Thursday, April 22, 2010

The Gog-Magog Battle - Before the Tribulation?

Nathan JonesMP3 PDFBy Nathan Jones

We have deciphered the general timing clues given by Ezekiel and concluded that the Gog-Magog Battle has to be future.

The first clue is the use of the terms "latter years" (Ezek. 38:8) and "last days" (Ezek. 38:16). The second clue is the historical record that shows no such battle in Israel's history has fit the description. The third is that Israel is a nation once more. The fourth is that the nations that comprise the invading coalition are finally united today by their hatred of the Jews. And, the fifth clue from Ezekiel 38:11 is that Israel has to be living unsuspecting and in peace.

In an attempt to pinpoint the exact timeframe for the occurrence of Ezekiel's prophecy, the following arguments will weigh the pros and cons of different future scenarios, beginning with the time period before the 7-year Tribulation. The following two views lie heavily on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture viewpoint.

I'll seek some ideas from what I believe is the best written book on the subject — Northern Storm Rising by Dr. Ron Rhodes.

Before Both the Rapture and the Tribulation

Supporters of this view are Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins of the Left Behind series, and Joel Rosenberg who wrote the popular Ezekiel 38-39 themed book Epicenter.


1) Israel taking seven years to burn the weapons for fuel (Ezek. 39:9) matches the seven year timeframe given in Daniel 9:27 that the Tribulation will last. Since both take seven years, Gog-Magog would have to happen before the Tribulation.

2) A supernatural defeat by God would leave the Muslim world in ruins and their faith in Allah shattered. Islam would no longer be a threat that holds the Jews back from rebuilding the prophesied Third Temple which the Antichrist will later desecrate at the midpoint of the Tribulation (Dan. 9:27 and 2 Thess. 2:3-4). The Jews must build their new Temple before the half-way point, and certainly could before the Tribulation if there was no Muslim opposition.

3) God declaring Himself to the world is in character with His willingness to warn the world before impending judgment. A great multitude could come to God before the Rapture due to God revealing Himself more fully by His victory in the Gog-Magog Battle, and so more people would be included in the Rapture and avoid the wrath of the Tribulation.

4) The Jews having to flee into the desert 3.5 years into the Tribulation due to the Antichrist's abomination in the newly built Temple may cut them off from being able to burn the Gog-Magog invader's weapons (Matt. 24:15-16). If they couldn't get to the weapons to burn them in the prophesied amount of time, at least 3.5 years would be needed before the Tribulation, placing the Gog-Magog Battle well before the Tribulation begins.


1) Placing the invasion before the Rapture would contradict the first general time clue of the terms "latter years" (Ezek. 38:8) and "last days" (Ezek. 38:16). Old Testament prophets like Ezekiel used these terms to indicate a specific "time of Jacob's trouble" for Israel, which is the Tribulation.

2) Placing the invasion before the Rapture would contradict the fifth general time clue which says Israel will be living in unsuspecting peace before the attack. Unless the peace is derived from a Psalm 83 scenario where Israel has subjugated its surrounding neighbors, true peace may only come to Israel by the peace covenant made between the Antichrist and Israel (Dan. 9:27). That covenant starts the seven year countdown of the Tribulation.

3) The New Testament teaches that no prophetic event has to occur before the Rapture, called "imminency." Imminency precludes such prophetic events like the Gog-Magog Battle from happening before the Rapture.

4) The removal of the "Restrainer" allows the Antichrist to rise to power (2 Thes. 2:6-8). Because the Church is the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16), the removal by the Rapture of the Holy Spirit's work through the Church must then take place before the Antichrist can arise and create the peaceful precondition for Israel.

After the Rapture But Before the Tribulation

A popular supporter of this view is Dr. Tommy Ice of the Pre-Trib Research Center.


1) Certainly the world will be in chaos due to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which Russia and its Muslim coalition could use to seize the opportunity to attack a friendless Israel.

2) Having the Muslim nations shattered before the Tribulation gives the Antichrist an easier time of making good on a peace covenant with Israel.

3) With the more christianized nations in tatters due to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and the Islamic world in ruins from the Gog-Magog Battle, the remaining European world power could fill the vacuum in the Middle East. By making a peace treaty with Israel and easily conquering the lands of the once Middle-Eastern Muslim countries, the Roman Empire could truly be revived once more. The only remaining world powers would be East-Asian, and the Bible records their continued existence (though under the control of the Antichrist) until the end of the Tribulation (Rev. 16:12).

4) With the Muslim world in tatters, Israel would have no resistance to their rebuilding the Temple at the onset of the Tribulation.

5) The Rapture does not start the Tribulation, but rather the signing of the peace covenant between the Antichrist and Israel does (Dan. 9:27). This fact would allow a 3.5 year or more time delay between the Rapture and the Tribulation, giving Israel the full seven years to burn the weapons from the Gog-Magog Battle before being forced to flee into the desert (Matt. 24:15-16).


1) Placing the invasion before the Tribulation would contradict the first general time clue of the terms "latter years" (Ezek. 38:8) and "last days" (Ezek. 38:16). Old Testament prophets like Ezekiel used these terms to indicate the specific "time of Jacob's trouble" for Israel, which is the Tribulation.

2) The peaceful precondition of Ezekiel 38:11 in which Israel has to be living unsuspecting and in peace before the Gog-Magog Battle may depend on the peace covenant with the Antichrist. Since the Antichrist can't be revealed until the Tribulation begins, Israel would not attain the conditional requirement for the Gog-Magog invasion to occur.

In the next part of this "Impending Invasion of Israel" series we'll analyze the possibility that the Gog-Magog Battle could happen during the 7-year Tribulation.


son of thunder said...

Nathan wrote: Imminency precludes such prophetic events like the Gog-Magog Battle from happening before the Rapture.

I think a better way for this to read would be: Imminency precludes such prophetic events like the Gog-Magog Battle from having to happen before the Rapture.

I don't take one side or the other on this one. Since the Rapture is imminent, it could happen on either side of the Gog-Magog invasion. I do tend to lean towards the before option, as I think it would be a great tool for Christians to say: Look! The Bible spoke about this 2,500 years before it happened!

It could be a great witness.

Nathan Jones said...

Ouch, served! Son of Thunder, how could you?!? :)

For reasons I'll state in the last entry of this series, I strongly believe that the supernatural implications of the Gog-Magog Battle force it to be a post-Rapture event.

Fulfillment of the Gog-Magog Battle still could be a witnessing tool if folks come back and read this after we're all gone.

Laura said...

I want the rapture to be today, but, you know, I've noticed that God doesn't always arrange cosmic matters around my desires! Sigh!

Anyway, in looking critically at the arguments given, I have a problem with this one on the "con" side of theory #1:

"The New Testament teaches that no prophetic event has to occur before the Rapture, called "imminency." Imminency precludes such prophetic events like the Gog-Magog Battle from happening before the Rapture."

I don't see how "imminency" means that the rapture has to happen before Gog-Magog. I thought "imminency" meant it can occur at any time, and it's not dependent on anything else. Well, that still holds true whether the rapture happens pre- or post- Gog-Magog.

To me, this argument is illogical. But, hey, maybe I'm missing something here!

Laura said...

Hey, Nathan,

We're not trying to attack you with our comments. It's more like we're trying to weigh the evidence and see which argument is strongest.

I had a similar reaction of rejection to someone on a Bill Salus' program a few weeks ago who said something to the effect of "Why would God only have part of the bride of Christ go through the tribulation while many other believers have been spared because of death?"

Well, that doesn't hold water because you could say the same thing about the Jews--or anyone else going through the tribulation vs. those who have died before it began.

I'm a pre-tribber myself, but I still want to look at the arguments in light of logic and God's Word.

Keep up the good work. These string of articles have been fantastic!

son of thunder said...

Just trying to make it the best blog on the web, Nathan.

I am looking forward to tomorrow's post, though.

Nathan Jones said...

No attacks perceived. I'm glad I'm not doing your thinking for you. Hard enough thinking for myself.

Thunder, I can hear E.I. saying "Why you silver tongued cad!"

son of thunder said...

Silver tongued? Who're you calling silver tongued?

Anonymous said...

I am not sure as to why the term "the latter years" cannot also include some time after the Rapture and before the Tribulation. I know this term has been used to describe the Tribulation period but I don't think it prevents it from being used as a general time frame leading up to the Tribulation.

Also, seeing that the Arabs always use "American aide" as the excuse as to why Israel always beats them; If America was decisively out of the picture due to the Rapture, the Arabs would have to admit (even to themselves) that Israel's God helped them and no one else.

It may be sentiment but I hope the Rapture is before all this. Why?? because I believe these wars may take place in the middle east but their impact will be felt world wide!! Come Quickly Lord Jesus!! DianefromKY

SeanOsborne said...


Great series you have here; I've enjoyed every minute of my reading!!

There's just one minor item that I noticed, a single tansliterated word used in the NIV of Ezekiel 38:11.

That word is "unsuspecting."

I think the NIV this transliteration of the Hebrew word
"shaqat" (H8252) is likely incorrect because the NIV translators had no concept of real-world conditions. Most transliterations (KJV, NKJV, YLT, etc.) render this word as "to be quiet, be tranquil, be at peace, be quiet, rest, lie still, be undisturbed" which I believe more accurately conveys the prophetic Word of the Lord for that specific time.

Given modern geo-political circumstances, and even assuming a post-Ps.83/Is.17 time frame in that that will imply for Islam, I find it almost unthinkable that anyone in Israel would be "unsuspecting" of the Hojjatieh regime in Iran (Persia).

Instead, I think Israel will be supremely confident and have a quiet, restful, peaceful, undisturbed assurance in their own military capabilities that were manifest as the whole world watched unfold in the Nuclear-Biological-Chemical warfare which preceeds the War of Gog/Magog.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Nathan
Please excuse me, I've been thinking again. These articles are great, just pondering the alternatives to the perceived 'norm'!

Because the direct word for ‘peace’ is SHALOM, and is not to be found in Ezekiel 38. I looked into the definitions of these words to see if they could indirectly be translated as ‘peace’. Only if one’s mind is made up that is what the Bible is saying, can these words loosely be seen to indicate Israel ‘at peace’. The direct translations of these words intimate not; rather a situation as we see in Israel today. Obviously I am no expert, and am willing to be corrected, but what I see here does not warrant placing Israel ‘at peace’ with the world in order for the Gog attack. IMO.

As for the ‘latter days’ could this not refer to the ‘birth pangs’ which launched us into the very end times with the 2 World Wars? It is within these ‘birth-pang’ days of the Church Age that Israel was reborn as a nation for any of this to occur! Indeed, even ‘As it was in the days of Noah’ Israel, like the rest of us are behaving normally, eating, drinking, marrying in spite of the threat of terror hanging over us all.

G.L. - Gesenius’s Lexicon
T.W.O.T. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament by R.Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer Jr., Bruce K. Waitke.

And thou shalt say, I will go up to a land of PERAZAH G.L. the plain and open regions, country, villages the opposite of fortified cities and to those in the mountains.
Twot p734. vol II – open region, hamlet. The basis of this verb is associated with growing things ‘to sprout’. To blossom/bud. Many times it is used metaphorically to describe e.g. the ‘flourishing of God’s people (Israel)

I will go to them that are - SHAQUQAT G.L. Rested, quiet (settled).
T.W.O.T. 2453 p.953 Vol II Sometimes overlaps with the word ‘betach’ – securely, a feeling of confidence. The basic root of shaquat is ‘tranquility’. On one hand it implies the absence of war, strife or trouble, BUT on the other hand it may also imply an absence of a pressing obligation, OR again, of some disturbing element that mars a relationship with others.(e.g.U.S.A. or Muslim states?)

That dwell - BETACH G.L. - with confidence
T.W.O.T. Page 101 Vol.1.- secure, safe one of two words to express trust or reliance upon. Basic idea to do with firmness or solidarity. A sense of well being and security which results from having or someone to place confidence in. the lxx never translates betach with ‘believe in’, but ‘to hope’ in the positive sense.
(Betach has deeply significant meaning to this situation, and it is worth reading the full account in T.W.O.T. along with shaquat, it is dependant upon God’s blessing including God’s challenge to his people to rest in Him, no matter how great the threat against them from their enemies.)

Israel will ONLY be at total rest during the millennium, so if Ezekiel 38 is pre trib. then the context cannot mean, as is suggested, at peace free from threat of conflict.

All of them dwelling without a wall having neither bars or gates. (of a town i.e. like open countryside, similar to Sheba and Dedan, not young ‘lions’, but villages/ hamlets in the countryside. Just like the rest of the modern world.

hartdawg said...

sorry to jump ahead nathan, but look at other clues here, Gods attention is primarily focused on isreal A POST RAPTURE SENERIO he is dealing with the nations in judgement A POST RAPTURE SENERIO the endtime revival is AFTER THE RAPTURE (the church is asleep before the rapture)

hartdawg said...

that being said i flat out reject it occuring anythime DURING the tribulation.

Expected Imminently said...

Oo Oo Hartdawg, I nearly had a turn. For a minute there I thought you had turned Postie! :)

son of thunder said...

hartdawg turn "postie"? The only way that'll happen is if the Antichrist signs his deal with Israel and we're still here!

Russ said...

I suspect the Gog-Magog war will take place concurrent with the Rapture; millions/billions of people disappearing in the context of a war where the winner can claim to be "the christ..." and gain Israel's trust to sign the treaties required... That would make sense to me.


Laura said...

Just curious, Hartdawg: Why do you "flat out reject" Gog-Magog happening after the tribulation begins? (By the way, I have no problem with your rejection of this idea--reject away. I'm just curious as to why you believe the way you do.) And thanks in advance for any response you might give.

Nathan Jones said...

Without getting into the Hebrew (which isn't my speciality), I agree with you E.I. With Satan's never-ending hatred of Israel and the never ceasing tide of anti-Semitism, there is no way this side of the Second Coming that Israel will ever be safe. They might naively think so should they conquer most of the Middle East in a Psalm 83 scenario, but I agree with the translation that they feel securely placed back in the land behind their exceedingly great army.

Ezekiel, used to walls around every fortified city in his time, would be greatly surprised to see no walls around the cities in Israel today. That wall running between Israel and the Palestinians, well, it's up to debate if that one really counts.

E.I., looking at my Dilbert calendar, what's St. George's Day? He the guy with the wagon?

hartdawg said...

WRONG THUNDER! WRONG! even if anti-christ signs a deal with isreal and we`re still here i`ll STILL look for the coming of christ any time. perhaps before the 2nd seal or 3rd seal... laura, the reason(s) i reject this battle occuring after the start of the tribulation is 1)7yrs to burn fuel 2)anti christ would be forced to defend isreal 3)no mention of a temple 4)no world government. there are others but that should suffice

hartdawg said...

so thunder, was i emphatic enough for you?:) it would take more than the start of the tribulation for me to go postie. it would take the 2nd coming itself.

DrNofog said...

I am inclined to agree with thunder on the imminency issue. If we say the prophecy of Gog-Magog prevents the imminency of the rapture, then the same exact thing could be said of the Ps83-Isa17 prophecies. The facts of the issue are that we're just making our best educated 'guesses' on which side of the rapture is the Ps83-Isa17 prophecies... and since we're just 'guessing' and don't know 'for sure', then imminency is still 'imminent'.

One of the problem scenarios that seems to arise with putting Ps83-Isa17 after the rapture is there is too much time without the 'Christian' witness on the earth before Israel begins to return in faith to YHVH after witnessing His great salvation at Gog-Magog. There are too many things that I don't see that can happen in rapid succession
...the world is stunned by her massive and swift victory, 'negotiations would begin on whether Israel should ever be allowed to have nukz or move unilaterally again,
...and would probably drag on for years as Israel would probably be very reluctant to give up her 'trump-card' to anyone except the yet-to-be-revealed world leader, 'ol A/C hissself,
...Israel would require some time to 'settle-in', secure and manage her new-found, Abrahamic Covenant territory and begin to build her wealth,

I just 'see' too many years between between Ps83 and Gog-Magog and I'm sure many here can throw a few more monkey-wenches into the works.
[Ha ha -typo!]
And then, can the interim believers in Christ, before the Trib actually begins with the A/C's treaty, be considered "Tribulation Saints"?!?

This, of course, is still educated 'guesses', speculation, and God can still take this all down a totally unforeseen path so I still see imminency as imminent.

Did I leave anyone behind?

DrNofog said...

Sorry EI, I'm going to have to go with SeanOsborne on this one...

We know 'true peace' is only with the Prince of Peace in the Mil., so we have to regard it as 'relative' peace and as Sean points out: "...supremely confident and have a ['relatively'] quiet, restful, peaceful, undisturbed assurance in their own military capabilities..." given the circumstances, rather than "unsuspecting" which would be out of character for Israel.

Sean, don't get upset but I must point out, [for the great unwashed masses out there...], you said..."...just one minor item that I noticed, a single transliterated word used in the NIV..." should be the word "translated".

When you converted the Hebrew characters into English characters so that readers could make the 'approximate' sound of a foreign word like "shaqat", that is a 'transliteration' also referred to as a transcription, as opposed to a 'translation' where, further down, you did give the 'meaning' of "shaqat"... "...render this word as "to be quiet, be tranquil, be at peace, be quiet, rest, lie still, be undisturbed" which I believe more accurately conveys the prophetic Word..."

A couple of classic untranslated transliterations in the Bible are "Jesus" and "baptism"... Jesus is the KJV old-English 'approximate' letter-character for letter-character "transliteration" of the Greek "Iasous", pronounced approximately as Yah-shoos.. I mentioned the KJV old-English because their 'j' had a soft 'y' sound, not the hard 'j' we have today, so Yesus would have had a more correct sound to the Greek Yah-shoos. You might wonder how the Greek "ia" comes out with a 'yah' sound... Try the 'ia' at the end of California. [and don't say "Cali-forn-I-A" like the red-necks do...] ;-D

"Iasous" is NOT a Greek word so it has NO translation, NO meaning. Iasous is, itself, a 'transliteration' of the Hebrew word Yeshua, which does a 'meaning' in Hebrew, when it is 'Translated'. Something like Yah-saves, or Yah-is-Savior, "Yah" being the short form of YaHoVaH.

"Baptize" is a flat-out UN-TRANSLATED Greek word that means to: "dunk, dip, immerse, overwhelm, or to submerge" [as it is used in Classical Greek of sunken vessels]. At the time of the KJV, the common meaning of "baptism" had been corrupted by decades & centuries of Catholic "sprinkling" and calling it a baptism [rantizo, to sprinkle, is found only in Hebrews] so the KJV translators deliberately did not give the real "meaning" for fear of the King & the people finding out that their "baptisms" were all invalid & then the cry: "off with their heads"!!!

Sorry for droning on so long...

DrNofog said...

PS. I was trying for Mitchell's crown, but man, that's some serious work, and I'm pooped already...

DrNofog said...

I like what Russ said...

I had been pondering what kind of great lie and strong delusion that takes place in the Trib...
The False Prophet calls down fire from heaven later on, perhaps to steal some of Gog's thunder [pun not necessarily intended, thunder, but I'll have to go with it anyway] after the Gog-Magog defeat,... Kinda like Pharaoh's magicians in the 1st 3 plagues... "Yeah, see! We can do that too, so it really wasn't a Jewish YHVH God." [But many in Israel ain't buying into it...]

DrNofog said...

Oops, typo... Brain not sync'ing with fingers.
Should be "God's thunder".

son of thunder said...

hartdawg, I think that's the first time you've ever caps locked me. :(

I see your point, though. :)

son of thunder said...

DrNoFog, just to inform you, not all of us rednecks say Cali-forn-I-A. Some of us say Calliforinya ;)

Rodney said...

Nathan, the belief that of the Gog/Magog battle taking place prior to the Rapture and the Tribulation, does no way take away from the termed "Latter Days". The Apostasy we are presently witnessing is also known to take place within this same context as found in 1 Timothy 4:1 and II Timothy 3:1. Therefore knowing we are in this timeframe at the moment and not within the time of the Day of the Lord, which is the time of vengeance and wrath upon the unrepentant and wicked inhabitants of this earth, the possibility remains.

Expected Imminently said...

Sorry for the delay; I have been away for a few days in Wales!

The Patron Saint of Wales is David.
The Patron Saint of Scotland is Andrew.
The Patron Saint of Ireland is Patrick.
The Patron Saint of England is George. (Same as Europe's Georgia)

We each have our own flag; by combining them we have the Union Jack of the United Kingdom. Well it’s not quite as simple as that, but that’s the general idea.

England is a white flag with a red cross. St. George fought a nasty dragon saving a maiden. The Red Rose of the House of Lancaster became ‘England’s Rose’ or the ‘Tudor Rose’, after they won the Battle of the Roses in 1455 to 1487 against the House of York of the White Rose. So on St. Georges day the red rose is worn.

The ‘guy with the wagon’? You may mean Britannia? Long, short, Britannia was the collective name given to our islands by the Romans. Britannia is the personification of Great Britain, she is wearing a helmet while holding a trident and a large round shield. She is on our money.

OR you may mean Boudicca (some say Boadicea) who was a Celtic Queen who led her tribe the Iceni to fight the Romans after the death of her husband. Her two daughters also fought by her side, and although the Romans eventually triumphed, she certainly gave them some ‘stick’. She died about AD 60, ten years before the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem. (She is often depicted riding a horse drawn chariot with knives jutting out of the wheel hubs). Queen Victoria was depicted as Boudicca, as the symbol of cultural Britain.

Writing this, I hadn’t considered how matriarchal we are, what with the above and the Queen Elizabeth I (with the heart of a man), Queen Victoria, our present very intelligent Queen Elizabeth II and good old Margaret Thatcher our first woman Prime Minister apt to give idiots a good ‘hand-bagging’.

Otherwise I cannot think of who the ‘guy with the wagon’ may be?

son of thunder said...

OK, EI, you losted me.

DrNofog said...

Yeah thunder, this was apparently an 'intercepted' follow-up "communique" between Nathan and "EI" [whomever she might really be] on her "Maxwell Smart" shoe-phone!

DrNofog said...

At first blush, it just reads as nonsensical "Brit" stuff, but at the 'encoded''s wreaking serious CPU time on all of our DeCrypting computers.

She's obviously up to something!

son of thunder said...

I'm tellin' ya. She's MI:6.

"The name's I. EI. Orange juice. Shaken not stirred."

SeanOsborne said...

I'm with Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins in that I believe Ezekiel 38/39 occurs prior to both the Harpazo and Daniel's 70th Week.

"Latter years" is irrelevation in pointing to a specific timeframe - we are living in the latter years and 'ast days right now, today, tomorrow and thereafter until the Harpazo occurs.

Also, among the PRO pre-Harpazo/pre-Trib eschatological indicators not itemized above are the following items:

1. There is no hint of the Antichrist or the False Prophet

2. There is no hint of a global empire or global financial system or world religion. There are nations acting or standing by witness of their own accord.

3. There is no hint of the 3rd Temple or of Temple worship... which we all know will exist during Daniel's 70th Week.

These three are the additional eschatological indications of why I believe that Ezekiel 38/39, at least most of it, occurs pre-Harpazo/Rapture and pre-Daniel's 70th Week.

There is additionally a fourth indicator in my view which I've noted many times before.

Sometime in this whole Gog/Magog episode God will have poured out His Spirit upon all Israel. This grammatical past tense aspect of Ezekiel 39:29 is very important and a final key indicator that the Bride of Christ has just been Harpazoed. This view is very much within the mainstream belief of a pre-Tribulation Harpazo/Rapture.

Nathan Jones said...

Well, thank you, EI, for explaining St. George's Day! I didn't know all that about the GB flag and that Britannia was a woman. My brother's the one who did all the research into our Welsh heritage.

"St. George and the Wagon" - a Gary Larson Far Side cartoon reference (couldn't find a picture online).

Expected Imminently said...

Indeed to goodness Jonesy. I suppose I should have guessed by your name you are a Taffy - ah, now then, there you go, there's lovely. Like singing do you my ffrind?

Expected Imminently said...

Gadzooks, I’ve been rumbled, its them blinkin pigeons in Trafalgar Square twitting to our mams chickens again I’ll be bound. Nathan, sniff yer daffodil and wave yer leek if ya got the message safe boyo!

Nathan Jones said...

Is Professor 'enry 'iggins in te 'ouse? I needs to learn to talk more genteel like, so I's can underst'nd dear EI. Doun't be so hard on a pore Taffy (?) like's I's is.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Sean
Because the Rapture is imminent, meaning no prophecy HAS to happen before, but COULD occur before the Church is taken (as with the rebirth of Israel) it is possible that the Church MAY witness Ez.38. but equally may not, but I think it is most likely to occur BEFORE the 70th Week.
I know Arnold Fruchtenbaum takes this view.

If God pours out His Spirit upon Israel during Ezek.38, pre-trib; then why are so many Jews deceived by the Anti-Christ? I see this outpouring happening when the millennium begins imo.

Expected Imminently said...

Praps I could edekate yer Jonesy?

The symbols of Wales is a Daffodil and a Leek (like a big spring onion) They wears em on St Davids Day (March 1st I think?) They have also adopted a girt great red dragon, and we wicked English likes t remind em that St George dun im in. They got a bootiful ‘sing-song’ English accent but they speak covertly in Welsh at first sight of the English.

Me, an im indoors, have a lush static caravan we escape to on the Gower Peninsula. We went to celebrate a dear Welsh ffrind’s 80th birthday at the weekend in beautiful Oxwich Bay. There was about twenty English, but we was outnumbered by Taffy’s who were well oiled and friendly like! Now there is a river in Wales called ‘the Taff’, so that’s why Welshies are called Taffy see?

There’s Tom Jones, Katherine Zeta Jones and Bonny Tyler, they all comes from yer, in Swansea like!

PS Eliza Doolittle was a Cockney from London (different accent mate). :D

DrNofog said...

Hmmmm, as 'fate' would have it our very own Nathan Jones is violating his new blog rule, attempting to speak in tongues without an interpreter...

DrNofog said...

Nathan seems to be hung up on the "latter days - last days" as being strictly post-rapture & the 70th week even though we are in the majority and have pointed out fairly clearly it ain't so. We should call on him to repent of his error and turn the heat up on him a little bit, -- my personal favorite is burning at the stake...

son of thunder said...

Fer cryin' out loud! It's startin' ter soun' like a blinkin' Tolkein novel in 'ere!

son of thunder said...

At the very least, Douglas Adams.

DrNofog said...

Hang in there 'son', Yer infected too! I'm searchin' fer the cure!
It's like 1812 again! They're everywhere!
Who in the blinkin' L is Douglas Adams?!?
Hot flashes... Oh No!... Not me too!?!

SeanOsborne said...

Hi EI,

I'm also considerate of existent time gaps within specific sections of what at first glance appears to be contiguous prophecy.

For example, since there is a well over 2,000 year gap of time within Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy in chapter 9, Daniel 2, Daniel 7, and Daniel 11 regarding the now fulfilled template of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the future Antichrist, there also could very well be a gap of time between Ezekiel 38:1-39:16 and 39:17-39:29 (the end of the war/burial of the hordes and the Triumphant Festival and Full Restoration of Israel to the whole of the land).

I also note the 3rd Temple occurs afterwareds begining in Ezekiel 40.

Also, related to Billy's question above - after any major war there is always a geo-political power vacuum and an absolute requirement to re-establish geo-political order in a given region, or the world-at-large. This occured most recently in the aftermath of WWI in the defunct League of Nations, and after WWII with the still existent United Nations. Both are a form of "covenant among many which re-establishes geo-political order. The AntiChrist's "covenant among many" will be no different in the ake of Pslam 83/Isaiah17 and Ezekiel 38/39.

Nathan Jones said...

I have an interpreter, Doc, it's E.I. Though, she says I'm speaking the wrong language. To speak Welsh I'd imagine it'd harffffve toooooo lllluuuukkkk lrggggk ffffisss.

End times vs. last days/latter years - I still have to disagree with ya, Gang. We're talking about covering different prophetic eras and Church vs. Israel subjects.

SeanOsborne said...


I'm confused here. Do you mean to say that the phrase "latter years" ("'achariyth shaneh") in Ezekiel 38:8 only applies prophetically to Daniel's 70th Week?

I don't believe it does. I believe Ezekiel 38/39 occurs prior to Daniel's 70th Week, it's pre-Trib, and yet occurs in close proximity to the Harpazo of the Church.

Expected Imminently said...

I am speachless!

You never cease to amaze me on your blog!

The only thing I really followed was that Ez.38/39 'occurs in close proximity to the Harpazo'. Again I see this as possible, as the Harpazo is imminent imo. Laura clearly understands as I do, and I am certain the Apostle Paul had an ‘imminent expectation’ of the Harpzo. However it would appear that you do not accept imminency to be valid, or at least its definition?

I THINK I agree with Nathan, or very near “covering different prophetic eras and Church vs. Israel subjects”, is about Dispensations and context. I cannot disagree or agree with him that it is ‘forced’ to be after the Rapture, again by reason of the imminency of the Rapture; maybe yes, maybe no?

In one sense the 'latter years' has been since the birth of the Church. Yet how do we know we are NOW close to Christ's return, it’s been 60 plus years since the rebirth of Israel, what is it that makes many of us think the time is near?

My answer to this (rightly or wrongly) is that we have entered the vital period of the tell tale 'birth-pangs' of the two WW. This would seem to be evidence that God's prophetic clock is about to finish with the Church and re-introduce Israel ending this present Dispensation with, maybe, the Gog/Magog war being the first ‘push’?

Expected Imminently said...

Have you ever watched the film 'Zulu'? Although its a British film, its very dramatic and powerful based on truth.

Toward the end of Part 4 on You Tube, a Welsh soldier starts to sing the Welsh patriotic song 'Men of Harlech' putting silly words to it. (It's not a musical). Listen to his 'sing song' accent, and compare it to a Cockney accent.

If you can bear to watch, you will hear this song later when the soldiers are facing the Zulu's attack. Actually it is worth watching just for the Zulu war chant.

I will be very surprised if all you alpha males don't enjoy it!


SeanOsborne said...


I absolutely believe in the imminency of the Harpazo. Jesus has benn preparing a place for us since His Ascension to the Father.

My confusion and question is with respect to applying a specific time frame to the term "latter years."

We know that Daniel's 70th Week is a finite period of time of 7 literal years.

If defining "latter years" applies to only those 7 years then that would mean Ezekiel 38/39 occurs during Daniel's 70th Week.

I don't believe this is correct. I believe we have been living in the "latter years" since Israel's re-birth in 1948, and that the term "latter years" is a generalized reference to this particular period of time, pre-millenniun. As Jesus said, it refers to "this generation" which Psalm 90:10 tells us is normally 70 years or 80 years with strength.

DrNofog said...


I concur, but why not kick it back earlier to Pentecost?

If both Peter speaking, and the book of Acts is the sure record and workings of the HS, then by his quoting of Joel as speaking of, and time-framing Pentecost as "the last days", then the subsequent epistles and Revelation, speaking of both the prophecies and the imminency of Christ's return were held together as almost one.

Since the key was not fully given until our time, many early, pre-1948 speculators could correctly hold an imminent rapture, then Israel's rapid regathering and a rapid unfolding of Gog-Magog [Ps83-Is17 unrevealed at the time] and the revealing of the AC. None of this would have affected the imminency as far as the believers of past years were concerned!

Of course, in perfect 20/20 hindsight, we now know that there were just too many things that had to be accomplished in order to set the stage. But since we are still only speculating at best guess, it always still leaves the rapture as imminent from Pentecost up to today and our current understanding of the past should not taint our speculations of the future!

As a side note that just occurred to me... since the vast majority of believer know very little about the rapture, let alone events that belong on either side of the rapture, it seems to be only us eggheads that are worried about which way to split the hairs on the "latter days, last day" issue...

Expected Imminently said...

Got that!

I hadn't noticed if Nathan claims only the 7 years as 'latter days'. If so, then I must say that I have seen the 'latter years' as the entire Church age with lots of Non signs presented that Jesus said must happen, 'but the end is not yet'.

But the BEGINNING of sorrows (birth pangs) starts the very end of ‘the latter years’ with Jesus Words 'Nation shall rise against nation'. I think the word for 'nation' is 'ethnos' (ethnic wars) which is certainly what the two WW were all about with every continent in hostilities. So to me that is when the contractions actually began in earnest, the only previous 'pang' being the destruction of the Temple.

2000 years seems like a big gap, but even real birth can often be like that with a 'false alarm' and no more pangs being felt for quite some time.

The rebirth of Israel, and events preceding involving Zionism, when several prophecies were fulfilled; was certainly a major contraction that told the world ‘this is definitely not a false alarm’ and the ‘mother’ is kept in maternity for serious observation. The ‘baby’ does not seem to have been in a hurry to be born, but the birth pangs are certainly coming closer together.

Generation of 70 to 80 years?
Do you mean Matt.24:34? ‘genea’

IF so, it does not read as a length of time, rather as ‘contemporaries’. The context concerns those Jews in Jerusalem who will see the signs of the abomination of desolation in the middle of the 7 years. That peer group of Jews around to see the A/c enter the Temple, and be among the Jews flight from Jerusalem to Petra – (maybe)? Within that group of Jews, some may die, but others will survive and witness the 2nd Coming. Similar to the ‘generation’ of Jews who left Egypt under Moses but would not enter the promised land.

Looking at the Hebrew in Psalm 90:10 it refers to ‘The days ‘yown’, of our years ‘shaneh’.
Yown – is a long or short length of time.
Shaneh – a year (a time). Together stressing that Psalm 90:10refers to the years of a persons life-span.

There is a Hebrew word ‘dowr’, which can mean a ‘length of time’or even ‘contemporaries’, but as dowr is not used, but instead ‘yown of our shaneh’ this Psalm does not seem to mean the same as Matt.24:34 understanding of a generation.

Although Psalm 90 refers to a life-span as 70-80 years, there are other passages I have been unable to find, that give 30 even 100 years as a generation.
God bless

son of thunder said...

Who's Douglas Adams? DrNoFog, have you no culture? He was the man who wrote one of the greatest science fiction epics of all time: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (not the movie, it reeked) series of novels.

Your homework assignment is to find a library and read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

son of thunder said...

Oh, the Vogonity of it all.

Expected Imminently said...

Son of thunder

Sno good, I gotta ask!

Please excuse my ignorance, but does ‘Vogonity’, perchance, have something to do with the alien race of Vogon in ‘Hitchhikers Guide’?
EI :)

Montana said...

Ezekiel 39 verse 7 says that "I will make my holy name known in the midst of my people, Israel and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more."

How than would it be possible for the Israel to sign a treaty with the anti-christ?

Verse 7 is clear as a bell! Gog-Magog happens after the covenent is signed! If it were not so, how can you explain what God declares in verse 7 " will not let them pollute my holy name any more."

The last thing Israel is going to do at this point is run out and make a deal with the devil right after God made his name known once again to them. Can't and won't happen. It's the point of the whole battle!

Nathan Jones said...

The Jews won't have realized who the Antichrist really is until 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation (Dan. 9:26-27). They also won't accept Jesus as Savior until the end when He returns, so they continue to exist in an unsaved state during the Tribulation.

God not letting His name be profaned has nothing to do with the spiritual state of Israel or the Antichrist. It's for proving yet again He fulfills His promises for His glory.

Montana said...

After reading my posting again I feel I came off way too arrogant which was not my intention and I apologize for it. Even though I spend a lot of time on the internet this is one of the first times I have ever blogged so I am new to this.
I agree that the Jews will not know that they are signing the covenant with the antichrist and it’s not until the middle of the tribulation that they find out who he truly is. My opinion is that once God shows himself to the Jews in the awesome way that he does during the Gog-Magog invasion, they would not sign the covenant with the antichrist shortly after that.
I look at it this way; God demonstrates his awesome power during this invasion to get the Jews to turn back to him and once again except him as God. The battle of Armageddon gets the Jews to except Jesus Christ as their savior and realize that it’s through him alone that God will receive them.
So Gog-Magog starts to invade and God demonstrates one of his most spectacular performances of power up to this point in history to the Jews and the nations. God states in verse 7: “I will not let them pollute my holy name any more and the nations shall know that I am the Lord.” I just have a very difficult time working it out in my mind that if the Gog-Magog invasion were to occur before the covenant was signed, that the signing wouldn’t in some way be “polluting” his holy name by being deceived by the Antichrist. After studying the scriptures I feel that from this point forward the Jews will start down the correct path to God and then to Christ and that they will no longer be able to be deceived by Satan or anyone.
As far as the timing of the 7 years to burn the weapons, I believe the Gog-Magog invasion takes place almost immediately after the covenant is signed and that the Antichrist does little or nothing to stop it. I do believe they will continue to burn the weapons during their flight in the second half of the tribulation and that the fuel would actually be very convenient power source to take on the run. Mathew chapter 24 states “Let him who is on the house-top not come down.” This indicates an extreme urgency to leave once you see the abomination of desolation take place but they will still take some provisions with them and this “fuel” would be very mobile.
Just a few of my thoughts, thanks so much for replying!

Montana said...

I have a few more thoughts I would like to share. Could the great shaking of the land spoke of in Ezekiel chapter 38 be the same great earthquake spoken of with the Sixth seal in Revelations? Right after the Sixth seal the 144,000 male Jews are sealed. I believe that when God defends Israel during the Gog-Magog invasion, these 144,000 come to him because of what he did and then at that point are sealed. I think that it’s possible that Gog-Magog is part of the Seals being opened in Revelations chapter 6. That would be right after the Antichrist comes to power and signs the covenant with the Jews.
I just wanted to explain a little bit further on where I am coming from. Thanks!

Nathan Jones said...

Good question, Montana! For an answer on whether the Gog-Magog earthquake happens during the second half of the Tribulation, check out the next part of this series - The Gog-Magog Battle - During the Tribulation?

Stephen said...

And yet, the weapons could also be
transported and burned during
the 3 1/2 years in the desert.
is that correct ??

i think so.

12 REV sign by astronomy software
indicates 23 SEP 2017 minus 1260
comes to 11 APR 2014.

12 REV is mid trib of course.

time running quickly.

check you tube search...

23 SEP 17 mid trib sign.

Stephen >>>>>>>>>>

Andrew Martin said...

There was someone I knew of who would say this...

"The war of Gog and Magog has been underway for almost 100 years. This is the occupation government of Israel. Since Christ, Jews are no more Gods people than Muslims, and in actual fact, he sees here that the arabs have been wronged. Also, Jews are hardly semetic, in the main they are Eastern Europeans of the house of Togarma, decending from the Khazarian kingdom. God eventually lead them against a "land recovering from war" last century. At that time Gog was in control of Russia. Other nations poured in also such as the Ethiopians & Babylonians (i.e people converted by the Jews in the diaspora years).

So while you look about for Gog, he stands right in front of you, absolutely delighted to have your general support in his war."

Certainly a unique perspective for readers of this site, wouldn't you say?