Friday, February 3, 2012

Yearning for Jesus: Rapture Timing

Nathan JonesWatch MP3 PDFBy

What will be the timing of the Rapture in relation to the Tribulation?

Jesus Christ could be coming back this very year! To ring in this new year, Dr. David Reagan, Dennis Pollock of Spirit of Grace Ministries and I discussed on television's Christ in Prophecy why you should be yearning for the return of Jesus Christ.


Christ in Prophecy Panel


Timing of the Rapture

Dr. Reagan: The Bible really makes it very clear that the Rapture is an event separate and apart from the Second Coming because one is a Bridegroom coming for His Bride in love, and the other is a warrior returning to pour out the wrath of God. Those are two separate events. So, now the big question that comes up at this point: When is the Rapture going to occur? Is it going to occur before, at the beginning, in the middle, near the end, or at the very end of the Tribulation?

Nathan Jones: There are plenty of Bible verses that talk about how the Church will be saved from the wrath of God. I think of Revelation 3:10 for instance. The Church is those whom God has called out from the world, whom He loves and who will be called His "Bride." Such an object of divine love will not be there in the Tribulation for seven years to get beat up and bruised by the groom.

An example of this would be, would my wife have married me if I'd spent seven years beating her up to the point that she was a bloody mess due to going through all the judgments and tribulation I put her through? Then I say, "Okay, Honey, let's get married." No, that'd be insane!

Dr. Reagan: That's a good point, because there are people who have actually argued with me over that and said the Church needs to go through the Tribulation because it needs to be purified. You are going to beat your bride up for seven years before you come and get her? Of course not!

And, furthermore, isn't the blood of Jesus sufficient to purify us from all sins? When you take that position you're turning the Tribulation into a Protestant Purgatory.

Nathan Jones: That's similar to the Partial Rapture theory, too, which is the idea that only certain people will be raptured who are the most spiritual or because they're anticipating Jesus' coming. It's a form of Christian snobbery, and obviously the people who claim this view already believe they are in the in group that's going to be raptured. The Partial Rapture Theory is not the case. Christ comes for His Bride the Church and that's everybody — and I mean everybody — who is saved. We all live at a different point in our life in our process of sanctification, and some struggle with sin more than others. But, when one's saved one is covered by Christ's forgiveness and so all who are saved will all be raptured.

Dr. Reagan: Would you place the Rapture before the Tribulation begins?

Nathan Jones: Yes. I think there are so many verses that indicate the Rapture will happen before the Tribulation.

Dennis Pollock: Yes, I would agree with what Nathan said and add one more thing, and that is the point concerning imminence. If you say the Rapture has to come at the end of the Tribulation, then you would know for certain that Christ couldn't come today because we are obviously not in the Tribulation. You would be looking for the Antichrist. You would be looking for at least about half the world's population to be killed, which you probably wouldn't survive anyway. You would have to have all these judgments that would have to happen first. So, if you say the Rapture comes at the end of the Tribulation then Christ couldn't come today. If you say Christ couldn't come today, then you have just negated the whole heart of everything Jesus had to say about watching for His return.

Dr. Reagan: That's right! There's just no doubt about the timing when it comes to imminency.

Nathan Jones: Reading Revelation 3:10 is about as secure as you can get with one's understanding in the Pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture. "Since you have kept my commands to endure patiently. I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." That's a clear indication in this verse and many others that teach that the Church is not meant to suffer under the wrath of God.

Dr. Reagan: Another verse is 1 Thessalonians 1:10 where we are told that we are to, "wait for His Son from Heaven whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who will deliver you from the wrath that is to come." We have a promise there that we are going to be delivered before the Tribulation begins.


In the last part of this series on yearning for Jesus' return, we'll look at why people explain away the Rapture or are apathetic about it, and what you should be doing while you're waiting.

53 comments:

Susie said...

Personally, i think TODAY would be a perfect day for the rapture!! :)
Maranatha!!!!

Mike ~ said...

I appreciate this posting. I have observed the idea of the imminent catching away of the Spirit-filled Church, the bride of Christ, coming under unprecedented attack - from within Christian quarters! :(

Anonymous said...

Excellent points made in this one! I am in total agreement! It has to be soon with what we see happening around us. PTL

C~ in Salem

Rodney said...

Mike, some are not attacks as you claim, some are rebukes for doctrinal error! The Rapture will occur at its appointed time, yet that time will not come until the Latter Rain is poured out upon Israel. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit witnessed on the Day of Pentecost was yet the Early Rain! It will soon come that the Early Rain or former rain as well as the Latter Rain will be poured out in the 1st Month of the sacred Jewish Calendar, which is Nisan. Joel 2:28,29 and Ezekiel 39:29 identifies with this. The Lord will pour out his Spirit in double portion upon the House of Israel!

The Doctrine of Imminence my friend is a fable! Israel must be prepared to take the mantle prior to the exit of the Church, for the Lord must have a messenger to deliver his plan of redemption to the world even in the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Tribulation).

Rodney said...

Mike, this will occur in the aftermath of the soon coming Gog/Magog battle of Ezekiel 38-39.

Rodney said...

Dr. Reagan, Nathan Jones, Sean Osborne and Bill Salus, portray the Lord God as being bipolar in their presentation of the scriptures! They believe that the Lord God will supernaturally aid Israel to militarily defeat their immediate neighbors, expand their borders, enjoy peace and prosperity (Psalm 83), then shortly after the same God will bring a even greater coalition (Gog/Magog) against his people for their rebellion and for profaning their name among the nations! Obviously their interpretations of events and prophetic scripture is a clear error, that is common sense people!

Billy said...

Rodney,

What you said in your last post makes sense to me.

Why would there be a Gog/Magog then a Psalm 83?

What about this...could they be reversed? Gog/Magog attack, Israel supernaturally saved, Israel turns to God in OT manner only (still not believe in Jesus), in comes the a/c, signs peace treaty and the first 3.5 years of tribulation could be the "Psalm 83" period.

What do yo think?

Billy said...

Ooops...I meant why would there be a Psalm 83 then a Gog/Magog in my last post.

Rodney said...

Billy, the Psalm 83 nations though not listed are obviously included in this invasion! Ezekiel 38:27 makes this clear: "And I will call for a sword against all my mountains (borders of Israel), saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother". Those nations bordering Israel as described in Psalm 83 will slaughter each other, the Shia and Sunni elements now in confrontation will finally face each other in deadly combat as illustrated here.

That is my whole point Billy, if people would just read the scriptures instead of relying on the word of supposed scholars, they would not be led astray to follow after fables. It is a shame that so many will seek to silence this truth to defend these lies that are being honored among scholars today!

Consider the fact also that the northern leg of the Gog/Magog force must transit Syria and Lebanon, as the western leg of North African forces must transit Egypt. Libya and Egypt are now united under the direction of the Muslim Brotherhood making this possible. I am pleading that everyone will see the truth, please read the scriptures for yourself, trust the guidance of the Holy Spirit not the personal interpretations of supposed scholars.

Rodney said...

If you believe I am angry, indeed you are right, for I have come bearing the truth yet am dismissed as a fool. I am not the truth but a vessel, those that stand in opposition to the truth do not stand in opposition to me, yet to the Word of God. Can a man not have righteous anger for those that stand in defiance and lead many astray! I am a believer in Yeshua, Son of the Living God, sacrificed for the sins of us all, resurrected and now sitting at the right hand of the Father. The Holy Spirit testifies of the truth, they that love the truth will hear his voice!

Billy said...

Rodney,

If you remember from previous posts, I am NOT a proponent of Psalm 83 as proposed in Israelistine and endorsed by others (including I think Dr. Reagan and Nathan).

I think Psalm 83 likely falls into prophecy somewhere in the end times, I just don't think it is in an all-powerful superpower Israel. That scenario doesn't make sense to me.

I never heard of Psalm 83 in the Israelistine context (or any other) until the Salus book. And that includes not hearing from my first end times prophecy reference (Hal Lindsey's The Late, Great Planet Earth) nor in my latter sources (such as Lamb & Lion, until recently).

As for you being mad...I'd say be passionate. But for the sake of Christian brotherhood, don't be mad at a Christian brother. State your point, defend it, but don't take it PERSONALLY if someone disagrees with you.

Take care.

Anonymous said...

[And I will call for a sword against all my mountains (borders of Israel) -------Those nations bordering Israel]

Sorry no, that’s not what I read at all. Theres a shaking IN the land of Israel itself because of the invading armies who have marched into Israel over her mountain tops. This is called Golan today where Israels enemies have always attacked from. These men are actually inside Israeli territory and are on a killing spree. God will cause these men to start fighting against one another, hes done that before. This is the named Gog armies in Ez38 that do not include those countries that are bordering Israel, but those are named in Psalm 83. Why not? Its maybe that something serious has already happened to Israels neighbours such as Isaiah 17. Isaiah says nothing about the Gog invasion so it must be a different and earlier event. That’s how I understand it and its been MY long time understanding of these verses,that has nothing to do with what other people might say, and I might well be wrong. Whats more I read that poor little Israel will get thrashed and barely surevive and that’s when Gog gets speed up and goes into weakened Israel where God kills them all of Gogs troops. That’s how all the nations realise that the God of Israel has fought for them but theres only a remnant left. For this reason I don’t believe that the church will still be around for the Gog war. The pouring out of the Spirit on Israel in Joel doesn’t happen until the Kingdom begins, not before. That’s what I see in my Bible.

Billy said...

We could be around for Gog but personally I am praying and hoping that we will be Raptured before it happens.

Why? Because I fear Russia may hit the U.S. with a nuclear first strike prior to attacking Israel.

DrNofog said...

Anon said "...That’s what I see in my Bible..."
Hmmm... By strange coincidence, that's exactly what my Bible says too!
"Fascinating...", as Spock was wont to say.

Rodney,
As to the claim of "righteous" anger, there is a [spirit] world of difference between Righteous anger and plain old, fleshly anger. The experts that help people with these issues define it as a "control issue"; that is, anger over the "loss of control" of events, things, and especially over people's thinking and actions that do not go the way you want them to.

According to the venerable Dr. Walter Martin [Kingdom of the Cults], and many other tried & true Bible "scholars", one of the characteristics of cults is that of following the teachings of a man who elevates, and majors on the minor doctrines of the Bible.

For example, in much the same way as the Campbellites, followers of Alexander Campbell [Church of Christ denomination] make water baptism an absolute essential to salvation using Axe2:38 & Axe22:16 to chop up any other Scriptures to the contrary.

You have created presuppositions concerning the prophetic events of the Rapture and the P83/I17 war as points to logically argue from [no fault in the logic], but then get angry when other point out that the premise itself is false because these preconditions that cannot be found in the Scriptures.

You then boldly accuse others, not only of being false teachers and minions of Satan, but of going around conspiring against you.

Delusional paranoia is yet another classic sign of cult leaders and as such I think it fairly warrants a warning to new believers and those less grounded in the Faith to be wary of your false teachings.

No one here is upset in debating you. We're just tired of the angry outbursts and name-calling accusations, because anymore, it's just starting to seem like you are trolling for "subscribers" to your fledgling cult...

Rodney said...

NoFog, you have provided no proof to substantiate your claims that I am in error regarding these things, or that I am delusional! The proof is in the pudding! I can guarantee you will provide no such proof and only continue to follow your baseless mantra in support of false doctrine and fables!

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Rodney
Just ONE detailed proof of the pudding, there are many more to follow.

Drnofog based his comment on all the MANY faulty interpretations you have been presenting, which between us, we have Biblically refuted. Your personal interpretations are theories of your own imagination, without the foundation of Scriptural backing whatsoever.

E.g. You claimed elsewhere that the Tribulation Temple is the Millennium Temple. But the Trib Temple is to be built by unregenerate men and their filthy lucre. Scripture plainly states that the Messiah will rebuild the Millennium Temple Himself at the start of the 1000 years covering an area of one square mile which = 640 Acres. This is proof enough. That is far too big to sit on the present Temple Mount, there just isn’t enough space, so God’s Mountain for The Temple is to be raised higher, and enlarged above all the surrounding mountains.

Presently, “Mount Moriah is a ridge that ranges in elevation from approximately 1969 feet at the south end of the junction of the Kidron and Hinnom valleys to a maximum of 2549 feet to the north. The Temple mount is at a height of approximately 2430 feet”

Having been there, I can assure you that Jerusalem, and Mount Moriah, is lower than the adjacent Mt of Olives. A distance below its summit is a viewing platform for Jerusalem and we looked across the Kidron valley and DOWN onto the Temple Mount. The Mount of Olives is made up of three low hills, averaging approximately 2700 feet in elevation. Mount Zion is approx 2533 feet in elevation. Today the Temple Mount is LOWER than the many hills around it and sits on about 45 acres. The south wall measures about 910 feet, the North about 1025, the east wall about 1520 and the west wall about 1580 feet in length.

So Rodney, using Scripture and a few maths, it should be obvious to you that you are wrong about this issue for as well as the inadequate height of Mt Moriah today, there is a vast difference between the present 45 Acres of the Temple Mount, to the 640 Acres that will be required to seat the Temple that Messiah Himself will build in the Millennium.

Sue

E.I. said...

p.s. 5280 feet in 1 mile

Rodney said...

E.I., sorry, having a problem following you here yet for the sake of a reply I will say evidently the earthquake recorded in Ezekiel 38:19,20 will dramatically change the landscape! I would also very much like any scriptural proof that identifies with the Lord constructing the Temple! This should be interesting!

Rodney said...

Case in point, many scholars have taught that the Lord will construct the Millenial Temple, yet there is no scriptural evidence that identifies with this! That is why I continue to stress the need to read the scriptures for yourself!

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney said “I would also very much like any scriptural proof that identifies with the Lord constructing the Temple! THIS SHOULD BE INTERESTING”
"Case in point, many scholars have taught that the Lord will construct the Millenial Temple, yet there is no scriptural evidence that identifies with this!"


Zechariah6:13 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, BEHOLD THE MAN WHOSE NAME IS THE BRANCH;(Jesus the Messiah) and he shall grow up out of his place, and HE SHALL BUILD THE TEMPLE OF THE LORD;
14.Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and HE SHALL BEAR THE GLORY, AND SHALL SIT AND RULE UPON HIS THRONE; AND HE SHALL BE A PRIEST UPON HIS THRONE: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney I have been over this before so you clearly dismiss comments out of hand, so fail to learn from your errors.

Ezek 38/39 Gog war occurs BEFORE the 7 year Tribulation. MANY earthquakes are mentioned throuout the 7 years until the very end.This is when God changes the topography of the earth. AT THE END, not the beginning. Not only do Scriptures state Messiah will build the Millennium Temple, they also say that God will build the Millennium Jerusalem.

Rodney said...

E.I., the temple that the Branch (Messiah) will build is not one of brick and stone, this is a depiction of the Church! You will notice that the Lord appears as High Priest here in this passage, yet during the millenial reign he will rule as King! This identifies clearly with the earliest prophetic passage depicting the divine plan in which even those afar off (Gentiles) will build in this temple (Church). This is clearly a reference to the building of the Church, not a physical temple! Told you it would be interesting!!!

Rodney said...

"And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more stanger or foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation fo the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together unto a holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye are also builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit"-Ephesians 2:17-22.

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney
The context concerns literal, physical Israel during the literal millennium ,and is clearly NOT the spiritual body of Christ, the Bride, now married as wife by this stage. Israel and the Church are distinct entities and by your reply the evidence of COVENANT THEOLOGY’S allegorising of prophecy is revealing itself.

Jesus is fully human and fully divine (hypostatic union) He is High Priest after the order of Melchizedek which is an eternal Priesthood. He is rightful King, yet to reign, but when the Father gives Him the Throne of David, His rule will begin as both High Priest and King forever.

The earthquake in Ezek 38 is for the sole purpose of destroying Gog’s armies and kingdoms This takes place BEFORE the 7 years.
The massive earthquake where God changes the entire topography of the land takes place AFTER Armageddon at the END of the 7 years which is when the mountain of the Lord will be raised high above all other mountains.

Rodney you have an imbalance of literal and allegorical interpretation and neither one is consistent. This is where your confusion of texts comes from – essentially you are making it all up as you go along.

It isn’t one bit interesting Rodney, it is wearisome and very sad to see.

DrNofog said...

Sorry I couldn't git back sooner as I've been offline since yesterday AM. My motherboard's ethernet chip decided to give up the ghost and I had to actually go out and buy a plug-in card since I could not order one online...

Rodney said "...NoFog, you have provided no proof to substantiate your claims that I am in error..."

Gee wiz Rodney! Let me check my big, long, black-list that I've been building up on you... ...and it's not like I follow you around at all, since I have always avoided FB from the gitgo, from early expos on it's gNu-Whirled-Oder, BeegBro, fine-print, -->permission-granting-contract to access **all** yer emails & then link all contacts & info found back to UNoWho...

And also, I do have a real life, and busy schedule to tend to, so I really have no idea wut all you've gotten yerself into, other than bits & pieces of yer usual track-record here, which I might see occasionally when I have the time to drop in...

But, hmmmm, let's see here... Where to begin, wheeeeerrrre to begin... ...well, at random, let's try this one:

DrNofog said...

Presupposition #1 [AKA False Premise, Straw man foundation for debate]:

****the Rapture will not occur until Israel is prepared to take the mantle!****

Since you've repeated this "mantra" in almost every one of your recent posts, you have clearly, without a doubt, set this up in your mind as a preconditioned "Event" that must happen prior, or simultaneously to the Rapture...

???Where in the 'world' [since it's not in the Word] did you come up wif dat?!?

Paul clearly points out in Romans 11:25 that the "End of the Ekklesia age" [the Rapture] is based **SOLELY** on a number and that number is known only to God, and definitely NOT tied to any other pre-supposed **"conditions"** or prophesied events!

And since that number is unknown to us and definitely NOT tied to any other prophetic event, and can happen at any time, that by definition, makes it imminent!

Yet, you have created a condition that prevents the Rapture & the end of the Ekklesia age, not based on the number that is known only to God Himself, but rather, clearly built upon yet another faulty prior presupposition!

DrNofog said...

Presupposition #2 [AKA False Premise, Straw man]:

"...The Lord will not leave the earth without a messenger..."

****yet that time [rapture] will not come until the Latter Rain is poured out upon Israel.****

While your 1st statement is absolutely true, you have made the assumption that it is inexorably linked to YOUR 2nd statement, which is the other faulty premise and thus not only putting words into the mouth of God, but also limiting His options as to His methods of "witnessing".

Let me share a principle that I became aware of awhile back:

God does not let anyone, Believers included, get past Genesis 3:1 [Did God really say that?!?]

The "Earth-dwellers" are found in the various, down-hill-spiral stages of destruction outlined in Romans 1:18-32, and Believers who have "issues" with certain things in His Word are found as babes sitting with Job and his buddies.

Allow me to quote a little from DrNofog's Authorized and Highly Paraphrased Version of the Bible:

"Dude, where were you when I laid the foundations of the universe?
Did you advise and direct me on how to do it?
So, seriously then, why would you even think to try to understand my methods?!?"

You also mentioned:

****I always picture the transition of Elijah to Elisha!****

So this is the seed that germinated these presumptions... Just because YOU see a parallel concept does not mean that God is in any way obligated to indulge your fantasy, yet you want to build a doctrine on yer imaginations and condemn others who see and point out the glaring problems wif it?!?

At this point I will leave off of your request to "provided proof to substantiate my claims", allowing you some time [and wiggle room] to ponder all this...
;)

Rodney said...

You guys just crack me up!! Maybe one day you will have at least one perspective that is your own, if you can wait 2,000 years for your imminent Rapture, perhaps then I can wait awhile for a self induced opinion regarding prophetic matters from all of you!

Still waiting!!!

Rodney said...

NoFog, here lies the fantasy (Doctrine of Imminence)!!!

Gideon said...

Rodney,

I would like to see you address DrNofog's challenge to you, and I know I'm not the only one here. A reply from you that simply says your views are false just doesn't cut it!

Please give us the scriptures that show signs that directly precede and tie the rapture to these prophecies.

I'm tired of seeing you accuse Christians on here of being nothing more than mindless followers. Why do you bother posting if you disagree with virtually everything discussed here??? It appears you are on a mission to "educate" us. We don't need your "education" or the way you talk down to others.

The funny thing about your accusation of us being followers, Rodney, is that we are followers, we follow Jesus Christ and receive instruction from God's infallible word found only in the Bible. So, again, enlighten us with these scriptures.

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney said
“…Maybe one day you will have at least one perspective that is your own…”

That means a perspective that is not in Scripture, called a personal interpretation of adding and taking, which is forbidden.
We are meant to agree with the Word,not be unique.

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney said "...if you can wait 2,000 years for your imminent Rapture..."

Yes! It is a long time to trust and believe Gods Word for the blessed hope for 2000 yrs for the imminent Rapture.

Your imminent Gog Magog wait lasted all of a week, at least until you made it known publically. Maranatha Gog Magog doesn't have the same ring to it for me!

Still, I doubt you will allow the facts to spoil all your other allegorical'perspectives' either. :-\

DrNofog and Gideon, it is so good to see both of your comments.

DrNofog said...

...and so you can only reply wif an absolutely fabulous non-answer in the vein of mockery!
Telling....soooooo telling!!!

Haven given you opportunity to reassess and/or defend yerself, I guess I can conclude that it did touch a nerve too close to home cuz you really don't have a legitimate answer for your false premises, --> aaaand you obviously don't like the expose...

[And as a 2ndary note; in all my years, although I do occasionally like to inject a level of wry humor into some of my attempts at VALID responses, I have never given blunt non-responsive, mocking retorts for answers!]...

So, continuing the dissection..er... evidences where I left off:

Let's examine the "Elijah to Elisha Mantle" analogy, as I don't discount that it would seem to be, on the surface, a credible 1st proposition.

However, it fails here:

The mantle is not placed directly on Elisha before, during, or after Elijah's departure.
The mantle rather, falls to the ground, and only after a period of time in which Elisha cries out and makes his prayerful exclamations does he "pick up the mantle" from the ground!

Now, expanding on your fantasy, after 2k + the 7yrs to come, how long would that "period of time" be, before Israel actually picks up da "mantle"... ...but then again, wouldn't that contradict your premise, and leave the world wifout a messenger for what... days... weeks... months??

Obummer, that doesn't work out well at all!!
[Ooops, force of habit... I meant to say "Oh, bummer!" and not to invoke the sacred name of our 1st Marxist, Muslim, Illegal-Alien-in-Chief...]

DrNofog said...

My, how you limit the methods of God!! [The Heavens declare the Glory of God... & ...so that they are without excuse...]

But, but... that "mantle"... muuuuusssst... be... past on to Israel... prior...

Rodney's Loss of logic in the order of events:

Again, since you have repeatedly emphasized that it must be "prior", let's ponder this for half a sec.

Nope! Any Jew who receives the Outpouring of the HS, which is synonymous with receiving a "Heart of Flesh", receiving the "New Covenant", receiving the testimony of Jesus as True Messiah "prior to our exit"... Well, duh!! That puts them in the Body/Bride of Christ and guess what?? ---> Poof, they go up wif us!

...and THAT would leave the world wifout a messenger [again] for what... days... weeks... months??

Obummer, that dog don't hunt neither!

Well let's see what God has ALREADY provided in the way of "messengers"!

Paul, speaking prophetically, referred to himself as "one born out of due time". How long was it from the stoning of Stephen to his receiving Jesus as Messiah?

And who was the "messenger" that kept queuing up the audio/video instant-replay image from his memory of Stephen being stoned?? - But I don't think we have to wait that long.

On the day of the Rapture, and every day thereafter, unless you're expecting everyone to have their A/V buffers flushed [AKA world-wide mass amnesia], can you deny that there won't be multiple 1000s... hundreds of 1000s, possibly even millions of peeps who's conscience and memories of "prior" [there's that word again] testimony, will be pricked by the HS "messenger" and will say "OMG!! What have I done!!! Lord Jesus, save me from what is to come!

Well, wouldn't that make them IM?? ...Instant Messengers!!

In Romans 11:4, Paul prophetically re-emphasizes the OT promise, and that even now in this current Ekklesia Age and after, in the Trib, that God "has reserved unto Himself more than 7k who have not bowed the knee to Baal"!!

Since Paul was well schooled in the Word, I have it on good authority that the 144k + 2 are also well schooled "True Torah Jews" who trust in YHVH, who are aware, and have heard the "message" of the Messianics and, unbeknownst to them, are awaiting their sealing.

And let's also not forget there's a whole world of multi-media record of "messengers": notes, papers, letters, tracts, books, DVDs, USB mem-sticks, etc., etc...

Gee Rodney, this all should have been a red flag, no-brainer to steer you away from your mantle fantasy!

You simply cannot put any fantasy conditions on how God chooses His "methods" to fulfill His Promises to Israel and Mankind!

Expected Imminently said...

Dear DrNofog

YOU squire - has lifted ei from the doldrums. :)

E.I. has actually been laughing OUT LOUD! Hubby is mazed and bewildered (more than usual) and ei shan't sleep tonight cuz ei keeps getting the giggles. Oh la! I LOVE your logic and ei feels so well 'tutored' on the prophecy front, as well as medicating on a luverly dose of common sense! Absolutely BRILL! :D

Rodney said...

Actually I commented that Israel must be prepared to accept the mantle prior to our exit! In this process, Israel must come to a position where their hearts are conditioned to accept it! The Prophet Malachi identifies this time, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet, BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse"-Malachi 4:5,6.

The Prophet Ezekiel also identifies with this time, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stoney heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgements and do them"-Ezekiel 36:26,27.

It is clear that a great event is required to condition Israel to acknowledge and return to the Lord, the Word of God provides the time in which this will occur! The Prophet Ezekiel declares a great battle to come that will cause Israel and all the nations to acknowledge the Lord! This great deliverance of Israel is recorded in Ezekiel chapters 38 & 39 in which her enemies from afar and surrounding her borders will be judged by the Lord mightily! In the aftermath of this battle Israel is prepared by God to fulfill their prophetic destiny as the natural branches will be restored, for the Lord God will pour out his spirit upon the house of Israel in concert with the exit of the Church in the Rapture (Romans 11:23/Ezekiel 39:29)!

There is no doubt that this transition will occur in the aftermath of the soon coming Gog/Magog battle yet regardless of what scriptures I provide, I can expect a negative response from all of you, that is always guaranteed! Some have the Spirit of God that brings understanding and some do not, though they are ever learning, they never come to the knowledge of the truth!

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney
Israel is NOW in the 1st WORLDWIDE re-gathering (Ezek 20:33-38) in UNBelief OUT of wrath (Nazi holocaust)which includes all the present ME troubles, being a burdensome stone AND Gog Magog in readiness FOR wrath which is the purpose of the 7 year 'Time of Jacob's TROUBLE, the final 70th Week Dan9:24.

The purpose of which is to bring Israel to repentance as a nation. First judgment BEFORE the 2nd and last, WORLDWIDE re-gathering Isaiah11:11 which occurs at Matt.24:31with the resurrection of O.T. saints, at the END of the 70th Week. It’s then that they (as a nation) will call upon Jesus to return, just as Jesus predicted in Matt23:39. Israel as a nation becomes regenerated AFTER the 70th Week, not before it.

You keep mixing prophecies related to the 70th Week and Armageddon campaign, and place them out of context to misapply to GogMagog. A remnant of Jews do believe by this time, (among them the 144002) because this remnant have witnessed the Rapture, God's deliverance from GogMagog AND Elijah has come to start the process back to belief, but NOT the majority, as it is these (the many) who make a Covenant with death. If at this point the nation of Israel was already regenerated, she wouldn't have agreed to A/c 7 year contract!

Ezek 20:33-38 = 1st Worldwide re-gathering in UN-belief includes Gog Magog and the Trib Temple to be destroyed.

Isaiah 11:11 = the 2nd Worldwide re-gathering in Belief, Matt24:31 which is after the Time of Jacobs Trouble, Jer 30:7 which is after the Armageddon campaign when Jesus returns to rescue the Jews and split the Mt of Olives in two to make a valley for them to escape A/c and flee to Petra.

After which massive earthquake and a new mountain of Zion (not the old Moriah site) shall be elevated to 1 mile with a 50 sq mile plateau on the top upon which Messiah shall build the vast Millenniun Temple. It is in here Israel shall be a nation of priests among the nations (as promised) with Jesus as the Priest/King forever WITH His Bride (Mrs Priest/King) and all nations shall have to ‘go up’ to worship God on Mount Zion which will be the highest mountain on earth (all others lowered)

Rodney said...

Perhaps E.I., you have never read the Gog/Magog prophecy of Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39, that would help greatly to eliminate your confusion! Specifically in chapter 39, it documents the Lord bringing all of scattered Israel out of their enemies lands, leaving nor more behind. Obviously the construction of the Third Temple will be a rallying point for those yet dispersed! Then as declared by the Prophet Ezekiel the Lord will pour out his Spirit upon the House of Israel! The Battle of Gog/Magog is not in the context of the 70th week or the Time of Jacob's Trouble that much is clear!

At this time I beg of you to read the scriptures that I am providing here, this will provide evidence of what I have said here, for it seems obvious that you have never truly took the time to read these scriptures which identifies the reason for your own confusion!

"When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have LEFT NONE OF THEM ANY MORE THERE. Neither will I hide my face anymore from them: for I have POURED OUT MY SPIRIT UPON THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, saith the Lord GOD"-Ezekiel 39:27-29.

This also is in the context of the Battle of Gog/Magog: "For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and THE MOUNTAINS SHALL BE THROWN DOWN, AND THE STEEP PLACES SHALL FALL, AND EVERY WALL SHALL FALL TO THE GROUND"-Ezekiel 38:19,20. There is no disputing the scriptures and the clear context provided here that identifies this prophecy being fulfilled prior to the introduction of the 70th week or time of Tribulation!

If then you will not accept this as truth, then obviously you do not accept the Word of God as truth, I will await your response with great anticipation!

Gideon said...

Rodney,

How ridiculous, condescending, and snotty this comment was:

"Perhaps E.I., you have never read the Gog/Magog prophecy of Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39, that would help greatly to eliminate your confusion!"

You really need to change the way you handle yourself in debates. Disagreements are fine, but you cross the line time and time again.

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney
Thanks for the advice so charmingly put! Don’t be surprised if your family start talking to you with that attitude. Children have a habit of copying their parent’s mannerisms.

I can agree Ezek 38/39 can be confusing until it is realised that Ezek turns his attention away from the Gog war BEFORE the start of the 70th week and looks toward the FINAL Armageddon conflict at the END of the 70th Week which will result in Israel’s restoration in Ezek 39:21-29. Instead of dealing with just a remnant of believing Israel; such as the 14400 who flee into the wilderness. God addresses the WHOLE house of Israel who eventually turn to Him to be saved in vs.22,23,25,29. EVERY Jew will be saved at that time, not just a remnant.

All the trials and tribulations are for the main purpose of bringing the whole house of Israel to restoration. First comes the judgments throughout the Time of Jacob’s Trouble; the restoration of the WHOLE house of Israel only comes AFTER they realise that Jesus IS their promised Messiah (repentance – a change of mind) and BY God’s Grace, put their faith in Him to save them (physically as well as spiritually) Jesus comes just as soon as they ask Him at the END of the 70th Week, which means THAT is when they are restored, and not 7 plus years earlier after Ezek. 38/39:1-20.

Matt 23:37-39 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! "See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, YOU SHALL SEE ME NO MORE TILL YOU SAY, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "

Read all of Psalm 118 – see verse 26 “...Blessed is he that comes in the name of the LORD...”

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney:
Regarding the grammatical rules for the interpretation of prophecy.

Pentecost: “Observe the perspective of prophecy. Events which bear some relationship to one another and are parts of the one programme, or an event typical of another so that there is a ‘Double Reference’ may be brought together into one prophecy even though separated widely in fulfilment”.

Feinberg “…due attention must be paid to perspective. Certain events of the future are seen grouped together in one circumscribed area of vision, although they are really at different distances. This is particularly true of the predictions of the so-called major prophets where many times prophecies concerning the Babylonian captivity, the events of the day of the Lord, the return from Babylon, the **world wide dispersion of Israel, and their future re-gathering from all corners of the earth** are grouped together seemingly almost indiscriminately”

“Failure to observe this principle will result in confusion!”

A. Frucht. 2nd Law: The Law of Double Reference.
“…This law observes that often a passage or a block of Scripture is speaking of two different persons or two different events that are separated by a long period of time. In the passage itself they are blended into one picture, and the time gap between the two persons or two events is not presented in the text itself. The fact that a gap of time exists is known because of other Scriptures, but in that particular text itself the gap of time is not seen. A good example of this law is some of the Old Testament prophecies regarding the First and Second Comings of Messiah. Often these two events are blended into one picture with no indication that there is a gap of time between the First and Second Comings.

Zechariah 9:9-10 is a good example of “The Law of Double Reference”. Verse 9 is speaking of the First Coming, but verse 10 is speaking of the Second Coming. These two comings are blended into one picture with no indication that there is a separation of time between them.

Another example is Isaiah 11:1-5. Verses 1-2 speak of the First Coming, while verses 3-5 speak of the Second Coming. Again the two are blended into one picture with no indication of a gap of time between the two.
Because many prophetic passages follow the principle of The Law of Double Reference, this is an important law to know…”

Ezek 38/39 are in this category of ‘The Law of Double Reference” and ‘The Rule of Perspective’.
The Bible is written in the method of the Hebrews. We in the West are under the influence of Greek Culture and do not easily adapt to the Hebraic style.

Rodney said...

E.I., I do not need a lecture on proper interpretation, there is no split here, there is no reference to the Day of the Lord or the Lord's Day! This entire prophecy as recorded is prior to the 70th week, that includes the ingathering of all the exiles and the outpouring of the Spirit of God upon the House of Israel! As I have also provided earlier in regards to the Prophecy of Malachi concerning the coming of Elijah, this also precedes that time! If all of you want to continue to ignore the scriptures as they are presented, including their context, that is your choice however I will not join you in such and endeavor!

Rodney said...

Gideon, it seems you offer very little here but to critic my behavior! It would be an awful suprise to see you offer anything other than this!

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney

Yes! The prophecy of Malachi DOES occur before the Day of the Lord, the Time of Jacob's Trouble. I have already said so. Elijah comes with the purpose of bringing Israel back into fellowship with one another and with God which will include the 14400 plus 2Witnesses, not just a remnant.

2/3rd of the Jews will be killed and only 1/3rd survive the horrors. It is this final third who will be re-generated in entirety when they finally believe in Jesus; which is why He returns.

If you are correct there is no split, then Gog Magog occurs at the END of the 70th Week because that is when 39:21-29 is sited, when Jesus returns to physically save the finally believing Israel, end the Trib, kills A/c and begins the Mill. Then He will build the Mill. Temple that is to be a square mile site, and a mile high – either a cube or a pyramid, requiring well over 600 acres of land. The New Mount Zion is also to be a mile high. The present Temple mount on little Mt Moriah is only about 45 acres, so it is impossible for the man-built Trib Temple to be the Mill. Temple. Look for distinctions in the text!

Putting Gog Magog at the end of the 70th Week presents other difficulties such as the 7 years needed to burn the weapons of Gog. The land must be purified before Mill re-building can begin, all ‘mop-up ops’ are fulfilled within the 75 day interval given after the end of the 7 years. There are distinct differences, Gog Magog is not the same as Armageddon, and Ezek refers to them both as per the rule of perspective. Look for distinctions in the text!

The Great earthquake that destroys Gog and armies along with their homelands, is not the same as the even Greater earthquake at the end of the 70th Week. Look for the distinctions. Similar does not = same!


As for not needing the rules of interp. We all need those rules because we in the West, Jew or Gentile, are led by Greek thinking. The laws explain Hebrew thinking to us Greek thinkers to help us understand 'Hebrewisms'.

Gideon has as much a right to participate in this as you or I. His observations are no less valid than yours, and he has made many intelligent contributions here.

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney
Concerning these verses.

Zech12:9 "It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10.And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Rodney, you have claimed that this is fulfilled after the Gog Magog battle PRIOR to the 70th Week. Yet this HAS to be timed at the END of the 70th week when they repent, and are born again, and so ask Jesus to return.

It is ONLY at the 2nd Coming at the END of the 70th week that saved Israel can then ‘LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY PIERCED’.

Expected Imminently said...

P.s.Which is AFTER Jesus rescues Jerusalem from the A/c himself; not from Russia and allies before the 70th Week.

Expected Imminently said...

Pps
Rodney.
Where in the Ezek38/39 verses is there a reference to a great mourning for sin? Nowhere! They are otherwise occupied burying the Gog army that takes 7 months and 7 years to burn the weapons.

Quite the opposite.

39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; NOW WILL I BRING AGAIN (70th Week) the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26. AFTER THAT (70th Week) they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27. WHEN I have brought them AGAIN from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations...
(2nd Worldwide re-gathering Isaiah 11:11,12; Matt24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27)

28. THEN shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. (That’s not the case after Gog Magog)

Vs 26. Refers to the mourning after the 2nd Coming AFTER they have looked upon the pierced Jesus and are regenerated. Zech.12:10.

Rodney said...

E.I., we will never agree it appears, for the scriptures are plain regarding this, yet you will apply another time frame that is not included in these passages! There is yet another dispersion as the AntiChrist seeks to destroy the remnant of the seed of the woman. In total there are three!

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Rodney

First of all, I don’t think these Scriptures are so ‘plain’; they require time to compare Scripture with Scripture prayerfully. If I were a detective weighing up evidence, the plan you have put forward does not bear scrutiny of the evidence. This is what I have tried to show you.

A total of three dispersions? All I can think is you have muddled ‘dispersion’ with ‘re-gathering’. God says there are only two WORLDWIDE re-gatherings of Jews back into the land, which is partial and in un-belief. Magog is part of the 1st and the 2nd is at the end of the Trib in Matthew 24:31; Mark 13: 27; foretold in Isaiah 11:11,12 which is a total re-gathering of Israel in belief, when the whole house of Israel will be saved.

Also, I wouldn’t cause the escape into the wilderness a ‘dispersion’. A dispersion concerns God’s judgment for sin against Him, but what you refer to is God’s provision of a safe haven for the believing remnant of Jews in Jerusalem. He sends a flood after the dragon that goes after them – that’s an escape for preservation, not dispersion in judgment. (Like the Rapture of the Church is)

Concerning the rule of Perspective; look out for a graphics that shows an O.T. Prophet looking into the future seeing it as a mountain range. He can only see the tops of the mountains and is unaware of the valleys between when he writes down what God shows him. This is perspective, Magog is the first ‘mountain’ with the top of the Armageddon mountain behind it, separated by a ‘valley’ of time.

Gideon said...

Rodney,

I came to the conclusion a while back to not debate with you any longer. Your arrogance and pride prevent you from seeing others points. So what is the use. As I have said, you only come here to "educate" us, which is ridiculous. If you don't disagree with all that is posted here, then, find a place that better suits you and your fringe views. I don't seek out post-trib sites to debate them everyday, what is the point? That said, someone here does needs to lecture you on your atrocious behavior. The way you are handling yourself in some of your posts is not in a Christian manner. It seems like you are the kind of person that cannot stand for people to disagree with your stances and call you out, if that is the case, you need to stop debating people altogether. Every time I see an article on here that relates to Gog/Magog or the Doctrine of Immanency I know before I look at the comments you have posted and what you have said is that we simply don't know what we are talking about, you know all and you were sent here to tell us the truth... SIMPLY OUTRAGEOUS....

Gideon said...

If you don't disagree with all that is posted here

Woops typo, that was supposed to be: "If you disagree with all that is posted here"

Expected Imminently said...

Rodney said “…Mike, some are not attacks as you claim, some are rebukes for doctrinal error! The Rapture will occur at its appointed time, yet that time will not come until the **Latter Rain** is poured out upon Israel. **The outpouring of the Holy Spirit witnessed on the Day of Pentecost was yet the Early Rain!** It will soon come that the Early Rain or former rain as well as the Latter Rain will be poured out in the 1st Month of the sacred Jewish Calendar, which is Nisan. **Joel 2:28,29 and Ezekiel 39:29** identifies with this. The Lord will pour out his Spirit in double portion upon the House of Israel!...”

Rodney, regarding the 4th post on this thread.

You have removed the Joel prophecy from its context which occurs when the WHOLE house of Israel is finally in the land, when God’s promised Kingdom on earth has begun with Jesus as Priest and King. This is for their promised ministry as a nation of Zadok priests to all the nations of the earth, under Yeshua the High Priest after the order of Melchizadek. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit poured out as in Joel 2:27, will facilitate Israel as they minister to the nations in the Mill. Temple.

The ‘Early and the Latter rain’ of Joel 2:23-27 does NOT refer to a spiritual down-pour, the context actually refers to the ‘early and the latter rains’. This is about the literal cycle of harvest rains, to refresh the greater Land of Israel, to provide streams in the desert, to turn it from the devastation of war, drought, famine, pestilence into a bountiful land of produce (as promised) It is AFTER God has done this that He will THEN pour out His Holy Spirit upon the people of Israel. vs 28. Presumeably after their new workplace, the Mill Temple, is completed under the direction of the Messiah.

Ezek 39:29 identifies with the 2nd Coming at the end of the 70th Week. At this time, God pours out the spirit of ‘grace and supplications’ (God’s favour & entreaties FOR favour ) Zech12:10 Is an outpouring of the Grace of God to Israel after they realise Jesus was/is their promised Messiah, and begin to ENTREAT for the favour of Messiah to return and save them as in Matt 23:37-39, which is when they see Him pierced, and mourn and grieve as for the loss of an only son. The ‘spirit of grace and supplications’ is NOT the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as in Joel2:28.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Rodney

To be fair and avoid confusion, because I have read more versions than I can count on the subject of my last comment, it may have been best to leave it out of this list. I am as sure as I can be it is correct, but then so is everybody else with their alternative views; so I acknowledge I may be wrong.

In all the many ideas, your stance stands alone having not a semblance of unifying Scriptures. The nearest is by those who put Gog Magog at the end of the 70th Week around the time of Armageddon; which has difficulties with timing issues. AFrucht places the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at the end of the 70th Week before the 2nd Coming, which at present, I cannot agree with.

Sue