compare Rev 6:8 with Ezekiel 14:21 where we see God’s judgments of famine, sword, wild beasts and plague. I don’t see a pre-trib “stretch” there. I think it’s likely that Rev 3:10 is a promise for the church to be kept out of all this.

You say pre-trib isn’t found in Scripture unless the text is approached with that assumption, yet you build a case in your mind for these events presuming post-trib and a regional Islamic AC. I’m not uncomfortable with the events of the 7th trumpet or Rev 10 as I’ve seen several different interpretations of this. I just don’t see it necessarily supporting post-trib or mid-trib. We all bring some assumptions to the table.

Quoting Zech 14 and other verses doesn’t actually explain how a post-trib scenario allows people to enter the Millennium in their physical bodies after the rapture and the Sheep and Goats judgment - compare Rev 13:8 with Rev 14:9-10. These verses are global rather than pin-pointed and divide people into two classes – saved and unsaved. You interpret Revelation based on an Islamic regional theory and assume a third category of people that haven’t taken the Mark, yet haven’t been raptured.

BTW, the word “apantesis” is, arguably, not technical in the way you suggest. It has been used in other ways in Greek literature (see K Zuber etc). John 14 contradicts the U turn theory which is why pre-mil posties need to argue around it.

RG

Mitchell said...

RG says, "Mitchell, again you use the same argument that, because the word orge isn’t used prior to the 6th seal, it isn’t present."

Hi brother, that's because the "orge" of God is not present prior to the 6th Seal according to Scripture. There is no getting around this fact.

RG says, "Neither is the church mentioned over a large portion of Revelation or (significantly) in the Rev 7 multitude discussion between John and the elder – does that mean it isn’t there?"

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but if you're saying that since the word "Church" isn't mentioned it must not either be present, or isn't intended for the Church, but in either case please be aware of just how weak this argument is. The book of Rev is an epistle, so it was written for the Church. As for the word "church" not being used after Revelation 3, we need to consider that the Church isn't mentioned in Mark, Luke, John, Galatians, Ephesians, 2 Peter, 1 John and 2 John either, and not until the 16th chapter of Romans, so I guess if Revelation doesn't apply to the church because the word "Church" isn't used after 3:22 then using that logic a large portion of the entire New Testament doesn't apply to the Church either.

The word "saint" or "saints" however is used 59 times in the New Testament, referring to believers in Christ (ie, the church). This term is used repeatedly in Rev for the church as well. Christians are directly mentioned in Rev 14:12, saying "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the FAITH OF JESUS", and Rev 20:4-5 says in no uncertain terms that those who do not worship the beast or receive the mark and are killed for "the witness of JESUS" and will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

RG says, "Once again, neither is the rapture mentioned at the 7th trumpet (where the context is wrath of the 7 bowls)"

The words "rapture" or "gathering of the elect" does not need to be there. There is no getting around the fact that at the 7th and last trumpet, a "mighty messenger" who is obviously Jesus Christ descends from heaven and shouts, and that the mystery of God is then completed. It is the mystery that is completed (teleō - fulfilled) once the last trump begins to sound that should immediately point us to the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and then the translation of those who are still alive and remain. We've already been told of the mystery of the Church being married to Christ, and the mystery that at the last trump the dead in Christ would rise and the rapture would take place.

I understand that you're resisting this, so I await your response regarding what you believe this mystery to be.

Mitchell said...

RG says, "and the only resurrection occurs at Rev 20, which you backdate."

I'm not sure what you mean by backdate, but John definitely places this resurrection after the tribulation. He also makes the point to specifically call this resurrection the First Resurrection.

Now consider the logical implications of what John is telling us: If the First Resurrection is after the tribulation as Rev 20 clearly states, then there is no resurrection before it, and if there is no resurrection before the tribulation then there is therefore no rapture before the tribulation. It is impossible, because the dead in Christ must rise FIRST. (Also, why would the text in 1 Thess 4:17 say those who are "alive and remain" if the rapture was pre-trib? It wouldn't make much sense.) The only way for the pre-trib position to get around this dilemma that I can see is to separate the First Resurrection into "phases", which is not supported in Scripture at all, anywhere. In fact, due to the "phases" contention, the pre-trib position is essentially stating that the rapture takes place before the First Resurrection is even fully completed, yet Scripture is clear that the dead in Christ rise FIRST, and THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up. According to Rev 20:4 there are obviously still those who are dead in Christ at the end of the trib who will be raised in the First Resurrection. The Second Coming of Christ immediately after the tribulation is the only time that the rapture can take place according to Scripture, not before it.

RG says, "But Rom 13 clearly tells us that human governments act as agents of God’s wrath/orge. Again compare Rev 6:8 with Ezekiel 14:21 where we see God’s judgments of famine, sword, wild beasts and plague."

The human agents of God's wrath are upon those that do evil, not upon the righteous. But this argument cannot be used in the context of the trumpets/bowls, because it is GOD who is doing this, not human agents, and the "orge" of God that we read of in the eschaton of Revelation is always in a post-trib context.

Mitchell said...

RG says, "I think it’s likely that Rev 3:10 is a promise for the church to be kept out of all this."

Jesus says "keep thee from", not "remove thee from". The Greek for "keep thee from" in Rev 3:10 is "tereo ek" and is the exact wording used in John 17:15: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

The Greek "tereo" means "to attend to carefully; take care of; to guard; to reserve; to keep, one in the state in which he is" and does not mean to remove from the earth but to rather watch over during the time of testing. Jesus even prayed in John 17:15 "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world". Rev 3:10 is saying that we will be kept from the hour of temptation by being watched over, guarded, during this time and not removed from it.

Many of us have kids that attend public school, but we keep them from false teachings such as evolution. How? We watch over them and keep them grounded in the Truth of Scripture, not by removing them from school.

Let's look at some other translations of Rev 3:10:

Rev 3:10, "Because you kept my Word in passionate patience, I'll keep you safe in the time of testing..." (MSG)

Rev 3:10, "Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing..." (NLT)

Rev 3:10, "You have obeyed my word and been patient. So I will keep you safe in the time of trouble..." (WE)

Rev 3:10, "You obeyed my message and endured. So I will protect you from the time of testing..." (CEV)

Con't

Mitchell said...

Con't

Now, is this being watched over physical in nature, or something else?

The Greek word for "endure" or "persevere" is "hypomone" (G5281) which means "steadfastness" or "steadfast waiting for" or "patiently enduring". Per the context we see that "perseverance" is closely related to the "hour of testing," which is "peirasmos" (G3986) and means to "examine" or "prove". Peirasmos is frequently translated, "to tempt" which is important because Scripture tells us that it is Satan who tempts. 1 Thess 3:5 reads "For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter (Satan) might have tempted you, and our labor should be in vain". James 1:2,12 tell us "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials (peirasmois). Blessed is the man that perseveres (hypomone) under trial (peirasmon)." In the next verse James says that God "does not tempt anyone." This refers to the "hour of testing" in Rev 3:10 using the identical Greek word: "The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer... Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing (peirasmos), as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Peter 4:7,12,13). As previously mentioned, Christ reveals His Glory after the tribulation (Matt 24:30). Moreover, in 2 Peter 2:9 we read "then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation (peirasmos), and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment." In both cases the believer is present during the peirasmos and not removed from it.

So, even though there are those who are killed during the trib they are not kept safe physically per Rev 3:10 (though God can do that if it be His will), but are kept from the deception and temptation of the evil during this time. Many will die "for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" because they will not have "worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands." The soul is more important than the body.

Mitchell said...

RG says, "You say pre-trib isn’t found in Scripture unless the text is approached with that assumption, yet you build a case in your mind for these events presuming post-trib and a regional Islamic AC."

It is what the whole of Scripture points to. I use to be pre-trib, even though I knew there were a lot of problems with it.

RG says, "Quoting Zech 14 and other verses doesn’t actually explain how a post-trib scenario allows people to enter the Millennium in their physical bodies after the rapture and the Sheep and Goats judgment"

This judgment is for nations, not for individuals. That alone should point to the fact that there will be many surviving Gentile nations after the trib.

RG says, "compare Rev 13:8 with Rev 14:9-10. These verses are global rather than pin-pointed and divide people into two classes – saved and unsaved. You interpret Revelation based on an Islamic regional theory and assume a third category of people that haven’t taken the Mark, yet haven’t been raptured."

Let's see. I'll bold the parts that you're not considering:

Rev 13:8, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Notice that there is a group here who does not worship the Beast, for their names are written in the Book of Life. Now let's look at the following verse to learn something else:

Rev 17:8, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

I believe that EVERYONE who is saved or who will be saved in the future has their name written in this book right now. I believe that this will include all those among the Gentile nations who survive the trib.

The Book of Life has been written since the foundation of the world, and God in His foreknowledge knew of all those who would be made righteous through Christ Jesus.

Rev 13:8 is not global, nor is Rev 14:9-10, for there will be many who do not worship Antichrist or receive his mark. This is evident in the fact that the Old Testament describes many surviving Gentile nations after the Second Coming of Christ.

RG says, "John 14 contradicts the U turn theory which is why pre-mil posties need to argue around it."

Please explain, then we can discuss.

Mitchell said...

RG, you're likely referring to John 14:1-3, "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. ]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

What does Jesus mean when He says "I will come again and receive you to Myself"? The Greek for "receive" is paralambanō, and in this context it means to be joined in a very personal way.

What Jesus is saying here in this passage is that He is going from earth to heaven, and when He returns from heaven to earth He will receive us or gather us to Himself. This is precisely what the post-trib position teaches, and John 14:1-3 in fact supports the post-trib position for when He returns we are gathered and received to Christ as He returns to earth to establishe His Millennial Kingdom, which is after the Tribulation. See the multitude of Revelation 7 that comes out of the Great Tribulation. See the meaning of the 144,000. See the mystery of the Church being joined to Christ at His Coming, both the living and the resurrected dead.

Now what are the "mansions" that Christ refers to? Read here:

http://www.tribulationcentral.com/mansions.html

If we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, we find that Scripture always supports a post-trib resurrection and gathering of all the elect, John 14 included.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said “This is one reason why Progressive Dispensationalism is becoming so popular among posttribbers etc. However this creates a range of problems which I won’t go into here”.

I haven’t been back for a while, and I am amazed that this thread has grown so much. The Postie Mitchell exhibits the same tangled web of reasoning’s that my Postie does, so it is great to see the responses to that view. Well done, good stuff!

Thank you so much for your opinion on Lev.26 and the Trib. Please could you clarify a little why Progressive Disp. creates problems. I have come across it briefly, and assumed it just meant we were understanding things better as time goes by.

Lilibet

Debra Jones said...

There are seven years of tribulation Jesus called the first half of Daniels week of years the beginning of Sarows we will hear of wars and rumors of wars. All believers are on the earth. Please remember when God says He is going to do anything He has to do whatever He says. He's going to do it because He can not lie. Pretibers fail to realize that the reconciliation of all things which Daniel 9:24 spoke of must take place before Jesus can leave heavenly places for the rapture as is said in "Acts 3:20 that He may send Jesus Christ who was preached to you before 21 whom heaven must receive (til when?)until the time of the restoration of all things." all prophecy and vision must be sealed up just as God said in Daniel 9:24 to bring an end to sin to make reconciliation for inequity this reconciliation is made by killing all the sons of lawlessness in the battle of armagedon. So Christ shows up for the Battle of armagedon at which time He and His forces kill the unrighteous. Debra Jo Jones Facebook.

Debra Jones said...

Isaiah 13:9 Debra again: All the things I spoke of happen just before the world is sterilized by a consuming fire which will sanitize the earth of ungodliness, as He himself declared at Isaiah 30:25 In the day of the great slaughter When the towers (the word used here in aramaic is migdall can actually be interpreted as the pulpit of Satan)falls 26 Moreover the light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven fold, As the light of seven days In the day the the Lord binds up the bruise of His people and heals the stroke of their wound. As a Gamma ray burst or a supernova will take place which will consume the earth but
Gods People won't be hear as when Jesus shows up riding his white horse along with the souls of those who had been martyred for their testimony to God riding on white horses beside Him they will be accompanied by an innumerable host of angel and the New Holy Temple of Jerusalem which we will enter after the battle to relax and party in as it will be adorned like the bride for the bridegoom and we will take part in the grand celebration that will be the marriage supper of the Lord for 45 days the temple will remain in the Heavens. Debra Jo Jones Facebook

Debra Jones said...

We as Gods children are to be His eyewitnesses to these things as He said in Isaiah 43:10 You are My witnesses, “says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. 11 I, even I am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior. 12 I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses.” So we will witness from the New Holly Temple of Jerusalem where we are safe, secure and celebrating our our reconciliation and the removal of the curse on men the earth as it is consumed by fire through walls of gold so pure that they are like glass, as the fire vaporizes the oceans of the earth. We will reside in the temple for 45 days which is why Daniel 12:11 said there shall be 1290 as by that day the resurection of the dead and the transformation of those living from mortal to imortal would have taken place and we will have participated in bring an end to Satans reign when the battle of armagedon occurs then after that the next great blessing on the 1,335 day 45 days latter when the temple comes to rest on the old temple site and we come out of the temple to be crowned Kings Queens and High priests over the kingdom of Heaven to be trained during the millenial period to reign over those to be awakened at the end of that time for the Great White Throne judgement. Debra Jo Jones The name Debra comes from the Hebrew root word God Speaks Jo Means Mother of Nations and Jones means favored of God He blessed me with a name that speaks good things.