Tuesday, April 12, 2011

FHCO: Your Future in the Tribulation (Part 2)

Future Hope Conference Online
Your Future in the:
Bible - Tribulation - Rapture - Millennial Kingdom - Heaven - Q&A


Don Perkins
Don Perkins
Founder and Director
According to Prophecy Ministries


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The Church Not Appointed to Wrath

The hope the Church has in not having to endure the coming seven year Tribulation and all its awful judgments gets even better, because on the tail end of the Tribulation period after the Second Coming of Christ we will go into what's called the Millennial Kingdom. Not only will the Church experience this wonderful Millennial Kingdom, but also the nation of Israel will continue to exist nationally. Israel will literally receive everything that God promised them as far as land and other different blessings. Israel will experience the fullness of their blessing.

Again, the Church has not been called to this time of wrath. I want to give you a few verses along the way just to reiterate the fact that again our blessed hope is in Christ. The time of the Rapture is an event that will literally remove the Church out of the way in order for the Tribulation to come in.

I must say one other thing now before going on. I have heard people say, "Brother Perkins, you guys who hold a Pre-Trib view, you guys want to be raptured because you are afraid of the Antichrist and you are afraid of judgment." Well, that's not the case. Based on Scripture, that dispensation or time of wrath has not been called to the Church. The Church has not been called to this time of wrath and we'll see that as we go on further.

Quoting Romans 5:9, the apostle Paul wrote, "We shall be saved from wrath through Him." We will be saved from this wrath through Christ, this wrath that is to come. The Church will be saved from it. We have been delivered from it. We are not called to live through wrath.

In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul wrote, "Even Jesus which delivered us from the wrath to come." The Bible says we are waiting for Jesus from Heaven who delivers us from the wrath to come. Our Savior has already done it! We have been delivered from this time of judgment that is to come.

Luke 21:36 says, "Watch you therefore and pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." Here he says may you pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape. This is an event that is not ordained for the Church. The Tribulation, persecution by the Antichrist, and the events of this coming era are not events that are ordained for the Church.

I want to give you a few more here. Revelation 3:10 gives a promise to the Church. Jesus says in verse 10, "Because though hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." This is a promise to the Church. If you overcome, He said, I will keep you from the hour that is to come, this hour of Tribulation, this hour of temptation that is to come.

First Thessalonians 5:9 says, "For God have not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." Because of what Christ has done at Calvary's cross, today we have been delivered. We have not been appointed to this time. That word "appointed" is key, because what we are going to see is that the Tribulation is an appointment for the House of Israel. The Tribulation period is a season, it is time frame that began in the Old Testament. It is prophecy that is literally millennia old since God prophesied to the prophet Daniel that Israel will go through a season of test. God would take them through the 70 week judgment. And again, the end result of that will literally be the salvation of Israel.


What are some names for the Tribulation?

Now, let's go a little bit further. What I want to do here is give you some names for the Tribulation. I'm also going to give you a few Scriptures, and as we look at them it is going to give us a little bit of a clearer idea as to what this Tribulation period is.

The first name I want to give you is found in the book of Daniel 12:1, "And there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to the same time." Here it is called "a time of trouble." Daniel prophesied that there is coming a time upon the House of Israel where they will experience major, major trouble.

Another one is Matthew 24:21, "For then shall be great tribulation, for such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall ever be." We can find this term in Revelation 2:22 and Revelation 7:14. These are the only times we literally find the term Tribulation or Great Tribulation mentioned. Here Jesus called it "Great Tribulation." Again, it is an event that will be like none other.

Another name can be found in Jeremiah 30:7, "Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble." Focus on this, "but he shall be saved out of it." So, another name for the Tribulation is "the time of Jacob's trouble." We already know the name Jacob literally is Israel, so Jeremiah is saying the time of Israel's trouble. And again, Israel is really the key to understanding the Great Tribulation, because it is a time that has been ordained specifically for the House of Israel.

There is a name in Revelation 6:16. This is given during the Seal Judgments. The Bible tells us in verse 16, "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb." This reference occurs during the first six Seal Judgments of the Great Tribulation. Here it is called "the wrath of the Lamb."

On a side note, there is some debate from people who believe a view they call the Pre-Wrath Rapture. They believe that the Church will be raptured three-quarters of the way into the Tribulation. They believe that the wrath of God does not come into the Tribulation until we are three-quarters in. They believe that the first half of the Tribulation is the wrath of man, and the second half is the wrath of God. But, Revelation 6 actually begins the Great Tribulation because here we see it being called "the wrath of the Lamb." I'll show you as we go on that as the 3 1/2 years going into the Tribulation are crossed, it gets worse. We do know that, that it gets worse and the judgments intensify. But, at the beginning of the Tribulation, it is still the wrath of God. It is clearly called "the wrath of the Lamb."

I'm going to give you one more name, and it's in Revelation 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation." And so, we have different names in the Scriptures given to the Tribulation that identifies this period of time. The time is an hour of great test and toil upon the people who have rejected God.


69 comments:

Anonymous said...

Nathan,

Why do you continue to be dishonest about prewrath? You said:

"On a side note, there is some debate from people who believe a view they call the Pre-Wrath Rapture. They believe that the Church will be raptured three-quarters of the way into the Tribulation. They believe that the wrath of God does not come into the Tribulation until we are three-quarters in. They believe that the first half of the Tribulation is the wrath of man, and the second half is the wrath of God."

This is not what prewrath teaches. Where are your sources? I find it telling that pretribulationism continues distort prewrath teaching. Why not represent it correctly?

Alan
prewratrapture.com

Alan Kurschner said...

"and the second half is the wrath of God."

You are making up things. Please cite your primary prewrath source. Either you assume your readers will accept your word as gospel, or they just don't care that you make up things and distort your opponents position.


Alan
prewrathrapture.com

Nathan Jones said...

For one, Alan, I'm not the speaker in this presentation. Ask Don Perkins the question.

If there's confusion concerning the Pre-Wrath Rapture view, it's because of all the Rapture views it's the most convoluted to understand and it's few adherents can't agree on the specifics or terminology.

Jesus opens the very First Seal Judgment and continues, and the "time of Jacob's trouble" is the whole seven years. Pre-wrath can't get past those two facts and so has to reinvent the terminology. No wonder so many are confused by it (though Don knows his stuff)!

Anonymous said...

Why then do you post falsehood?

You said:

"If there's confusion concerning the Pre-Wrath Rapture view, it's because of all the Rapture views it's the most convoluted to understand and it's few adherents can't agree on the specifics or terminology."

If you are so confident in your assertion then show it in action and have you, David, or Don debate us publicly. We are willing to go under cross-examination in a public debate, but you folks are not. Which speaks volumes.

You said: "and it's few adherents can't agree on the specifics or terminology."

You are full of assertions but lack any documentation.

If Don knows his stuff as you claim, then right now I publicly challenge him to a moderated debate with plenty of cross-examination.

You guys have been ignoring prewrath for many years, and that is one of the reasons why it has become so popular. Further, the more you distort prewrath the more people see the truth in prewrath. The gig is up. People are waking up.

If you cannot cite any prewrath primary sources for your claims above, then for the record you are complicit with Don Perkins in your dishonesty. Let the truth be known.

Nathan Jones said...

Dude, Alan, get a grip. After that rant, is it any wonder no one wants to bother debating you?

The Pre-Wrath view is getting more popular?!?

Good thing salvation isn't dependent on one's end time viewpoint.

Alan Kurschner said...

Nathan,

It is not a rant to challenge someone to a debate who perpetuates falsehoods. You continue to obfuscate and mislead your readers. Document your assertions by citing your primary source, otherwise, have the integrity to remove the false statements about prewrath.

Alan

Anonymous said...

Nathan, here's a link to some Prewrath charts. I assume they're right.

Frankly, I found the prewrath view confusing when I first came across it. My experience was that some of the prewrath folks I was talking to didn't quite grasp it either.

All the more reason to finish that book, Alan.

That way we can all go to the one source.

rg

Alan Kurschner said...

Here are the false statements that is made in your post about prewrath. And these are not incidental, instead they are definitional of the prewrath position.

You made three statements about prewrath, and all of them are wrong.

Assertion #1: "[Prewrath] believe[s] that the Church will be raptured three-quarters of the way into the Tribulation."

Truth: Prewrath affirms that the Church will be raptured sometime during the second half of the 7 year period.

Assertion #2: "[Prewrath] believe[s] that the wrath of God does not come into the Tribulation until we are three-quarters in"

Truth: Prewrath affirms that the wrath of God doe not begin until the Great Tribulation is cut short sometime during the second half of the seven year period when the parousia begins.


Assertion #3: "[Prewrath] believe[s] that the first half of the Tribulation is the wrath of man, and the second half is the wrath of God."

Truth: Prewrath affirms that the first half is characterized by earthly disturbances, war, famine, false Christs, persecution. The second half begins with Antichrist's Great Tribulation (satan's wrath); and when it is cut short sometime during the second half, it will be followed by the Day of the Lord's wrath.

This accurate information is a click away. And it shows no credibility on your part to avoid documenting your assertions, and to refuse being corrected.

Alan

p.s. You said, "The Pre-Wrath view is getting more popular?!?"

Yes, when the most popular rapture book published by Zondervan included prewrath in their new recent edition, that sort of says something about the popularity of prewrath:

Three Views on the Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation

David said...

Alan,

YOU never addressed Nathan's points.

Please show me in the Bible where God has sent wrath upon the earth or a society and the righteous were left to suffer God's wrath. Once you have answered this, please go read Malachi 3.

Second, I do hope you consider Jesus God. If so, then please tell me who opens the seal unleashing the tribulation upon the earth? How do you get around this?

Alan Kurschner said...

David,

Unlike Nathan who feels the need to be dishonest with his readers and make up things without actually supporting his assertions with actual documentation. I will answer your question:

The seals are not God's wrath as I have demonstrated before:
http://prewrathrapture.com/2009/06/the_first_six_seals_are_not_gods_wrath_1.php

Nathan Jones said...

Alan, please, ad hominem attacks are the last, most desperate argument for those who have no leg to stand on. And please get it right, I didn't author this, though I do support what Don is stating. It is not those who hold other views' fault if Pre-Wrath can't agree with itself and only you have the correct Pre-Wrath interpretation.

As for documentation, just search "pre-wrath" on this blog and our Lamb & Lion website for articles and sources.

Don't forget Mid-Trib in your list of views, as it's even more "popular" than Pre-Wrath.

Expected Imminently said...

Aha! This makes a change for me, I know that name Alan Kurschner.
Unless I am mistaken this is the gentleman CIC dealt with? http://cicministry.org/scholarly/sch011.pdf

Eric Douma has done some fine tuning of the Greek and Grammar in 2 Thess.2:1-8 and shows how the Greek clearly has the A/c being revealed when he confirms the covenant with the Jewish majority kicking off the seven years.

Unless I am misinformed, Pre-wrath states A/c isn’t ‘revealed’ until he goes into the Temple at the sixth seal? Confusing the deceased Tribulation martyrs with the Rapture of the church?

(My Blog name of Expected Imminently was chosen because of a grammatical ‘oops’ by Pre-wrath)

Sue

Alan Kurschner said...

Nathan,

Ad hominem is when you use emotion or a person's character _as a premise_ for an argument. Have you heard me say, "Prewrath is correct because Nathan Jones is dishonest"?

I am calling you out on your blatant dishonesty. If you want to continue to be dishonest, then that is to your shame.

Last time, show me specific prewrath sources that you base your claims on. It's called that little thing...documentation.


Sue,

You said,"Unless I am misinformed, Pre-wrath states A/c isn’t ‘revealed’ until he goes into the Temple at the sixth seal?"

Yes, you are sadly misinformed. When will you folks rely on primary literature and not on hear say? Are you folks not concerned with accurately representing the other side? I am not afraid of doing that. Why are you?

Sue, if you want to discredit yourself by being associated with Eric Douma's sophomoric use of the Greek by all means. He shows how a little Greek is a dangerous thing. BTW, I am doing a series on my blog responding to his argumentation.

Alan

Expected Imminently said...

NATHAN – DISHONEST!!!

What a rotten thing to call someone as decent a man as Nathan is.

Well chum, you have got off to a great start, you’ve well and truly put my back up, and to think that Eric Douma wrote so well of you. Shame on you.

The term ‘¾ wrath’ is a ‘convenience’. That it isn’t EXACTLY that time span is hardly a shocking misrepresentation. Before I read any other view on it; THAT was how I termed it as well. Prets; Pre; Mid; Prats and Post are my usual short-cuts as my fingers don’t find the numbers ¾ quickly enough.

To boast that the Pre-Wrath theory is the most popular in this day of ‘itching ears’ and ‘heaping up teachers’ strongly suggests it doesn’t have much going for it in any case.

The Tribulation WAS ‘cut short’ – PAST tense, not something to be done in the future. ‘shortened’ koloboo verb Aorist; Active; Indicative.

IMO it concerns Leviticus 26 and the blessings and cursings; I have been through this here before, so I won’t labour it as I am merely a housewife and granny and what do I know! I have to rely on Scholars such as Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Reynald Showers and Robert Dean.

Sue

Alan Kurschner said...

Yes, dishonest. Nathan has made up things as noted above, and he got caught and refuses to come clean.

Expected Imminently said...

and Dr Reagan :)

Expected Imminently said...

Mr Kurschner

Accusing anyone of being ‘dishonest’ should be reserved for when their collar is being felt when caught in acts of lawlessness.

You have far too great an opinion of your ‘Johnny-Come-Lately’ theory that is on a par with the gnosticism that confused the early church; instead you are a part of the end time ‘new knowledge’ that is tearing families apart and causing divisions among the brethren.

I find the pre-wrath theory incredibly moronic (naturally I do not consider you to be a moron because of it) I find it akin to counterfeit money. Bank tellers do not need to have lessons on all the fakes being circulated, all they need is firm knowledge of what the truth is like – then as soon as it passes through their fingers they know exactly what is false.

That, Mr Kurschner, is MY very OWN opinion of this post-modern, phoney, theory not because of Nathan or Mr Eric Douma and his, according to you, “sophomoric” Greek (he really has got up your nose hasn’t he) but from my own personal understanding of what God’s Word ACTUALLY says, means I can spot a dud a mile hence.

I am simple in many ways, but MY heart is not as easily deceived as those who have been naively taken in by your self-serving, fleshly, false crusade

I would like to add that those you accuse of refusing to debate you, are being obedient to Scripture that warns us to mark and avoid a divisive man. Romans 16:17,18.

PS. I note you have still refused to answer David.

God’s wrath; Christ’s wrath; Satan’s wrath; man’s wrath – we are NOT appointed to wrath.

1Thess5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

By obtaining salvation, we are not appointed to wrath – ANY wrath.

Sue

Billy said...

Alan,

Now I'm going to weigh in. This is for you...

Thhhhhppppppppttttttt!
(As in a big raspberry! I can't figure out how to spell it.)

Not for your viewpoints but for calling Nathan dishonest.

Alan Kurschner said...

Evidently, there is no one here interested in meaningful discussion.

“The first to state his case seems right, until his opponent begins to cross-examine him.” (Prov 18:17)

Goodbye,
Alan

Expected Imminently said...

AK said "Evidently, there is no one here interested in meaningful discussion".

And of course you are Alan, when you throw spiteful,comments against those who say honestly that your view is wrong. Nathan is well loved, and for good reason so don't expect to be welcomed with open arms with your bullying attitude.

I have just visited your site, and I am so underwhelmed that I cannot reconcile ever having a meanngful discussion with you - ever.

IMMINENCY is a over-hanging event and expectancy is a persons reaction TO that imminent event!
They are one and the same Alan.

Paul, long before the 19th Century used the personal pronoun 'When WE who are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up....
Paul was in the state of expectancy because he believed Jesus return could happen at any moment (imminency) during HIS LIFETIME.

There are other such verses that point to imminency, being the reason FOR the expectancy of the Apostles in the New
Testament.

Why 'wait' and 'look expectantly for something that isn't imminent.
You wouldn't expect, and look out in the morning for a train to arrive when you know its not due until midnight.

Before Jesus can come back for Prewrath, there HAS to be the 7 seals and at least one trumpet judgment. THAT is hope deferred, not expectancy, and it makes the heart sick.

Of course the thief is an expected, imminent event, we have to keep on the look out for Him permanently because his coming is expected and imminent.

John 10:10 also means Jesus is coming as a thief during the Tribulation to kill and to destroy.
unrepentant earthdwellers. That has nothing to do with the Church.

Sue

Anonymous said...

Alan says,“(By the way, a fourth of mankind is not killed in the fourth seal; there is only, “power over a fourth of the earth.”)”

And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him. And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth. (Rev 6:8)

Given authority over the fourth part…to kill. It seems pretty straight forward to me and to just about every other commentator I've read.

But why even bother going to the trouble to argue that a fourth of mankind isn’t killed if this isn’t God’s wrath?

Context?

rg

Anonymous said...

BTW, I agree with Alan that any system under discussion should be represented as accurately as possible.

Perhaps a note at the end of the above article?

rg

Expected Imminently said...

Alan Kurschener said: “You made three statements about prewrath, and all of them are wrong.

Assertion #1: "[Prewrath] believe[s] that the Church will be raptured three-quarters of the way into the Tribulation."
Truth: Prewrath affirms that the Church will be raptured SOMETIME during the second half of the 7 year period."

Sue: That ‘sometime’ is therefore between the 7th Trumpet and the 6th Vial i.e. not Mid and not Post; so roughly, ‘sometime’ about ¾ of the way through – give or take!

A.K. said: "Assertion #2: "[Prewrath] believe[s] that the wrath of God does not come into the Tribulation until we are three-quarters in"
Truth: Prewrath affirms that the wrath of God doe not begin until the Great Tribulation is cut short sometime during the second half of the seven year period when the parousia begins."

Sue: ‘Sometime’ during the second half is again between the 7th Trumpet and the 6th Vial – again, not Mid or Post; timing variable so roughly ¾ of the way is a reasonable assessment of this indecisive theory.

A.K. said: "Assertion #3: "[Prewrath] believe[s] that the first half of the Tribulation is the wrath of man, and the second half is the wrath of God."
Truth: Prewrath affirms that the first half is characterized by earthly disturbances, war, famine, false Christs, persecution. The second half begins with Antichrist's Great Tribulation (satan's wrath); and when it is cut short sometime during the second half, it will be followed by the Day of the Lord's wrath."

Sue: War, resulting famine, false Christ’s, persecution are all within man’s ability to deliver; so it is reasonable to apply these events as ‘man’s wrath’; as indeed many Prat adherents’ have arrived at this obvious conclusion when trying to defend it.

As for the non-existing distinctions made for ‘wrath’; if God’s wrath isn’t in the first half, then it has to be ‘sometime’ during the second half – give or take.

The 70th Week of THE Tribulation is instigated by Christ, God the Son, breaking the 7 Seal’s and God’s angel’s operating at His command. Satan, like King Cyrus and Nebuchadnezzar (called God’s Servants) were used by God as a ‘tool’ to bring God’s judgment upon Israel.

As said, the time WAS cut short PAST tense ‘shortened’ Gk verb ‘koloboo’ – Aorist, Active, Indicative. God HAD chosen to shorten His judgments to ‘only’ 7 years and could have been longer; OR far worse, by incorporating the 7 thunders into the 7 yrs as well perhaps the 4th set of ‘sevens’, instead of just three as written in Leviticus 26.

A.K. said “This accurate information is a click away. And it shows no credibility on your part to avoid documenting your assertions, and to refuse being corrected."

Sue: In this post A.K. has clearly defined his ‘Truth’; and I have acknowledged as a ‘correction’ to it. Upon examination, A.K’s cry of ‘misrepresentation’ of his dithering view has him ‘straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel’- too petty for words and does not warrant branding another brother as ‘dishonest’.

Sue

David said...

Alan,

You did not answer my question: Where in the Bible has God not removed the righteous from his judgment/wrath?

Does God not use wicked kings, weather, and natural disasters to punish the unfaithful? Where has he used these things in the Bible to punish the righteous? Please read Malachi 3.

I don't care how many hoops you have to jump through to get to your false interpretation that is pre-wrath. To say that the seals are not judgment by God is laughable!

Is the 7 year tribulation not about Israel??

If the church is here, then, why are the Two Witnesses needed? The 144,000??

This pre-wrath theory has more holes than swiss cheese!!

David said...

Oh you ran away, Alan, because your theory was actually challenged...

The pre-wrath theory has been weighed and found wanting, Alan..

Anonymous said...

Sue, who's the gnat? Don or Nathan? ;-)

Storm in a teacup?

rg

Nathan Jones said...

I'll never understand how when we say "Post-Trib," "Muslim Antichrist," "Young Earth" or "Pre-Wrath" even in passing some hothead will appear out of nowhere to rant and rave about their pet position. They must all be closet "Pre-Trib" readers. ;)

Alan, this sermon/article by Don is not about the Pre-Wrath Rapture, and he only mentions it in passing. I'm sorry he didn't dive deep enough on the topic for you, but it's only worth a casual mention.

I'm not going to add a whole Pre-Wrath addendum to this because it's a 101/201 level Bible prophecy conference. If anyone wants to read up more on the Pre-wrath or other view, this blog is chock full of articles on the topic, and we have more on our lamblion.com website, including whole TV shows dedicated to it.

At least Alan's visit spurred a lot of conversation which showed the gaping views in the Pre-Wrath view. I'm sorry he's willing to cut Christian fellowship over such secondary doctrine.

Thank you for the kind words about me personally, Gang. You're the greatest!

Billy said...

I guess I chased Alan away.

Does that mean the raspberry is mightier than the keyboard?

Billy said...

Nathan said "I'm sorry he's willing to cut Christian fellowship over such secondary doctrine."

I guess my posts sometimes aren't a good example of Christian fellowship (giving Alan the raspberry) but when Nathan or Lamb & Lion are UNFAIRLY attacked I can't help myself.

Sorry Alan, please come back. I'll play nice if you will.

:)

Billy said...

btw Nathan, I know the comment you posted was aimed at Alan, not me contrary to how my last post reads.

Expected Imminently said...

rg
You tinker! :D

Nathan x

ANYBODY who messes with one of my lads has got me to answer to, and if I goes under, I'm taking them with me.

Billy

Ya don't know the strength of yer own rasberry. Don't say it! Spray it!

David
Good stuff!

Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition. Ifn AK comes back and speaks nicely, I will happily chat with him again.

Sue

Anonymous said...

Alan said - if you want to discredit yourself by being associated with Eric Douma's sophomoric use of the Greek by all means. He shows how a little Greek is a dangerous thing. BTW, I am doing a series on my blog responding to his argumentation.

Sophomoric: conceited and overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature

Douma’s attitude isn’t conceited. He admits that he was originally partial to the prewrath view of 2 Thess 2. He’s also done his homework by citing a number of sources, in so making up for any “overconfidence or poorly informed” areas.

I’m looking forward to seeing how well Alan answers Douma’s many other points.

He’s off to a flying start in defending prewrath by raising the ubiquitous points about Darby etc. I guess that makes prewrath right just on that issue. Of course Darby invented pretrib, just like Van Kampen invented prewrath and all the features that make prewrath unique.

rg

Expected Imminently said...

"...Of course Darby invented pretrib..."

Wot you talkin' about rg???

Anonymous said...

Fret not, EI. I was just using sarcasm to point out that our prewrath buddies actually have the latest view.

Darby was a meticulous scholar. His conclusions would have been derived from Scripture.

The same can be said for Van Kampen...except for the meticulous part.

There I go again.

rg

Expected Imminently said...

Big hug rg!

Did I scare you - I did try :D

Sue
x

Anonymous said...

That you did, Sue. I scare easy.

rg

Mitchell said...

Hello to all my wonderful friends! Looks like this has been quite a discussion. In all seriousness, let's not be too hard on Alan, he is a brother in Christ and is actually a nice guy, even if we disagree with him on some of the non-essentials.

But if anyone is serious about studying these type of questions here (and I know everyone here is, or at least should be!) then here is a view (different than Alan's) that will dig a little deeper in what the Greek text is telling us when it says that we are not appointed unto 'wrath'. For your consideration:

Lost in Translation: ‘Not Appointed Unto Wrath’ – What Scripture Is Really Saying

Anonymous said...

Hi there, Mitchell. Was wondering where you'd been. Thought you might have been raptured ahead of us ;-)

Good effort with the blog. The content looks awfully familiar though ;-)

rg

Expected Imminently said...

rg

You tempted me to peek into Mitchells blog; but I felt a little faint, so rushed back here where I know I shall be surrounded by reason.

It's that orge/thymos agin enit! That which sent EI cross eyed checking the Greek.
From memory, both words together are explaining the FULLNESS of God's wrath. Likened to the fiery, come out punching, wrath of a young man to the brooding vengeful wrath of an old man, the full spectrum of available wrathful emotions being spent upon earthdwellers.

The sheer desperation of Prats and Posts trying desperately to make a sieve into an ocean going liner is an incredulous sight to behold.imo

Sue :/

Anonymous said...

Yep, it’s the same old stuff.

Whenever I see that word thymos I think of thymus and there goes my immune system.

rg

Mitchell said...

If you see anything unreasonable with the article, please do share exactly what it is that you believe to be ... unreasonable! :)

Mitchell

David said...

I always find it amazing how many post and mid-tribbers make their way on a regular basis to pre-trib sites to tell us how wrong we are.... I never visit mid or post trib sites because I vehemently disagree with their stance on the issue, but since it is not a salvation issue I don't feel the need to go to their sites and try to change their minds. Interesting that they do feel the need to try to change our minds or show us we are "wrong."

It truly makes me wonder just how secure these post and mid tribbers are in their theories to show up here so often for debate...

Billy said...

Mitchell said "In all seriousness, let's not be too hard on Alan"

Mitchell, your buddy was, basically, calling Nathan a liar.

How about calling out your buddy on that before you come down on the rest of us?

Mitchell said...

I've had many debates myself with Alan, and I know he can be direct at times. But like I said, let's not be too hard on him, otherwise the debate devolves and tends to divide instead of encouraging beneficial discussion. And I would encourage Alan to not be too hard on pre-tribbers. We can debate vigorously, but let's do so with gentleness and with respect.

For myself, I don't think that I 'come down' on anyone. I simply state what my position is, and why I believe it.

Expected Imminently said...

UNREASONABLE?

Who said that! Who said that word? rg didn’t, E.I. didn’t, David didn’t nor Billy?

HmmI wonder if that's what's called a 'Freudian Slip'? I mean, I wouldn’t say it, I’m not that way inclined psycho speaking, but I dunno, seeing it all agin – loomin’- like a sinister spectre that refuses to stay pegged. T
he deja vous gave E.I. a panic attack!

Out, damned spot! out, I say!— Fie!- Yet who would have thought the Postie to have had so much reiteration in him?

~ gibber ~

Nathan Jones said...

E.I., there's a reason so many of the greatest authors came out of England. You do them justice!

Mitchell said...

EI said, "rg You tempted me to peek into Mitchells blog; but I felt a little faint, so rushed back here where I know I shall be surrounded by reason."

Michell said, "If you see anything unreasonable with the article, please do share exactly what it is that you believe to be ... unreasonable! :)"

Thus I await the reasoned response. ;)

Anonymous said...

No, you don’t throw stones, Mitchell. It does seem, though, that posties and prewrathers have a sweetheart deal (soft violin playing somewhere in the background) where they don’t generally take potshots at each other. Alan could have tackled this in a different way by correcting the fallacy and inserting a link. As it was, he betrayed his contempt for pretribbers by blowing a gasket over a trivial point. Prewrath rupture?

rg

Mitchell said...

Trust me, Alan and I have had 'heated debates'. Regardless, it is important to always treat one another as brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our position on such a non-essential doctrine.

(For what it's worth, Alan's view is pre-wrath of the Rosenthal variety. My view is almost identical to Roland Rasmussen.)

Anonymous said...

"Regardless, it is important to always treat one another as brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our position on such a non-essential doctrine."

Amen. Unfortunately this is often not the case.

Expected Imminently said...

Michell said, "If you see anything unreasonable with the article, please do share exactly what it is that you believe to be ... unreasonable! :)"

Thus I await the reasoned response. ;)"

My comment about ‘reason’, as in ‘ordered thinking’, was addressed to this blogs Pre-trib stance.

Only Pre-Trib follows systematic reasoning as it’s based upon the Character of God and the strong foundation of His WHOLE Council which emphasises ‘imminency’.

Postie does not have that solid foundation; it’s ‘ethereal, castles in the air’!

YOU referred to UNREASONABLE in connection with your work, I didn’t mention it, why would I want to reason with something that only exists in the Postie psyche with theories that are ‘all wind and water’ with no substance.

A Phantom isn’t unreasonable – something that doesn’t exist is nothing but a fallacy.

Besides, dissecting words apart from the whole context isn’t conducive to ‘reason’. Plus your method of interpretation is Progressive Dispy (isn’t it?) which in itself is ‘airy fairy’ and Replacement Theology can have no relationship with the normal/grammatical/historical interpretation of the Pre-Trib Dispensationalist who stands resolutely upon the clearly defined, Biblical distinctions between Israel and the Church.

Sue

Expected Imminently said...

Michell said “Regardless, it is important to always treat one another as brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our position on such a non-essential doctrine.”

I agree we must endeavour to be civil – BUT – I have realised that Eschatology is NOT a ‘non-essential’ doctrine. A person’s end-time view is but the tip of the iceberg; underneath is the mass of Biblical Doctrine which can be affected by one’s Rapture stance. The Doctrine of Israel and the Doctrine of the Church and their clear-cut DISTINCTION, one from the other, is a prime example. This results in a ‘knock-on’ effect throughout all of God given Doctine such as Soteriology and HOW we are saved.

Michell said “(For what it's worth, Alan's view is pre-wrath of the Rosenthal variety. My view is almost identical to Roland Rasmussen.)”

Aye, and therein lies the rub!

Just as gravity was not invented by Newton, but realised its existence, the scientist then gave the effect it’s name of ‘Gravity’.

So too the Pre-Trib view is not of any man’s invention, but RE-discovery of the effect of ‘suddenness’ in the distinctly different Rapture (Church) from the 2nd Coming (Israel) declared in Scripture.

John Darby recognised and named Jesus Words, and the Apostles expected return of Christ, as ‘Imminency or Pre-Trib’; just as man gave our Triune God the name of The Trinity.

All other views are indeed inventions of men.

Sue

David said...

Well said, Sue! Bravo!

Expected Imminently said...

David

God bless you.

I think you said you were from Houston? Is that as in 'Houston, we have lift off'?

Sue :D
x

David said...

Correct Sue!

The Houston that our "wonderful" president just slapped the hand of by withholding what our city is known for, the space shuttle.

If I'm not mistaken, you are our sister from across the big pond. Glad to see such well-read Christians coming out of the UK!

I enjoy reading your posts here, and over at Mr. Osborne's site too!

May God bless you as well!

Expected Imminently said...

Hello David

Unless there is another Susan from across the pond in the U.K.? YES! Tis ME. :D

!THIS! is my Church - so pull up a pew and get ready for LIFT OFF Rapture style.

Thank you for the encouraging compliment, it's much appreciated as I get very little feed back from Olde England, but I DO love her; and there are still a few solid teachers, just rather few and far between.

Considering I have never been to the US, you chaps have been teaching me for several decades, indirectly by the tape ministry of the late Roger Price of Chichester England. He was taught via tapes from Dallas when it was kosher! Charles Clough was one of his teachers. Must include Arnold Fruchtenbaum for his teaching on all things Jewish. Certainly all a provision from The Lord in a time of famine.

Nathan and his terrific gang have listened patiently to my troubles and have lifted me up when it all gets too much. I pray for MAJOR blessings for everything y'all have done for me with such Grace, love and abounding generosity - stunning and very moving.

Sean is amazing, he's ACE with his military expertise; he often leaves E.I. 'gobsmacked'. Then there is dear Scott Sykes at Prophecy Update who is really anointed by the way he compares todays news with prophecy (DrNofog and Hartdawg 'took' me there.) Like Dr.Reagan and Nathan, Scott always keeps me 'looking up'!

I know I am 'rabbiting; but only recently I heard a story from my ancient Mater that warmed the cockles of my heart. During the war, when she was carrying me, the 'Yankie' soldiers regularly stopped their truck, lifted her on board and saved her a long, long walk in the middle of no-where in Yorkshire. She said 'they were so kind to me'! So the US, have been 'looking out' for me since before I was born. Good init! :D

Glad you are here David, your comments have been 'spot on' and appreciated.

MARANATHA!
Sue
x

Anonymous said...

(For what it's worth, Alan's view is pre-wrath of the Rosenthal variety. My view is almost identical to Roland Rasmussen.)

I’m not sure if Mitchell is saying that there is more than one pre-wrath view i.e. Van Kampen vs Nigro vs Rosnthal etc. It was the Rosenthal variety pre-wrath that drew a lot of pretribbers away from pre-trib to the new system.

When I first came across the system via proselytizers I asked a lot of questions because some aspects were unclear to me. I got nearly as many answers as the questions I asked and none were satisfactory. These mainly related to the idea that the tribulation was cut short, the parousia versus one single coming and the fact that martyrs needed to be raised up after the tribulation (which had been cut short).

Perhaps this is why the Prewrath Resource Institute has recently been selling courses so that people can go out and teach the system?

rg

Mitchell said...

EI: "Only Pre-Trib follows systematic reasoning as it’s based upon the Character of God and the strong foundation of His WHOLE Council which emphasises ‘imminency’."

Based upon the 'Character of God'? Can you please explain what you mean by that? Millions upon millions of Christians have died for their faith throughout the centuries. David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, and Peter F. Crossing in their 2009 report in the International Bulletin of Missionary Research (Vol. 33, No. 1: 32) estimate that approximately 176,000 Christians were murdered for their faith between mid-2008 to mid-2009. That's over 482 Christians every single day. Over 20 Christians every hour. This, according to the authors, compares to 160,000 Christians who were murdered in mid-2000 and 34,400 at the beginning of the 20th century. And it's getting worse. According to many estimates more Christians have been martyred in the 20th centuries alone than the previous 19 centuries combined.

Our Christian brothers and sisters on the other side of the world are today being persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, shot, blown up and even beheaded for the faith of Jesus -- every single day. At what point does it go from being 'normal' and within the confines of the 'Character of God' to becoming what you would consider 'tribulation' and outside of God's character? When it reaches 177,000 Christians a year? When it reaches 21 Christians an hour?

What is the 'Character of God' that you find in Scripture that should, for all intents and purposes, have raptured millions of murdered Christians that have already died for the faith of Jesus this past decade?

Mitchell said...

EI says, "I agree we must endeavour to be civil – BUT – I have realised that Eschatology is NOT a ‘non-essential’ doctrine."

Are you saying that one must be pre-trib in order to be saved? That seems to be what you are implying.

As for the nature of Israel and the Church, I explain this in detail in my article "… That Where I Am There You May Be Also’ – It Means More Than We Think". Click on my name up above, it'll bring you directly to the article. You are more than welcome to refute it if you like. In fact, I encourage you to take up the challenge. :)

Mitchell said...

rg says, "I’m not sure if Mitchell is saying that there is more than one pre-wrath view i.e. Van Kampen vs Nigro vs Rosnthal etc. It was the Rosenthal variety pre-wrath that drew a lot of pretribbers away from pre-trib to the new system."

There are two. Alan's view believes that the rapture takes place after the middle of a seven-year tribulation but before the wrath of God during the last 3.5 years. My pre-wrath view is post-tribulational. I believe that the rapture takes place after Great Tribulation, but before the 'orge' wrath that we are promised deliverance from.

re says, "When I first came across the system via proselytizers I asked a lot of questions because some aspects were unclear to me. I got nearly as many answers as the questions I asked and none were satisfactory. These mainly related to the idea that the tribulation was cut short, the parousia versus one single coming and the fact that martyrs needed to be raised up after the tribulation (which had been cut short)."

Alan and I have debated some of those exact points. You can read one of our debates here: http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=1973#comment-178254

Expected Imminently said...

Mitchell

I have replied on the new thread Monday 25th April, 2011

Sue

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the response, Mitchell.

Actually Alan’s definition is the same as yours; pre-wrath & post-trib, and his rapture also occurs prior to the “orge” – but with the obvious differences re the timing of that “orge” and “cutting short” of the great trib.

On other words there is only one “official” prewrath view.

I’ve seen that debate at Joelstrumpet.

rg

Nathan Jones said...

Mitchell, where our long conversations always end up is what you posted above concerning suffering Christians today. It's a blind spot for you in your interpretation, and I'm at a loss to understand why in all your intellect you're blind to this very simple concept - the suffering Church today is not suffering by God's hand under His wrath.

Now, follow the logic. If the Church is promised not to have to endure God's wrath, and Jesus opens the Seal Judgments pouring out that wrath, then the whole seven years of Tribulation is not for the Church, ie - a Pre-Trib Rapture.

No offense, Man, but my elementary kids have no trouble understanding that simple concept. Until you can understand it or finally accept it, we're just going to keep running around the bush.

Expected Imminently said...

Mitchell

Israel - the Nation of the Jews, is promised a 'seed', which is Messiah Yeshua, and a LAND, which the physical nation of Israel will re-populate during the Mill on earth via the Jewish survivors of the Tribulation. Messiah will rule from Jerusalem. All replenished Gentile nations will have to ‘come up’ to Jerusalem to worship in The Temple in the Land of Israel.


The Church – is the Body of Christ who is ‘The Head’. She is not a ‘nation’. One New Man of both Jew and Gentile whose citizenship is in heaven, not earth as she is not promised any LAND.
Their mortal earthly bodies; will become immortal like the angels, not being wed or childbearing. As they are IN Christ, they will rule with Him from Jerusalem.

They are both distinctly different companies one from the other.

Sue

Anonymous said...

Sue, Mitchell’s treatment of John 14 kinda reminds me of Tim Warner’s efforts but with a few extra twists. Even non-premil posties recognize the face-value meaning of John 14. I like Beechick’s take on it. Here’s a clue; Jesus wasn’t returning to the Father’s house on earth i.e. the Temple.

Tim Warner also found a novel way to convince himself that Rev 20:4 occurs retrospectively, all the way back to the 7th trumpet. Of course there’s no clue in Rev 20 that such is the case.

That was sobering data about church persecution and martyrdom, Mitchell. But need it be said again that most pretribbers on this forum don’t believe they’re excluded from this type of tribulation. It’s all about when God’s wrath begins.

I don’t see how arguing that the word “orge” doesn’t appear until the 6th seal quite cuts it. It carries as much weight as Alan’s claim that the 4th seal doesn’t kill a quarter of the population. In other words, if a something isn’t mentioned in Scripture it isn’t there. I guess the church isn’t there either. And God’s wrath is apparently dependant upon the quantity of deaths in the 4th seal. Well maybe it isn’t but just in case, let’s just point out that the 4th seal ain’t as bad as the pretribbers say it is.

rg

Expected Imminently said...

rg
I am so glad you have a finger on the pulse of this sickly corpse.

It does my head in!

I would have pronounced it dead, and buried it still breathing...
WILFUL! That word keeps springing to mind when I consider these stubborn attitudes.

Well done for persevering.
God bless.
Sue

Expected Imminently said...

rg

To save my ‘legs’; is the ‘Beechick’ link kosher?

Haven’t heard of Tim Warner, sounds well dodgy, I take it he is either Prat or Post?

Sue :)
x

Anonymous said...

Sue,

Beechick is kosher. I don't always agree with him but he's made me think about a few things.

Tim Warner is a postie who maintains a pro-postie, anti-pretrib website. He was one of my first stops when I was trying to figure out this whole rapture thing. He’s also a creative thinker when it comes to making Scripture say something that it apparently doesn’t.

rg

Anonymous said...

I see Alan Kurschner has put up the long-awaited 2nd instalment to his response to Eric Douma. So far he's sticking to the so-called Day of the Lord problem for pretrib. That's a surprise ;-)

Eric posed quite a few thorny questions for prewrath - still waiting for the response to those. Waiting...waiting...

Oh, and he really doesn't talk thaaaaaaat fast. If you can't follow the audio he's provided the notes.

rg