Friday, February 19, 2010

Jones Interview: Rapture Timing

Nathan JonesPDFBy Nathan Jones

In December 2009 I was interviewed by Bill Salus, author of the popular Psalm 83-themed book Isralestine, host of the radio program "Prophecy Update," and evangelist on the end times website Prophecy Depot. Bill and I spent much of the interview discussing the Rapture, Middle East politics and my "left behind" video "Jesus Came. What's Next?"


Bill Salus

Bill has been kind enough to allow The Christ in Prophecy Journal to reproduce the "Caught Up in the Pre-Trib Rapture" interview in transcript form, edited into an article series. To listen to the original radio program in mp3 format, I invite you to visit Prophecy Depot or KWBB.

In this segment, Bill and I will be discussing the various views concerning the timing of the Rapture.


Rapture Versus Second Coming

Bill Salus: Let's talk about why the Rapture is a Pre-Trib event, happening before the Tribulation.

Chuck Missler believes the Rapture will be a Pre-Tribulational event. He says to those that don't agree, thinking the Rapture will occur in the middle of the Tribulation (the Mid-Tribbers) or the end of the Tribulation (the Post-Tribbers), that when we are caught up Pre-Trib we will just explain it to them on the way up." What humor!

But, there are a lot of arguments developed around the Rapture taking place during the middle of the Tribulation, or at the end of the Tribulation. Why do you feel that the Rapture happens in the beginning of the Tribulation, or is it before the Tribulation like in the Pre-Trib view?

Nathan Jones: I had to get my mind around this topic early on. It's easy to listen to people and just say, "Yeah, he's right." But, I felt I had to go deeper and so sat down and went through the Rapture verses such as Isaiah 26:19-21; John 14:1-14; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. I also looked at the Second Coming verses such as Zechariah 14:1-21; Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew's comparison in Mark and Luke; as well as Revelation 19. When one looks at the Second Coming verses of Jesus Christ, and then looks at the Rapture verses — they tell two different stories. And so, they must then be describing two very different events.

For instance, in the Rapture believers meet Christ up in the air. We are brought from the ground up to the air, but in the Second Coming Jesus comes down to the Earth and actually lands on the Earth at the Mount of Olives, which then happens to split. Why would the Rapture verses leave out such a major piece of the story like the splitting of the Mount of Olives? It is all covered with graves right now, which I saw having been there. The Mount is actually going to break into two! That is a major event to leave out of the Rapture story.

Bill Salus: So, the Rapture is not going to be a bungee cord drop where Jesus comes down, grabs us, goes up, and comes back down again?

Nathan Jones: Oh, no, not at all. We continue to read in the Rapture believers go up to Heaven, but in the Second Coming glorified believers come from Heaven to meet Earthly believers already here. Where did those believers on Earth come from? In the nanosecond the Rapture happened people will come to know the Lord as Savior and be ready to meet Jesus? There has to be a time period between those two groups of believers.

The Rapture is deliverance for the Church. We are delivered from the wrath to come. But, in the Second Coming there are believers enduring the wrath of the Tribulation, which Jesus rescues them from by His Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation.

With the Rapture there is no sign that precedes it, but with Jesus' Second Coming then there are tons of signs that precede it. We know from the Bible that the Antichrist sets up a one world government. It will be an intense time of persecution for Israel and Tribulation Saints. We read about world-wide judgments like oceans turning into blood. Everything apocalyptic like raining fire and brimstone happens before the Second Coming.


Post-Tribulation Rapture

Nathan Jones: After sitting down and reading through all these comparisons between the Rapture verses and the Second Coming verses, I could only conclude that it is impossible for there to be a Post-Trib Rapture — a Rapture that happens at the end of the Tribulation.

If believers are raptured at the very end of the Tribulation they would go up, get their glorified bodies which are like angels in that they can't reproduce, then immediately come back down with Jesus to reign in the Millennial Kingdom. So, who is creating children? Glorified bodies are not creating children. The Bible talks about all the believers coming through the Sheep-Goat Judgment who will live through the Tribulation and enter the Millennial Kingdom and have children. There has to be believers left to have children. So, I think the Post-Trib Rapture view doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


Mid-Tribulation Rapture

Nathan Jones: There's also the Mid-Tribulation Rapture view. It says the Rapture happens in the middle of the Tribulation. It's based on the 1 Corinthians 15:52 verse about the last trumpet blowing. This view then jumps to the conclusion that the "last trumpet" must be the Seventh Trumpet Judgment in the series of Seal, Trumpet and Bowl/Vial Judgments described in Revelation. It's an assumption that the Seventh Trumpet Judgment is the "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15.

When we follow the feasts of Israel we see a lot of major events have happened in the Bible during some of those feasts. The Church began for instance on the Feast of Pentecost. And so, I think that trumpet verse is particularly talking about the last Feast of Trumpets during the Church Age.

Of the 114 references to trumpets, I don't know why the Mid-Trib Rapture position grabs onto the idea that the "last trumpet" is the Seventh Trumpet Judgment.


Pre-Wrath Rapture

Nathan Jones: Concerning the Pre-Wrath Rapture view, it claims the wrath of God happens only during the Bowl Judgments in the last quarter or so of the Tribulation, and that any judgments like the Seal and the Trumpet Judgments are merely the wrath of man or the wrath of Satan. But, God handed out those trumpets. They come from the throneroom of God. Jesus is the one who opens the Seal Judgments from the very first seal, and so the wrath that God is shown to be poured out throughout the entire Tribulation.

The Pre-Wrath view has it right when it states that the Church is supposed to be raptured before the wrath of God is poured out, but gets what the wrath of God is wrong. The wrath of God begins the Tribulation, so again, the Rapture happen before the Tribulation begins.

106 comments:

hartdawg said...

here is a question, and if anyone can answer me (anyone with a sincere open mind and not an indoctrinated mind) i`d greatly appreciate it. her it is: rapture, meet the Lord i the air. 2nd coming, seperate sheep from the goats. rapture the Lord himself descends and he "recieves us unto himself" 2nd coming he sends his angels to gather his elect. rapture we get resurrected bodies 2nd coming enter the milleneum with natural bodies. as Nathan pointed out. the question is how do posties get around those differences? i really wanna know. Mitchell, you`re welcome to answer this too. anyone?

Anonymous said...

Nathan, I believe you are incorrect regarding the Pre-Wrath view. In fact, they DO see the Trumpets as part of the wrath of God.

rg

hartdawg said...

there are some pre-wrathers who believe the wrath starts at the 6th seal, some at the trumpets and others with the bowls/vials.

hartdawg said...

hey, tell me if this observation is a stretch and poor scholarship: Jesus told Peter the very gates of hell will not prevail against the church, yet revelation ch 13 says it was given to him (anti-christ) to wage war and overcome the saints. if the church is here wouldnt that be yet another contradiction?

Anonymous said...

I guess it was inevitable there would be variations after Pre-Wrath’s intro. The official view, though, is that the trumpets are God’s wrath.

Chuck Missler makes the same point re the gates of hell and chap 13, hartdawg. I don’t see them as being quite the same thing. I think one refers to martyrdom etc and the other to hell specifically. Any other views?

rg

hartdawg said...

yes, but its post-trib. mid-tribs say christ returns at the 7th trump. some posties say the same thing. the say anti-christ comes at the 6th seal, 6th trump and 6th vial. 666 (seals, trumpets and vials are concurrent. the same events) jesus returns at the 7th seal, 7th vial and 7th trump. 777. so both mid-tribs and alot of post-tribs say its the 7th trump.

DrNofog said...

Hart, RG,
Our pastor spoke on that a couple weeks ago... Without a doubt, Jesus has been growing His ekklesia for 2000yrs and hell has not prevailed at all!
We're part of the winning team.
The problem here is that a lot of people try to include the Trib "saints" in with the church that was "raptured" at Rev. 4:1.
The Trib "saints" are under the OT conditions of the 70th final week.

hartdawg said...

percisely my point! dr nofog. 1)if the church were present it would be called the church, not the saints 2)the church would prevail, not anti-christ. which is why its a contradiction unless we were raptured. you hit the nail on the head.

rg said...

Interesting point, DrNofog. But can we say that hell prevails against the Trib saints? They're martyred etc but hell has no power over them. Also, if people are saved after the rapture, can they be classified as the church? If so, then the church experiences God’s wrath. Perhaps a problem for the other views.

Thoughts?

Hartdawg, I find the whole 7th trumpet at the 6th seal thing messy and convoluted.

DrNofog said...

Right arm, brothers!

Hell only "prevails" against the Trib-saint's mortal bodies in Rev.13:7, but Rev.15:2 shows who really prevails!

The other problem is that most people's over-emphasis, in Matthew 16:18, is on the "church", and not Jesus! - "...and **I will build** my church; & the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

That's His Promise and that's His Finish!!!

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

hartdawg said...

"messy and convoluted?" rg i totally agree.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Nathan and all.

The reason I use the handle ‘Expected Imminently’ is to counteract a Pre-Wrath teaching that I read in Dr. Reynald E. Showers excellent examination and critique called “The Pre-wrath Rapture View”. Chapter 10 is “The Imminent Coming of Christ” where he gives a clear definition of the word ‘imminent’; which means ‘overhanging’ (like the sword of Damocles). Explaining that ‘imminence’ and ‘soon’ does not have to mean ‘immediate’, only that the timing of the event is uncertain, with no prior warning other than knowing to expect it.

Pre-wrath author Marvin Rosenthal claims “the Bible does not teach ‘imminency’. What it does teach is ‘expectancy’. . . .Thus the Bible teaches an expectant Rapture, not an imminent Rapture” (Rosenthal, ‘Pre-Wrath Rapture’ pp. 282-284).

However the term ‘imminent’ is an adjective used to describe the NATURE of an event. In contrast the term ‘expected’ is an adjective describing a person’s ATTUTUDE toward an event. Thus the Rapture is both expected by us and the event remains imminent.
E.I.

Expected Imminently said...

I find it puzzling that Pre-wrath does teach we are to ‘expect’ the Rapture, asserting that Postie scholar J. Barton Payne has denied that “the apostolic church held an ‘any moment’ view of the Lord’s coming”.

Yet in Postie Paynes book “The Imminent Appearing of Christ” he quotes Rosenthal’s use of Payne’s work in his book the ‘Pre-Wrath Rapture’ pp.54, 55, 266). Yet Rosenthal’s appeal to Payne to substantiate his view is refuted and corrected by Payne who does deny a belief in imminency of Christ’s coming but ONLY in relation to ‘the EARLY apostolic church’, but NOT in the LATTER part of the apostolic church.

So Pre-wrath AND Posties (some) DO support imminence either directly, or indirectly, which given the official definition of the term ‘imminent’ (nothing HAS to happen before an imminent event) seems extremely contradictory at the very least! Pre-Wrath sees up to around the 6th seal and Posties the entire 7 years events before the Rapture. These views accept and reject imminency at one and the same time. Confused and devoid of consistency methinks, very odd.
E.I.

Expected Imminently said...

rg said...
“Interesting point, DrNofog. But can we say that hell prevails against the Trib saints? They're martyred etc but hell has no power over them. Also, if people are saved after the rapture, can they be classified as the church? If so, then the church experiences God’s wrath. Perhaps a problem for the other views."


The formation of Christ’s Bride, the Church is complete at the Rapture. The Holy Spirit releases her into the care of the Bridegroom who keeps His promise to return for her when her room is prepared. It is while in heaven the marriage takes place and the bridegroom presents her to the Father then the marriage begins.

Meanwhile back on earth the Tribulation rages with fresh souls won by the gospel of the kingdom. These are not a part of the Church/Bride, they are a separate company as are the OT saints; at the wedding FEAST they will be among the guests of the Bridegroom. These are a problem to Posties, mainly because they refuse to acknowledge the distinction between Israel and the Church, they have them as one people, not separate. This is their major stumbling block.

Hell is prepared for Satan, host and those who refuse Salvation; not those who place their faith in Christ for Salvation by His shed Blood. Hell is because Satan is; who would take as many down with him as possible. Satan and hell cannot prevail over the Church because she is justified and sanctified by Christ, they are out of reach, 'seated in heavenly places';they are not 'earthdwellers'. Though he try, Satan cannot overcome the Church.

The Tribulation saints are not a part of the sanctified Church so will be vulnerable to Satan’s wrath, he will prevail over them while alive or until the 2nd Coming making the Tribulation period significantly worse than the spiritual battle known by the Church today. imo.
E.I.

Expected Imminently said...

An important Q is at what point in time did imminency for the Rapture begin? Posties have all manner of contrary ‘evidence to prove’ imminency was not known to the apostolic church. One concerns Jesus telling Peter he would die by crucifixion, thus they maintain an event that must occur before the rapture because Jesus prophesied it had to occur. There are a variety of ways to disprove this stance, but the axe is best laid to the root. It is thought Peter, being a Jew, died by crucifixion in Rome, under Nero’s persecution around the same time Paul, being a Roman citizen, was beheaded, around A.D.67-68.

Luke 21:20 has the answer. Jesus is exhorting the Jews and giving them an outline of things to expect in their OWN day until the beginning of the kingdom saying “When you see these things BEGIN to come to pass, ‘look up’.. The context in Luke ‘of these things’ refers back to Luke 21:20-24 which concerns the SIGN of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. This destruction was in A.D. 70 under Titus, which fulfilled EVERY prophecy which needed to be fulfilled before the Rapture could take place. Even then there was no way of knowing when Jerusalem would be surrounded by the armies and to flee the city, so even that caused ‘expectancy’.

Jesus did not say “When all these things HAVE COME to pass, look up”. Neither did He say “You must wait until AFTER the Tribulation for all these things to come to pass, look up”. Not at all, Jesus said “When you see all these things BEGIN to come to pass, look up, for your redemption draws nigh”. The BEGINNING was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, so it was from this beginning that the instruction of look up refers to. Imo
E.I.

Anonymous said...

Exp Im, you have been busy!

I don’t think the trib saints are the church either. I remember reading an argument where someone said God’s wrath couldn’t be present in the 5th seal because that would mean His actions directly causes martyrdom, and the church cannot experience God’s wrath. The first problem with that is that the act of opening the seal only reveals the events; it does not cause them. The other problem with that line of reasoning is that people need to become saved after the rapture and prior to the mil. If one assumes that there is no difference between the church and trib saints, then those saved after the rapture will experience God’s wrath. So the argument about the 5th seal does not hold.

I generally stay away from the imminency arguments. Your last paragraph is spot on! Dr Fruchtenbaum makes the same points and it makes a whole lot o’ sense to me.

rg

Expected Imminently said...

Yep! I’m like a big balloon full of hot air; it escapes my mouth and it sets off at a rate of knots ththththththp! dispelling thoughts hither, thither and yon. :D
E.I.

DrNofog said...

E.I.,
A good go, but sorry, you didn't win back Mitchell's crown. You were just a wee bit short...
http://www.lamblion.us/2010/02/are-you-standing-for-righteousness.html
;-D

Nathan Jones said...

RG, indeed the Pre-Wrath supporters do vary in their interpretation of what "wrath" is exactly the wrath of God. Their dilemma is where to place the Trumpet Judgments, which they tend to place closer to the end of the Tribulation. And yet, they are clearly placed in the first half of the Tribulation in the chronological layout of the book of Revelation.

Mitchell said...

Nathan Jones said, "If believers are raptured at the very end of the Tribulation they would go up, get their glorified bodies which are like angels in that they can't reproduce, then immediately come back down with Jesus to reign in the Millennial Kingdom."

1 Thess 4:17, "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

When this verse is understood the way that it was intended it does not allow in any way, shape or form for there to be a pre-trib gathering of the elect. Here is why.

The word used for “meet” here is the Greek word “apantesis”, and this word only occurs here and in three other places. In Matthew 25:1,6 it describes the virgins going out to meet the bridegroom, to escort him back into the house. In Acts 28:14-16 it is used to describe brethren from Rome coming out to Appii Foru, to meet Paul and his company, and then escort them back to Rome. In each example of "apantesis", the escort back is immediate. We don't have them going out to meet the subject, then going to where the subject came from for days, weeks or years, and then escorting the subject back. That was not the custom. The subject who was coming is met by those who are already at his destination. And what is His destination? Where we are -- EARTH!

Aside from 1 Thess 4:17 these are the only occurrences of the word. In the post-trib view, the elect are gathered in the air to meet Jesus and then we accompany Him back to Earth immediately, according to the "apantesis" of 1 Thess 4:17, which is consistent with its usage in each of the other three verses of Scripture. The pre-trib position, however, suddenly changes the intended meaning of the word. Instead of us escorting Jesus back to Earth immediately for His Second Coming, the pre-trib position has us conveniently going to Heaven instead, which the text does not say anywhere, at any place, at any time.

Mitchell said...

Nathan says, "So, who is creating children? Glorified bodies are not creating children."

I am often surprised that this question even comes up because Scripture is very clear that not only will there be a remnant of Jews that will enter the Millennial Kingdom, there will definitely be surviving Gentile nations as well.

Consider the following verses:

Joel 2:11-12, “And the LORD SHALL UTTER HIS VOICE BEFORE HIS ARMY…”. (The Lord only does this after His post-trib Second Coming.) Now notice what Joel then writes God saying: “… for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Therefore ALSO NOW, saith the LORD, TURN YE [EVEN] TO ME WITH ALL YOUR HEART, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning”

Why would God say this unless there were those who still needed to heed it?

Though the Antichrist and his people are now destroyed after Christ returns, there will be many who are not among the “elect” who will not have received the “Mark of the Beast” or worship Antichrist. If they are not the elect, and they are not among Antichrist’s people who have been destroyed, then what group are they? I believe that Joel 2:11-12 is for this group of people (in addition to the Jewish remnant), young and old alike. It should therefore be no surprise that there will be many Gentile nations all throughout the earth even after the Day of the Lord.

There are portions of Scripture that without a doubt tell us there will be Gentile nations entering into the Millennial Kingdom:

Isa 2:2-4, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. AND HE SHALL JUDGE AMONG THE NATIONS, AND SHALL REBUKE MANY PEOPLE: AND THEY SHALL BEAT THEIR SWORDS INTO PLOWSHARES, AND THEIR SPEARS INTO PRUNINGHOOKS: NATION SHALL NOT LIFT UP SWORD AGAINST NATION, NEITHER SHALL THEY LEARN WAR ANY MORE.

Isaiah is obviously talking about nations of the Earth that are not destroyed either during the Great Tribulation or after the Second Coming of Christ.

Isa 14:1-2, “For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. AND THE PEOPLE SHALL TAKE THEM, AND BRING THEM TO THEIR PLACE: AND THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL SHALL POSSESS THEM IN THE LAND OF THE LORD FOR SERVANTS AND HANDMAIDS: AND THEY SHALL TAKE THEM CAPTIVE, WHOSE CAPTIVES THEY WERE; AND THEY SHALL RULE OVER THEIR OPPRESSORS

-- Con't

Mitchell said...

Again, these verses wouldn’t make any sense unless it referred specifically to surviving Gentile nations.

Zech 14:9,16-19, “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one … AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT EVERY ONE THAT IS LEFT OF ALL THE NATIONS WHICH CAME UP AGAINST JERUSALEM shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of ALL NATIONS that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

Eze 36:24-28,36, “For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God…. THEN THE HEATHEN THAT ARE LEFT ROUND ABOUT YOU shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.”

Why are there so many Gentile survivors after the wrath of God on the Day of the Lord? God could destroy literally every last non-Christian or non-Jew on the planet if He wanted to. But I think the last portion of this verse is why many will live …

Hab 3:2, “O LORD, I have heard Your speech [and] was afraid; O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years! In the midst of the years make [it] known; In wrath remember mercy.”

After the post-trib rapture, there are many who will be alive after the Second Coming to repopulate the Earth. Scripture leaves no doubt about it.

Watch this short video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcMXU5nwkzw

Mitchell said...

Nathan said, "The Bible talks about all the believers coming through the Sheep-Goat Judgment who will live through the Tribulation and enter the Millennial Kingdom and have children. There has to be believers left to have children."

The Sheep-Goat judgment is for NATIONS, not for individuals. And believe me, after the Day of the Lord, the surviving nations will know that the Lord is GOD.

Mitchell said...

hartdawg says, "1)if the church were present it would be called the church, not the saints"

Hi brother! How have you been? Let me address this comment of yours, if I may. :)

We've often heard it said by those who believe in a pre-trib rapture that since the word "church" is not used after Rev 3:22 then the Church must not be present during the tribulation and/or that Revelation is therefore not meant for the Church. But if you really think about it, this is a very weak argument.

First, the Book of Revelation is an epistle, so it was written for the Church. Second, as for the word "church" not being used after Rev 3, consider this: the word "church" is not mentioned in Mark, Luke, John, Galatians, Ephesians, 2 Peter, 1 John and 2 John either, and not until the 16th chapter of Romans, so if Revelation doesn't apply to the church because the word "church" isn't used after 3:22 then using the same logic a large portion of the entire New Testament doesn't apply to the church either.

The word "saint" or "saints" however is used 59 times in the New Testament, referring to believers in Christ (ie, the church). This term is used repeatedly throughout the various books of the New Testament, including Revelation. For instance, Christians are directly mentioned in Rev 14:12, saying "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the FAITH OF JESUS", and Rev 20:4-5 says in no uncertain terms that those who do not worship the beast or receive the mark and are killed for "the witness of JESUS" and will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

We find the words "saints" and "tribulation" in Scripture, but nowhere do we ever read about "tribulation saints". It does not exist.

hartdawg says, "2)the church would prevail, not anti-christ. which is why its a contradiction unless we were raptured."

Rev 15:2, "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the VICTORY over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name , stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

Does this verse sound like it is the Anti-Christ who prevails to you? :)

Anonymous said...

The Sheep-Goat judgment is for NATIONS, not for individuals. And believe me, after the Day of the Lord, the surviving nations will know that the Lord is GOD.

Interesting concept. I wonder how nations get judged while leaving individuals out? So as long as you don't belong to nation you're gonna be fine, right? It's a plan....

Mat 25:33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

rg

Mitchell said...

You're right RG, in order for nations to be judged individuals must be judged, however the sheep-goat judgment is for the Gentile (heathen) nations. "Who then?" you may ask is this referring to? There is a clue in one of my previous posts that gives you the answer. It starts with, "Though the Antichrist and his people are now destroyed after Christ returns ..." :)

Nathan Jones said...

Mitchell, long time! Hey, when did I ever say it is only the Gentiles that are destined for the Sheep-Goat Judgment? There will be both believing and unbelieving Jews by the end of the Tribulation as well.

We've gone around and around on this subject the last year+, so I'll let you and E.I. have at it. If you guys want to get into lengthy posts, swap emails. Thanks for understanding!

Mitchell said...

Hi Nathan brother, how have you been?

It is I who am saying that it is only for the Gentile (heathen) nations. Remember this is a post-trib judgment:

Matthew 25:31-32, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats."

Isaiah 2:4, "...he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people..."

Micah 4:3, "...he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off..."

You are correct, there will be many unbelieving Jews, but notice what the Apostle Paul writes concerning Jews who do not believe:

Rom 2:28-29, "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God."

Rom 9:6-8, "...For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.' In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."

Therefore, just because someone was born in Israel and is an Israeli citizen does not make them a Jew in the Biblical sense. Consequently, if they are not considered a Jew they are therefore counted among the heathen, and are judged in the Sheep-Goat judgment after the return of Christ.

That's how I see it.

Alan Kurschner said...

Nathan Jones said:

"Concerning the Pre-Wrath Rapture view, it claims the wrath of God happens only during the Bowl Judgments in the last quarter or so of the Tribulation, and that any judgments like the Seal and the Trumpet Judgments are merely the wrath of man or the wrath of Satan."

This is incorrect in two areas. First, the Prewrath position states that the trumpets are part of God's wrath. Could you cite for me any published prewrath primary literature that has the trumpets outside of God's wrath? Or even for that matter some lone, Internet, no-name prewrather? I have been involved with prewrath literature and ministries for over 15 years, and I have never heard of such a claim.

It is definitional of the prewrath position that the Day of the Lord's wrath begins with the opening of the Scroll at the seventh seal which contains trumpets and bowls.

Further, the prewrath position states that the bowls occur after the 70th week of Daniel, not during it. It is all documented in Rosenthal and Van Kampen's published works.

Thank you for your time,

Alan

www.prewrathrapture.com

Mitchell said...

Hi Alan, how have you been? Though you and I have had long discussions and do not see eye to eye in a few areas, we both agree on one thing -- we both understand that the pre-trib position is impossible. Good to see you here. How is your book coming along?

God bless!!

Alan Kurschner said...

Mitchell!

I hope you're doing well. I should have the book finished in a couple of months. Thanks for asking.

Take care!
Alan

Nathan Jones said...

Why is it that as soon as we begin talking about the timing of the Rapture all sorts of new people start jumping into the fray? Only other time I see this is during the "Beast from the East" discussions. :)

Nathan Jones said...

Alan, we're not going to agree because we're going to place the order and timing of the judgments in different places during the Tribulation. I prefer the literal chronological order.

Pre-Wrath supporters hardly agree. For instance, Marvin Rosenthal (The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, 1990) would disagree with you and places the wrath as beginning at the Sixth Seal (pg. 164).

What I'm still amazed is that anyone would say that God's wrath doesn't begin at the opening of the First Seal. Jesus Himself opens it!!!

Mitchell said...

Nathan asks, "Why is it that as soon as we begin talking about the timing of the Rapture all sorts of new people start jumping into the fray? Only other time I see this is during the 'Beast from the East' discussions."

A valid question, and I believe the answer is because the times, they are-a-changin'. There is a slow but steady paradigm shift taking place in the world of Biblical eschatology as we approach the end of days.

Daniel 12:9, "And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

If there were to be no changes in our understanding of eschatology, then this verse would mean nothing.

Alan Kurschner said...

Nathan Jones said:

"Pre-Wrath supporters hardly agree. For instance, Marvin Rosenthal (The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, 1990) would disagree with you and places the wrath as beginning at the Sixth Seal (pg. 164)."

You are in error. Go back and read what Rosenthal said. He affirms that the sixth seal announces the wrath of God and the at the seventh seal formally pronounces the wrath.

Rosenthal:

"The clear teaching of Scripture is that God's wrath is about to begin following the opening of the sixth seal and in anticipation of the opening of the seventh." page 164.

"In contemporary language, they want to "grandfather clause" the previous six seals and thus include them in the statement "the great day of his wrath is come." But such exegesis is strained and unjustified." page 165

Rosenthal continues to argue on that same page that the sixth seal shows the impending wrath of God.

This is so basic of prewrath and so say that "Pre-Wrath supporters hardly agree" is laughable.

You still have not provided your documentation of your source from your assertion previously about some prewrathers believing that the trumpets are not God's wrath.

But this is not surprising since pretribbers are notoriously for misrepresenting the prewrath position. Hence the reason, they would never get away with such claims in a public moderated debate.

Jones said:

"What I'm still amazed is that anyone would say that God's wrath doesn't begin at the opening of the First Seal. Jesus Himself opens it!!!"

No Jesus does not open it himself. That is a strained attempt.

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2007/10/the_first_six_seals_are_not_gods_wrath.php

Expected Imminently said...

Hey Nathan
I have just found this, I thought it had died.

Now what's this about me being the sacrificial maiden (well old bird then) on the altar of Postie; humph!charmed I'm sure.

One thing you definitely got right, no one reads long posts - well i didn't either. ;D

Nathan Jones said...

Mitchell, you gave me a chuckle when you said our understanding of eschatology is getting better closer to Jesus' return. Reminded me that Pre-Trib is always being accused of being "too new."

Alan, I'll have to look through my library to find what you're looking for. Can't today, though, working on tomorrows post. I'll give you props for being an expert in the Pre-Wrath Rapture view, but that means you're an expert at crazy talk when you argue that Jesus didn't open the First Seal, for only He was "worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals," (Rev. 5:9 - ie: nobody else could).

Anonymous said...

Michell, you're playing semantics. It's simple...individuals get judged at the S & G J.

rg

Mitchell said...

Nathan says, "Mitchell, you gave me a chuckle when you said our understanding of eschatology is getting better closer to Jesus' return. Reminded me that Pre-Trib is always being accused of being 'too new.'"

Our understanding of eschatology, yes. It was more in reference to the "Beast From The East" observation that you had. But, as for the rapture question, the 1830's isn't exactly the "time of the end" though. ;) The Church was post-trib in their view for the first 19 centuries of Christendom. Pre-tribism is more of a Western deviation of the historically held belief of post-tribism and historical premillennialism. I am willing to bet that over the next few years there will be a significant shift away from pre-tribism however and back to post-tribism.

RG, semantics? I guess that depends on how you view it primarily. According to Matthew 25:31-32, the sheep and goat judgment is described by Christ as judgment of the nations, and not individuals, so that is how I view it primarily.

Matt 25:31-32, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:"

But yes, this entails the people of those nations.

Nathan Jones said...

The Church was Post-Trib? These giants of the Church disagree. Anyway, you could make the same argument for Amillennialism, but you won't.

(Sheesh, how am I getting pulled into this circular conversation again! ;)

Alan Kurschner said...

The early Church did not believe that the rapture/resurrection would occur before Antichrist. Just the opposite. It is all documented:

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2009/08/the_teaching_of_the_early_church_on_the.php

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2009/08/what_did_early_church_teach_on_the_secon.php

Sal said...

Why is it soon as were talking hope in the rapture some guy comes along and says we have no hope but gonna die horribly. Must be fun at parties.

Alan Kurschner said...

Sal, your comment embodies what is all wrong about pretrib escapism.

Your hope is not in the rapture. Your hope is found in Jesus Christ whether you are having your head cut off by the Antichrist or in China being persecuted today.

Nothing can separated us from the love of Christ.

I pity the person with weak faith who will enter the Antichrist's Great Tribulation.

Nathan Jones said...

How can we enter the great tribulation if there's a Pre-wrath rapture? You show your true colors Alan... the desire to suffer for the Lord to prove yourself to him by some kind of work. Don't have to wait you can do that today in any muslim country.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Alan. Our hope is in the Lord whatever time the rapture occurs.

But pretrib escapism? I hear a tiny violin playing somewhere.

rg

Alan Kurschner said...

Nathan,

I am still waiting for your documentation on your assertion earlier. If you cannot provide your source, then the honorable thing to do is change your description of what prewrath affirms in your post.

Anyone remotely familiar with prewrath knows that your post is in error.

Credible research requires representing the other view accurately.

Expected Imminently said...

Sal
We have been warned about those who would steal from us the Blessed Hope.
See to it that no man takes your crown because the enemy of our souls only comes to steal and to destroy.
Chin up, look up and be ready to escape the Tribulation just as Jesus said.
I am definitely not a Tribulation wannabe, neither are you I'm sure.
Jesus can be expected imminently!
E.I. x

Expected Imminently said...

Alan! please take note, Nathan has already replied to your demands.

"Alan, I'll have to look through my library to find what you're looking for. Can't today, though, working on tomorrows post. I'll give you props for being an expert in the Pre-Wrath Rapture view, but that means you're an expert at crazy talk when you argue that Jesus didn't open the First Seal, for only He was "worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals," (Rev. 5:9 - ie: nobody else could).

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 2:57:00 PM CST

P.S. Have found and quickly scanned your site and couldn't wait to leave. It is so dry, bland and negative devoid of any hope and love, I shan't visit again.

E.I.

Alan Kurschner said...

but that means you're an expert at crazy talk when you argue that Jesus didn't open the First Seal, for only He was "worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals," (Rev. 5:9 - ie: nobody else could).

I thought you were referring to the first seal representing Christ. In my forthcoming book, I argue that it is Antichrist.

P.S. Have found and quickly scanned your site and couldn't wait to leave. It is so dry, bland and negative devoid of any hope and love, I shan't visit again.

Those who have been weaned on sensationalism for so long, of course, is going to find good biblical exegesis dry.

Our prophecy website will never be popular among the masses, since we focus on good sound exposition and not sensationalism. Nevertheless, we are faithful to the Word.

Expected Imminently said...

Biblical eisegesis is how I would define the site while being faithful to the pre-wrathitis word.

Insulting remarks against two learned men who are renowned for their balanced and faith inspiring Biblical exposition is, in my opinion, highly sensationalist.

As for being one of the masses, chance would be a fine thing. Reality bites when devoid of Christian fellowship and totally dependant upon faith in, and leadership by, The Holy Spirit.
E.I.

Mitchell said...

"Biblical eisegesis"? This, coming from one who cannot demonstrate any explicit teaching of a pre-trib rapture anywhere at all in Scripture? Regarding the pre-trib position, even John F. Walvoord readily admitted "There are no explicit scriptures, only implicit". How, then, can any Scripture be used as a proof-text for pre-tribism if they are only implicit? The answer -- it cannot be done. Consequently, every single argument that I have come across in support of a pre-trib rapture ALL use an eisegetical hermentic, each and every single time.

EI, I challenge you to show me even one argument in support of a pre-trib rapture where it is explicitly demonstrated in Scripture, without the use of "Biblical eisegesis". :)

Anonymous said...

Buddy, you reject preTrib "implicit" scriptures and they reject your postTribist "implicit" scriptures.

That way everyone's happy.

rg

Mitchell said...

RG says, "Buddy, you reject preTrib 'implicit' scriptures and they reject your postTribist 'implicit' scriptures."

You agree that 2 Thess 2:1 is referring to the gathering (rapture). It calls the rapture our "episynagōgē" (G1997), which is from "episynagō" (G1996). When does this happen? Jesus is explicitly clear:

Matthew 24:29-31, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven ... And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together (episynagō G1996) his elect (eklektos G1588) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Who are the elect?

Col 3:12, "Put on therefore, as the elect of God (eklektos G1588), holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering"

Titus 1:1, "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect (eklektos G1588), and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;"

1 Pet 1:2, "Elect (eklektos G1588) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."

There is no doubt about it. The Apostle Paul and Jesus both explicitly teach a post-trib rapture, which should not be surprising because Paul was using Jesus' teaching in the Olivet Discourse as the basis of his instructions to the Thessalonian believers and was simply repeating Jesus' instructions to His disciples.

As a side note, I have also demonstrated that the rapture is, without a doubt, found in Revelation 10. You can view it here.

Alan Kurschner said...

Mitchell,

I am glad you brought up that point about the gathering in 2 Thess 2:1. Pretribs always say that Jesus did not use rapture language in Matthew 24. But he did: twice. First, in verse 31 as you pointed out. They cannot be consistent when they say that Paul can use that term to refer to the rapture, but Jesus cannot.

Second, in the passage in Matthew 24 "one taken and the other left" (vv. 40-41) the Greek term is paralambano. Can you guess where else Jesus used this term? Yep, John 14:1-3 when he talks about the rapture! Again, it is inconsistent for a pretribber to say that Jesus can use this term the night before his death, but 2 days before he cannot use this term on the Mount of Olives!

Expected Imminently said...

Mitchell said "This, coming from one who cannot demonstrate any explicit teaching of a pre-trib rapture anywhere at all in Scripture?"

Not cannot - will not. Not with you anyway. Been there, done that I don't need the agro that results in fruitless wranglings over dotting the 'i'and crossing the 't'.

Baiting me to fight, I know ALLLL about. Symantic wrestling? no ta, but thanks ever so for offering!
E.I.

Nathan Jones said...

We can wrangle over the Greek all we want (and it's quite interesting, btw), but the deathtoll during the Tribulation itself proves Tribulation Saints are only specially protected from certain judgments. Overall, though, they will be slaughtered. Again - slaughtered by the millions (Rev. 7:9; 20:4)! If that's how God protects "through" the Tribulation He's not at all good at it (an impossibility).

As for Matt. 24:31's reference, if "elect" = saved and Tribulation Saints = saved then "elect" = Tribulation Saints. They will the ones being gathered, and not the elect of the OT or Church Ages.

Just because the masses of unbelievers call out from the caves to hide them from the "wrath of the Lamb" hardly denotes the Sixth Seal as beginning the wrath of God. For one, we're talking about deceived unbelievers' testimony, and two they're finally acknowledging God is behind the judgments. Really, this has got to be the flimsiest argument for when God's wrath begins (other than the Antichrist somehow can open the Seals).

Mitchell said...

One of the problems Nathan is that the pre-tribulation position only looks as the English word "wrath" and ignores the specific type of wrath that we are dealing with here in the eschaton. There is the "thymos" (specifically against Antichrist, his land and those who worship him, where people are still given the opportunity to repent) and then the "orge" (the post-trib wrath of God where no provision for repentance is given, the type of wrath that we as believers are not appointed to). We are not promised anywhere in Scripture however that we will not be here to witness the "thymos" of God being poured upon the wicked, nor are we promised anywhere that we will not be here to suffer the "thymos" of Satan. The only wrath we will be delivered from directly is the "orge" of God.

Moreover, how can Antichrist, who controls 10 nations, be killing every single Christian over every square inch of the planet? If Antichrist is ruling the whole planet, then why are other nations waging war against him? Why is he himself waging wars? Why is he so worried about news coming out of the east and the north? (Dan 11:44). If his rule is global, how can even one nation (Jordan, for example) not come under his control? (Dan 11:41). If the tribulation is so horrible over every grain of dirt in the world and the earth is being destroyed, how and where can anyone ever make time to "rejoice", "make merry" and "send gifts one to another" near the end of the tribulation? (Rev 11:10)

We've had this discussion a few times already, and I believe that I have demonstrated how and why the scope of Antichrist's persecution will be limited, primarily to the whole Middle Eastern world directly, but not the whole literal world itself. Remember, the Bible is Middle-East/Jerusalem/Israel centric.

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan.

While teaching myself the rudiments of koine Greek, I have understood that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Knowing some Greek does not mean one is experienced enough to realise the difficulties of the language. Please can you check the following for me in light of Mitchell’s claims about the wrath of God only being ORGE? Thank you.

Definitions.
Wrath ORGE- Strongs G3709 1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
3) anger, wrath, indignation
4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates
AV — wrath 31, anger 3, vengeance 1, indignation 1

Wrath THYMOS Strongs G2380 1) passion, angry, heat, anger forthwith boiling up and soon subsiding again
2) glow, ardour, the wine of passion, inflaming wine (which either drives the drinker mad or kills him with its strength)
AV — wrath 15, fierceness 2, indignation 1

The following Scriptures are ORGE.
God urges the believer not to give place to ORGE. A ruler executes ORGE. The word ORGE is also of man so seemingly not only attributed to God?

Romans 12:19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to ORGE; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.

Romans 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute ORGE on him who practices evil.

Romans 13:5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of ORGE but also for conscience' sake.

1Tim2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without ORGE and doubting;

James 1:19 So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to ORGE;

James 1:20 for the ORGE OF MAN does not produce the righteousness of God.

The proceeding Scriptures state the wrath of God is THYMOS.

Rev.14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the THYMOS OF GOD, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation (ORGE). He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:9 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the THYMOS OF GOD.

Revelation15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the THYMOS OF GOD is complete.

Revelation 15:7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the THYMOS OF GODwho lives forever and ever.

Revelation 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the THYMOS OF GOD on the earth."


Inexplicably to me, here THYMOS returns to ORGE in these verses?

Revelation 16:19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His ORGE

Revelation19:15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and ORGE of Almighty God..

Thanks Nathan
E.I.

Anonymous said...

Regarding 2 Thess, I’ve got files on enough different views and arguments to keep me busy for years and none of them are decisive IMO. If people are going to focus on the term elect in Mat 24 then I believe Rom 11:5, 7, 28 (eklogē) should be given a hearing as well. I think Matt 24:20 is interesting. Who’s the subject of that warning I wonder?

Even a newbie like me knows there are pretribbers who do see rapture language in Matt 24, and some who don’t. Not really sure what all the excitement about paralambano is. Yep it’s used in John 14, but it’s also found in Matt 12:45, 18:16 etc which are not rapture passages. As for vv 40-41, I’ve seen compelling arguments for both rapture and judgment there.

Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

rg

Nathan Jones said...

E.I., I would fall into that category as well as only knowing enough Greek to be dangerous, and that with a lot of book help. I'll pass your email question on to someone more knowledgeable than I in that area and get back to you.

I used to have a Greek professor who attended our Bible study who read from his Greek Bible. Talk about intimidating! (Which is why some people pull out the Greek in their arguments, huh?)

Alan Kurschner said...

I speak as a prewrather here, so I don't speak for Mitchell's post-trib view of God's wrath. And as someone who holds a Masters degree in Greek, studied Greek at Harvard Divinity, and am in a Ph.D. program in Greek, I would like to comment on Mitchell's statements.

First prewrath affirms that the trumpets and bowls are both God's wrath that will unfold sequentially.

Thumos and orge are synonyms for God's wrath _where the context allows for it._ Further, just because the word orge (or for that matter thumos) is not found in a particular passage in Revelation does not mean that passage is not talking about God's wrath.

This is called the “word-concept” fallacy, an assumption that studying a word (or phrase) means having studied the entire biblical concept. This is also called the "concordance" method of interpretation. One should not simply open up a concordance and finger down the page looking for usages of a single word and stop there. It can be a beginning point for study, but word (or concept) studies should not end there. There is an important difference between studying a biblical concept and studying the range of meanings of a single word. For example, if we want to learn what the Bible teaches about the concept of love, it would be a mistake to restrict our study to only the single word agapē because there are many terms that describe different aspects of love. We need to take Scripture in a normal, natural, contextual sense and recognize synonyms and other similar phrases that describe a concept rather than collapsing an entire concept into one word. Moisés Silva gives this additional example: “A very important passage on the subject of hypocrisy is Isaiah 1:10–15, but the student suckled at the concordance would never find [the word “hypocrisy”]; instead, he would come to an unrefined understanding of the topic.” Biblical Words and Their Meaning: An Introduction to Lexical Semantics, rev. ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994), 27. See also D.A. Carson, “Word-Study Fallacies,” in Exegetical Fallacies, 2nd ed.(Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1996), 27–64.

Alan Kurschner said...

Rg said:

Not really sure what all the excitement about paralambano is. Yep it’s used in John 14, but it’s also found in Matt 12:45, 18:16 etc which are not rapture passages.

You missed the point. No one said it was a technical term for the rapture. The point was that pretribbers say that Jesus did not use rapture language in Matthew 24. But this is in error since there is precedent for Jesus using paralambano for the rapture in John 14. In other words, no one can consistently say that Jesus could not have used rapture language in Matthew 24.

Nathan Jones said...

Thanks for the Greek insight, Alan! I've wondered if we weren't too stuck on "orge" or not.

Don't you all just love it that God's left us hanging?!? True insight into God's sense of humor (and desire for us to study).

Alan Kurschner said...

Nathan,

You're welcome. There is an irony in studying Greek, especially Greek semantics: the more I study it, the more I see how limited it can be in light of other aspects that inform meaning such as syntax, context, literary, and theological. This is not to minimize word studies at all, but the exegetical task should be holistic and not reduced to a concordance.

Mitchell said...

Hi, here is the difference between "orge" and "thymos":

We should first be aware that some incorrectly assume that these two words have essentially the same meaning, however if that were the case then why did the Holy Spirit inspire the writers of the New Testament to use them both, and at times why were they both used in the same sentence? Though they will have similar meanings they must, therefore, be qualitatively distinct.

Here are some examples of where they are both used in the same verse:

1. Col 3:8 - "But now ye also put off all these; anger (orge), wrath (thymos), malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth"

Rev 14:10, "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath (thymos) of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation (orge); and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"

Rev 16:19 - And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness (thymos) of his wrath (orge)."

thymos - sudden passionate anger; anger boiling up and subsiding again

orge - deliberate anger; indignation; hostile vengeance

As was mentioned in an earlier post, those upon whom the bowls of "thymos" are being poured are still given the opportunity to repent, but they refuse. Why is this "thymos" called the "bowls" of wrath? Look at it this way (and this may be one reason why John describes them as "vials" or "bowls") -- as each bowl is being poured, the "thymos" subsides as it is nearly completed. However, because of their refusal to repent and their continual rejection of God, their continual persecution of the saints, their murders and idolatry, another "bowl" is poured, and another, and another... but they still refuse to repent. Once the bowls are nearly completely they will soon find themselves under the "orge" of God where His vengeance allows no provision for repentance.

Every time in Scripture we read that we as believers are not appointed to wrath, or will be delivered from wrath, it is always the "orge" of God, and it is only found in a post-trib context each time we see it in Revelation (Day of the Lord/Lake of Fire). In this "orge" the anger will not subside, it will not abate. The punishment will be continual for it is not a punishment to invoke correction (like thymos). Unlike "thymos", when the "orge" of God comes it is then too late.

I hope this helps to clear it up a bit.

Expected Imminently said...

Alan
Great post! You said what I had read to be true about Greek, but unable to express it.

Off topic slightly, can I trouble you for your opinion about the view that claims the BLOOD of Jesus is only a metonym or metaphor for DEATH.

Frankly it makes no sense to me at all but I lack the skill to judge it correctly.
Thank you.
E.I.

Mitchell said...

Wow, a few posts were made since I starting writing my last response.

I am aware of Alan's view of "orge" and "thymos" (remember that long debate we had!), but I do not agree with his "word-concept" explanation, as you can see from my previous post. The word meanings are similar, but qualitatively different, and are different for a reason because they each convey s specific intended meaning. I studied Greek at Master's College and Seminary, and though "orge" and "thymos" are synonyms for "wrath", they are not perfect synonyms for each other, as I have explained. Both the pre-wrath and pre-trib positions are dependent upon them both being interchangeable, when in the context of this discussion they are not.

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan
In your position my lips would have stuck to my teeth and be unable to pronounce the letters b m p w. A Greek professor - oh crumbs! (make that oh cruns)

I look forward to the reply, and yes I agree totally, Greek is used to intimidate all opposition.

By the by. I surprised myself today when I came across Dr.Reagans book 'The Master Plan' on my bookshelf. I had forgotten I had read it, and as I have pencil marks all over it means it was good and I was taking it all in.

I am off to bed now to read the
13th chapter 'The Wrath of God' again. Thanks again.
E.I.

Alan Kurschner said...

In linguistics the term "synonym" does not mean that two words are exactly alike in all instances. It means they overlap in meaning.

No one would claim that orge and thumos have the exact same meaning every time they are used. In fact most instances they have their own shade of meaning.

The most authoritative Greek lexicon is BDAG. It list two basic meanings for orge:

1. state of relatively strong displeasure, w. focus on the emotional aspect, anger.

2. strong indignation directed at wrongdoing, w. focus on retribution, wrath.

And they list two basic meanings for thumos:

1. intense expression of the inner self, freq. expressed as strong desire, passion, passionate longing

2. a state of intense displeasure, anger, wrath, rage, indignation

As you can see these two terms do not have the exact same meaning. However, you can see there is overlap with #1 orge and #2 thumos.

Mitchell, you will have to refresh my memory. Are you claiming that the trumpets are not God's wrath against the ungodly?

If so, then (1) how do you explain that the sixth seal (6:16) uses orge to announce it? Further, (2) in the fifth seal the martyred saints are crying out to God asking him when he will avenge their death. And then in the opening of the 7th seal in Revelation 8:1-4 their prayers begin to be answered. Finally, (3) just the awful description of the trumpets demonstrates that this is unmistakably God's wrath against the ungodly.

Alan Kurschner said...

E.I.

I understand the blood as a metonym for Christ's death. If he only had to shed blood to atone for our sins, then he could have just been cut and bleed. But it was his death that was required. Does that make sense?

Mitchell said...

Alan asks, "Mitchell, you will have to refresh my memory. Are you claiming that the trumpets are not God's wrath against the ungodly?" If so, then (1) how do you explain that the sixth seal (6:16) uses orge to announce it?

The trumpets are definitely God's wrath upon the ungodly. I view the trumpets and bowls however to be separate descriptions of the same events (thymos). They are cause (trumpets) and effect (bowls). I also do not view the trumpets/bowls to be consecutive to the seals per se, but rather as much more concurrent. When the 3rd of 4th seal opens, the 1st trumpet will sound.

By the time the 6th Seal is opened it will be time for the 7th and last trump to sound, so I see the gathering of the elect happening by the end of the 6th Seal and the opening of the 7th Seal. In my view, the 7th Seal, the 7th Trumpet and the 7th Bowl all happen right around the same time. The rapture happens instantaneously just as the 7th and last trump begins to sound (read here). While the 7th Trumpet is being blown the 7th Seal is opened and there is silence in heaven for about half an hour, and I believe this is what ushers in the Day of the Lord.

I'll show you one of the reasons why I believe this. Let's look at the post-trib events that Jesus gives and compare this to the 6th and 7th Seals. We will see some amazing parallels:

First:

Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”

This corresponds with:

Revelation 6:12-13, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”

Second:

Matthew 24:30, “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

This corresponds with:

Revelation 6:15-17, “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath (orge) of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath (orge) is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Third:

Matthew 24:30, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This corresponds with:

Revelation 7:1-14, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God … Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads … And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed … After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb … These are they which came out of great tribulation

Incredible parallels here.

Mitchell said...

Alan asks, "(2) in the fifth seal the martyred saints are crying out to God asking him when he will avenge their death."

Yes, and it will be soon, because the rapture is about to take place at the 7th trump, and then the "orge" of God -- His vengeance -- is about to be inflicted upon all those who persecuted and murdered the saints that refused to repent during the "thymos".

Alan states, "And then in the opening of the 7th seal in Revelation 8:1-4 their prayers begin to be answered."

I see that their prayers are being answered with the "orge" wrath that is about to come with the opening of the 7th Seal.

Let’s keep in mind that although the text is inspired, the chapter/verse divisions are not. They were added by men. Understanding this, I view a continuity from the Sixth Seal in Revelation 6:12 through to the opening of the Seventh Seal in 8:1. From Rev 8:2 I see a shift in focus to the trumpets, but these are not related to the opening of the Seventh Seal. (In essence, I see Rev 8:1 as “Rev 7:18″).

This is very consistent with the Semitic style of Revelation. The seals are described first and give a general overview of tribulation from beginning to end. Then, the trumpets are described which speak about the punishment that God caused to chasten the wicked into repentance. Later, the bowls recapitulate the "thymos" and effectively “cap” the judgment of each trumpet, that is to say, the bowls are the completion of the wrath and is the end-result effect of the “trumpet” causation. They still refused to repent when the "thymos" was completed, thus the "orge" of God follows.

Alan says, "Finally, (3) just the awful description of the trumpets demonstrates that this is unmistakably God's wrath against the ungodly."

Absolutely. Isn't it amazing however that they still refuse to repent? No wonder the "orge" then comes.

Alan Kurschner said...

"The trumpets are definitely God's wrath upon the ungodly. I view the trumpets and bowls however to be separate descriptions of the same events (thymos). They are cause (trumpets) and effect (bowls). I also do not view the trumpets/bowls to be consecutive to the seals per se, but rather as much more concurrent. When the 3rd of 4th seal opens, the 1st trumpet will sound.

This is where I believe post-tribulationism falls apart, taking a recapitulation/concurrent view of the trumpet and bowls. I see this as a gross unatural reading to force the events into a post-trib schema.

So much so that I devote an entire appendix in my book to this:

Appendix 1. Seals, Trumpets, Bowls—Recapitulation or Progression?

Once my book is out, I would be interested to have you respond to the argumentation in that appendix.

Thanks,
Alan

Mitchell said...

Alan says, "This is where I believe post-tribulationism falls apart, taking a recapitulation / concurrent view of the trumpet and bowls. I see this as a gross unatural reading to force the events into a post-trib schema."

In my view it is the most logical flow and is consistent with its Semitic styling. Here are a couple of reasons why I believe that the trumpets (cause) announce the judgments, and the bowls (effect) revisit the pronouncements and focus on the overall end result of the trumpets. The similarities are striking:

1. First Trumpet (Pronouncement - Cause): hail and fire mingled with blood; third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

1. First Bowl (Effect: end result of the first trumpet): there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshiped his image.

Comment: hail and fire raining from the sky will definitely cause grievous sores upon anyone caught on the receiving end.

2. Second Trumpet (Pronouncement - Cause): a great mountain burning with fire cast INTO THE SEA: and the third part of the sea became BLOOD; third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

2. Second Bowl (Effect: end result): the SEA; and it BECAME AS THE BLOOD of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea

3. Third Trumpet (Pronouncement - Cause): there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the RIVERS, and upon the FOUNTAINS OF WATERS; Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men DIED of the waters, because they were made bitter.

3. Third Bowl (Effect: end result): the RIVERS AND FOUNTAINS OF WATERS became blood.

Comment: Perhaps a comet or asteroid breaks up and falls upon 1/3 of the rivers and fresh waters, but ends up killing virtually everything in these waters for some reason.

- Continued

Mitchell said...

4. Fourth Trumpet (Pronouncement - Cause): third part of the was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Comment: massive sun spots or other solar phenomenon? Earth’s rotation supernaturally halted?

4. Fourth Bowl (Effect: end result): upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire; men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Comment: Seems like 1/3 part of the sun being smitten could not “scorch men with fire and great heat”, however we now know that during increased sunspot activity there is also a marked increased in solar activity. A massive solar flare, if timed right, could have devastating effects upon those on the receiving end.

Brother Tommie’s understanding may be even better. Regarding the 4th trumpet and bowl, he writes, “This seems to be contradictory, but if we stop and think for a minute, we will see that this is very possible. The trumpets show this as a curse of darkness, and the vials of wrath as a curse of daylight. This seems to be impossible, but if the earth was to stop moving, or rotating, it is very possible.

In the Old Testament, God caused this to happen in two different instances. And, this is what occurs. God stops the earth for a period of time. The sun will be shining over the Antichrist and his people. The night is what cools the day, but without any darkness in that part of the world, it will become increasingly hot!

In the western part of the world, it will be dark for as long as this period lasts. This will cause this part of the world to become extremely cool; causing clouds that blot out the stars and the moon. Part of the earth will experience twilight, neither day nor night, for this period of time. This event will scare people out of their wits! The newscasters will be going wild trying to explain why the earth isn’t turning; weather forecasting will be chaotic.”

http://www.americaisraelprophecy.com/seven_seals_diagram.html)

5. Fifth Trumpet (Pronouncement - Cause): a ’star’ from heaven to earth is given key of the bottomless pit, opened; smoke arises, the SUN and the AIR DARKENED BY SMOKE; out of smoke "locusts" upon earth, given power TO HURT ONLY THOSE WHICH HAVE NOT THE SEAL OF GOD in their foreheads; tormented 5 months: men seek death and do not find it.

5. Fifth Bowl (Effect: end result): Upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was FULL OF DARKNESS; and they gnawed their tongues for PAIN and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Comment: Whatever or whoever these “locusts” are, the pain they cause torments the wicked for five full months.

-- Continued

Mitchell said...

6. Sixth Trumpet (Pronouncement - Cause): Four angels bound in the EUPHRATES RIVER loosed - were prepared for an hour, a day, a month, a year, for to slay the third part of men; the number of the ARMY of the horsemen 200,000,000: three horsemen - by these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, smoke, brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Some closing thoughts:

1. The bowls correlate perfectly both in sequence and intention with the trumpets that are given a few chapters earlier, so there is nothing textually that tells me that these events are happening twice and in the exact same order.

2. After the description of the Sixth Bowl, Rev 16:15 has Jesus saying, “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” In my view, this is solid evidence telling us that Jesus has not yet come at that point and raptured the elect, but that rather He is about to soon return once the last trump begins to sound — which would just so happen to be next in sequence if the trumpets and bowls are concurrent.

3. The next verse, Rev 16:16, then tells us that the nations are to be gathered for Armageddon. This also indicates to me that Jesus has not yet returned and gathered the elect because we are told by Jesus in the Gospel of Luke that this is something that we would still be here to witness before His coming:

Luke 21:20-28 says, “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near… there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations … the powers of the heavens will be shaken … Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

4. Rev 15:1 describes the seven angels holding the "seven last plagues". The Greek for the word “last” in Rev 15:1 is “eschatos”, and it is where we get the word “eschaton” and “eschatology.” The English translation of “last” may seem to suggest that there were others preceding these seven, and that these are additional plagues following the trumpet judgments, but in my opinion it need not be understood that way. I believe that a better understanding of this verse refers to the plagues as being THE SEVEN plagues of the eschaton, not plagues that happen in addition to the trumpet judgments. The trumpets/bowls are the last seven. When understood in this sense, it harmonizes perfectly with the view that the trumpets/bowls are concurrent, that is to say, the same events viewed through a different lens.

-- Continued

Mitchell said...

5. Some believe that in the 7 seals, Death and Hades are given power over 1/4 of the earth, while in the 7 trumpets the judgments cover 1/3, and then in the 7 bowls the judgments presumably cover ALL the earth, suggesting a linear progression of birth pains. However, in Revelation 16’s description of the bowls, the Greek for “earth” in each instance is “ge”.

Though it can refer to the world, it can very easily mean “a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region”. It can be very easily demonstrated that the beast’s empire -- being a 10-nation coalition -- means that his authority is limited in any global sense, thus there is no reason to believe that this is referring to the whole literal earth. If that meaning were intended, I believe that John would have been inspired to use the word “kosmos” instead, but he does not. Rather, I see the causes (trumpets) being more “limited” if you will, but the end result is devastating (bowls).

6. Some point to the earthquake that occurs in Rev 16:18 that is mentioned as the most severe of all the earthquakes in the Revelation, indicating that the others preceding it were less intense and therefore suggesting a linear sequence of increasing birth pains. However, I view this earthquake as the same earthquake mentioned after the 6th seal because of what happens to the mountains and islands. John just gives more detail in chapter 16.

Notice the following similarities:

Rev 6:12a,14b “I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake … and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Rev 16:18,20 “...there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great… And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

If every mountain and island are removed from its place per Rev 6:14, then what islands and mountains are being removed in Rev 16? In my view, these are separate descriptions of the same events.

Ok, that's enough posts. I better stop here before I invoke the "thymos" of Nathan.

Alan says, "Once my book is out, I would be interested to have you respond to the argumentation in that appendix."

I would love to brother. :)

Mitchell said...

Looks like I forgot one of the posts for the 6th Bowl, and 7th Trumpet and Bowl, so here it is:

6. Sixth Bowl (Effect: end result): upon the great river EUPHRATES; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared; he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue ARMAGEDDON.

7. Seventh Trumpet (Pronouncement - Cause): the mystery of God is FINISHED when the last trumpet begins to sound (the rapture is instantaneous - cf. 1 Cor 15:51-52); there were great voices in heaven, saying, The KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD HAVE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and HE SHALL REIGN for ever and ever.

7. Seventh Bowl (Effect: end result): there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.

Regarding the trumpets and bowls, as we know the number 7 is a Biblical number that is symbolic of “completion” all throughout Scripture. So with the trumpets/bowls, I do not see fourteen separate events, but rather only seven. Therefore, once the last trump begins to sound the rapture is instantaneous, and then the Divine Wrath of God (the specific wrath that we as Christians are not appointed to – ”ogre”) is meted out during the Day of the Lord upon the wicked who came up against Israel and persecuted the saints.

Alan Kurschner said...

Mitchell,

I have had ex-post-tribbers write me and tell me that the strained attempt to have the trumpets and bowls concurrent is why they went over to the prewrath camp.

They recognized that the Great Tribulation is cut short allowing time for the natural Day of the Lord's wrath to unfold. They never could accept the idea that the seventh seal is concurrent with the seventh bowl!

Your strained schema is required since you do not recognize that the Great Tribulation is cut short allowing for the trumpets and bowls to unfold.

"After the description of the Sixth Bowl, Rev 16:15 has Jesus saying, “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” In my view, this is solid evidence telling us that Jesus has not yet come at that point and raptured the elect, but that rather He is about to soon return once the last trump begins to sound — which would just so happen to be next in sequence if the trumpets and bowls are concurrent.

That is an editors comment! That is not intended to give you a chronology. It is punctuated there in the context of the final wrath of God because of its severity. Rev 22:20 says that Christ is coming. Does that mean that Christ has not come after all the events of Revelation? It is obviously for exhortation, not intended to give a chronology.

3. The next verse, Rev 16:16, then tells us that the nations are to be gathered for Armageddon. This also indicates to me that Jesus has not yet returned and gathered the elect because we are told by Jesus in the Gospel of Luke that this is something that we would still be here to witness before His coming:

The rapture occurs at the sixth seal. The saints come with Christ to battle already having resurrected bodies---not to receive them.

"Luke 21:20-28 says, “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near"

This is a reference to AD 70, not Armageddon.

In summary, the posttribber is forced to a concurrent schema since they have the dilemma of trying to reconcile the result of the rapture before the 7th seal and the Battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 15:1 undermines any notion of a posttrib concurrent schema. To interpret it as "the seven plagues of the eschaton" is wishful thinking. The context is clear that they are called the last because they follow and culminate after the trumpet judgments. Further, the last statement corroborates this when it says, "the wrath of God is _finished_."

This makes no sense whatsoever to have them as "last" and "finished" if there were not previous judgments (i.e. the trumpets).

There is a progression in Revelation: The scroll must first be opened up before the trumpets are blown, then the bowls are poured out quickly afterwards as the finale of God' wrath.

Alan Kurschner said...

Mitchell,

We had this discussion over a year ago :) I'd be interested in getting your response from my appendix once the book is out.

I will be tied up the rest of the week so will not have time to respond anymore here. Thanks for the discussion.

Alan

Mitchell said...

Ok, sounds good Alan. I'll keep an eye out for your book. Take care!

Expected Imminently said...

How comforting ?

uurrgghh! That VERY vivid description of the forth coming horrors is terrifying, even if it is out of sync of the actual chronology.

Praise The Lord that our Salvation means we escape all these terrors in the PRE-Trib Rapture.

I have found the verse stating the Rapture is PRE-trib; it’s right next to the verse that say’s it’s Post, not far from the one that say’s its Prewrath!

Mitchell said...

EI says, "Praise The Lord that our Salvation means we escape all these terrors in the PRE-Trib Rapture."

Escape in a pre-trib rapture? Where do we find that in Scripture? You're probably alluding to Luke 21:36, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Let's take a moment to examine what the text is saying in its full context.

Luke 21:25-28, "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars... At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Since some approach this text assuming a pre-trib rapture they will often point to "begin" and say it only means the first few signs mentioned earlier in the chapter, but Jesus says "When these things begin to take place" AFTER describing the cosmic signs that we are told happens immediately after the tribulation in Matt 24:29-31. Why did Jesus not say "when these things begin to take place" before mentioning those post-trib events?

A couple of verses later, in Luke 21:31, Jesus says "when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand", and again these things INCLUDE the cosmic signs and the coming of the Son of Man immediately after the tribulation mentioned a few verses earlier.

Now let's look at Luke 21:34-36, "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the WATCH, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, [referring to "that day"] and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

What day is "that day"? Jesus just gave us cosmic signs that Joel 2:31 says will happen just BEFORE the Day of the Lord, but immediately AFTER the tribulation according to Christ's own words in Matt 24:29.

Joel 2:31, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."

Matthew 24:29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"

Therefore, "that day" that Jesus is referring to in Luke 21:34 is the Day of the Lord. It is the day of Christ's judgment, of His Divine Wrath - the "orge" that we as believers are not appointed to suffer (1 Thess 5:9). The Greek for "escape" in Luke 21:36 is "ekpheugō" (G1628) and is used elsewhere to refer to escaping the judgment of God (Romans 2:3).

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, the Apostle Paul even parallels this perfectly when telling us about the gathering of the elect (rapture):

1 Thess 5:2,4,6 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us WATCH and be sober."

So how do we escape? Paul ties in the Day of the Lord with the rapture in 1 and 2 Thess as we can see, and tells us to WATCH for that day just as Jesus does in Luke 21:36. Since we know that the Day of the Lord takes place immediately after the tribulation, the escape -- and therefore the rapture -- is post-trib as well.

Reading all of these passages of Scripture in their most plain and straight-forward meaning, everything makes so much more sense from a post-trib position.

Mitchell said...

And just briefly, look at these incredible parallels. Where do we see a pre-trib rapture?

Parallel 1:

Matthew 24:5,24 -- False Christs. The Anti-Christ is peaceful at first.

Revelation 6:2 -- The 1st Seal - White horse and rider who is given a crown.

Parallel 2:

Matthew 24:6-7 -- Wars , nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom.

Revelation 6:3-4 -- The 2nd Seal - Red horse to take peace from the earth.

Parallel 3:

Matthew 24:7 -- Famines and earthquakes.

Revelation 6:5-6 -- The 3rd Seal - Black horse bringing famine.

Parallel 4:

Matthew 24:15 -- The Anti-Christ
and the Abomination of Desolation

Revelation 6:7-8 -- The 4th Seal - Pale (Green) horse with Death and Hades. Power over 1/4 of the earth to kill by sword, famine, plague and wild beasts.

Parallel 5:

Matthew 24:9-13, 15-22 -- Great Tribulation. Many fall away from the faith.

Revelation 6:9-11 -- The 5th Seal - Saints in heaven are told that fellow servants are to be killed.

Parallel 6:

Matthew 24:29-31 -- After the tribulation -- Sun and moon are darkened. Jesus returns and the the nations mourn as the Son of Man appears with power and great glory. Angels gather the elect at the rapture. The Day of the Lord begins.

Revelation 6:12-17, Rev 7:9-17 -- The 6th Seal - The sun and moon darkened, cf Acts 2:20. People in rocks and caves hiding from the coming wrath of the Lamb because the great day of wrath (orge) has come -- The Day of the Lord and a great multitude who come out of the Great Tribulation are in heaven.

Guess what the pale/green horse of the 4th Seal may signify: Find out here.

Followed by death and hell - who does this sound like? Find out here.

Mitchell said...

After reading the two links above my previous post, prepare to have your eyebrows raised yet again with this one: Iran: Muslims Must Unite For Islam's Savior.

Quote: "The spokesman of Iran's Supreme Leader called on neighboring countries to mobilize their forces in preparation for the coming of the savior of Islam and to unite with the Islamic Republic in paving the way for his arrival, an Iranian news agency reported Sunday.

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's spokesman, Ali Saeedi, said countries like Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan and Afghanistan should gather together all their forces in order to make drastic changes to prepare for the coming of al-Mahdi al-Montazar, Arabic for 'the awaited guided one.'"

Now check out the description of the this book called "Al Mahdi and the End of Time" (1997). The writers claim to find their Islamic savior -- al Mahdi -- in the Book of Revelation. Here is a quote from this book:

Quote: "I find the Mahdi recorded in the books of the Prophets… For instance, the Book of Revelation says: 'And I saw and behold a white horse. He that sat on him… went forth conquering and to conquer... It is clear that this man is the Mahdi who will ride the white horse and judge by the Qur’an (with justice) and with whom will be men with marks of prostration (zabiba) on their foreheads.... The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and Christians; if they accept it they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed." (page 16).

Now guess who they believe their Dajjal (Antichrist) will be, who they believe they must fight against when he comes? They call their "Antichrist" the Messiah of the Jews and Christians ...

If it sounds like a duck, and if it looks like a duck, could it possibly be...a duck?

Mitchell said...

Alan says, "Revelation 15:1 undermines any notion of a posttrib concurrent schema. To interpret it as "the seven plagues of the eschaton" is wishful thinking. The context is clear that they are called the last because they follow and culminate after the trumpet judgments. Further, the last statement corroborates this when it says, "the wrath of God is _finished_.'

This makes no sense whatsoever to have them as 'last' and 'finished' if there were not previous judgments (i.e. the trumpets)"


Ok I know you wanted me to wait until your book was released, but I was just itching to comment on your last point. :)

Revelation 15:1 says, “And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.” (KJV). Other translations say:

NKJV: “in them the wrath of God is complete” (15:1)
NLT: “which would bring God’s wrath to completion” (15:1)
NIV: “because with them God’s wrath is completed.” (15:1)
ESV: “for with them the wrath of God is finished.” (15:1)
NASB: “because in them the wrath of God is finished.” (15:1)

The Greek “teleo” for “filled” means “to bring to a close; to finish; to end; to complete”. In light of the striking similarities between the trumpets/bowls, and the fact that the descriptions given for the trumpets can logically account as being the cause for the descriptions given for the bowls, there is no reason in my opinion to view them as consecutive. Otherwise, one will need to squeeze all seven bowls at the last trumpet at Armageddon. It just makes more sense to me that the bowls effectively “cap” the judgment of each trumpet, that is to say, the bowls are the completion of the wrath and are the end-result effects of the “trumpet” causations.

You know Alan, our views are more similar than not. The major sticking points are primarily in two areas: The meaning of "the days being shortened" and whether or not the trumpets/bowls are concurrent or consecutive. Am I pre-wrath? Yes, I am. But my position is also post-trib. Thus, it is post-trib/pre-wrath -- after the darkening of the sun and moon, but just before the Day of the Lord.

I'll keep an eye on your website from time to time to see when your book is ready.

Blessings!

Expected Imminently said...

Mitchell I can't help wondering if you wear your Y Fronts over your trousers? Either that or you wear your gear back to front and inside out. It would explain a lot of things for me!

Through the looking glass, freefall till you follow the white rabbit up his burrow to have tea with the mad hatter sat in a tea pot. Wot are you on bro? :) bless!

DrNofog said...

E.I. said...

"...Y Fronts over your trousers?" [DrNofog frantically trying to reboot his InterGalactic translator...]

E.I.?!?, -- "Y Fronts???", -- "Y Fronts over your trousers?!?"

Wuz that a Chuck Norris vs. Superman legend that you just ripped off... The loser had to wear his underpants on the outside...???

Over here, Chuck Norris' exploits are 'Legend', right up there with the "Quest for the Holy Grail"... so, a word of warning, be very careful how you plagiarize that stuff!

Expected Imminently said...

DrNofog
Ah Ha!
If you only knew the thought I put into that! I WOULD have said pants over tights - then I thought 'hm, they call trousers pants' -. so I thought Y Fronts MAY universally get the nod! Them's the kind wives look at in amazement and say 'Y?- you got some front wearing them things'!

Chuck Norris? I know of Chuck Missler, and Chuck Smith and Chuck me that summat or other!

Plagiarize!!! Moi! Surely ALL super heroes with a wardrobe malfunction are adept at textual strangulation with their bare hands? Its common practice down EVERY rabbit hole in the land of Nod AND Sherwood Forest to boot - now that really is summat to startle a rabbit!
EI

Mitchell said...

I have no idea what "Y Fronts" are, so you'll need to explain that one!

Expeted Imminently said...

Well there you go then Mitchell,that explains it! White rabbits and Mad Hatters don't know either, they don't wear wear them in Wonderland!
EI

Mitchell said...

And that mean... what?

Expected Imminently said...

And that means . . . trying to make sense out of nonsense, is obviously unattainable.

Taking Scripture out of the CONTEXT of the WHOLE council of God always results in a PRETEXT.
EI

Expected Imminently said...

With Bible prophecy, we are committed to the WHOLE council of God…

“Anyone who believes the Church is going through THE Tribulation hasn’t done their homework on what the Tribulation is and what it is about, it’s purposes and what the Church is all about. They are probably confused about the Church in the first place, which has different origins, different missions, and different destinies – totally different destinies. So if you understand what THE Tribulation is and what THE Church is, they are essentially, in a sense, almost mutually exclusive”. (Chuck Missler on Titus 2-3)
EI

Anonymous said...

You missed the point. No one said it was a technical term for the rapture. The point was that pretribbers say that Jesus did not use rapture language in Matthew 24. But this is in error since there is precedent for Jesus using paralambano for the rapture in John 14. In other words, no one can consistently say that Jesus could not have used rapture language in Matthew 24.

I’m fairly good at missing points. My experience, though, is that posties etc have used the technical “paralambano” argument for Matt 24 containing rapture language. However, even those pretribbers who do see rapture/paralambano language in Matt 24 can also present valid arguments for it not being in v31. The rapture concept in Joh 14 isn’t contingent to the word “paralambano”.

rg

DrNofog said...

EI said...

"I WOULD have said pants over tights - then I thought 'hm, they call trousers pants' -. so I thought Y Fronts MAY universally get the nod! Them's the kind wives look at in amazement and say 'Y?- you got some front wearing them things'!"

Mitchell said...

"I have no idea what "Y Fronts" are, so you'll need to explain that one!"

Recent sub-space communication -- Origin: Earth

Translaatiommnnmn: -Mitch**, we@r ..ur. ge@r b@xk .2.fro_t .and inside out.

EI, -- Some mercy here, please!

Mitchell was parsing... ..."looking for ??? in all the wrong places..." [song lyrics?]

I think Mitchell really did want to know [totally apart from your "theologically" astute & very pointed comparisons] -what "Y Fronts" are,...

**as do I**, since, I am, also' so ashamed to admit, [since my InterGalactic translator totally 'barfed on me'], - I still have no clue what in the "lake-O-fire" you were talking about when you tried to describe "Y pants"?!? [such a ferrin language]...

"A "jpg" is worth a 1kBytes of words"...

...Why does that fffrase have sucha strange, very familiar, "ancient" ring to it?!?

-a "clean jpg link" only, Please

You Brits have "evolved" sooooo much in *your* colourful* language, that even the EU is wary of your whiley ways!!!
[* I added the "u" again, so you could recognise* [*with an "s"] the words...]!
;D

We, on the other hand, have maintained a clearly understood, International language:

"D'oh!"

Nathan Jones said...

I was thinking "y fronts" were suspenders. Hmm, how did we get from the timing of the Rapture to talking about underwear?!?

Mitchell said...

EI says, "Taking Scripture out of the CONTEXT of the WHOLE council of God always results in a PRETEXT."

Precisely! And that begs the question, why do you adhere to a doctrine that relies on doing exactly that, not just once, but time and time again?

Demonstrating the problems with pre-tribism is so easy, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. When "pre-trib verses" are examined in their proper context or interpreted hermeneutically under the full counsel of Scripture they are shown to be supporting a post-trib rapture each and every time.

http://post-triborpre-trib.blogspot.com/

Expected Imminently said...

One thing for sure, I am in suspenders dreading Mitchell trumping me again. 8~{

Yfronts are easily accessible under pinnings for gents due to the letter Y construction emblazoned across the frontage of special no go areas.

You lot will get me shot!
EI

Expected Imminently said...

Oop thar she blows; missed that one coming in at twelve o'clock'

Cor Mitchell! stop trumping me will ya!

Trevor said...

I would encourage everyone to do an in-depth study on the Feasts of the Lord found in Leviticus 23. "These things are a shadow of the things to come...the reality, however, is found in Christ Jesus." The Feasts are the "shadow" of the what is to come. And the Spring Feasts, have already been fulfilled (Sabbath, Passover/Unleavened Bread, Pentecost). The Fall Feasts have partially been fulfilled. The next Feast in line to be fully fulfilled by Christ is the Feast of Trumpets. Do a study on the Feasts, and I think your questions about whether it is pre/mid/post will be clearly answered. And for the record, it's pre. :-)

Anonymous said...

"Demonstrating the problems with pre-tribism is so easy, it's like shooting fish in a barrel."

Same ol' same ol' at Endtimes. The fish are laughing at the blindfolded pea shooter ;-)

rg

Anonymous said...

Dessert is ready in Googleland and it is titled "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty." Yum-Yum ! Buster

Anonymous said...

Speaking of dishonesty...are you referring to the Ortiz-MacPherson dramatic discovery of a piece of writing by Maggie Macdonald alleging she believed in a pretrib rapture?

For those of you who don't know - both Mac and Ortiz photocopied a section of Maggie's well-known vision and edited it to suggest something she didn't actually say. Taken as a whole, her vision clearly has her as a postie.

That's downright dishonest and I'm sure there are some Bible verses somewhere warning about lying - right?

Anony, get off Google and do some study for yourself.

rg

Anonymous said...

Quick, we need an unbiased analysis of "Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes" which Joe Ortiz posted on his "End Times Passover" blog of Sep. 4th. Sal

Anonymous said...

Typical of anti-pretrib posts is the lack of objective substance and a failure to personally answer a challenge.

Joe Ortiz is either a careless dupe for Dave MacPherson or a very bad con-artist for featuring an edited portion of Maggie's vision and declaring it new.

http://faculty.bbc.edu/mstallard/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/ReviewMacPherson.pdf

Pathetic really.

rg