Friday, September 3, 2010

Olivet Discourse: Timing Clues

Dr. David R. ReaganPDFBy Dr. David R. Reagan

Is there any proof that Matthew 24 is both prefilled in prophetic type and yet to be fulfilled in history?

Let's begin with verse 14. It states that all the events described in Matthew 24 will take place at a time when the Gospel has been preached to all the world.

This certainly had not taken place by the year 70 A.D. In fact, it still has not taken place to this date. Using modern technology like radio, television, movies, satellites, and the Internet, we have been able to proclaim the Gospel to more people than ever before in history, but we still have not reached all the people in the world.

The book of Revelation reveals that this will not be accomplished until late in the Tribulation when God will send forth an angel who will preach the "eternal gospel" to "every nation and tribe and tongue and people" (Revelation 14:6).


Daniel's Prophecy

Next, let's consider verse 15. It says the period of intense persecution of Jews will begin when "the abomination of desolation," spoken of by Daniel, is seen "standing in the holy place." We have no historical record of such an event taking place in 70 A.D. Unlike the Greek tyrant, Antiochus Epiphanes, who desecrated the Temple's holy place in 168 B.C. by erecting within it an altar to Zeus, the Roman general Titus took no such action in 70 A.D. before he destroyed the city and the Temple.


The Intensity of the Tribulation

The third point to note is found in verse 21. It says that the period of Jewish persecution that will follow the desecration of the Temple will be the most intense in all of history, "since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall [be]."

These words were not fulfilled in 70 A.D. The persecution which the Jews experienced under Titus was severe, but it pales in comparison to what the Jews suffered during the Nazi Holocaust of World War II.

Josephus says the Romans killed a million Jews in the 70 A.D. siege of Jerusalem. Historians are convinced that this number is greatly exaggerated. But even if it is true, it is nothing compared to the six million Jews who perished at the hands of the Nazis.

Furthermore, the prophet Zechariah tells us that during the end times a total of two-thirds of the Jewish people will die during a period of unparalleled calamity (Zechariah 13:8-9). In other words, there is a period of Jewish persecution yet to occur that will even exceed the horrors of the Nazi Holocaust. According to the book of Revelation, this will occur during the second half of the Tribulation. It is the reason that Jesus referred to that part of the Tribulation as the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21).

Consider verse 21 again: "for then there will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." Did Jesus mean what He said or not? Surely this is not an example of hyperbole — of exaggeration to make a point. Everything in the passage screams that we are to take Jesus' words literally.

The conclusion is inescapable. The tribulation experienced by the Jews in 70 A.D. was not the greatest "since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be."


The Severity of the Tribulation

The fourth piece of evidence is found in verse 22. Jesus says that the period of "great tribulation" (verse 21) that He is talking about will be so severe that all life will cease unless the period is cut short.

You and I live in the only generation in history when these words could be literally fulfilled. There was no possibility in 70 A.D. that the siege of Jerusalem would lead to the extinction of all life. But that is a very real threat today due to the development and deployment of nuclear weapons.

The best selling book of 1982, The Fate of the Earth, proved that if there is ever an all out nuclear exchange between the United States and Russia, all life on earth will cease to exist.


The Proximity of the Tribulation

The fifth clue that Matthew 24 is yet to be fulfilled is found in verse 29. It says the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation of those days." How can we escape the impact of the word "immediately"? I don't think we can. It clearly ties the preceding events to the immediate time of Jesus' return.

As I have already pointed out, some Amillennialists who are also Preterists have tried to deal with this problem in a fanciful way by claiming that the Second Coming of Jesus actually occurred in 70 A.D.! But to argue, as they do, that Jesus returned spiritually, and therefore invisibly, is to deny the promise made in Acts 1:11 that Jesus will return in the same manner in which He ascended to Heaven — bodily and visibly.

The claim that the Second Coming occurred in 70 A.D. is, of course, ludicrous, but it shows the extent to which some people will go to try to make Scripture conform to a particular pre-conceived doctrine.


The Context of the Tribulation

The final evidence that Matthew 24 was not fulfilled in 70 A.D. is to be found in verses 32-35, where Jesus says that all the things He has spoken of concerning the Tribulation will be fulfilled during the generation that sees the "fig tree" reblossom. Here is the key to the timing of the prophecy's fulfillment.

What is the "fig tree"? The fig tree is often used in Scripture as a symbol of the nation of Israel (Jeremiah 24:1-10; Hosea 9:10; Joel 1:7; and Luke 13:6-9). So, I think what Jesus is saying here is that all the events prophesied in Matthew 24 will be fulfilled at the time when the nation of Israel is re-established.

But we really don't have to guess at the symbolic meaning of the fig tree. Think back for a moment to what had happened the day before. Jesus had put a curse on a barren fig tree (Matthew 21:18-19), causing it to wither. It was a prophetic sign that God would set the Jewish nation aside because of their spiritual barrenness — that is, their refusal to accept Jesus as their Messiah.

Now, the next day, Jesus calls the fig tree to mind and says, "Watch it. When it reblossoms, all these things will happen."

The setting aside of Israel occurred in 70 A.D. The reblossoming took place on May 14, 1948 when the nation of Israel was re-established.


A Fact to Ponder

Matthew 24 is not history. The terrible events of 70 A.D. were a classic prefillment in type of the ultimate fulfillment that will occur immediately before the Lord returns.

Matthew 24 is prophecy yet to be fulfilled. It is going to be fulfilled soon, for Israel has been regathered, the nation has been re-established, and the nations of the world are coming together against the Jewish state. The wrath of God is about to fall. We are on the threshold of the Great Tribulation.

As you ponder this reality, are you ready for it? Have you received Jesus as your Lord and Savior? The Bible says that if you put your faith in Jesus, you need not fear the wrath of God, for "having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him" (Romans 5:9).


Does the Olivet Discourse have any application to the Church? Find out as we continue with the next segment in this "Olivet Discourse" series!

51 comments:

Anonymous said...

Great thoughts.

rg

Rodney said...

If we believe in a modern Psalm 83 application as put forth in Isralestine authored by Bill Salus, then the Tribulation would be years away, yet all indications are that the time is near. I have attempted to contact this author to have a open and public debate regarding this authors theory of a Greater Israel, exceedingly great army, and staggering prosperity, yet to no avail. What is this author afraid of, will his theory be proven false and the credibility of those scholars that have chosen to embrace this fable be in question? This theory has never been challenged going against the tenet of the scriptures to prove all things, to correct, and rebuke those in error. That is shameful.

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney
I really don't think Bill Salus is afraid. More like busy, busy,busy. Very recently he was here in the U.K. and did an interview with Bob Mitchell on Revelation T.V. I haven't seen it yet, but Bob is glowing about the programme; which is interesting since Bill is Pretrib and Bob is a Postie.
:)

Rodney said...

Expected Imminently
As you are well aware I disagree with the content of Isralestine and the whole theory that proposes a conflict where the IDF is victorious. I only question why this theory was never debated among prophecy scholars instead of immediately embraced and marketed as truth. Perhaps you can tell me where Joel 3:2 identifies with a greater Israel or why Ezekiel 37:11 identifies this exceedingly great army as recorded in verse 10 as the whole house of Israel not a military formation?

Rodney said...

The Fig Tree represents national Israel, the blooming did not take place until the 1967 Six Day War in the capturing of much territory and the Holy City Jerusalem as a whole combined with the Temple Mount. Jerusalem was the key, without it being in the possession of Israel, the prophetic clock would remain halted.

Daniel 9:24 identifies this clearly, without the capturing of Jerusalem none of the Tribulation events concerning Israel including the Temple and the Abomination of Desolation could take place. The Fig Tree designates a life span of the generation that witnessed this reunification, this life span is 50 years bringing us into 2017.

A Fig Tree once planted takes 7 years before it is able to produce blossoms or bear fruit, therefore 1948 does not fit the category. We can see clearly the summer is nigh, the time of ripening of grapes, figs, and olives. Grapes representing the wrath of God, Figs restoration of Israel, Olives representing the redemption of Israel and the annointing of the Messiah.

Rodney said...

The Fig Tree matures at the age of 50 and without grafting will fail to produce fruit.

Anonymous said...

EI, I watched part of the interview with Bill and Bob - or should that be, Bob and Bill? I enjoyed what I saw.

BTW, I was present at a Q & A with Dr Frucht where he was asked about Bill's theory. Dr Frucht disagrees with it. But I cannot now recall what the reason was.

rg

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney

I do not disagree with you as I have my own doubts over Isralestine.

I was able to express this to Bill on his blog a while ago, as did others, which is why I think him approachable and not ‘afraid’ to answer qustions. As for ‘publishing without debate’; I think it more a case of ‘let the others judge’, after all his theory is on paper, not set in stone. imo

As for the Fig Tree! According to Dr Fruchtenbaum- a messianic Jew- it is the Vine that represents Israel, not the Fig Tree. Over the doorway into the Temple was a silver Vine and worshipers could buy silver grapes to hang on it.

Of course the fig certainly has a part to play, I looked on Ariel’s Q&A but I couldn’t find any info. I will try and check ‘Footsteps…’ later on to clarify.

As far as I remember, AF says the Fig Tree and ALL the trees are but symbols of approaching summer for the fruition of ‘thing’s’. We have a fig in the garden and I think it may be the first to leaf in the spring, at least in Israel it is.
(I am distracted by Brian May on guitar – wow)

Rg Yes, Bill did speak to Dr Frucht about his view; this is another reason why I don’t consider Bill is ‘afraid’ of dissenters. I do know Bill was excited that the Frucht conceded the Psalm 83 battle ‘possible’; otherwise, no he didn’t agree with the view, and I can’t remember why either?

MARANATHA!

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan
Although it is none of my business, I have just voted with what appears to be with the 'Yes' majority. That is how I would feel if it happened here in the U.K.

It's how I feel about T.B. making a practicing pagan the Archbishop over the C.of.E.

SeanOsborne said...

Rodney wrote:

"I have attempted to contact this author to have a open and public debate regarding this authors theory of a Greater Israel, exceedingly great army, and staggering prosperity, yet to no avail."

This is absolutely and completely untrue and Rodney Dezarn knows it to be untrue.

Not only was Rodney Dezarn in contact with Bill Salus (and myself) via Bill's Prophecy Depot blog, but he was subsequently ignored by Bill Salus and denied further commenting privilidges. Rodney was awarded the same penalty on my own blog.

Moreover, the commenters to this blog also need to be advised that within the past two weeks Rodney began using a new screen name - "Watchman12" - with which he attempted to introduce his same tired old and basless arguments onto the Rapture Forums thread discussion, and the same bald-faced lies and accusations against Bill Salus.

I took it upon myself to inform Chris Schang at Rapture Forums that Rodney Dezarn is one and the same individual as "Watchman12."

Rodney was immediately banned from further posting at Rapture Forums.

Now Nathan and all of the readers here have a better idea of what Rodney is all about.

SeanOsborne said...

Dr. Reagan's leading point in making a direct connection between Matthew 24:14 and Revelation 14:6 is one of the most eschatologically important revelatory 'last days' points there are.

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney
Concerning ‘generation’.

Gesenius’s Lexicon primarily says that a generation is ‘an age of men’ i.e. plural, not a man, singular; these are contemporary’s, those living at a particular time.

The Hebrews reckoned a generation from 30 to 40 years (Job42:6) but at the time of the Patriarchs it was considered 100 yrs. (Genesis15:16) compare with vs.14 and in Exodus 12:40 it often means a ‘race of men’.

This is obviously simplistic as so much depends on the grammar e.g. a plural form can signify ‘in perpetuity’, for ‘ever and ever’ Psalm72:5; 102:25 and particularly Isaiah 51:8 is used of generations as ‘ages to come’.

The Greek is genea and is virtually the same as the Hebrew definition.
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Thayers cites the definition of Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; as #3 “the whole multitude of men living at the same time.” Then adds “especially the Jewish race living at the same time”.

A.Frucht places ‘this generation’ during the middle of the Tribulation, as the generation of Jews who will witness the defiling of the Temple by a/c. This generation of Jews would survive to witness the 2nd coming of Messiah 3½ years hence.

Taking Midrash into consideration, it MAY be possible it has a dual meaning? But we need to be cautious as doctrine must not be established upon ‘type’. (apparently)

Sue

Expected Imminently said...

Sean
I agree absolutely with your comment about the vital connection between:
Matthew 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
AND
Revelation 14:6. And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; nasb

Rodney said...

Sean, maybe you should ask Bill to check his voice mail, after contacting the number he has posted on his website. The scriptures make clear that the theory proposed in Isralestine now accepted as truth by some scholars is false and their credibility remains in question.

Their remains some scholars that are yet not persuaded by this fable and I hold them in high regard, yet I also hope that they will publicly debate this issue to reveal it for what it truly is. May the Lord God make it possible. It is also obvious Sean that you will defend this fallacy to the end because of your endless and false military accessments.

It should be obvious at this time that Israel nor the U.S. will attack Iran, Russia is the premier guard of Iranian interests as recorded in Ezekiel 38:7. The United States nor our N.A.T.O. allies wish to provoke Russia into a conflict, as if Chinese interests in Iran were not enough.

Nathan Jones said...

Rodney, aren't you tired yet of being banned from every site you visit? I appreciate your comments and insights and welcome them, just don't make them personal.

As you're the only one who has a personal beef with Bill Salus, then maybe the problem lies with your interpretation?

SeanOsborne said...

This will all be fully resolved once the final acts of the literal fulfillment of Psalm 83 - and associated prophecies - become a real-world reality.

This fulfillment is currently in the process of a literal, real-world fulfillment. Who would bother to debate such a thing as this?

SeanOsborne said...

With respect to EI's comments about a generation, here's something I just observed in my reading on this topic.

From the time of the Exodus until the Jews arrived at the Jordan crossing, how much time elapsed?

40 years. A "generation."

And then from the time when the Jews entered the land and began the physical conquest at the command of God under Y'hoshua, the son of Nun, how much time elapsed - including all of Lebanon per Joshua 13:1-7?

40 years. A "generation."

Do we see here the "generation of Yehoshua being the one per Psalm 90:10, i.e. a generation of strength (a generation of 80 years), to its fulfillment?

And associated with this... the name Yehoshua is the same name given to our Lord and Savior.

Coincidence?

This is a study in progress, but it struck me profoundly this weekend regarding the modern founding and fight for national existence of Israel.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Sean

The little I know about Midrash I learned through Jacob Prasch of Moriel. Midrash was/is a form of interpretation used by the Rabbis, their hermeneutic for understanding Scripture.

I think I am right in saying that you are referring to 'type'. The types result in ‘anti-type’ which is the completion of a prophecy, or rather its final fulfilment. Jacob said that Prophecy does not so much mean ‘telling the future’ rather it is a ‘repeated pattern’ such as you described with Joshua / Yeshuah . So what you say has credence, but ‘type’ is only a portion, and we cannot be definite that things will be finally fulfilled in exactly the same way, and certainly not try to make doctrine out of Midrash.

http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/midrash.htm

Bill Salus said...

Hello dear Lamb & Lion bloggers. Nathan kindly let me know about the blog activity going on here. So here is my two cents worth.

Regarding; Fruchtenbaum's position on Psalm 83: The link below illustrates Fruchtenbaum's present position on Psalm 83 as best as I can determine. He has changed his mind from placing it in the Tribulation. His Footsteps of the Messiah book put it in the Trib. Now he says the majority of it will be fulfilled Pre-Trib. I pointedly asked him on the timing in our two part Prophecy Update radio interview, which can be heard at this link.
http://prophecydepot.blogspot.com/2009/12/is-psalm-83-great-tribulation-event.html

Arnold and I spoke together at a prophecy conference in Palm Springs earlier this year and I’m comfortable he's real clear on my Psalm 83 position. He says on the back cover of Isralestine "I think you present valid arguments for your position.”

Dr. Fruchtenbaum and I have known each other for over a decade and have had several friendly conversations over interpretation and prophetic timing discrepancies. For instance, he teaches Obadiah preceded Joel and Jeremiah. He suggests Joel and Jeremiah quote Obadiah. I got him to concede to the possibility that Obadiah could be Jeremiah's contemporary and that Obadiah was quoting Joel and Jeremiah as per Jer. 49:14 and Obadiah 1:1.

In fact one of the only ways we can determine the timing of Obadiah’s ministry is by comparing these two passages together. Jeremiah says “I have heard a report” (shemuah) and Obadiah says “we have heard a report” (shemuah). The message they both heard is essentially the same. Thus Jeremiah probably first heard the report and then Obadiah.

Regarding Rodney; my debate is published in Isralestine. Regarding your thinking that the Isralestine hypothesis pushes the Tribulation period far into the future. It is relevant to how soon the Rapture, Psalm 83, Ezekiel 38 and several other Pre-Trib things take place. Rodney, you are entitled to your own opinion but we will have to agree to disagree on the Isralestine hypothesis. I’m not interested in a public debate and stated the same to Walid Shoebat who invited one about two years ago.

As I informed Walid, Isralestine is a detailed work that clearly states my prophetic interpretations.

There are some eschatologists who agree with it like Reagan, Missler, Hocking, Farah, and Bernis and some who don’t, like Shoebat, Ice, and Hindson.

I believe Psalm 83 is about to happen and that it will set the stage for Ezekiel 38. I’ve heard the arguments and still believe I’m correct.

Rodney said...

Bill, the problem with I have with your Psalm 83 scenario is that it will not lead to a peaceful or secure situation for Israel and in fact will lead to a far worse situation. It would require Israel to occupy a large expanse of territory while being constantly under the threat of terror.

The situation we presently have with the Palestinians would be on a much larger scale. Israel does not have the resources nor the will to engage in such a large occupational force. The International Community surely would immediately pressure Israel to depart these Arab territories.

The exceedingly great army that you so willingly quote is identified in Ezekiel 37:11 as the whole House of Israel, not a military formation. The Prophet Zechariah as well as Joel indicate the Land of Israel will continue to be partitioned even leading up to the Battle of Armegeddon as recorded in Zechariah 12:2-3 and Joel 3:2.

Evidently scripture does not provide for a Greater Israel without the advent of the Messiah. If you truly examine the content of Ezekiel 38-39 you will clearly see those nations in which you claim are absent, yet found in Psalm 83 are included. The Prophet Ezekiel identifies Israel as slumbering, and dwelling carelessly (betach) as their enemies fiercly arm and prepare for conflict. That is the situation we have today.

I would like to go into more detail, yet space is limited. Psalm 83 will find fulfillment in Ezekiel 38-39, in answer to the prayer of Asaph, that is my conclusion based on the clear text. Thank you for adressing the forum and may the Lord judge between you and I, what is truth and what is fable. Shalom, Baruch ha ba B'Shem ADONAI.

Rodney said...

To all hear, I am a lover of the truth of the Word of God, I desire to know whom I worship. When one comes with a new prophetic perspective and it is said that many were not so illuminated to see this for themselves, it sets off alarm bells within my soul.

Then to have it accepted and not proven and marketed as truth brings me to a boiling point. We are to prove all things scripture to scripture, not resort conjecture or the twisting or manipulation of the clear text. My beef as some have labeled is not against Bill Salus personally but against all those who are considered credible scholars and have not put this to the test.

It is solely a matter of trust, if those who also hold the scriptures in high regard will not engage in debate concerning these things, then where is our credibility. Prophecy is of no hidden interpretation, it was provided to us all, that we might know what is to come.

The Apostle John makes this clear concerning the mission of the Holy Spirit in a believers life in the following text: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come-John 16:13.

If the Lord delivered it, it will be by the mouth of Two Witnesses, if then the Prophets do not agree concerning these things, then it is not so nor did it come from the Lord. Take the example of Islam, Mormonism, and many others, their revelations came by one man, with no other to substantiate their claims.

Rodney said...

Were you and I not so illuminated to see such a great revelation. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are commandments of the Lord. And the spirits of he prophets are subject to the prophets-1 Corinthians 14:32,36,37.

Rodney said...

Perhaps I am just an ignorant man, stubborn, not willing to compromise, a troublemaker, causing strife wherever I go, a rebel, never satisfied with the status quo. Was that not how our Lord and his Apostles were viewed?

SeanOsborne said...

Rodney said...
"Bill, the problem with I have with your Psalm 83 scenario is that it will not lead to a peaceful or secure situation for Israel and in fact will lead to a far worse situation. It would require Israel to occupy a large expanse of territory while being constantly under the threat of terror."

Rodney,

Apparently you have not fully read or comprehended Isralestine.

Doing so would be a good thing, a place to start and it would almost certainly alter your current preceptions about Psalm 83, the inter-related prophecies, and most importantly the aftermath of Israel's recovery from the war, which is made crystal clear by the Lord per Ezekiel 38:8 and 11-12.

The gained wealth is clearly foretold by the Lord. And it is beyond question that Israel will gain much new territory from that which Israel now possesses. The Valley of the Passengers in present day Jordan is proof of the expansion that will accompany the other spoils gained by Israel through the Psalm 83 warfare.

Read the book. Then it can be discussed intelligently.

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney
I see the difficulties relating to Psalm 83 and Ezek.Gog Magog similar to those over Ezek.Gog Magog and the Battle of Armageddon. There are similarities as well as differences – being ‘similar’ does not = the same.

The peoples described in Psalm 83 are missing from the Ezek. account, and these missing people are those who have borders with present Israel.

It was fellow Brit.Tony Pearce of Light for the Last Day’s who first made me aware of Psalm 83, a long time before Isralestine was ever published, so I have to say that this view has been held by others independently of Bill.

For me it is a question of basic common sense, not scholarship; that these events are separated one from the other. How far apart they are remains to be seen.

Concerns over the likes or dislikes of the PA, and what they will not allow Israel to do, fades immediately if these people are ‘dealt with’ (along with Damascus?) prior to the Ezek. Gog Magog battle. Indeed I wonder if their failure is what causes Gog to come forth to ‘finish the job’.

My own difficulties lay with the interpretation of the word ‘betach’ and how that affects Israel’s situation.

I understand passion Rodney, only too well; it is not a vice but needs to be reigned in when it is causing strife. If your objections were linked with doctrine e.g. teaching another gospel; then it is even more important to ‘contend for the faith’. But if no one listens, we are told to come apart!

In reality this is about interpretation of prophecy, not doctrine. We are told not to despise prophesying, but to judge the words. That is what you have faithfully done by expressing your view, so it is now down to us all to decide yea or nay before God.

You have done your part, now you must 'let go and let God', lest a root of bitterness springs up.imho

God bless you :)
Sue

Anonymous said...

Nice to see you post here, Bill. I've been too busy to do much reading up till now but I've decided to buy and read your book.

Rodney, that doesn't mean I'll swallow it hook line and sinker.

rg

Expected Imminently said...

Bill
A big hello fagain from Susan U.K.
I am so pleased you have posted. :D

Bob Mitchell was as pleased as punch with your interview; so now I can tease him a bit more that you are Pre!

I am just sorry I wasn't able to get to a meeting. However it won't be long ere we explain it to Bob on the way up!

God bless you
Sue
x

Expected Imminently said...

OOoo! How did that 'f' get there? Bill I wasn't trying to call you 'Fagan' - honest! :<

Gideon said...

Rodney,

You said:

"the problem with I have with your Psalm 83 scenario is that it will not lead to a peaceful or secure situation for Israel and in fact will lead to a far worse situation. It would require Israel to occupy a large expanse of territory while being constantly under the threat of terror."

That is the point, though Rodney. It is a false sense of security Israel experiences at the beginning of Ezekiel 38. There will obviously be a time when Israel experiences no attacks, and this lulls Israel into thinking they are secure.

One thing you have to understand is this verse:

Ezekiel 38:12 - I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, LIVING AT THE CENTER OF THE LAND.

Currently, Israel does not live at the center of the land mapped out by God to Abraham, so something has to change. In order for the nation of Israel to live at the center of the land means that they have to be living in areas where Arabs currently occupy.

Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17 are the only scriptures that answer this question as to how did they move to the center of the land.

Bill Salus said...

Hello again fellow bloggers. Fortunately, I had a moment to come back to this blog. Thanks for blogging.

I wrote an article published at Brannon Howse's site worldview weekend entitled Is Ezekiel 38 Imminent linked here
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=6203
This article addresses most all of the concerns listed in the blogs above. It explains why Ezekiel 38:6 does not enlist the Ps. 83 nations. Furthermore, it explains the logical interpretation of Ezekiel 37:10 being an exceedingly great army.

Additionally, the I.D.F. is in more than one place in Bible prophecy. They are in Ezekiel 25:14 and Obadiah 1:18 and elsewhere.

Lastly, Jeremiah 49:1-2, Isaiah 19:16-18, Ezekiel 39:11 (east of Dead Sea), and Obadiah 1:19-20 all suggest Israel becomes territorially greater prior to the return of Messiah.

Hope this further explains my position.

Anonymous said...

OK Bill. I've asked my wife and she's granted me permission to buy the book ;-)

rg

Rodney said...

The references that Mr. Bill Salus provides does not refer to a pretribulation event, yet when examined in context and crossreferenced refers to a Tribulation event prior to the establishment of the Kingdom of Yeshua. The reference to Obadiah 18 is defined in the previous verses as occuring during the day of the Lord.

The context indicates a time when Israel's enemies will be judged according to their treatment, their will be a recompense upon their heads. The other references provide also deal with the judgements of other enemies neighboring Israel, yet all these will occur during the same event, this can be quickly clarified.

The Prophet Zechariah informs us in Chapter 12, verse 8, that as the Lord returns he will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem and those that are feeble will be as David, and the House of David as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. Further in Zechariah in chapter 14, verse 14, we find a reference to the inhabitants of Judah fighting in Jerusalem and gathering the wealth of all the heathen round about them.

In conclusion, the Prophet Joel also makes reference to this great army commanded by the Lord and consisting of his people Israel in Joel 2:1-11. The Lord will fight with his people Israel against all the heathen round about them and will reestablish the Land of Promise. As recorded in verse 11..for he is strong that executeth his word.

Rodney said...

The reestablishment of the Promised Land will not occur until the Lord returns and commands his army consisting of his people, as the will devour the residue of their enemies round about them. When we take scripture out of context it is easy to misinterpret events.

Rodney said...

I believe that those that escape during the Abomination of Desolation will become this great army that the Lord commands and will go forth conquering with the Lord culminating in their arrival to Jerusalem. The battle will contine within the city until victory is complete and the Lord takes his rightful place on the Throne of David. You will notice Zechariah 14:14 makes reference to this great spoil that Israel will accumulate from this battle consisting of silver, gold, and apparel from all their enemies round about them. Shalom my friends.

Nathan Jones said...

Thank you for your reference and input, Bill! A good read.

Thanks for your input, too, Rodney. Your last post, are you saying the exceedingly great army will be the Jews driven out of Jerusalem at the midpoint of the Tribulation?

If I'm understanding you correctly, then the questions that come to mind are: 1) why would the Lord need to supernaturally protect an army in the wilderness, and 2) why are they not mentioned coming along with Chirst when He returns at Armageddon, and 3) why would they wait 3 1/2 years to reconquer Jerusalem if they were so great an army? Thanks!

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan dear

I stand in awe that you understood that well enough to make a coherent reply. :O

Gideon said...

Rodney,

You said:

"I believe that those that escape during the Abomination of Desolation will become this great army that the Lord commands and will go forth conquering with the Lord culminating in their arrival to Jerusalem."

There is no scripture to back this up. In fact, these are the people all nations are gathered against, and would be slaughtered if it were not for the return of Jesus. Jesus returns with his saints, not these people gathered. When Jesus returns, He wipes out all that are gathered to do battle against Israel (those that escaped the AoD).

Rodney said...

In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David as God, as the angel of the LORD before them Zechariah 12:8. In this text you will notice that the inhabitants of Jerusalem or remaining Jews yet in the city will become as a mighty warrior before the Lord in comparison to David, and as the angel of the Lord or Destroyer before them.

And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, silver, and apparel, in great abundance Zechariah 14:14. Here we notice that Judah joining with the Lord in battle against their enemies round about them will subdue their enemies and gather the spoils.

Joel 2:1-11 indicate a strong and fierce army that will be empowered to destroy their enemies and lay waste the land before them, this army is commanded by the Lord himself as revealed in verse 11. The Lord has promised to restore and redeem Israel yet to also make these enemies his footstool.

Ezekiel 25:14 corresponds with Obadiah in the destruction of Edom during the day of the Lord, clearly designated the Tribulation. The text in Ezekiel also identifies that the destruction of Edom will come by the hand of Israel. Therefore we can conclude this great and mighty army depicted in Joel 2 is Israel commanded by the Lord God.

And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?-Joel 2:11. Is my speech so hard that none can understand the meaning of my words accompanied with the scriptures.

Rodney said...

In all of this, I believe I have proven my point and now view a familiar tactic where I am considered to difficult to understand and that my evidence is confusing and without merit. I have proven without a doubt that the references provided by Bill Salus are in context during the day of the Lord or the Tribulation.

There was no reply regarding this, only the assumption that perhaps I am ignorant or without biblical knowledge or severly confused. I have provided scripture throughout my replies, if any lack understanding it can only be assumed that something is missing or lost in interpretation.

This will be my last comment on this forum. I have enjoyed these discussions concerning the scriptures yet there is a season for all things. The season approaches now for me to be silent and listen to the voice of the Lord. Shalom my friends, may the Lord continue to guide us unto all truth.

Nathan Jones said...

So, Rodney, you make a post after midnight and when nobody replies in 16 minutes you assume either nobody understands you or that the readers are lacking understanding. Tactic you say, huh?

Your theory is very interesting. The first I've ever heard of it. Ironic you accuse Isralestine of being one man's interpretation, but come up with your own unique interpretation.

I've never thought of those verses in your context, so thanks for that. Still, I can't see how Israel can be victorious by their own strength within the Tribulation. It is the "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), not their time of victory. They wouldn't need Christ's return if in their present state of rejecting Jesus as the Messiah believed their army could win out agains the Antichrist.

There are good reasons why nobody interpretes those verses in the context that you do.

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan, I do hope this isn’t a double post, as the first does not appear to have worked?


Rodney
No one thinks of you as ‘ignorant’, all of us can wear that label at one time or another. We presently see only through a glass darkly. It is you who have name called yourself. By disagreeing with your position must be taken as a personal insult.

Without getting embroiled, and with respect; the problem has come from your acceptance that ‘the day of The Lord’, also recorded with different phrasing, is only during the 7 yr Tribulation. That is not the case. If you search through a concordance, you will see that it can refer to just one, 24 hour day; 7 days long such as the Creation and other combinations presented in both the past and in the future.

You are disregarding the additional 75 day events when the 7 years ends with the return of Jesus, and confusing other events linked to the 1000 Messianic Rule, with Pre-Tribulation events and The Tribulation proper.

You have developed a uniquely muddled mix, imo, which prohibits attempting to answer your view on a blog such as this. Few have the time or energy to develop the depth of study and correspondence required to even approach a reply.

God bless you.
Sue.

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan, I do hope this isn’t a triple post, as the others do not appear to have worked? I am wondering if you ‘snookered me’; as I posted, your last one came up?:)

Rodney

No one thinks of you as ‘ignorant’, all of us can wear that label at one time or another. We presently see only through a glass darkly. It is you who have name called yourself, disagreeing with your position must be taken as a personal insult.

Without getting embroiled, and with respect; the problem has come from your acceptance that ‘the day of The Lord’, also recorded with different phrasing, is only during the 7 yr Tribulation. That is not the case. If you search through a concordance, you will see that it can refer to just one, 24 hour day; 7 days long such as the Creation and other combinations presented in both the past and in the future.

You are disregarding the additional 75 day events when the 7 years ends with the return of Jesus, and confusing other events linked to the 1000 Messianic Rule, with Pre-Tribulation events and The Tribulation proper. You have developed a uniquely muddled mix, imo, which prohibits attempting to answer your view on a blog such as this. Few have the time or energy to develop the depth of study and correspondence required to even approach a reply.

God bless you.
Sue.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Nathan
I am a bit confused! This is my fourth attempt to post on these particular comments. No idea whay the first didn't work. Then you and I must have posted across one another, third time I saw my post, appear, but then it was gone?

God bless
Sue

Nathan Jones said...

Weird, Sue, I got the notifications of your posts, but don't see the first 3 posted. Here's what E.I. wrote:

Rodney

No one thinks of you as ‘ignorant’, all of us can wear that label at one time or another. We presently see only through a glass darkly. It is you who have name called yourself, disagreeing with your position must be taken as a personal insult.

Without getting embroiled, and with respect; the problem has come from your acceptance that ‘the day of The Lord’, also recorded with different phrasing, is only during the 7 yr Tribulation. That is not the case. If you search through a concordance, you will see that it can refer to just one, 24 hour day; 7 days long such as the Creation and other combinations presented in both the past and in the future.

You are disregarding the additional 75 day events when the 7 years ends with the return of Jesus, and confusing other events linked to the 1000 Messianic Rule, with Pre-Tribulation events and The Tribulation proper. You have developed a uniquely muddled mix, imo, which prohibits attempting to answer your view on a blog such as this. Few have the time or energy to develop the depth of study and correspondence required to even approach a reply.

Expected Imminently said...

Thank you Nathan
It may have something to do with my end (of the internet?) I have been getting 'Service Error or unavaialable' notices several times now and other 'funnies'.

By the by, have you heard anything from DrNofog?

God bless.

Rodney said...

Nathan, I will have to respond to the obvious fact that perhaps you have not read my comments. The Prophet Zechariah identifies in Chapter 12, verse 8, and Chapter 14, verse 14, that Israel will be strengthened or empowered by the Lord at his return to fight against the enemies of Judah and Jerusalem. In addition the Prophet Joel identifies in Chapter 2, verse 11, that the Lord will command this army consisting of the House of Israel.

I would like to add that it is important to read a comment before posting a rebuttal. Clearly I did not say Israel would be fighting alone, it is clear in my comments that the Lord will empower them and lead them in battle.

Rodney said...

E.I., I have provided scriptural references to back my claims regarding the interpretation of events, while you openly dispute its content, you provide no scriptural proof to substantiate your claims. It appears you are not alone in this regard, niether has anyone else.

To be a responsible Christian you must question all things concerning doctrine and prove them with the scriptures, that is our duty. We are not to be followers of men, but followers of Christ only, we have no need to be taught, for the Holy Spirit is our instructor in truth and righteousness.

A perfect example of this, is that scholars today right many books speculating regarding the timing of the rapture using an end time calendar of events, yet at the same time they will tell you the Rapture could come at any moment and is a signless event. You can not have it both ways, evidently they are the ones confused, talk about a muddled mix.

Expected Imminently said...

You appeared hurt and offended, declaring you were never to post here again. I was attempting to reassure you that no-one thought you ‘ignorant’ and you SHOULD have seen my clear statement that I do not wish to become ‘EMBROILED’ in what I see as an extremely time consuming activity trying to show where you are mistaken.

It would seem; that you are as guilty as you accuse us of being, by not reading the responses properly.

I will ONLY repeat that I see your view as unique. I have never heard anything of its like, in all my long years. So considering everything has to be established with two or three witnesses, being unique with Scripture isn’t a good place to be imho.
Sue

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney

My apologies. My last comment was for you.

Rodney said...

I believe the Prophets Zechariah, Obadiah, and Joel are these witnessses E.I.

Mitchell said...

Sean Osborne says, "Dr. Reagan's leading point in making a direct connection between Matthew 24:14 and Revelation 14:6 is one of the most eschatologically important revelatory 'last days' points there are."

Dr. Reagan must have been following some of my online posts because this is something that I, too, have always taught. :-) See here for example about 2/3 down the post. (Caution: Not for those who are eschatologically inept!)