Tuesday, March 1, 2011

Another Sad Case of Apostasy

Dr. David R. ReaganPDFBy Dr. David R. Reagan

Sometime during the summer of 1983, when Lamb & Lion Ministries was only three years old, a strange man stopped by our offices and asked to speak to me. He introduced himself as Vendyl Jones, and then he smiled and said, "I'm the original Indiana Jones." He was referring, of course, to the main character in the very popular movie, Raiders of the Lost Ark, which was released in 1981.

When I asked him what he meant by his remark, he explained that he had been searching for the Ark of the Covenant for several years and that the main character in the Raiders movie had been modeled after him. I didn't know whether he was kidding or not, but one thing became very clear, very fast: he was obsessed with finding the Ark of the Covenant.


Vendyl Jones

After listening to him ramble on and on about the Ark and how essential it was to the building of the Third Temple, I finally found an opportunity to say a few words. I told him I did not think the discovery of the Ark was essential at all to the building of the Temple. When he asked why, I explained that the Ark was never in the Second Temple (the temple in the time of Jesus), and that it is not mentioned in the book of Ezekiel as being in the future Millennial Temple. Furthermore, I pointed out that Jeremiah prophesied that during the Millennium, "the ark shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they miss it, nor shall it be made again" (Jeremiah 3:16).

At that point, Mr. Jones lost interest in talking with me. He didn't try to argue. He just got up and left, and he left me wondering who he was and how he had found out about me. After all, my ministry was only three years old and was known to very few people.

In the following years, I kept running across Vendyl Jones in the news, and none of it was good. I discovered that he was an apostate Christian who had denounced the deity of Jesus and had become a leader in the Noahide Movement, a group that claims that Gentiles can be saved by following the laws of Noah as revealed in Genesis 9:1-17.


The Path to Apostasy

Vendyl Jones was born in 1930 in Sudan, Texas (in West Texas between Amarillo and Lubbock). He was raised in a Baptist home and accepted Jesus as his Savior at the age of 16. He decided to enter the ministry, and in order to pursue that goal, he attended classes at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, before transferring to the now-defunct Bible Baptist Seminary in Dallas where he earned two divinity degrees.

In 1955 at age 25 he became pastor of Dugan Chapel Baptist Church in Elizabethton, Tennessee. He claims that while studying the Bible there, he came across Matthew 27:25 where it is recorded that the Jewish people cried out to Pilate that the blood of Jesus "be on us and our children." He said there was a marginal note in his Bible that stated this passage was not in the oldest manuscripts. That deeply disturbed him. The more he thought about it, the more he became convinced that there was an anti-Semitic conspiracy among the early Church fathers to manipulate the Scriptures to put the blame for the death of Jesus on the Jewish people.

Jones resigned his pastorate in 1956 and moved to Greenville, South Carolina, where he started studying with a Jewish Rabbi. And thus began his journey into apostasy. Over the ensuing years, he rejected the virgin birth of Jesus, denied the deity of Jesus, declared all His miracles to be a sham, and scoffed at Jesus' resurrection.

He also embraced a form of Dual Covenant Theology, arguing that the Jews can be saved by following the Mosaic Covenant and that Gentiles can be saved by following the Laws of Noah.

Many times he was asked what Bible he was using when he discovered the notation that Matthew 27:25 was not in any of the oldest manuscripts, because that simply is not true. He would never reveal which version it was (because it doesn't exist!).


Shifting His Focus to Israel

In 1967 he moved his family to Israel in order to study at Hebrew University. Over the next four decades, he split his time between doing archaeological digs in Israel and touring the U.S. to raise money for the digs. He made two discoveries that captured headlines. One was a jug of oil he found near Qumran that he claimed was the anointing oil used at the Jerusalem Temple. The second was some red dirt that he claimed contained the 11 spices used in the Temple incense. Neither of these finds were ever endorsed by professional archaeologists.

Vendyl Jones died on December 27, 2010, at the age of 80 after suffering several months from throat cancer. Sadly, he left behind a legacy of having "trampled under foot the Son of God" and having "insulted the Spirit of grace" (Hebrews 10:29).

Matthew 27:25 is not an anti-Semitic blood libel. It is simply an historical recording of what Jews shouted at the trial of Jesus. Its implications were more than offset by the incredible words that Jesus spoke from the Cross: "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34).

98 comments:

Billy said...

It is people like James Cameron and Vendyl Jones (even more than some murderers and other evil doers) that make me accept the thought of an eternal hell.

An eternal hell for those that not only reject Jesus but actively do all they can to discredit Him seems justified.

To not be believe in Jesus is a terrible tragedy for many but others have declared war against Him. I think that is a big difference.

Child of God said...

I feel very sad for Vendyl Jones, to not make things right with God before he died. What a testimony it would have been to fallen Christians and atheists everywhere to hear a man like this confess Jesus as Lord and to say he was wrong.
I pray God will have mercy on him and all the wrong he has done.

Thanks for this information.

<><

Laura said...

I wonder if he was truly saved as a teenager. If so, all his denials of Jesus won't count against him. He's as saved as any other believer is.

I pity him. He was lost (in error) and very very confused.

And there's no way I could be angry about his sin. After all, under different circumstances, I might have come to the same conclusions as he did. There but for the grace of God go I!

Rodney said...

There are Apostate Ministers in many Churches today. In particular are those that would say the gifts of the Holy Spirit and even the Administrations are no longer in effect as illustrated clearly in 1 Corinthians 12. These men that foolishly claim such things are ignorant of the truth.

The Lord God is the same yesterday, today, and forever and even more is the power of the Holy Spirit for the equipping of the Saints. Has anyone ever wondered why we do not see the power and miracles exhibited by the Church as it was in the beginning? It is because men have seen fit to quench the Holy Spirit and have focused within among themselves and not outwardly to reach the lost.

The Church today exists as a shell of what it once was. Restoration is required, or could it be that the Jew in their rejection of Christ, the promise of salvation had come to the Gentiles, yet now the Gentiles have fallen in unbelief and the natural branches are being prepared to be restored, grafted in again as Romans 11:19-24 identifies so clearly. It would appear this is now coming to pass.

Rodney said...

The Holy Spirit will be poured out on the House of Israel at the conclusion of the Gog/Magog battle and the assembly of all those that were yet in the lands of their enemies as recorded in Ezekiel 39:25-29. The 144,000 of Revelation 11 is evidence of this transitional change, these Jewish males were prepared in advance for the time in which they will be sealed for their ministry.

Rodney said...

Interesting that now Iran as well as Russia will have a permanent naval base at Syrian ports. Seems to me, Gog/Magog is right around the corner, sorry to disappoint the "Isralestine" disciples.

RF said...

Laura said...
“I wonder if he was truly saved as a teenager. If so, all his denials of Jesus won't count against him. He's as saved as any other believer is.”

In response to this idea of once saved always saved no matter what a person does, I submit the following Scriptures. (All quotes are from the NIV).

First the surrounding Scriptures to the Scriptural reference Dr. Reagan quoted in his article.
Hebrews 6:4-8
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Hey, they did taste the heavenly gift, share in the Holy Spirit and were one enlightened for God’s Word is true as stated above. A person has to be legitimately saved in the first place to have had shared in the Holy Spirit.

Second Scripture - 2 Peter 2:17-22
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Well the above states that they did escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We know that this is so because God’s Word is true.

Third Scripture - John 15:1-8
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

So it is conditional, you have to “remain in Him.”

Part 1 of 2

RF said...

Part 2 of 2

Forth Scripture - 1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Fifth Scripture - 1 Corinthians 9:27
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Sixth Scripture - Mark 13:13
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Seventh Scripture - Matthew 10:21 & 22
21“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Eighth Scripture - Matthew 24:9-13
9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Ninth Scripture - Revelation 2:8 & 10
8 To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Tenth Scripture - Revelation 22:19
19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


God’s Word speaks for itself on this subject. Nothing else needs to be said.

Billy said...

RF said "God’s Word speaks for itself on this subject. Nothing else needs to be said." true so I'll just say I agree.

RF said...

I need to make a correction. The surrounding Scriptures to the Scriptural reference Dr. Reagan quoted in his article is below at Hebrew 10:26-31 not Hebrews 6:4-8 as I stated in my earlier post.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Also consider these two Scriptures -

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;

13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

I know that this is from the Old Testament but it is worth considering too.
Exekiel 18:21-24
21“But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

Expected Imminently said...

Laura,

I totally agree with you!!!

Do you know of any Scriptures that tells us to judge the salvation of another person? I am unable to find any at all, at least I have found nothing to date. In fact we are told not to judge the servant of another man.
Judging false teaching - definitely, but not salvation.

RF
Taking Scriptures out of their designated positions can prove anything you fancy.

NOTHING can separate us from God including our own faithlessness, because when we aren't - He remains faithful. It is the united Trinity that secures us, we can do nothing, it's all by the Grace of God, not works.

It will all be sorted at the Bema seat, and many will be 'brands plucked from the burning'.

(No, I am not Arminianist)

Sue

Rodney said...

Sharing in the Holy Spirit is evidenced by the Fruits of the Spirit. One can not bear this fruit without the Holy Spirit. In the denial of the Gifts of the Spirit that are provided to equip the believer to carry the Gospel to all men, it should be obvious they will exist as a barren tree.

The seed is the Word of God, as the ground (Firm Foundation) is watered by the Holy Spirit it begins to take Root (Faith). As the Tree (Promise) grows to maturity its branches or vines (Yeshua) extend which bear the fruit. The fruit can come in abundance or be very little, dependent upon our willingness to exercise our faith as we operate within the confines of the Gift we received from the Holy Spirit.

This Fruit will not come from serving only those that love us and neglecting the lost. We are provided with Gifts of the Holy Spirit to empower us to carry the message of the Gospel to all the world. If we do not believe in the Gifts of the Spirit, then we have no power, nor fruit. We exist as a barren or unfruitful tree, ready to be burned, consider the Parable of the Talents as told by our Lord.

RF said...

What I have posted I stand beside. I have not judged anyone here nor have I attacked anyone in this post. What I have done is post Scriptures in reference to this once saved always saved doctrine. The Scriptures speak for themselves on this subject.

Expected Imminently said...

RF
Yes you have my dear, you have attacked the character of God and grieved The Holy Spirit.

Your misplacement of Scripture is the usual CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! (boring; but sadly true).

This is no different to the atheist who rightly say’s that it is written in the Bible – ‘There is no God’. Psalm 14:1; 53:1. Same difference RF.

Hebrews is addressed to the Jewish believers who went back to the Temple to take part in the animal sacrifices when the persecutions began. There remains no other offering – only Jesus, it’s a waste of time going back to the dead, defunct law.

Oh, yes, the vine is ‘lifted up’ aerated, not cut off – simple Greek really; and it is dead works that are burned, not the believer. May well deserve to be chucked on the fire – BUT – GRACE, GRACE, GRACE.

Expected Imminently said...

ETERNAL SECURITY

NKJV

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

"It isn’t up to us to keep ourselves saved; we are in the double fisted grip of The Father and The Son, sealed in by The Holy Spirit".

Ephesians1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,14. who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."37. Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,39. nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Peter1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4. to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5. who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

“God’s Word speaks for itself on this subject. Nothing else needs to be said.”

RF said...

Expected Imminently it is unbelievable that you would attack me with such charges. I HAVE NOT ATTACKED GOD’S CHARTER IN ANY WAY FORM OR FASHION! In what way have I taken the Scriptures out of context by quoting them or attacked God character? Those are extremely serious charges! I haven’t attacked you at all but you have attacked me personally. For shame, for shame.

Romans 2:1-3
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

Sounds to me that this subject of being FAITHFUL to our Lord who has purchased us with His Blood must be sore subject to you for you to attack me so viciously with unjust judgement.

Ephesians 2:8 says -
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Our salvation is not earned but is the gift of God through faith in the complexly finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Like it or not FAITHFULLNESS MATTERS! To say other wise is nothing more than self delusion.

Again I stand beside what I have posted.

Expected Imminently said...

RF
Don't be so silly; goodness what a fuss.

You are saying The Lord is incapable of doing what He says He is doing. Keeping His Church safe from anything that could pull her out of His Hands.

Now THAT is a serious kettle of fish. God say's 'I will keep' and RF says 'oh no you won't'! Isn't that calling God a liar? What would that be, a denial of faith like Peter did? That is a clear case of RF being unfaithful by disbelief.

Fret not, if it was up to you to keep yourself saved, you would now be lost in sin forever. BUT - GOD -remains faithful and point blank refuses to let you out of His grip.

Aren't you glad and praising the Lord for keeping you saved by His wonderous Grace?

Praise the Lord, for his mercy endures forever...

Sue :)





As you are concerned about MY faithfulness, I can assure you there is no need to concern yourself because when I am faithless, He remains faithful.

RF said...

To Brothers and Sisters in Christ who reads this thread. In my previous posts I have pointed out in the following Scriptures –
Hebrews 10:26-31
Hebrews 6:4-8
2 Peter 2:17-22
John 15:1-8
1 Corinthians 15:2
1 Corinthians 9:27
2 Timothy 2:11-13
Mark 13:13
Matthew 10:21-22
Matthew 24:9-13
Revelation 2:8 & 10
Revelation 22:19

Read them for yourself. These are there for a reason like all the Scriptures. To just throw them to the side and ignore them is WRONG! Also read the Scriptures pointed out by the other one on this thread.

Above all Brothers and Sisters in Christ read all the Scriptures for yourself. The teaching of Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James and Jude are the most trustworthy. Beware of all preachers, teachers and churches with their one sided doctrines.

Child of God said...

Hello Father,
Lord God I ask for Your presence here Lord and cover this debate in the blood of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.
Thank you in the powerful name of Jesus Christ I pray amen.

Brothers and sisters in Christ it is wrong to debate the word of God for His word is living and active a double edge blade. Only our Lord, the precious one of God, can judge the soul, it is not our place to judge even when things look very predictable, only God knows the condition of the heart and soul.

Please forgive each other as is right in the Lord.

Peace of Christ rest on you.
<><

Expected Imminently said...

Testing what a person say's of God's word is NOT a personal attack - that is hypersensitive rubbish!

Matt7 tells the Church to judge the words of false prophets. We must contend for the faith!

Removing verses from their context to support a faulty premise, will always result in a pretext.

We are saved by God's Grace, through faith NOT works.
Salvation is past, present and future tense.
It is God who gave us Eternal Life when we first believed.
It is God who is keeping us IN Christ until we die.
After the Bema seat judgment of works, Christ presents us kept whole and perfect by God

To claim a loss of salvation means WORKS have entered through the back door ignoring the FREE GRACE.

At least Rome is upfront about works being essential for salvation.

RF said...

Expected Imminently you said and I quote, "RF Yes you have my dear, you have attacked the character of God and grieved The Holy Spirit."

I have not done any such thing and for you to say that I have is wrong and is without question a personal attack.

RF said...

I am not a false prophet in any way form or fashion. I am innocent of all the things that EI is accusing me of. What I have done is to show from the Scriptures in black and white expressions in no uncertain terms examples such as Hebrews 10:26-29

“26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?”

That puts this extreme once saved always saved viewpoint to the test and IE doesn’t like it. Thusly she has taken it upon herself to infer to me as a false prophet. All these personal attacks against me are unjustified and are not appreciated.

These Scriptures are quite plain in what they say and are not taken out of context to the point that IE accuses me of.

Expected Imminently said...

RF

Small correction.

I am not defending OSAS – that teaches you are saved until you do something wrong, then you are lost again, until you get saved again -----

Salvation by God’s Grace through faith- no works whatsoever equals Eternal Life. THAT is what I am defending that we are kept, by God, eternally secure IN Christ for eternity, NO work's on our part.

IF we love Jesus, we will endeavour to do his will, some won't and will suffer loss at the Bema seat.

I said we are to defend against false prophets and their false out of context teaching. If you have chosen to pick up that cap and put it on your own head - - -!

The Scriptures you have chosen are very plain when they are read within context, and not used to support a false doctrine.

Personal attack? Then why am I not accusing you of the same against me? Because we are contending over the truth of God's Word, and I am a grown up and don't sulk like I used to. :)

RF said...

Yes! Jesus did it all! The thief on the cross next to Jesus at crucifixion asked Christ to remember him in Luke 23:42-43 while he was on a cross himself. This man would die just a couple of hours later and didn’t have time to do anything except to ask Jesus and believe (i.e. have Faith). No works were involved at all for he didn’t have any time left at all to do anything. In fact he couldn’t do anything but hang there. It was all by faith. Jesus Finished Work on the Cross did it all and we can not add anything to it! Jesus is our everything, our only hope!

I am not implying that we earn our salvation in any way. EI you make the point and I quote, “Salvation by God’s Grace through faith- no works whatsoever equals Eternal Life. THAT is what I am defending that we are kept, by God, eternally secure IN Christ for eternity, NO work's on our part.” I am 100% in agreement with that statement. The point I have been making is that this once saved always saved viewpoint taken to a twisted extreme where a person who had been genuinely born again no longer trusts, believes and has faith in Jesus’ finished work like he once did. Then starts publicly denying Jesus’ Divinity and claims His Resurrection is only a myth will be saved without a doubt in reference to the following Scriptures along with the others I have quoted above in this thread. Actually there are many more that could be quoted.

Hebrews 6:4-8 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

They did taste the heavenly gift, share in the Holy Spirit and were enlightened. A person has to be legitimately saved (i.e. born again) in the first place to have had shared in the Holy Spirit.

Part 1 of 2

RF said...

Part 2 of 2
2 Peter 2:20-22
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Well the above states that they did escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Also it says that it had been better for them to have not to have known the way of righteousness in the first place.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

EI it is as you said, “Salvation by God’s Grace through FAITH - no works whatsoever.” FAITH MATTERS!

Consider 1 John 5:16 where John states the following – “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.”

What is this sin that leads to death that is so bad we are not even to pray for the brother or sister who has committed it? Is it what Ananias and Sapphira did as described in Acts 5 in lying to the Spirit of the Lord pushing God’s Grace to the test? Or a similar incident in Leviticus 10 where Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire before the Lord? Maybe but I don’t think so because judgment fell so fast and there was no time to pray of them. Actually I believe it is what is recorded in Hebrews 6:4-8 because it states that – “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, ...” Well that is my take on it anyway.

This is the point that I have been making in reference to this extreme once saved always saved viewpoint.

Expected Imminently said...

RF
I have briefly looked at your latest comments, and on the surface it would appear we have ‘crossed wires’?

Before I properly respond, I am first posting a link in case others are confused.

God willing, I’ll be back! :)

Expected Imminently said...

I have tried to find an article by Dr.Reagan to cover this ‘debate’; but it will have to wait until Nathan can oblige.

Rather than struggle to find and present my old studies on this issue, the following video link will do a far batter job than I could.

http://www.blip.tv/file/2525984

Hebrews10:26-30 no.170

"The Case of No More Sacrifices – The Sherlock Holmes Principle".

Dr.Robert Dean

http://deanbible.org/andromeda.php?q=f&f=%2FAudio+Files%2F2005+-+Hebrews


I can also recommend the following:

‘The Five Warnings of the Book of Hebrews’ Manuscript # 135 by Dr.Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

Can be obtained at:
http://www.ariel.org

The ‘secret’ to understanding that these verses (and others) do NOT teach a loss of Salvation, laHebrews comes as a result of “The failure to understand the implications of the New Covenant”.

(Dr.R.Dean).

Expected Imminently said...

RF said “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, ...” Well that is my take on it anyway”.

Thus far we are in agreement!

The ‘sin unto death’ is a serious issue that is rarely broached, and I concur it is because they were beyond repentance – (a change of mind). The Father will not have His Son’s Blood trifled with; it quenches the Holy Spirit, so physical death is the result.

The Mosaic Law was fragile and temporary – the New Covenant is firm and permanent = ETERNAL.

BELIEVERS were returning to the former Levitical system and, I believe, using pigs blood to prove their rejection of Christ’s atonement?

Conclusion: “The five warnings of Hebrews were addressed to Jewish believers specifically, and the warning was that of physical judgment in this life and loss of rewards in the next. HOWEVER, IT MUST BE EMPHASIZED THAT THERE IS NO THREAT TO ONE’S ETERNAL SECURITY!” (A.Frucht)

That’s where I stand with Eternal Security, while rejecting the yo-yo principle behind OSAS.

I am still cautious RF; I am wondering if you are going to say something about works via ‘evidence’ of a ‘faithful and obedient’ life to prove Salvation in the first place (Lordship Salvation) which I totally reject as a man added work to the free gift of Salvation by FAITH alone.

Sue

RF said...

EI if there is anything I have learned over the past 33 years, it is this. To read the ALL the Scriptures myself over and over again in many different versions and pray for the Lord to open eyes, ears and heart to understand the Scriptures and reveal them to me AND NOT TO RELY ON PREACHERS, TEACHERS OR CHURCHES! In the past I have been mislead by preachers, teachers and churches to the point that I can positively say that they did more harm to my walk with the Lord than the world ever did.

Over the years I have spent time in the Amplified, KJV, NASV and NIV almost on a daily basis for over 30 years. I put that above anything else some preacher, teacher or church teaches.

As far as the points I have made concerning this subject, I stand beside. There are more Scriptures that could have been cited other than the ones I have presented. Also the ones out of Hebrews are not the only ones I quoted to support the point I was making.

Doesn’t Dr. Reagan say something like this? “If as it reads is plain sense and makes sense then anything else is nonsense” I totally agree with that statement. What I have presented on this subject I did so to the best of my ability in handling the Word of God correctly without any kind of skew one way or the other exactly how it reads. No more, no less.

RF said...

EI I just had another thought. First you said, “The ‘sin unto death’ is a serious issue that is rarely broached, and I concur it is because they were beyond repentance – (a change of mind). The Father will not have His Son’s Blood trifled with; it quenches the Holy Spirit, so physical death is the result.”

This is the point I been making all the time with one exception. I highly suspect that it is not only physical death but spiritual death as well. In a person to person case it is only the Lord Jesus who knows the complete truth concerning the individual. I or anyone else cannot and should not try to make such a judgement on another individual’s salvation. However, as far as doctrine goes I would not bet on being ‘saved’ under such circumstances.

Consider this, Romans 10:9 says “ That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

If a person starts out confessing publicly with their mouth “Jesus is Lord” and really believes in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead then without a doubt they will be saved. However, if the same person starts doing the complete opposite by publicly confessing with their mouth “Jesus is NOT Lord” also saying the Virgin birth is nonsense, denying Jesus’ Deity by calling Him a con artist, Jesus’ miracles were and fake and not true. Then also proclaiming and believing that God has not raised Jesus from the dead. Would such a person then be saved? I doubt it very much, very much indeed! In fact I think it is rather obvious what the answer is.

Expected Imminently said...

Rf

The Scriptures you presented are the same that are used by those who claim loss of salvation.

Only 33 years, your a chick :)

While I agree about doing personal study, we are still told to 'test', and that includes ourselves as well as others.

That is why I first came here (well that and a personal hurt) as I have had no 'church' for many, many years (about 25?)longer if I count the faulty ones I attended before 'getting outside the camp' due to apostacy.

I look to Dr. Reagan, Nathan and the other brothers here to 'check me out'. I am no pushover, I have had it too hard - I still test their teaching with prayer and Scripture and sometimes cannot agree, but I put it 'on hold' with The Lord for later correction if needs be.

There is wisdom in many counsellors, that doesn't mean we take ALL the teaching on board, but it does mean we open our heart to correction by the Holy Spirit via checks and balances.

No RF I cannot agree with you on 'spiritual death'; that is no different to a 'work' when it comes down to it! Eternal Life IN Christ cannot die and in any case, the last thing to be destroyed is death itself, when even the lost are resurrected - another subject.

That's me done!
Cheerio!
Sue

RF said...

EI

I’m 33 years in the Lord but I’m 52 years old.

Well we do have some things in common like I’m no pushover either and have had no ‘church’ too for quite a number of years

Your statement on the wisdom of many counselors is sound advice that I agree with but you better be careful who you listen to. Knowing the Word for yourself is crucial in picking out who to lend an ear to.

And of course, as this will come as no surprise, I do not agree with an idea that having faith or not having faith is ‘work’ To me it all hinges on either a person believes and trusts in the Lord’s finished work or they don’t believe and trust. As I see the Scriptures like the ones I posted a person can switch either way either to Him or from Him and there are serious consequences like no longer being ‘saved’ when going from Him. It is all about faith from first to last. But we can agree to disagree.

Well I suppose that’s all folks unless someone else says something.

RF

RF said...

I am just utterly curious to know if anyone else out there has been keeping up with the discussion that EI and I have been having. If you have been would you please just leave a note.

Thanks to all,
RF

Expected Imminently said...

Oops a daisy RF!

"...having faith or not having faith is ‘work’"

Nope, Don't attribute this to me, I didn't say anything of the kind!

If you can lose salvation it means a work is invoved by adding it to faith alone. We cannot earn Salvation by any merit, and we cannot lose it by any demerit. We are no longer our own as we have been crucufied in Christ, we no longer live, but Christ lives in us - sin is no longer an issue.

Saved by God's Grace, through Faith and kept saved by God the same ways declared Justified. Jesus paid the penalty for
ALL sin so salvation isn't ours to lose! Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

52 yrs old! Like I said, you are still a chick :)

RF said...

EI or Sue, I only have one question for you. So I can see if I’m hearing you right. Also this may sound confusing but I’m going to ask it anyway. Are you saying that even the act of having Faith in the completed work of Christ is an act of ‘work’ from ourselves that is being added to the completed work of Christ? Therefore by the act of having Faith on our part, is a work of earning (or meriting if you will) our salvation in Christ and thus making it no longer a free gift?

Expected Imminently said...

RF

No I haven't suggested that faith is a 'work'.

If salvation can be lost, it suggests a work by us is involved instead of Salvation being the entire responsibility of The Lord. He saves us AND keeps us saved, we can do nothing either way.
ALL 'works' of the flesh are burned after the Bema seat judgment.

Sue

RF said...

Your viewpoint expressed throughout this whole thread is very similar to extreme Calvinism that says that we are totally predestined by God to be ‘saved to heaven’ or ‘damned to hell’ and we or not responsible or that our free will is not involved at all in it one way or another.

In response to extreme Calvinism the New Testament has Scriptures that confront this viewpoint like Romans 10:9 – “That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” The words ‘IF YOU’ shows that our choice of freewill is involved.

Then there is the extreme Arminianism viewpoint that says that it is all up to us as to whether or not we accept God’s provision for Salvation through excepting or rejecting Jesus.

In response to extreme Arminianism the New Testament has Scriptures that confront this viewpoint like John 15:16 where Jesus says, “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit...”
or John 6:44 – “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Even thought this might be taken slightly out of context, I think that the principle stated in Ecclesiastes 7:18 does apply - “It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all [extremes].”

Sue, though I see where you are coming from, I find this viewpoint, or teaching, of totally extreme once saved always saved dangerous. Someone could take it to heart and say to themselves that I can do anything I want to even to the point of denying Christ’s Deity & Resurrection, throwing the fear (reverence) of God to the side and I will never loose my salvation. This is dangerous, dangerous indeed in light of just the Scriptures I’ve posted here on this thread. There are others Scriptures too that have not been posted here that could have been included also. In fact too many to post. I don’t recomend doing what I described above. To do so would be taking a risk of the HIGHEST ORDER!

I have made my case and anyone who reads this whole thread will see it if they will just read it.
This will be my last post on debating with you on this subject because to do so would just become a war of words and to indulge in it would be wrong. It would just be I say, then you say. 2 Timothy 2:16 – “Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.”

However if anyone else should post and want me to respond, I may.

Sue you may have the last post on this if you want it. I’ll be back to see what you said.

Take care,
RF

Nathan Jones said...

Wow, 2,000 years later and the brethren are still debating eternal security! God may have allowed this to keep us on our toes.

I tend to believe salvation is always secure in God's promise - John 10:28-30 (NIV) "28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." If we're one of the Lord's sheep, then we'll naturally remain in faith our whole lives and always be secure in our salvation.

In Dr. Reagan's article What Must I Do To Be Saved? he believes the Bible teaches that we can lose that salvation if we stop trusting in Jesus (Gal. 5:4, I Tim. 4:1, and Heb. 6:4-6). It reads:

Rebellious, unrepentant conduct can ultimately lead a person to the point where he, in word or in deed (or both), rejects Jesus as Lord and Savior of his life. Since his acceptance of Jesus is what led to his adoption into the family of God, this subsequent rejection of Jesus will result in his being disinherited from the family. The book of Hebrews teaches this very strongly in the following passages: 2:1-4, 3:12-14, 6:1-8, 10:16-31, and 12:12-17. Another powerful passage that teaches the same principle is 2 Peter 2:20-22 where a person who has come to know the way of righteousness and then decides to return to the world is compared to a dog who returns to its own vomit.

This is not a matter of losing one's salvation one day and regaining it the next. The book of Hebrews says that once a person has "fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame" (Heb. 6:6).

Expected Imminently said...

RF

I repeat, I am not advocating OSAS!
My view is literal Eternal Security.

NO! I am not a Calvanist either - definitely.

I reject your R.C. understanding of Salvation.

I have a view on Dr.Reagans opinion, which I also reject as L.S. who have changed the classical 'KAT' definition of faith. (Still respecting my brother)

Otherwise I shall keep my opinions to myself (unless my Greek improves dramatically) and will stand where Nathan is firmly on John 28:30.

Sue

RF said...

Sue, if you are still there, what does these abbreviations mean?
R.C.
L.S.
KAT

I’m not familiar with them?

Thanks,
RF

Expected Imminently said...

RF said “…Someone could take it to heart and say to themselves that I can do anything I want to even to the point of denying Christ’s Deity & Resurrection, throwing the fear (reverence) of God to the side and I will never loose my salvation. This is dangerous, dangerous indeed…”

This is near word for word what Rome said to Luther when he declared Sola fide. Faith Alone. BELIEVE/faith/trust – ‘pistis’.

KAT ‘Knowledge; Assent; Trust’ is the accurate definition of faith.

R.C. Roman Catholicism which demands works as evidence of salvation.

L.S. ‘Lordship Salvation’ has falsified the interpretation of faith and erroneously added works of ‘obedience and faithfulness’ which has leached out into Evangelicalism bringing it in line with R.C.

L.S. falsely claim two types of faith; ‘ordinary’ and ‘saving’ and misinterpret faith as the gift of God in Eph2:8. Like R.C. they add to Scripture by judging the salvation of others, also demanding works as evidence of salvation. If they do not exhibit (to them) the works of ‘obedience and faithfulness’ in addition to faith, they haven’t ‘lost’ their salvation, they judge that person never saved in the first place. There’s more, but that will do.

Paul’s words on the matter in Romans Chapters 5 – 8.

6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. GOD FORBID. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Sin, the result of Adam’s rebellion has been paid for (which is why we sin). Sin is no longer the issue. In more than 200 verses of Scripture, the ONLY condition for salvation is to BELIEVE/faith/trust – ‘pistis’ in The Gospel message of Jesus Christ. This results in being declared ‘justified’ and Jesus exchanges our un-righteousness for His righteousness. The process of salvation continues through sanctification until death. After the Rapture, we stand before the Bema seat of Christ where WORKS (not sin) is judged and rewards are given or denied.

Well now, keeping my opinons to myself didn't last long, did it!

Nathan is quite right. This is an ongoing ancient dispute that can become very volatile, even nasty; which I did my best to veer away from. This is a blog, not a debating chamber BUT we shall SOON be able to hear Jesus’ verdict on this issue, from his own lips. Until then grace, peace and mercy.

Sue.

Nathan Jones said...

Sue, the depth and breadth of your Bible knowledge never ceases to educate me (I too was wondering about KAT). The people who sat in your chair must of got more than a new hairdo, but a full seminary class as well! :)

I appreciate your's and RF's vast and knowledgeable covering of eternal security. It's amazing how saved believers can mine the Bible and come up with two very different but educated conclusions. Again, I think the Lord leaves us hanging a little on eternal security so that we don't take our salvation for granted.

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan

I think my boy's would agree that I have too much to say. They agreed that if they ever caught Osama Bin Ladin, the worst punishment he could have is locked in a room with just me and my Bible.

I fear I have left a few pastor's speechless.

That's sobering int it. I think I must be what they call 'trying'

:-\

RF said...

I am not debating here but only clarifying a few points here as I see them.

1, Sue you said, "RF... you have attacked the character of God and grieved The Holy Spirit." This was really uncalled for and right off the bat you came against me with a butcher knife, so to speak, This set up an antagonistic environment between us right off the bat, at lest on my end, and from then on I took many things you said as personal attacks. Again I did not attack the character of God and grieve The Holy Spirit and to be accused of such pisses me off to high heaven!

2 Sue you said, “Laura, I totally agree with you!!!” and Laura’s comment was, “I wonder if he was truly saved as a teenager. If so, all his denials of Jesus won't count against him. He's as saved as any other believer is.”

I took you at your word and figured that you were defending OSAS. Laura’s statement has been what I have been talking about this whole time. Also I want to make it clear that I’m not judging or attacking Laura but only her statement or stance.

3 Sue I never meant to come off as accusing you of being a Calvinist. I was only referring to the similarities of a person not having any responsibly at all in the matter.

4 Sue your explanation of Eternal Security is Excellent and I see your point as clear as a bell. However I see my points as clear as a bell too and to ignore them I believe would be an error.


You know I see both Calvinism and Arminianism as clear as a bell also. How can both be true? The finite mind of man can never fully understand the Infinite Mind and Works of GOD. We must remain humble and never think that we have it all figured out. Yep the Lord knows how to keep us humble when we study His Word in depth.


Sue said, “Nathan is quite right. This is an ongoing ancient dispute that can become very volatile, even nasty; which I did my best to veer away from.”
To that I say YES AND AMEN! I did my best too to veer away from it becoming a very volatile, even nasty dispute.


Romans 11:33-36
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34“Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
35“Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?”
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Nathan I think you have hit it. The balance between the extremes by your statement, “Again, I think the Lord leaves us hanging a little on eternal security so that we don't take our salvation for granted.”
Well said Nathan, well said! However I am in total agrement with Dr. Reagan’s teaching on Salvation.

Sue I am totally impressed by your depth of knowledge of Scripture and Theology as well as your passion of Spirit. If I can maintain it with you I can maintain it with anybody.

Sue who is Rome?

Sue next time please don’t come after me right off the bat with a butcher knife.

RF said...

Sue said,
“Sin, the result of Adam’s rebellion has been paid for (which is why we sin). Sin is no longer the issue. In more than 200 verses of Scripture, the ONLY condition for salvation is to BELIEVE/faith/trust – ‘pistis’ in The Gospel message of Jesus Christ. This results in being declared ‘justified’ and Jesus exchanges our un-righteousness for His righteousness. The process of salvation continues through sanctification until death. After the Rapture, we stand before the Bema seat of Christ where WORKS (not sin) is judged and rewards are given or denied.”

I agree with that to the very last letter. It is what I have been stressing all along. The condition of salvation is to BELIEVE.

The point I have been making is that if a person quits BELIEVING then the condition of salvation is no longer met.

I guess I didn’t quite debating after all. It is just that I saw this and couldn’t keep my big mouth shut.

Honestly I don’t mean to keep drawing this out. Sue you make Excellent points. Actually from my point of view we agree more than we disagree.

Expected Imminently said...

RF

The character of God is maligned when He is assumed or accused of being unable or reluctant to do as He has clearly stated He will do. He has said “I” will keep, and then it is said there is something which can be done to prevent what He has clearly said He can and will do. The work of the Holy Spirit is to teach about, and uphold the integrity of The Father and The Son. He is the inspiration behind the inerrant written Word; and like any person is grieved when their sincerity is brought into doubt.

Eph4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, BY WHOM you were SEALED FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

1John5:10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE GOD HAS MADE HIM A LIAR, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11.And this is the testimony: that God has given us ETERNAL LIFE, and this life is in His Son.
12. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have ETERNAL LIFE, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

At this point I would remind you that challenging a believer’s interpretation of Scripture is not a ‘personal attack’.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Now the question is, did you write, or did you not write, that there are Scriptures that deny that there is occasion when eternal life can be forfeited? That is to say, a contradiction of God’s declared intent to keep a person eternally secure. Which suggests that Christ’s blood is insufficient to cleanse from ALL sin?

If I misunderstood your presentation, and you have not made this assertion of calling into question the Trinity’s ability to ‘keep’ a person eternally secure, then of course your study is innocent of grieving the Holy Spirit by doubting His testimony and of maligning God’s perfect character?.

1John1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

P.S. ‘Rome’ is the R.C. Papacy.

It is 1.45 a.m. and I am too tired to do other than to be straight. If this comes across as harsh, it is not my intention. God bless

RF said...

Sue,

I quit here. I'm not going to engage in this anymore.

I've made my stance clear. You or anyone else who reads this long thread can accept it or reject it as you wish.

Lastly, I have not attacked the character of God and grieved The Holy Spirit.

RF

RF said...

Awww heck, what’s wrong with me! I’m so tired of this long, long drawn out debate. But I find myself coming back to it because I seem compelled to even though I really want to quit and even said I was quitting. I don’t want this to become a war of words. A discussion of viewpoints is ok but to have an attitude (either Sue or Myself) of I’m going to win this debate come heaven, hell or high water is selfish and carnal. It then becomes an argument based on the will of the person trying to make a point. Sue, I don’t think you are guilty of that (at least I hope that you’re not) and I don’t believe I am either.


Sue you quoted earlier in the thread 1Peter1:3

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4. to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5. who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

And you are right for doing so because it is in the whole counsel of the Written Word of God. The Scriptures I have quoted I am right also to post because it is in the whole counsel of the Written Word of God.

I see your point “...KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD...” Actually I have never really seen it to that extent before until now that you have brought that to my attention. Yes it is the Word of God, AMEN & AMEN! This is extremely comforting! Praise be to the Most High in the Name of Jesus Christ (Yashua the Messiah) our Wonderful Savior!

However, here again it is a matter of extremes. To only go by this Scripture and other’s like it, as you have pointed out, without considering the other Scriptures such as I have pointed out is wrong. It is also wrong to do the opposite too. By only going by the Scriptures I have pointed out, without considering the other Scriptures such as you I have pointed out. Sorry if I appeared to you coming on here presenting a lop sided view because I was confronting a lop sided view to begin with.

Yep, In my opinion going too far one way or another is wrong. And yes I still do stand beside all the things I have posted on this thread to the very last letter. I have not moved off of it one bit but I do see something new that I never really seen or considered before to a new extent of understanding.

Oh goodness I hope that we can end this soon because I’m getting tired of it. But I will say this, I’m glad that this debate happened because it brought to my attention something else to stand in AWE of concerning the Most High and His Word.

This subject is very similar in terms of mystery in the debate between Calvinism (predestination only) and Arminianism (our freewill only).

RF

Expected Imminently said...

AF. Preped the following before seeing your post. 
Part 1)
Salvation through the un-conditional New Covenant cannot be lost, it is God’s responsibility ONLY to keep it; man cannot break the N.C. which is why salvation is eternal. Akin to the Abrahamic Covenant - Faith only. Genesis 12:1-3,7; 13:14-17; 15:1-21; 17:1-21; 22:15-18.
Selection from the New Covenant teaching.

The Types of Covenants
There are two types of covenants in the Bible: conditional and unconditional. It is important to distinguish between these two types of covenants in order to have a clear picture of what the Bible teaches.

1. Conditional Covenants
A conditional covenant is a bilateral covenant in which a proposal of God to man is characterized by the formula: if you will, then I will, whereby God promises to grant special blessings to man providing man fulfills certain conditions contained in the covenant. Man's failure to do so often results in punishment. Thus one's response to the covenant agreement brings either blessings or cursings. The blessings are secured by obedience and man must meet his conditions before God will meet His.

Two of the eight covenants of the Bible are conditional: the Edenic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant.

2. Unconditional Covenants
“An unconditional covenant is a unilateral covenant and is a sovereign act of God whereby He unconditionally obligates Himself to bring to pass definite blessings and conditions for the covenanted people. This covenant is characterized by the formula: I will, which declares God's determination to do as He promises. Blessings are secured by the grace of God. There may be conditions in the covenant by which God requests the covenanted one to fulfill out of gratitude, but they are not themselves the basis of God's fulfilling His promises.

Six of the eight covenants are unconditional: the Adamic Covenant, the Noahic Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Palestinian or Land Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant…”
IV. The New Covenant
The content of the New Covenant is recorded in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Cont.

Expected Imminently said...

Part 2.
A. The Participants in the Covenant
“This covenant made between God and Israel receives further confirmation in other passages including: Isaiah 55:3;59:21;61:8-9; Jeremiah 32:40; Ezekiel 16:60; 34:25-31; 37:26-28; and Romans 11:26-27. ..”

B. The Provisions of the Covenant
“From the original covenant and its various confirmations, a total of eight provisions can be found. First, it is an unconditional covenant involving God and both houses of Israel (Jer. 31:31). Hence, it includes the entire Jewish nation: the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Secondly, it is clearly distinct from the Mosaic Covenant (Jer. 31:32). It is not merely a further elaboration of the Mosaic Covenant, but it is distinct from it. It is ultimately to replace the Mosaic Covenant, which was now considered broken.… The importance of the New Covenant is that it amplifies the blessing aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant, especially in relationship to salvation. …”
C. The Relationship of the Church to the New Covenant
“At this point some confusion has arisen as to the relationship of the Church to the New Covenant, because, according to Jeremiah, the covenant is made, not with the Church, but with Israel. Nevertheless, a number of Scriptures connect the New Covenant with the Church (Mat. 26:28;”

D. The Beneficiaries of the Covenant
The relationship of the Church to the New Covenant is the same as the relationship of the Church to the Covenants. The spiritual blessing aspect amplified by the New Covenant was to include the Gentiles. The Church is enjoying the spiritual blessings of these covenants, not the material and physical benefits. The physical promises still belong to Israel and will be fulfilled exclusively with Israel, especially those involving the Land. However, all spiritual benefits are now being shared by the Church. This is the relationship of the Church to these four unconditional covenants between God and Israel...”

http://arielministries.us/dcs.htm

Dr.A.G. Fruchtenbaum

Discipleship ‘Come and See’ ‘The Eight Covenants of the Bible’ onsite audio or manuscript.

Expected Imminently said...

AF :)

What Calvinism and Arminianism BOTH miss is an true understanding of the depths of sin (the depraviry of man) and the monumental fact of God's GRACE that is given unstintingly and freely because of his love for the WHOLE world, not willing that any should perish.

GRACE does not mean that people 'get away with it', NO! Jesus chose to take ALL sin onto Himself past, present AND future.

As with Abraham who just BELIEVED God, it was counted to him as righteousness. The Covenant was cut, and while Abraham slept deeply (doing nothing) the Shekinah of God passed between the two pieces of the sacrifice. God swore by Himself to keep it. It did not depend upon Abraham in any way, shape or form.

I am not tired of this subject; but I am physically exhausted by it. The Lord has given you loads to consider before Him. He wants everyone to 'get it'; its all down to His free gift of GRACE; GRACE; GRACE!

God bless
Sue

RF said...

Well Sue, I am worn out to the bone over this. My stance has been and still is the whole Word of God in its entirety and everything I have written on this thread I stand beside to the very last letter. I have been mislead by the writings of men before and their take on the Scriptures. I’m not saying that this Dr.A.G. Fruchtenbaum, whoever he is, is right or wrong. I did read over the post that you sent. But I am totally convinced that the Lord Himself is the only one who opens the eyes of his children to understand the Scriptures and only He can do that. This is found in Luke chapter 24 where he appeared unto his disciples Luke 24:45 – “Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.”
I put what the Lord allows me to see in the Scriptures themselves above everything else and not in what you or anyone else proclaims. Think of me as you wish, whether you think I’m wrong or right, it doesn’t matter to me.

Right now I am not willing to go into this man’s teaching. Maybe later but not now. I am terrified of opening myself up to just any man’s teaching because I know the consequences can be detrimental. Again I’m not saying that he is right or wrong or that you are right or wrong to follow it. But it does seem to me that you place a lot of your stance on this teaching.

Sue you said,
“As with Abraham who just BELIEVED God, it was counted to him as righteousness. The Covenant was cut, and while Abraham slept deeply (doing nothing) the Shekinah of God passed between the two pieces of the sacrifice. God swore by Himself to keep it. It did not depend upon Abraham in any way, shape or form.”

I see that. That is very good, very good indeed. Yet if Abraham had not believed, would it have happened? I think not. And as for as Abraham goes he is an example of those who BELIEVE (Faith) and never quit BELIEVING (Having Faith, Being Faithful). Abraham is not an example of those who quit BELIEVING GOD. There are those who, sad to say, started out BELIEVEING GOD (Having Faith) but later QUIT BELIEVING GOD (Not Having Faith, Not being Faithful). Having FAITH (Believing) and remain being FAITHFUL (Continuing in Believing) MATTERS!

So you are screaming its “GOD’S GRACE, GRACE, GRACE” and I am screaming “WE MUST HAVE FAITH, FAITH, FAITH” In the end it is both.

You have your convictions and I have my convictions.
You stand before the Lord and not before me as being Judged concerning your heart. I stand before the Lord and not before you as being Judged concerning my heart.
And this debate can go on for another 2000 years easy.

God Bless,
RF

Expected Imminently said...

RF said "...This is found in Luke chapter 24 where he appeared unto his disciples Luke 24:45 – “Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.”

The thing is RF, the Jewish Scriptures were already known to the Jewish disciples, Jesus made the difference for them to make the connection. You cannot understand what you do not already know. A.F. (Messianic Jew)is just one of the Lord’s ways of aiding Gentiles to know the Jewish Scriptures in the first place, then He will help them to also make the connection.

Sole Fide
Every blessing
Sue

RF said...

Sue said, “The thing is RF, the Jewish Scriptures were already known to the Jewish disciples, Jesus made the difference for them to make the connection. You cannot understand what you do not already know. A.F. (Messianic Jew)is just one of the Lord’s ways of aiding Gentiles to know the Jewish Scriptures in the first place, then He will help them to also make the connection.”

I concur totally. Only in Christ is the Veil taken away
2 Corinthians 3: 14-17
14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

I would also add that Luke 24:45 it is also true for the Gentile believer, of which I am, even when he or she is totally alone.

So are we done? I know that I am. I think I have exhausted my stamina to the point to where I don’t have much else to say.

All of this has been very interesting. Like you, I’m not tired of the subject but all of this has physically drained me.

RF

P. S. I suppose that A.F. = Messianic Jew, right?

Nathan Jones said...

Ding, ding, ding! Round 10 is over. And, the winner is... we are! How very educational this discussion has been. Give a hand to our two boxers - E.I. and RF - who now lay exhausted and panting on the mat. They donned the gloves of a 2,000 year old boxing match and ended as these matches always do - in a tie.

Sooooo, about Vendyl Jones... :)

RF said...

Oh Nathan, thats a good one!

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan :D

RF Mines pink, what colour is yours?

Sue :)

RF said...

Sue I had to give it some thought. I suppose it would have to be a bluish deep purple.

Expected Imminently said...

Nathan and RF
I just went to have my night-time meds and realised that I have had three days of morning meds both morning AND night on the trot and not had my night-time meds for two nights. NO wonder I was feeling weird. I have over-dosed and under-dosed all at the same time. Oops!

Nathan Jones said...

That's awful, Sue! Glad you're okay.

RF said...

Sue, I’m sorry to hear about that. We all face something it seems, myself included. (if you only knew)

I will share one thing that I have picked up as a result of personal study that really has caught my attention now for over a year or more. It is my theme Scripture of sorts.

1 Peter 1:13 - Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; ,set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed

Oh how I yearn for the Lord’s return. That is where I have fully set my hope!

BTW if anyone hasn’t ever tried this before, I’ll pass this along for you to look at. I really like it. http://biblos.com/

Take care Nathan and Sue,
RF a.k.a. Randy (Sue that is my real first name. Nathan already knows this.)

Rodney said...

Those that are saved will be men and women of faith, filled with the Spirit, those that do not abide in the Spirit are not of the Lord. Not everyone that names the name of the Lord is saved, salvation is dependent of faith and is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

If a supposed believer does not exhibit the power of the Holy Spirit in transforming their lives and bearing the Fruits of the Spirit, then they are a barren tree ready to be cut down and burned. Without the power of the Holy Spirit exibited in the Church in the form of the Gifts of the Spirit, the Church is dead and so are the works thereof. They possess a form of godliness yet deny the power thereof.

When we read the Parable of the Talents as told by the Lord we discover that there are 3 servants mentioned, yet only two were found to be good and faithful. The other servant was identified as wicked and slothful or lazy and was sent to outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Those that will not allow the Holy Spirit to use them as a vessel for reaching the lost, and hide their witness as being ashamed are not of Christ.

The Lord created the Church to testify of his love and his glory, if we do not go forth in the power of the Holy Spirit, this message will not be received. The Power of the Holy Spirit is not in a emotional feeling, it requires action. The Church in America will endure no persecution simply because there remains no evidence that the Church in this nation is a Church of God, it is absent of power, faith, and the desire for the lost. It loves those that love them as even the hypocrites do also.

All the efforts of this Church are reserved for its perspective members, yet those outside its walls are not worthy of such privelege. We do not have Churches in America we have country clubs.

Talia said...

Rodney, the Holy Spirit's power is not always demonstrated in a showy way. Not all of His gifts are easy to see.
I reject your insinuation that the entire American church is corrupt. (Is much of it so? Yes, but do not forget there are faithful congregations still.) We just hear more about the rotten ones because they are bigger and more prevalent.

Rodney said...

Where then are the faithful? If it were true, then its influence would be known. An assembly such as this would exist as a lighthouse on the shore of a roaring and dark sea. In America we have Churches that are charitable organizations and we say that it is evidence of our Holiness and righteousness, yet even secular society does this. Churches give yet are not required to pay taxes, which is a clear violation of the commandment of our Lord to "render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasar's, unto God what is God's".

Nathan Jones said...

You have to look outside of North America and Europe, Rodney. The world is on fire for Jesus and the Gospel is making great advances daily. Sounds like you belong on the mission field where all the action is at, brother.

Rodney said...

Nathan, I pray that is my calling, yet I so much want to see restoration even in the place I choose to fellowship. I agree with your point above for where there is persecution, there is also growth. If we as believers operate according to the scripture in the power of the Holy Spirit, we will be persecuted, for we will be hated of the world, even as they have hated and despised our Lord. Blessings to you Nathan.

RF said...

Hello All,
I’m not here to try and start another boxing match. However, I would like to share my viewpoint on where works fit into all of this. Sue pointed out earlier, and she was right to do so, in this thread about the believer’s works being judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ of those who, as I stressed, never quit believing. Reference - 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

In the below passage Peter instructs us to add to our faith the following works - goodness, knowledge (I believe this is knowledge of God’s Word), self-control, perseverance, Godliness, brotherly kindness and Love. Why? To make your calling and election sure!
2 Peter 1:3-11
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Paul says in Philippians 3:12-16
“12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. 15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

The point here is in my mind is for us individually as REAL Born Again believers to live up to what we know from the Scriptures at the moment. That is in the right now, as to whenever you may read this. It is a maturing process. Remember 1 Peter 2:2 Let us not think any less of our REAL brothers and sisters in Christ who may not share our views at the moment. I am not saying that we should accept false brethren and not view them for what they are. You will know them by their fruits Matthew 7:15-20 This passage is where Jesus is taking about false prophets, however I believe this also applies to false brethren.

This is where I think works fit into the equation and how we should view our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Well I’m not going to monitor this thread like I have been doing. But I will check on it from time to time.

May God bless all of You,
Randy

Expected Imminently said...

RFsaid"...of those who, as I stressed, never quit believing..."

Which verse do you mean about 'never quit believing' i.e. where is this condition given - as a sin that is not atoned for?

Nothing else, just that bit please.
Thanks
Sue

Talia said...

According to your view on things, then I'm lost without hope. I was saved as a little girl and then some terrible things happened in middle school. Our church went through a nasty split and a friend was abusing me. Not just emotionally, but she pressured me into doing things with her that were wrong. (She kissed me is the mildest. So, yes, I'm confessing to having struggled with same sex attraction because of what happened.) Because of that, I went through a phase where I lost faith and was led astray by what they were teaching in school. I never quit believing entirely, but I definitely was very New Agey for awhile. Then in senior year of high school someone recommended that I read the Left Behind books, which woke me up to the times we're living in and God drew me back through that. I've had a couple other patches where I got off track, but He's brought me back from them too. I just don't believe you can be lost again once you have really believed. Why else would He bother to have called me to return and repent if I'm only going to Hell now?
(Sorry, I know I'm probably going to be flamed to death for this, but I had to post on it.)

RF said...

Hello Sue, I have done my best to express this though out this entire thread to the best of my ability. Please re-read it and maybe you can see where I am coming from. I’m not asking you to accept it. You must stay true to your convictions as I have to stay true to my convictions. As I see it there is only one way a person can loose their salvation. In essence it is exactly what Dr. Reagan teaches. An outright rebellion against God and the Lord Jesus Christ. An outright change of allegiance. I think the book of Jude covers it too.

Sue I what to thank you for the debate. I had fairly much rejected the notion of Eternal Security or this one saved always saved doctrine without an in-depth study into it. I see it now and it brings GREAT PEACE! However I see what I have been stressing too and will not be pried from it. Any born again believer better not put the Lord to the test and use this as a license for sinning as they wish. Oh and BTW I plan to look into the covenant aspects you brought up when I feel up to it, but that will have to be later. And I also loved the Abraham sleeping story you brought up. Well said, and I see your point but please look up and re-read what I had to say about Abraham. He is an example of believing and later never quit believing though he may have faltered and doubted, you know the Hagar and Ishmael thing, but he never changed his allegiance.

Now to answer your question, “Which verse do you mean about 'never quit believing' i.e. where is this condition given”
As far as I know there isn’t an outright Scripture that says that word for word. However from all the Scriptures I have quoted on this thread and the Book of Jude sure implies it. You may reject this and it is not my intention to make you see it, but I see it and stand beside it.

As Nathan said... “I appreciate your's and RF's vast and knowledgeable covering of eternal security. It's amazing how saved believers can mine the Bible and come up with two very different but educated conclusions. Again, I think the Lord leaves us hanging a little on eternal security so that we don't take our salvation for granted.”

WELL SAID NATHAN! WELL SAID!

Take care and blessings to you Sue,
Randy

RF said...

Hello Talia,

Thank you for your comment and I see where you are coming from.

This subject is real MEAT OF THE SCRIPTURES not MILK OF THE SCRIRTURES discussion and can tear up a young believer. I know that to be true from my on early infant days in Christ. I’m so sorry that you had to see it before you were ready for it.

I don’t see where you have done anything more than what I or another Born Again Believer has done during their walk with the Lord. Falling away or back sliding (as some call it) is not the outright rebellion I’ve been talking about.

Talia you won’t get any judgement from me. And if I have hurt you in anyway it has never been my intention. I am so sorry that you have been distressed by all of this. Believe me I have been right where you are now in the past over the predestination / freewill thing. It tore me up big time. But the Lord got me through it and He will get you through what you are going through too.

Take care,
Randy

Nathan Jones said...

Thank you for sharing your testimony, Talia! It reminded me of 1 Corinthians 6:9-11:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Corinth was a seaport town that was so notorious a harbor for lonely sailors that to fornicate was called in the Greek world to "corinthianize." And yet, God wanted those people as part of His Bride the Church. The key "that is what some of you were" always touches me, for it demonstrates God's great love.

What RF I believe is talking about is to totally and utterly reject one's belief in God for the long haul. We all come in and out of sin, and if that is what would make us lose our salvation then it'd be like flipping a light switch off and on repetitively. Not the case, if we are one of God's children, then we are His forever and nothing can snatch us away from our Heavenly Father's love, salvation and eternal life (Jn. 10:28-30). That's the crucial difference.

RF said...

Nathan said,
“What RF I believe is talking about is to totally and utterly reject one's belief in God for the long haul.”

Yes Nathan, that is exactly what I am saying to the very last letter! I should have expressed that aspect more but didn’t. Thank you for bringing that out. I guess that I just assumed that everyone else knew what I was thinking. I sorry that I didn’t express that aspect more clearly.


And the rest of Nathan’s statement,
“We all come in and out of sin, and if that is what would make us lose our salvation then it'd be like flipping a light switch off and on repetitively. Not the case, if we are one of God's children, then we are His forever and nothing can snatch us away from our Heavenly Father's love, salvation and eternal life (Jn. 10:28-30). That's the crucial difference.”

YES, YES, YES NATHAN.

Thank you so much Nathan!
Randy

Expected Imminently said...

Talia

Come ere and give EI a cuddle :)

When you first believed in Jesus YOU Talia were 'crucified in Christ' Talia no longer lives, but Christ lives in Talia. Gal2:20,21. Consider your POSITION in Christ.

I am not good at sums, but I think I am right in saying that it’s around 39 things that happened to you at that moment of belief when you trusted Jesus to save you from sin.
In order to ‘lose’ eternal life’, you have to be stronger, greater than God. Each one of these 39 changes would have to be unpicked and unravelled from the Body of Christ, who is The Head of the Body. God cannot deny Himself, He promised to keep you, so to do otherwise means he has to deny Himself. The moment you were saved, the Holy Spirit baptized you into Christ, where you are now IN Him seated in heavenly places. That’s where your citizenship is, you are no longer an ‘earthdweller’.

Remember doubting Thomas?
John20:27.’Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. DO NOT BE UNBELIEVING, BUT BELIEVING’.

The day is coming when all, doubting believers, tossed and swamped by waves of unbelief and denial will do as Thomas did. Vs.28 “And Thomas answered and said to Him, "MY LORD AND MY GOD". All the works done in unbelief will be burned on the fire while the reward of free salvation will remain secure.

God bless you my sister.
Sue
x

RF said...

I even have more thoughts on this subject but I'm now afraid to post them.

Randy

RF said...

By the way Talia,

I am sorry that I refered to you as a young believer or infant in Christ. I don’t know if you are or not. I repent of that assumpion and please forgive me for doing so.

Take care,
Randy

DrNofog said...

As the dust settles to the ground..."Hey, did I miss anything?"

Sorry, I was off-world and didn't see this right away.

I thot I would have to chime in and side with EI on this one.

My understanding is that it is a common misunderstanding of Hebrews in trying to prove that one can lose salvation.

It is in not noting the clear use of the terms, "Us" vs. "Them", Saved vs. Lost, a clear theme throughout the Scriptures.

"They" turned back, short of salvation, doubting the veracity of God's Word, because "they" were never of "us"!!

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that ye have eternal life..." 1 John 5:13

There can be NO DOUBT that it is eternal, that we have it, that it can in NO WAY ever be removed from us, that it is past-tense [John 5:24], and that it was concluded a done deal before the foundation of the world!

[...not that I'm real adamant about thing...]
;D

Expected Imminently said...

DrNofog
Thar yar! :D

Common error in interpreting the Bible

In general there are two major types of error made in interpreting a verse of the Bible, which can overlap. Either the verse or passage is misapplied, that it actually has another subject in view altogether, or the verse is removed from its context, so that its meaning is distorted.

In the case of Eternal Salvation people often quote a scripture that is not about salvation at all, and try to prove that we can lose salvation. Eg they make reference to Paul saying that we can fall from Grace and they take this to mean a loss of salvation. Eg they quote Galatians 5:4

It is true, we can ‘fall from grace’ but this verse is not talking about salvation at all. The quoted phrase comes from the end of the passage about how to live the Christian life.

The word ‘saved or salvation’ sozo when used has a wider meaning than to be ‘saved from sin’ only the context can determine what sozo is refered to. Too often a passage is dealing with the fruit of a Christians life, or about the judgment of a believers works, but thet mis-apply them to mean salvation from sin.

My late Bible teacher used to say that Jesus loves us so much, that if he wasn’t confident The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit could KEEP a person saved, then God would end our lives immediately to keep us from taking ourselves out –tongue in cheek, of course, but it demonstrates the veracity of God’s Lord for the saved sinner.

I like this following quote. "A farmer may keep chickens in order to produce eggs. If he grades the eggs (works) he is not grading the chickens. Similarly, someone may grow vines to produce grapes. Judging the quality of the grape is not the same as judging the vine. In the same way, God may judge the works and the fruit of a believer’s life, but this is completely different from His judging the believer himself.

Sue

RF said...

Hello DrNofog and welcome to the 2000 yr. old debate as Nathan pointed out. It is old as the “predestination” verses “freewill” debate. Actually to me it is just about the same thing, just in a different aspect.

As I see it, and I’m not picking a new boxing match with you because I’m just not up to it, there is another way interpret your statement.

You said...
"They" turned back, short of salvation, doubting the veracity of God's Word, because "they" were never of "us"!!

And yes it can mean just that, however in my mind it can also mean -
"They" turned back for the long haul after obtaining salvation, (as many Scriptures that I quoted above shows, at least to me anyway) because "they" are not one of "us who stay in it for the long haul"!!

You know I could have brought up Romans 11:17-23 in this long debate too but didn’t think to do so.

And for what it is worth I don’t think just anybody can loose their salvation. Certain criteria must be met that’s laid out in Hebrews 6:4-6 like,
1 once been enlightened
2 tasted the heavenly gift
3 shared in the Holy Spirit
4 tasted the goodness of the Word of God & the powers of the coming age
It sounds to me like a mature believer, not a young immature believer, and that makes turning back for the long haul even that more hideous.
Well that is my take on it anyway.

It has never been my intention to come here and cause division or set Brother or Sister against any other Brother or Sister or cause distress to anyone. I just happen again to just poke my head in the room, so to speak, and found something going on and just couldn’t keep my big mouth shut. I really do see Your and Sue’s points. It is just that I see my points too.

In the bottom line, I’m just expressing my viewpoint, that’s all.

May the Lord bless everyone here!
Randy

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Randy

I am off for a long week-end so I can't respond for a while after this.

Randy said
"1 once been enlightened
2 tasted the heavenly gift
3 shared in the Holy Spirit
4 tasted the goodness of the Word of God & the powers of the coming age
It sounds to me like a mature believer, not a young immature believer, and that makes turning back for the long haul even that more hideous.
Well that is my take on it anyway"

IF - and we aren't - responsible for keeping ourselves, it would take a great deal less than your suggestions of how to lose salvation.

I know all the verses you have presented as 'evidence' that suggest's the loss of salvation. Each and every one is a result of missapplication of Scripture and or removal from its context.

When we first 'faithed' In Jesus to deliver us from ALL sin, we were at that moment 'dead to sin'. The new man is incapable of sin. The old sin nature WAS crucified with Christ. The sins of the flesh have ALL been atoned for - yes even turning away from Jesus and denying what you once chose to believe for salvation. NOTHING can separate us from Christ - absolutely NOTHING. Say otherwise and it means God lies!

At the moment of being 'born again' we are made NEW -. our battle with the flesh is the trial of our faith, applying the truth of our position in Christ - or not.
Some will suffer physical death so that their spirit is kept safe. Otherwise it is all dealt with at the Bema.

Sorry its rushed , I am out of time.

God bless.
Sue

Brian GC said...

Great stuff Sue:
Simply put: - if you have been born of the flesh your parents can never deny you as their child. If you have been born of the Spirit, God can never deny you as his child; AND HE WILL TREAT YOU AS ONE.
No matter how you put it, if you need to DO, in any way shape or form to keep your salvation, salvation is of works.

DrNofog said...

RF,

If one properly considers and examines the nature of the 1st sin of the Fall, there is an underlying cause or motivation, as it were, that precedes the desire to "be as gods", and thus leads to the final, overt act of 'disobedience'.

That much should be, and is evident thru-out both history and the Scriptures, although it may not be pointed out so directly.

That "seed" or "set hook" is "The 1st Slanderous Lie" against the character of God in Genesis 3:1,& 5!

"God has 'ulterior motives'"... God is holding out on you!"

It is about doubt!

It has always been about doubting the character; the Goodness, the Intentions, the Honesty, the Truth[fullness], and the Love of God,...
ie...doubting the very Word of God!!! - Even as we say the truth; "A man's word is his bond"!

Doubt leads into a confusing morass that only gets progressively worse.

And, of course, Satan is the one who attempts to destroy the "CONFIDENCE" we should have in the "Trustworthiness" of His W-O-R-D!!!

In understanding "Eternal Security" [I deny both "issue" & "debate"], of which I say again "There can be NO DOUBT, because it is The Key of so many clear verses, which condition other verses in such a way as to require a full re-examination of their context... [...just a few]:

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23

Never makes it both emphatic and clear that The Lord NEVER had ANY kind of "I once knew you, but now I don't." relationship!

Could??... Should anyone "doubt" that His Words could mean anything less than what they mean about this?!?

"They" were NOT "of us"!!

"38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor... things present..., nor... things to come...,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 8:38-39

If His UNDOUBTABLE Word means anything to anyone, it is UNDOUBTABLy clear that NOTHING... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any Redeemed person's PRESENT or FUTURE..., - NO Satanic temptation, or delusion, nor any internal struggle or "doubt" can overturn His "so great salvation"!

DrNofog said...

Do you "doubt" His Words could possibly mean any less than what they CLEARLY mean about that?

It is, and clearly, always has been about doubting the clear and unmistakable meaning of His Words because of "fearful" doubt!!!

And then again, in so, so many epistles, WE have the "sure words" of encouragement "we ARE SAVED" [always a deliberate past tense, an UN-Do-able, already 'done-deal']!!!

The truthfulness of those "Words of God" become ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS once DOUBT, in any way, enters in and questions the issue.

Is this not a "prophetic" cyclical repeat of Genesis 3, as many Biblical scholars have noted... - the "doubting" of the truthfulness... the "meaning"?!?

How else are we to "know", and have any "CONFIDENCE" of soul in His "so great salvation" if "we", not "them" can, after truly "calling upon the Lord", cannot be transported across any temporal doubtings of our circumstances???

Again, do you "doubt" His Words mean anything less than what they do mean about this?

If we have the "Seal", the "Ephesians 1:13-14" 10% traditional "Security Promise" of the Holy Spirit of our Redemption:

"13 In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 Who is the earnest [irrevocable down payment, ie. 10% Down payment that is lost upon welshing on a purchase] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory..."

...How could any, after 1st "...calling upon the Lord", and being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit, then "lose" their salvation, in spite of the "Promise"?!?

By the strict meaning of words, that forfeited 10% "sealed" portion of the Holy Spirit of each "fallen" believer would also then be consigned to eternal hell!

That IS DOUBT!!
That IS DOUBT of the clear meaning of His Words!!!

[Ephesians is a tuff read if you don't believe in some level of predestination...]

----

My suggestion:
....
1st Prime:

Go back and find "ALL" the Most Emphatic, Absolutely, Un-doubtable Promises in/&/of His Word; such as:

Joel 2:32 "...that whosoever shall call on the name of YHVH shall be delivered...,
---,
2 Peter 3:9 "...not willing that any should perish..."
And,
The above select mentioned verses...

...simply "cut & dried", and then, and only then, re-examine, AND RECONCILE, everything else in that 1st light!

"Losing" salvation does NOT compute in the Word of God!!!

Expected Imminently said...

DrNofog
Well, all I can say is – IF I had any doubts on this subject – I am now persuaded that neither death, nor life, … Nor any other created thing (that’s in case we could manage to dream up something that God hadn’t thought of in this list):)

Brian GC. :) Spot on! Works free and a son is your son, and your dad is your dad, even if the son hates the dad, has his name legally changed, travels to the other side of the world, and has cosmetic surgery to alter a family resemblance. Just to add to this thought; a son by ADOPTION had more legal rights than a natural born son.

Randy :)

I have been away and had another bloke on my mind – YOU! I have been doing a serious swot!

It’s a truth that if we are never challenged upon what we believe, we would let all things wash over us and never feel the need to question anything at all. Just think what we would miss.

Main points concerning misapplying Scripture and context.

Hebrews was written to, go to Temple regularly, Jewish believers in Yeshua as their promised Messiah who thought they could miss the Christian persecution, switch off being ‘born again’; return to Judaism then when the persecution was over, become believers in Messiah and be born again, again.

The writer of Hebrews was saying ‘tough, no can do; saved you were and saved you are and going back to the now defunct Levitical priesthood cannot do anything to save you from PHYSICAL death. There is no longer a sacrifice for them with the sons of Levi God had finished it when THE Lamb of God was sacrificed on Calvary to provide eternal salvation. (Anyway, salvation wasn’t even on offer in the Mosaic system, only a temporal covering that had to be oft repeated.

Historically, AD 70 was just round the corner. Jesus had warned on Olivet it was coming. The Jews who had witnessed the ministry of Yeshua and rejected Him as their Messiah (even though they KNEW He was their Messiah, but didn’t want a ‘suffering servant’ but a mighty man of valour like King David)their rejection of Yeshua meant these Jews had committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This meant they would not only REMAIN spiritually dead, they would also prematurely forfeit their PHYSICAL lives in the coming holocaust of Jerusalem. Believers had already been told by Jesus that when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by an army FLEE Jerusalem (and they did).

These Jewish believers who wanted to escape Christian persecution by leaving The Faith and return to Judaism and the defunct sacrifices, would find themselves PHYSICALLY dying in the destruction of Jerusalem instead.

Conclusion: The writer of Hebrews was dealing with JEWISH believers at a particular point in history when the Temple was still up and running on its last legs. The context was PHYSICAL death, nothing whatsoever to do with spiritual death. Today there is no Temple for Jewish believers to run back to, or its sacrifices, even if they wanted to. I.e. there are no sacrifices anymore and what there were couldn’t save from sin anyway.

Blessed Assurance, Jesus IS thine!

God bless you as you test this.
Sue

DrNofog said...

EI,

Since I used the word, and since yer from that side of the pond...What did the Welsh do, some time in the past I guess, to become such a byword??

...

welshed also welched, welsh·ing also welch·ing;
1. To swindle a person by not paying a debt or wager.
2. To fail to fulfill an obligation.
;)

RF said...

Well I didn’t think I would come back at all, but here I am again. I let this slide for a while till I felt up to reading the latest posts. If anyone thinks that I have tried to intentionally mislead anybody or take Scriptures out of context to promote a faulty premise. Then please do the research and read all that I have quoted in this thread in their entire context to see if I have tried to do such a thing to lead astray deliberately. Please read the whole New Testament completely without rose colored glasses (A term meaning looking at it fresh and anew without preconceived notions on it). And pray for the Lord to open your eyes and heart to understand the Scriptures like Paul prayed in Ephesians 1:17-19 (KJV) “17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,” and Luke 24:45 also.

Really it is everybody’s responsibility to search the Scriptures for themselves 2 Timothy 2:14-19

Sue there is one thing I have to thank you for and that is this. Pointing out 1Peter 1:3-5 where it says, ” ...reserved in heaven for you,5. who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” In fact I have never seen it to depth before and it brings me great comfort that, hey it is not all up to me alone yet it is THROUGH FAITH which implies (TO ME) a responsibility on my part to believe for the long haul. You may reject this but this is how I see it. Yep the ...KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD... is the predestination side (Grace) and the ...THROUGH FAITH... is the freewill side (Believing or Faith) of it. Well that’s how I see it anyway.


When I read Scriptures like 1 Peter 4:18 and Hebrew 10:25-39 I just take it for what it says, no more and no less. It really sounds very serious to me.

1 Peter 4:18 (NIV) And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

1 Peter 4:18 (KJV) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Hebrews 10:35-39
35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,“He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.” 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

And for what it is worth I see and accept both predestination and freewill both at the same time. Some may say of me that I just don’t want to take a stand. But I really do see both predestination and freewill from the Scriptures as I read them. And whether you believe it or not I, Sue I do see where you are coming from. However, I see my points as well because they are in the Scriptures. I can’t deny what I read and see for myself.

All that I know to say is this. Remember the story of Ananias & Sapphira found at Acts 5:1-11 where they conspired to lie to the Spirit of the Lord pushing God’s Grace to the test. I’ve always wondered. What were they thinking, and how could they do this? Well, I think I know now where they MAY have gotten the idea where they could get away with such a thing, by putting Eternal Security to the test. Hey, if anybody does this they are running a risk of the HIGHEST ORDER! I agree with Dr. Reagan’s teaching on salvation that Nathan pointed out. And by the way, I didn’t get it from Dr. Reagan, I got it by reading the Scriptures for myself.

Part 1 of 2

RF said...

Part 2 of 2

I see so many warnings in the New Testament all over the place (that’s my free will side talking). Actually I suppose that I lean more towards the freewill side of things because I can’t comprehend God’s wondrous paths Romans 11:33-36. I can only really function as a human and I don’t think the Most High expects me to comprehend His incomprehensible ways. Remember, you have to come as a child (Mark 10:15), and in my opinion stay as a child (in heart, yet we are to mature in the knowledge of God and His Word.) and work out your own salvation as per Philippians 2:12 And BTW I cannot allow anyone to pressure me to believe the way they want me to.

Sadly most Christians never read God’s Word for themselves thus building wood, hay and stubble on their foundation in Christ. And as Sue has pointed out many times, this will be dealt with at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Some will only make it as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 One reason being, though not the only one, they did not make their calling and election sure 2 Peter 1:3-11

Sue said...
“It’s a truth that if we are never challenged upon what we believe, we would let all things wash over us and never feel the need to question anything at all. Just think what we would miss.”

Well said Sue, I concur totally. Yet we also need to be careful too. I’m a firm believer that all Born Again Children of God should read and study the Scriptures for themselves. To know the Word of God for themselves. I’m REALLY, REALLY BIG ON THIS.


Yeah, to me all this is just another aspect of the predestination vs. freewill debate. Most Christians take one side or the other side without considering the aspects of the other side they don’t accept. It has been very polarizing for many years and still is.

Take Care,
Randy

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Randy
I have written and deleted reams to get to this point. :)

“hey it is not all up to me alone yet it is THROUGH FAITH which implies (TO ME) a responsibility on my part to believe for the long haul.”

I am overjoyed you have been blessed by this truth. There is more!

Hebrews 12:2 “…looking unto Jesus, the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith…”
Philippian1:6”… being confident of this very thing, that He who has BEGUN a good work in you will COMPLETE it until the day of Jesus Christ;…”

The initial act of faith IN Christ, who is the object to which our faith is directed, means you are eternally secure. By heavens court, The Judge has pounded the gavel and declared you to be JUSTIFIED in His sight. You have been debited of your full account of UN-righteousness and it has been placed into Christ’s empty account and credited to Him.

Christ has had His full account of Righteousness debited and it has been credited to your empty account. It isn’t that you have become righteous, rather that you have been DECLARED to be righteous – it is DONE; there is nothing left for you to ‘do’. It is finished – PAID IN FULL.

Being in THE Faith, safe and secure, it is important to GROW in The Faith (or stagnate.)

This calls for the APPLICATION of the Word into every area of life. Never mind what you ‘feel’, the reality is what God has said and done. This is the ‘work’ of faith. It’s application; to accept God’s Word during our lifelong trial through sanctification.

Presently, this is the trial of my faith. I can believe what has been said and done to me; that my whole adult life is a shredded waste and failure.
OR.
I can make my faith ‘work’ by the APPLICATION of God’s Word such as Romans 8 “…And we KNOW that ALL things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” (And I am called, so this means me).

It is a waste to be in The Faith, and not make it ‘work’ by putting God’s Word into all I do; applying it, actually putting my faith into action instead of being apathetic and sorry for myself. This will result in gold, silver and precious stones perfected through the furnace of affliction.

This is what James was trying to tell certain Jewish believers who were being apathetic and not growing up in The Faith producing only perishable acts of hay, wood and stubble.

God bless you, and may He quicken your heart to the knowledge of His incredible Grace

Sue :)

Expected Imminently said...

DrNofog

I don't know?
There has always been some 'banter' between the Welsh and the English. It MAY be connected with the army as the only use of the Welch spelling today is with the 'Royal Welch Fusiliers'. A Welsher is 19th C. of unknown origin and it's my guess it has something to do with rivalry between two regiments of the Welch and an English one e.g. 'The Glorious Glos'ters', maybe?

Borada! :)

DrNofog said...

So now I see it yet here again...

I knew that, as always, if someone blathers long enough the key words would eventually come out and betray them!

"FAITH"!

This is that critical "word" that, in our time, and in our language, has been so diluted, so abused, and misused, as to have lost almost all of its original Biblical import!

Here is that error:

"...it is THROUGH FAITH which implies (TO ME) a responsibility on my part to believe for the long haul..."

Do you note the words "which implies", "a responsibility", "to believe"?!?

The words "Faith" and "believe" have been subverted, and have taken on the pagan, Roman Catholic version of some kind of internal effort of validation!!!

It, "Faith", is not the strength, the quality, a "firm grasp", or a "holding on to", nor the quantity [as tho it can be measured], rather it is the OBJECT of faith that does the so-called "work"...


Christ IS the OBJECT of our faith!


There is Truth!... The Word of God.
And there is that niggling little questioning... that denial of Truth!

It's called "DOUBT"!!! [AKA "unbelief"]

You have the free gift; a fully endorsed Check of "Eternal Life"..., a Draft on The Most Sovereign Bank of the Universe, that was already cashed when you accepted Christ!!!

...and YET... you think there is "a responsibility on my part to "believe" for the long haul...", to do what??...exactly?!?

Does your kind of "faith" make the proceeds of that cashed check any more valid, more "secure"???

That, my friend, IS the definition of W-O-R-K-S!!!

That is "THE" factor that I see this debate...

In another classic example to understand this properly; the elevator.

You can "believe" [as in "understand", in actuality] that it can take you to the top floor all you want, but until you "step in" [faith is also translated "commit" elsewhere], you're not going anywhere.

However, once you do step inside [receive Christ], NO amount of "strength" or "quality" of grunting, groaning, or hoping is going to assist that elevator in getting you to the top!

And, conversely, NO lack of grunting, groaning, or hoping is going to prevent that elevator in getting you to the top!

Christ didn't ask for your "assistance" in making His gift of Life any more or less "Eternal"!


Christ IS Life!

If you have received Him, you have already received "Eternal" Life, and Eternal, by definition, cannot be taken away!

It can't be any other way!

As for Ananias & Sapphira...the Scriptures don't make it clear whether they were truly born-again Christians who committed the "sin unto death" [1 John 5:16], - "...to deliver such...unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved..." [1 Corinthians 5:5], or whether they were simply "Sunday-go-to-meet" social club members.

Either way it's "mox nix" for this issue!

We are back to my premise, Genesis 3, the underlying DOUBT!

You have some little level of doubt, and you're simply searching for some scriptures to validate it.

But, sorry, yer still stuck with "Eternal" life whether or not you fully accept it or not [it's nicer to accept it...]!!

RF said...

Well folks I had been preparing more thoughts on this subject but the bottom line I am being personally attacked for sharing my viewpoints.

I have been accused of doubt by the Dr Nofog...
“You have some little level of doubt, and you're simply searching for some scriptures to validate it.”
That is completely untrue. I’m looking at the whole Word of God not just parts of it through rose colored glasses.

I’m being judged here for the intent of my heart. Romans 14:4

I have decided to not retaliate in kind and it is obvious that there is no fellowship of spirit here for me.

Sue in my mind we agree for more than we disagree. However I still see and hold to everything I pointed out.

Take care, Nathan and Sue, God bless ya,
Randy

LIve In Stereo News said...

If you can lose it you are not saved. You are trying to do it in your own works just as Paul-the apostle to the gentiles, you were told to follow-states directly in Galatians. Quite trying to get doctrine out of books not directly written to the born again Christian in the church age.

Expected Imminently said...

Randy
I appreciate if you have tired of this, so be it.
However you are quite wrong as there has been no personal attack made against you at all, not remotely.

If I was to say:

"Oi, DrNofog, you are a bow legged chicken and a knock kneed hen with the brain of a roasted peanut with knobs on"
THAT would be a personal attack.

Randy please don't be affronted when someone recognises where it is you are missing the point, and wants to help you see what needs to be checked. We NEED to be open to correction. If DrNofog has it wrong, then show him from Scripture WHERE he is wrong.

I have to tell you the name of the worst false teacher I have ever had to deal with - it's ME! The Lord has given His gift of teaching as a blessing to whom He will. Its nothing to be afraid of. I have been hurt and confused by wrong teaching as much as you, and guess what, I have learned some GREAT lessons from it. (Once my wounded pride had subsided)

Up and at em Randy, and God bless.
Sue
x

DrNofog said...

RF,

Don't get yer panties into a bunch! Nobody's personally attacking you [yer not that important yet]... ;)

I've been thru this myself - and... I've seen it a bunch of times since.

Can you deny that Jesus is the Christ? - Not if you have the HS within you!

Do you think that you might possibly stop believing that He is the Christ sometime in the future?

Are you "afraid" that, at sometime in the future, you might discover that you "have believed in vain"?

Do you worry that you will have been, somehow, "disqualified"?

Are you a little "anxious" over the possibility that you could "fall away"?

-
I find that most Christians will think that that might happen to other Christians, but they're pretty sure that they will never stop believing that Jesus is the Christ.

Occasionally, a few will hedge with a little worrisome "Well, I sure hope not..." ["pretty sure" is a little worrisome hedging, too.]

But what about every day life?

Do you get a little bit "anxious" when you have more bills and month left over at the end of a paycheck?

Do you worry, a little bit, that something bad may have happened when your spouse or kids are very late and haven't called?

"...I have been accused of doubt by the Dr Nofog..."

I speak in a general observation of what I have seen in those who have struggled with this issue [before the light finally comes on and they can "rest" in that Eternal Assurance], and was in no way intended to be a "personal attack".

Your response, however, is an "absolute" and is flat-out false!

"...That is completely untrue..."

How so??

All those little "worries" that I was getting at, those daily little "struggles" and "insecurities", that Jesus said not to be "anxious" over, are part of the human condition. They are synonymous with, and have their root in a little thing called... You guess it: "d-o-u-b-t"!

Now if you deny human nature then we will have a problem [and then you can take your ball and go home...].

Try re-reading it again [minus the 2 last sentences, if you wish] to gain the full import of what I am showing.

And don't take yerself so serious next time.

You'll notice that I'm not in the least upset by YOUR accusation that I am selective in reading Scriptures, "...just parts of it..." and see "...through rose colored glasses...".

Learn to laugh at yerself once in a while.
Look, I'm laughing at you right now!
;D

Brian GC said...

RF
When do those who believe in Christ receive eternal life?
If you can lose your salvation by being unfaithful then logic demands that eternal life must be applied only when the believer dies in a condition of faith, for there is always the possibility one might become ‘castaway’ even at the end.
If however you receive eternal life at the moment of belief and subsequent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Born again), it cannot be lost, it is eternal.

Brian GC said...

DrNofog
I may suffer some of your flippancy for this but even though your last comment was generally excellent, you are deserving of rebuke for the several frivolous and offhand remarks you made.

RF has not had the blessed assurance of eternal security and we should not be dismissive but look at ways to shed light on what he, at this stage, cannot see.

You did a good job but spoiled it by those careless flippant comments.

Expected Imminently said...

Brian GC said "When do those who believe in Christ receive eternal life?
If you can lose your salvation by being unfaithful then logic demands that eternal life must be applied only when the believer dies in a condition of faith, for there is always the possibility one might become ‘castaway’ even at the end.
If however you receive eternal life at the moment of belief and subsequent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Born again), it cannot be lost, it is eternal".


I have only just seen this comment; and it is such an important point to make. I assumed everyone realised Eternal Life was given at the moment of re-birth - obvious to me; but on reflection this is not so obvious to those who think Eternal Life (Who is Christ) can be lost in some way, or suddenly become un-deserved by sin (paid for)

GRACE is the answer and a faithful covenant Keeper that admits - 'no you don't deserve it, but YOU are dead and now possess the righteousness of Christ".

Excellent point to emphasis 'DONE' not 'DO'.

By the way, DrNofog isn't being 'flippant', it's just his 'way'. He genuinely cares or he wouldn't bother to try and clarify. Sometimes we all need to 'lighten up' and smile at ourselves and determine not to be so quick at taking offence.

Great comment otherwise, it goes to prove that we are not always on the same wavelength in understanding the language of Scripture.
Thanks for that!
God bless.
Sue :)

Whitey Noyse said...

I was a Noahide for two years, before returning to Christ. It's good to see Jones and the Noahide movement discussed within a proper Christian context.