Wednesday, June 30, 2010

Revelation Chapters 21-22 Discussion Continued 2

The most frequently requested Christ in Prophecy television show episodes on Revelation have been pulled out of the vault and re-released!

Over the six episodes, Dr. David Reagan and guests Don McGee of Crown and Sickle Ministries and Dennis Pollock of Spirit of Grace Ministries go chapter by chapter through the book of Revelation, explaining that the book of Revelation isn't difficult to understand, rather it is difficult to believe. But, if you will believe it for its plain sense meaning, you will understand it. For anyone who's been born again and has the Holy Spirit residing within them, Revelation can become very clear.

We'll end our great journey through the Book of Revelation with our teachers leaving us with great hope in the very last promise Jesus gave in Revelation 22. Feel free to watch, listen, or read along by clicking one of the icons below.

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Revelation: Discussion of Chapters 21-22

[Read Chapters 21-22 in the NASB version via Biblegateway.]

McGee & Pollock


Jesus' Promise

Dr. Reagan: Jesus says two times in Revelation 22, "I am coming quickly." What in the world did He mean by that? It's been 2,000 years!

Don McGee: He meant "how" not "when."

Dennis Pollock: Another word is "suddenly" as in "coming suddenly." A lot of times when we were kids we couldn't wait for Christmas to come and it seemed to drag so slow and take so long, and then suddenly — suddenly! — it was here and it was gone. Jesus saying "I'm coming suddenly" meant very quickly.

Dr. Reagan: Yes, in fact, in one passage it even talks about like lightening across the sky. It's going to be "BANG!" just like that. Certainly He is coming quickly, and I think He is coming soon. I think He's coming very soon.

We talked about the signs of the times, the Jews are back in the land, they're back in their city, the whole world is coming together against them over the issue of Jerusalem. The Bible says that when all those things come together and that the European Union rises from the dead, Jesus will be at the very gates of Heaven. And, let me tell you, when you know that, you know the Rapture is right around the corner!


The Overcomers

Dr. Reagan: Revelation 21 and 22 contain a lot of glorious promises such as eternal life in a beautiful New Jerusalem on a New Earth in the presence of our Creator and our Savior. Revelation 21:7 says, "All these promises will be inherited by those who are overcomers." Don, give us a definition of an Overcomer.

Don McGee: An Overcomer is a person who has overcome the penalty of sin by placing his or her faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. A good definition of an Overcomer is to be found in 1 John 5:1-5 where it says that, "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. And whatever is born of God overcomes the world." The passage then concludes with a summary question, "And who is the one who overcomes the world?" The answer John gives is — he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Dr. Reagan: Dennis, tell us specifically what must a person do to become an Overcomer?

Dennis Pollock: Glad to. I have some good news and some bad news. Let's go with the bad news first. You have a mighty army of enemies arrayed against you. This wicked world, the demons that flit through the air, the Devil himself, and your own sinful flesh are all working together to keep you from God and from inheriting His promises. The Devil's great desire is to drag you down to the same Hell that is his own destiny. That's the bad news.

Now, for the good news, there is a God in Heaven who loves you with an everlasting love and He's provided a way for you to escape — God's provision is His Son Jesus Christ. He died on the cross as your substitute. He took all the wrath, all the judgment, all the agony that you and I deserve. God says that if you will trust in what Christ did on the cross, and believe that He was raised from the dead and receive Him as your Savior, every sin you've ever committed will be blotted out and you will receive eternal life as a free gift. You'll find a place reserved for you in the New Jerusalem. Your name will be found in the Lamb's Book of Life and you will enjoy fellowship with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit forever and ever and ever.

Take hold of that provision today. Receive Jesus as your Savior before the judgments from the book of Revelation soon begin.


Resource

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14 comments:

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan and rg
This is out of sync , but as I spent hours checking the Greek for ‘FIRST (protos) re. ‘the first resurrection’, and writing this up, I didn’t want to waste my work? I went cross-eyed reading my Thayer’s, but I am glad to say it was well worth it and my new spec’s will be ready shortly.
8~}

Protos - Strongs # 4413.

1) first in time or place - a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank – a) influence, honour, b) chief, c) principal
3) first, at the first

Thayer’s supports Strong’s interpretation but was very heavy going for me to read. Any corrections for my understanding will be appreciated.

Earlier on in the Revelation series, rg mentioned that Posties claim the word ‘First’ (protos) is interpreted to mean the ‘first of two’ concerning ‘the first resurrection’..
Well it is true; there it is in my Thayer’s – however it is mentioned as only one of three possibilities.

A) Firstly, there is doing something ‘first of all’ such as ‘First of all I opened the door’.
Scripture example. “Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he FIRST binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house”. (FIRST OF ALL)

B) Secondly there are examples described as the ‘first in a list, or type of something’ such as ‘the first sheep (of the flock) jumped over the fence’.
Scripture example. Mark 16:2 “Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen”. (FIRST OF A TYPE)

C) Thirdly, there is the ‘first of two’ example such as ‘I put on my first shoe’ (of a pair).
Scripture example. Matthew 21:28 “But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard”. (FIRST OF TWO).

(I truthfully found it hard work finding examples for the ‘first of two’, and most of those I found debateable. There are far more Scripture supporting the other two examples, including those where other words for ‘protos’ are translated instead of ‘first’ e.g ‘former’. So Posties cannot claim that ‘the first of two’ is primary. Imo.

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan

May I ask you a question?
I was wondering if you have ever read "Footsteps of the Messiah" by Arnold Fruchtenbaum?

Nathan Jones said...

E.I., I wish I had, but not yet. Sooooo many good books out there.

Mitchell reeled us into a conversation, didn't he? :) All his talk about literal exegisis, then saying "all the world" only means the Middle East, or the Four Horsemen represent kingdoms. Or a quarter of the people on the Earth dying doesn't mean a quarter of all the earth. Sheesh, so much for a literal, exegetical interpretation. No wonder we've been dancing in circles with him for years.

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan
This bit made me snort!
"The term "Jew" is used here in a SPIRITUAL sense".

You are so kind Nathan, it is a relief to hear you sound a little like I feel! (Which is cheesed off)This place has been a haven to me, but it gets so depressing having to keep defending over and over what I know to be true without even so much as a shadow of a doubt i.e. Pre-trib and clear disctinctions between Israel and the Church using a Literal interpretation of Scripture like Jesus did! Can't help worrying that the unwary coming here will be deceived by Postie dross, we need all the encouragment we can get, not undermined by drivel.imo

I have been wondering if you are all being affected by the wind in Texas? (Ya know what I mean :D) We are having quite a bit, but its so hot, its a relief to feel a brisk breeze.

Re. AF and 'Footsteps', I know you are really too busy to read much, but do you actually own the book?

Keep you and yours safe and close to Jesus, the birth pangs are coming quicker now, who knows when 'the waters' will break? Maranatha!x

Anonymous said...

That's really good going on protos, EI.

I think what happens is that we can take a word that supports our view and then try to attach a narrow-technical meaning to it to defend it. Apantesis, tereo ek, protos, parousia etc are some examples.

On the other hand, where a technical approach doesn't suit us we can take the word translated as earth (ge) and argue that it can mean region and not the whole world - which is true. It depends on what view you want to defend and what presuppositions you have.

Frankly I get tired of debating but every once in a while I throw my lot in. I haven't changed anyone's mind yet but I'm slowly learning stuff.

BTW, Footsteps is a great book in my opinion.

Is there such a think as a flexible-literal interpretation?

rg

Expected Imminently said...

Rg Ooo you darling, you have cheered me up no end. :D

I do understand that there is so much more to Greek (and Hebrew) than a simple word search can convey. I have read it is really expressive and able to fine tune a word giving much more information, with the prefix and suffix showing wider information than the basic root word. I am sure this is true, and I believe it, but I don’t actually KNOW it for myself. Knowing how Basic English grammar works helps a bit, and mine is limited, but at least I know what to look out for e.g. plural etc; but that’s no where like as good as knowing Latin grammar. I know of it, but I haven’t had the privilege for that type of edikashun as Dennis might say.

Knowing fully how Greek works will give no room for confusion or ambiguity (I read) the formation of the root words of a passage virtually paints a picture through the given letters. It is apparent to me that people like Mitchell are playing around the edges and not grasping the true depth of a passage, never mind a single word. I find this rather dishonest I’m afraid, as the ‘one eyed man is king in the kingdom of the blind’. The ‘king’ may not be much cop, but he’s the one with the eye so he tries to lead with a little bit of ‘science’. That’s frustrating to me as I can sense there is a problem, but don’t have the savvy to work it out. Yet I am like a terrier with a rag in its teeth and I can’t stop worrying at it until I at least TRY to make a bit of sense of it. AND, above all, I mustn’t forget the prompting of The Holy Spirit.
Spurgeon said “Discernment is not about knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is about knowing the difference between right and nearly right” (something like that) but it’s true. I have learned (mostly) to be warned by the check in my spirit that all is not as it seems, and then stand back; pray, wait and/or work for the answer. It can take years for my head to catch up with what my spirit knows, in my experience.

Do we mean the same thing?

I appreciate ‘Footsteps’ so much that I rather think AF is a latter day ‘Paul for the gentiles’ with his grasp of Scripture and language.

Rg said “Is there such a think as a flexible-literal interpretation?”

There is one I can think of. One can literally be said to have diarrhoea, but the interpretation of its viscosity is very flexible. Imo.

Expected Imminently said...

Rg Ooo you darling, you have cheered me up no end. :D

I do understand that there is so much more to Greek (and Hebrew) than a simple word search can convey. I have read it is really expressive and able to fine tune a word giving much more information, with the prefix and suffix showing wider information than the basic root word. I am sure this is true, and I believe it, but I don’t actually KNOW it for myself. Knowing how Basic English grammar works helps a bit, and mine is limited, but at least I know what to look out for e.g. plural etc; but that’s no where like as good as knowing Latin grammar. I know of it, but I haven’t had the privilege for that type of edikashun as Dennis might say.

Knowing fully how Greek works will give no room for confusion or ambiguity (I read) the formation of the root words of a passage virtually paints a picture through the given letters. It is apparent to me that people like Mitchell are playing around the edges and not grasping the true depth of a passage, never mind a single word. I find this rather dishonest I’m afraid, as the ‘one eyed man is king in the kingdom of the blind’. The ‘king’ may not be much cop, but he’s the one with the eye so he tries to lead with a little bit of ‘science’. That’s frustrating to me as I can sense there is a problem, but don’t have the savvy to work it out. Yet I am like a terrier with a rag in its teeth and I can’t stop worrying at it until I at least TRY to make a bit of sense of it. AND, above all, I mustn’t forget the prompting of The Holy Spirit.
Spurgeon said “Discernment is not about knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is about knowing the difference between right and nearly right” (something like that) but it’s true. I have learned (mostly) to be warned by the check in my spirit that all is not as it seems, and then stand back; pray, wait and/or work for the answer. It can take years for my head to catch up with what my spirit knows, in my experience.

Do we mean the same thing?

I appreciate ‘Footsteps’ so much that I rather think AF is a latter day ‘Paul for the gentiles’ with his grasp of Scripture and language.

Rg said “Is there such a think as a flexible-literal interpretation?”

There is one I can think of. One can literally be said to have diarrhoea, but the interpretation of its viscosity is very flexible. Imo.

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan
I am SO sorry for the double post, I don't know how I managed that?
x

DrNofog said...

Nathan said...
"...Sheesh, so much for a literal, exegetical interpretation. No wonder we've been dancing in circles with him for years."

Good catch, Nathan!

So now we have "spiritualization" in addition to a "reading/comprehension problem", AND

"relieving context!"

Anonymous said...

EI, it looks like you're way ahead of me in the grammar! I recently got a hold of a copy of Bibleworks 8 to help me get into the original languages. Great program but it cannot replace a proper education - which I ain't got.

I appreciate Mitchell's (and other vocal non-pretribbers) posts even though I disagree because they make me want to search different ideas out for myself.

rg

DrNofog said...

EI said...
I am SO sorry for the double post, I don't know how I managed that?

Did you fall asleep at the keyboard again, with your finger on the "send" button, or were you just having one of those "senior moments"?

I wanted to point out that's one of the first of 3 things...

Hmmm...

What was I talking about again?
;-D

Expected Imminently said...

DrNofog and rg
This is a quick acknowledgement with HUGS. Hubby has an emergency with collapsed friend. He needs me to drive second car.

Prayers for poor old Donald please.
x

Laura said...

As for being discouraged about people who post beliefs/opinions disagreeing with yours, a word to the wise: It should be perfectly fine if NOBODY agrees with you!

Come on, folks! Can we not be gracious to those who don't agree with us? Let's remember that our beliefs and opinions are not US. So when someone is debating your beliefs/opinions, they're not attacking YOU!

In other words, let's grow up about this, okay?

Expected Imminently said...

Laura
I don't think any of us Pretribs are defending our own beliefs and personal opinions, or expecting everyone to agree with us for that matter.

To me it isn’t ‘absolutely fine’ if no one else agrees me, as I would see that as a loud warning that I am probably mistaken and need to correct myself before The Lord.

We surely come here to be built up in what we know is God’s Word as Pretribs. If others make it a campaign to come and undermine us, and present another gospel of works, and torture Scripture, then we have a clear, Biblical mandate to defend the Truth. Yes I get discouraged, but if I don’t find encouragement here, then needs must to look elsewhere to be built up in the most Holy Faith, which I haven’t got on a physical level.

God bless you Laura for being candid.
Sue x