Monday, June 28, 2010

Revelation Chapters 21-22 Discussion

The most frequently requested Christ in Prophecy television show episodes on Revelation have been pulled out of the vault and re-released!

Over the six episodes, Dr. David Reagan and guests Don McGee of Crown and Sickle Ministries and Dennis Pollock of Spirit of Grace Ministries go chapter by chapter through the book of Revelation, explaining that the book of Revelation isn't difficult to understand, rather it is difficult to believe. But, if you will believe it for its plain sense meaning, you will understand it. For anyone who's been born again and has the Holy Spirit residing within them, Revelation can become very clear.

We'll continue on in our journey through the great book of Revelation by getting our teachers back together to discuss Chapters 21-22, particularly concerning the New Earth. Feel free to watch, listen, or read along by clicking one of the icons below.

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Revelation: Discussion of Chapters 21-22

[Read Chapters 21-22 in the NASB version via Biblegateway.]

McGee & Pollock


The New Earth

Dr. Reagan: Let's get into our discussion of Chapters 21 and 22 by taking a look at the New Earth that's described in Chapter 21. What would you have to say to those who spiritualize this particular concept by saying that the New Earth is just a code word for Heaven?

Dennis Pollock: I think I'd start with a two word question, "Says who?" How do people come up with that?

This comes from the attitude that says we cannot possibly take these things to be literal. A lot of people have a problem with the physical aspects of eternity. A lot of people have a problem with, for example, the golden streets in the New Jerusalem or the gates made out of pearl. They say, "That can't be! Really, pearly gates and transparent gold?" My response is: "Why not? Why can it not be?"

God is a God of beauty. He has created a beautiful eternity for us and it is a physical eternity. One of the proofs of that is Jesus in His resurrected body. He went out of His way to show His disciples that he is a physical person, not just a spirit. He said touch me, grab me. He said a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone. So, if Jesus is physical, there's no reason to think eternity won't be physical. The Bible calls Him "the first fruits." He's the prototype of the resurrection. We're going to be just as physical. Now, if we're physical beings — spirit, soul and body — we're going to need a physical place to inhabit and the New Jerusalem will be that. The New Earth as well will be physical places as well as spiritual.

Don McGee: If you think back to when you were a kid, remember the caricatures and cartoons and things that you saw of Heaven? What were they? Well, they were based upon some guy's opinion of what Heaven might be like. You see this cloud out there and you see somebody sitting on this cloud playing a harp with wings sticking out of their shoulders. That's based upon a wrong concept of what Heaven is. And, it was taken into areas where education was offered and people would view this and look at it and read Bible stories and this is the mindset that people developed. When you say "Heaven," a picture forms in people's minds and it's based upon those caricatures.

Dr. Reagan: Very much like the concept that most people have of Hell, that people are in big boiling caldrons and Satan and all of his demons are poking them with pitchforks. In reality, Satan and his demons are the ones who are going to be tormented there because that place was created for them, though they're going to take a lot of people with them. But, they're not going to be in charge of it, that's for sure.

It's amazing how these ideas get into our mind. You know, Dennis, concerning Heaven, I think that probably the invasion of eastern religions into the United States and the Western Hemisphere in recent years has served to reinforce this idea that there's not going to be anything tangible about eternity, that it's just going to be spirits floating around becoming one with the great spirit of the universe and all. That's so much more ethereal and spiritual than the idea of a city with gold streets and bodies and all that sort. Don't you think that eastern religions had an impact?

Dennis Pollock: Yes, I do. It's a shame, because you know what I find? I find that when I go out and hold prophecy conferences and I teach what it's really going to be like and the physical dimensions and what the New Jerusalem is and the New Earth, I find Christians get very excited because suddenly it becomes real to them. If they think it's just a lot of ethereal stuff and playing harps and running around clouds, it's so unreal, it's so mystical. It's hard to get excited about that. So, it's exciting to realize we have a very tangible future. It's going to be very physical, very real, as well as spiritual. Just as Jesus was physical, yet He could go through walls and He could appear and disappear. So, it's going to be both.

Don McGee: I think we need to emphasize this one more time. If you look at the people who are doing the teaching in churches today, you will see why people believe what they believe, because the people who are actually doing the teaching really don't have an understanding of what this means. And, if they don't understand, how can we expect people who view us who read books and publications, how can we expect them to understand?

Dr. Reagan: That goes back to the problem of seminaries, not only in America but around the world, where there as been a major rejection of Bible prophecy. I've had many people tell me that they'd go all the way through a seminary course on Isaiah, for example, and never once consider its prophetic implications. It was just reading Isaiah and talking about who Isaiah was and that sort of thing, but not having anything to do with the prophetic implications. It's just not taught.

Dennis Pollock: What a disservice to the people of God.

Dr. Reagan: That's right! One thing that's always been intriguing to me is the fact that the Bible tells us a lot about the Millennial Reign of Jesus. For example, the whole book of Isaiah's about it from beginning to end, and there's a lot in the Bible about what nature will be like, society will be like, the spiritual atmosphere, and so forth. But, it tells us almost nothing about the eternal state. It tells us that we'll be in glorified bodies, in a New Jerusalem, on a New Earth, and it tells us two things beyond that in that we will see God's face and we will serve. Maybe that's so exciting and so great we don't need to be told anything else.

What do you see is the significance of those two promises in particular, that we'll see God's face and we'll serve Him?

Don McGee: To see His face means that we're going to be in His presence.

Dr. Reagan: Intimate fellowship.

Don McGee: That's right. That's the greatest thing that I've drawn out of this. We're going to actually be in the presence of God. Now, my Dad's been with the Lord for a number of years now, and I long to see him and to be in his presence. I have memories of him and I have pictures and I see things that he had written years ago, but those cannot take the place of actually being in his presence again. It's the same thing with God, we're going to be where He is.


The Ultimate Goal of Heaven

Dennis Pollock: You know, Don, speaking of that reminded me of something that I sometimes hear that I think is really sad. Sometimes you hear about an older person who has lost their spouse and the surviving spouse will say, "I just want to go be in Heaven so I can be with my loved one again." Well, that's understandable, but believe me, that's not the ultimate goal of Heaven to just rejoin a loved one, although that's going to be great.

The ultimate goal is to be with God and be with Christ and to see Him again. He's the star of the show in Heaven. When you think about the beauty that's in this world like the mountains, the trees, streams, and all the things that are so beautiful and lovely, those are all simply pale reflections of the beauty and the glory that is found in God and in Christ, and we are going to see Him face to face. It shows we're going to be changed, because there's no way you could do that in our present state. But, we are going to be so admiring His beauty and His glory that it's going to take a long time just to kind of catch our breath at that point.

Don McGee: If we think back, God hasn't been in the presence of man since the Garden of Eden. It's been a long time since humanity has had the experience of being in the very presence of God.


What We'll Do in Heaven

Don McGee: We're going to be able to serve Him there. The idea of serving God in His presence is not the idea of toil, it's the idea of work, and work is not bad work. It's good. What was in the Garden was work, but the problem after the Garden with the curse was that work became toil.

We're going to be in His presence and we're going to serve Him. We're going to have obligations and responsibilities and things that we're going to do. They're going to just help us to grow spiritually with us learning more and more about God every day while we're in His presence. We're going to actually sit at His feet and learn.

Dr. Reagan: That gets me excited! When I was growing up in the church, I was basically told I was going to spend eternity floating around on a cloud playing a harp, and I couldn't get excited about that. I mean, there was nothing about that, and that made me cling to this world. But, when you begin to read the tremendous promises that God has about the future, you understand why Paul said that, "The sufferings of this present time are not even worthy to be compared to the glory that is yet to be revealed to us." Or, when he said, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, nor has the mind of man conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him." But, the next verse says, "He has revealed those things to us through His spirit."


In the next part on this series on Revelation, our teachers will try to solve a great biblical mystery from Revelation 21.


Resource

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29 comments:

Anonymous said...

Opening myself up for negativity (or even attack?) I offer the following comment:

I hope that future article series aren't going to continue to merely consist of transcripts of Lamb & Lion videos.

I hope I'm not out of line (I hope not and apologize in advance if so) but that's my honest opinion.

Billy said...

I accidentally posted as anonymous. I made the previous comment.

Now, if the transcipt is for the benefit of hearing impared then of course I got it wrong.

Nathan Jones said...

Sorry you're bored, Billy. But, we've gotten a ton of emails thanking us for turning the series into an online Bible study of Revelation.

You're going to hate me, Billy, for the next two weeks as you know what's coming up. ;) When we have a message laid on our hearts, though, we have to get it out in all our venues.

Billy, you'll probably love our Christ in Prophecy Facebook group. Ton's of dynamic discussion that'll supplement all your widespread L&L readings. Most of the gang here are also there.

hartdawg said...

well, i cant access facebook from my phone:( if i could i`d be there with all my insights.

hartdawg said...

one thing i`d love to see here tho is reagans or your take on the bp oilspill and the possible ramifications. there`s alot of different opinions and possible senerios laid out.

Nathan Jones said...

Hartdawg, I'd say it's no coincidence that America sells out Israel for oil, then we hemmorage oil - and it begins on Israel's birthday. I'd agree with Carl Gallup in this YouTube video.

Don't know if these geologists are just showcasing or not, but one came out reporting that the Gulf shelf could collapse from the quick release in oil pressure, resulting in an implosion and subsequent tsunami that would wipe out Florida and 100 miles into the coastline. Another geologist says methane is now venting from the sea floor which could superheat the waters.

Now's a good time for the US to completely invest in Israeli oil/gas and begin drilling in ND and AK and say "bye, bye" to Iranian and Saudi oil.

Billy said...

Nathan,

My honesty (I feel safe in being honest here which means a lot) admits yes, I'm bored but only because...

I've own these videos and know the content (okay, I admit that's selfish).

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY...

I miss YOUR personal postings, Nathan, on various subjects. I enjoy your point of view, your writing style, etc. and your posts are educational, fascinating, thought provoking, biblically sound...etc.

Now would someone who hates you says such things :)

I promise to be good from now on and keep my yawns to myself!

hartdawg said...

hmm...although i tend to avoid sensational type senerios i think i agree on this one. is the "mystery" that`s referred to in tomorrows entry the kings bringing their glory into the city(new jerusalem)? i think i`m right on the answer.

Nathan Jones said...

Your encouraging words are most appreciated, Billy, as is your friendship with Lamb & Lion Ministries!

That anyone would be interested in my opinion surprises me (I'm not even sure my wife listens to me... she disagrees with the oil spill being God's judgment, btw).

Since we're all candid with each other, maybe you can help me. For every event that comes out, 50 prophecy experts write identical articles coming to the same conclusion. People ask me when am I going to write a book, but then I see piles upon piles of books at conferences - all covering the same topics.

So as to not sound like a redundant voice in a mega-choir, it has lately seemed to me that the best use of my ministry time here on earth would be direct Bible teaching. Your thoughts?

hartdawg said...

i dont know about billy, but personally with verse by verse prophecy teaching,i`d kinda like to dig real deep as opposed to an overview. i`d also like to see an intense study on matt 24&25 luke 21 and mark 13. however, i realize that could take months of planning.

hartdawg said...

one more thing, as for the same topic,with some of the current events (flotilla, oil spill, earthquakes...)i think it is important to cover or rehash them. only the significant ones.

Billy said...

Nathan,

This is just my view (but since you asked for it)...

Re: abundance of books/articles. I was going to make suggestions on that but I quickly visited the Lamb & Lion book & multimedia section and you're right - it's been done every which way already.

So I'd have to agree with your thought about Bible teaching. I especially think you'd be excellent in a small group setting. I say that because if I remember (I think) you did something at a conference and it didn't meet your expectations.

But based on how you've managed to interest a core group of people to the point of following your posts regularly and offering comments, I think you would excel in a Bible class/study/discussion group. I know I've learned so much not just from you but everyone else here since you created this site.

I know I would love to participate!

Don't know if that helps you at all but thanks for asking in any case.

DrNofog said...

Speaking of Glorified Bodies, after I got saved and found out that we come back to earth in our immortal bodies, instead of floating around in heaven, I've always wondered if we get to "experiment" with things... pet projects and stuff that we never had 'time' to pursue here.

As somewhat of a risk-taker, pushing the envelope, I've always had this vision of building a race car [from the latest Hot Rod mag., of course], and since physical things have physical limitations, in my vision I accidentally exceed the traction limitations in a tight turn, slam head-on into the barricade, pancaking the car and I sail through the car, and the barricade and go skipping across the field on my tush like a flat stone across water [like in the cartoons], picking myself up, and thinking "I need to tweak that design a little more", as I dust myself off...

Do you think God has a sense of humor about letting us do stuff like that?

Anonymous said...

I'm somewhat of a risk taker too, Doc Nofog. I changed my breakfast cereal recently.

rg

Anonymous said...

Nathan, Just want to say that the books that are published are almost old news by the time we get them... events are happening so fast. Keeping up with daily news and how it relates to the scriptures, the unlocking of the words in Daniel for example is much more of interest to me. I do believe that the protecting hand of the Lord is being lifted from America. It has to or He would have lied and we know God cannot lie. He said He would curse those that curse them and when the President of the United States snubs and turns his back on Israel, I think we should duck for cover!

Keep up the personal evaluations of news, love the discussions on how they relate to the Word.

I don't comment all the time, but you guys just know I am reading your words daily!

C in Salem

DrNofog said...

LOL, rg!
That can be risky to make the healthy choice.

Read the ingredients carefully, make sure there's a proper mix of pebbles and grit so yer gizzard stays in good health...
;-D

Anonymous said...

A bit of grit helps keep the system clean ;-)

rg

Laura said...

DrNoFog,

I'm an avid kayak fisherwoman, and I've often wondered if in my glorified body, I could swim with the fish rather than skimming along on top of them.

I'm sure God has a sense of humor--after all, He created it, didn't He? The question is: Will we WANT to do these silly things in a glorified body? Since they're part of our personality and not sinful (unless you consider being wasteful a sin in your case), I feel certain they will be allowed. But that's just my opinion!

Laura said...

Nathan,

Regarding these remastered studies: What I miss the most is the opportunity to discuss current world events, and as a previous poster noted, those change so frequently that this blog is really the best place to discuss them.

Nathan Jones said...

I appreciate your all's input into what content you'd like to see here. A past poll with the same question left nebulous results.

While I'm perfectly comfortable preaching in front of large groups, I do enjoy the small group setting. We have such a good group here, and I'm very appreciative of you all!!!

With countless stars, star systems, galaxies and so forth, I'm hoping we have eternity to explore. No need for a spaceship in our glorified bodies. Maybe our "rulership" will extend to administration not just over nations from New Jerusalem's Earth HQ, but over whole solar systems... or even galaxies! Maybe we'll be terraformers, using the millennia of study to create some things ourselves?

With God, the possibilities are endless!

Dennis said...

Hi Nathan,

I feel as a rookie I shouldn't give my thought on a study, I really just enjoy and am blessed by this entire ministry. But I would gain a lot from a deeper study, a verse by verse topical, with relevant news, and mabe a dash of conspiracy like the new world order that news media use to laugh at, but don't laugh at it no more! and how these things should affect the lifes of Christians in the here and now, as we prepair for the here after, Prechers like to preach wealth, health Jesus make you happy, but 8 to 9 of every 10 new converts fall away from faith within a year, and mush sooner. So today's Gospel message is missing something. Come to Jesus because he loves you don't cut it. Sorry for such a long post. But my God i'm sick of satan, and his gospel he's mingled with the true Word of God. And Angry at those who look into a mirrior and say what a good person in the Lord you are as a soul just died in sin and entered hell fire. I would like any study you do that would arm us to fight the good fight of faith my brother!

in Christ, Dennis JR.
MARANATHA

Dennis said...

p.s

I saw that video as well and I agree too. People, speaking of those in church seem to think that God is a God of love and nothing else. My parents smaked my butt, didn't like it, but had to because they loved me. I needed correction. God does as well. His word is full of his judgements both in his Holy anger, and always in his Holy love. I tried to post it in my little www.bambam71blogspot.com It was neat to see him stand up to media as well.

hartdawg said...

dennis, you`re very smart and insightful for a "rookie" your idea of indepht verse by verse plus current events or "to mix it up" is exactly what i`d like to see too.

hartdawg said...

also you are right on the money with what preachers are preaching.

Expected Imminently said...

A few years ago a then Christian doctor wanted me to daily look in a mirror and tell myself how good I am. I had no intention of complying, but I had a go, then looked at myself a while longer and said 'You liar'!

Laura likes Kyaking and fishing! There ya go, its not up my alley but if that’s what thrills ya, go for it! BUT what about the fishes you catch, do you think they will mind? :)

I too have tried to think of all the things I could do in my glorified body I have never done. The thing is; when we see Jesus we shall be like Him, knows all things! So DrNofog you should know exactly what course of action to take to cool yer bum. :D

Eternity sounds a bit boring knowing everything and not needing to enquire, BUT I am convinced 'things' are going to be far more thrilling than our present minds can possible begin to imagine. :)
MARANATHA!

Dennis said...

Thanks hartdawg, very incouraging. I think since we will have the mind of Christ every one of our sences untarnished by sin, the way we see, the things we'll hear, how things will feel to the touch we can't understand. being able to hear colors as such. The worship of a condecent flower gives to God....I can't wait. I could only imagine. and finaly, willingly bowing down to my Lord Jesus the Christ. Looking at the face of God and just being able to touch joy itself but Holy Ghost personified. Oh Lord save the lost, but come quickly my savior!!!

MARANATHA

Laura said...

I never said anything about catching the fish after I'm glorified; my desire is to swim with them as opposed to skimming over them. As for catching them, I don't see a need, since we won't have to eat!

God is first and foremost LOVE, and every other attribute of His must be viewed through the love lens; otherwise, we will have an even more distorted view of God than we already do.

I, for one, have tried the "fear motivation" and the "study God's Word to show thyself approved" motivation. My conclusion: Both are dead-end streets that lead to utter failure and despair.

Thanks, but I'll stick with being a responder to God's love just as He designed me to be: "We love God because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

And as for studying God's Word, that's fine, but let's not lose sight of our purpose--to know a person--Jesus Christ.

Recall that the religious leaders were diligent about studying the scriptures, and here's what Jesus said to them: "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about ME; and you are unwilling to come to ME so that you may have life."

Expected Imminently said...

Laura
I didn't suppose you would want to eat the fish you may catch in your eternal body. My hubby and sons are avid fisherfolk who always carefully put the fish back they catch after admiring them. Well, perhaps not all, they have enjoyed the odd Mackerel, Trout or Sea Bass. My sons, as scuba divers, also love swimming with the fishes. I have a 'fish mad' family - I'm the odd one out!

--

I may have misunderstood you, but I think the following worth saying anyway.

The Word of God is alive.
Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart”.

Know The Word, and you know Jesus who is The Word come in the flesh.

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

The Holy Spirit is our teacher who delights to reveal The Word to us.

John 14:36 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you”.

Hearing or reading The Word with the guidance of The Holy Spirit is the ONLY way to know the person of Jesus.

John 14:33 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:
John 14:24 “…: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

The religious leaders were exactly that, ‘religious'. They knew the letter of the law not the Spirit of the law. They rejected Jesus as their Messiah so they did not have the indwelling of The Holy Spirit to teach them. Unlike Paul, who was once like them as a religious zealot, was now born again and knowing God’s Word in the Spirit and not just the letter. This is also true of the Apostles and us.

2 Cor.3:6 “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

We aren’t all called to be teachers of The Word needing intensive Bible study; but it is for us all to be like the Bereans if we don’t want to be deceived and be tossed about by ‘every wind of doctrine”.

The ‘noble’ Bereans Acts 17:11 “…received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

My personal motivation for Bible study comes from my desire to know Jesus better today than I did yesterday. Also, as I am isolated from Christian fellowship, if I don’t study, there is no-one else to do it for me. :)

Dennis said...

the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe in the gospel, mark 1:15

the message of Jesus Christ is being lost in our churches. replacing it with a set of concerns to speak of God's love, mercy, grace, peace joy, and living our lives in happyness. pushed to the side if even present are the implications of his holiness, and judgment, and wrath. silent on sin and the wrath to come. to build and get closer to the Lord is to be a berean. we must get and stay into his holy word, and have a prayer life too. and be willing to slow down and hear what the guiding voice of the Holy Spirit says and guides. among those who describe themselves as "Christian" nearly half say satan does not exist, 1/3 believe Jesus sinned while he lived on earth, 2/5 say they don't have a responsibility to share the Christian faith, 1/4 totaly dismiss the idea that the Holy Bible is accurate in all of the priciples it teaches. and 54% say God has no moral absolutes. no absolute truth, and so many live a so called christian life as though there is no moral accountability at all. The prophecy of hell and heaven is reality! prophecy is a absolute necessaty in our walk, churches. God's commands to us know, I ain't gonna call him wrong friends.
MARANATHA