Monday, April 16, 2012

United States in Bible Prophecy: Final Fate

Dr. David R. ReaganPDFBy

In the first half of this study into the United States in Bible prophecy, I looked into the possible biblical references to our nation's involvement and concluded we are not specifically addressed. In this second half, I'll speculate as to why most likely the country is absent.


A Speculation

I personally believe that the reason the U.S. is not mentioned in end time prophecy is because we will suddenly cease to be a world power and will therefore play no significant role in end time events.

The destruction of American power is most likely to occur in two stages. The first could be an economic catastrophe that will result from our out of control debt situation. Our god is the dollar, and the Lord is going to destroy that god when the weight of our debt collapses our economy.

The second stage could occur when Russia launches its invasion of Israel (prophesied in Ezekiel 38 and 39). I believe it is very likely that they will launch a preemptive nuclear attack against our nation, since we are the only country in the world that might possibly come to Israel's defense. This attack may be hinted at in Ezekiel 39:6 where it says that fire will fall on "those who inhabit the coastlands in safety."

The Russian attack will probably come from submarines deployed off our East and West coasts. Each Russian sub carries more fire power than all the bombs dropped in World War II. Such an attack would give us only seven minutes warning, not even enough time to launch a counter attack.

With the U.S. immobilized, the Russians will then attack Israel and, according to Ezekiel, their army will be wiped out supernaturally by God on the hills of Israel (Ezekiel 39:1-4). The greatest power vacuum in the history of mankind will be created almost overnight. The world will be gripped by panic.

Into that vacuum will step a dynamic, charismatic European political personality who will be energized by Satan. He will begin to rally the world to his support through his brilliant proposals for world peace. The world will be mesmerized by him (Revelation 13:8).


An Objection

Some argue that since the collapse of the Soviet government, Russia is now too weak to launch any attack against Israel or the United States. But the economy of Russia has rebounded due to the nation's vast oil reserves, and its military power is intact, including thousands of nuclear warheads!

In fact, Russia is far more dangerous to the world today than before the Soviet collapse. The increased danger is rooted in the instability of the government.

There is no hope for democracy in Russia because the societal values that are essential for the working of a democratic system do not exist. Nor is there any historical experience with democracy. Before the Commissars were the Czars.

As I predicted from the outset, the experiment with democracy did not last long. Vladimir Putin has created a new tyranny that is obsessed with territorial expansion. Putin will most likely resort to one of the oldest techniques of government — namely, stirring up trouble abroad to divert people's attention away from their domestic problems. That foreign trouble will ultimately be the invasion of Israel.


The Parallel of Habakkuk

I admit that I do not like this speculative scenario. But it seems the most likely chain of events to me. When it first occurred to me, I was particularly repelled by the idea of God using Russia to judge our nation. I asked, "How can a holy God punish those who are evil with those who are more evil?"

My quest for an answer to that question led me to the book of Habakkuk. I discovered that Habakkuk asked God the same question when God revealed to him that Judah would be judged by an invasion of the Chaldeans.

God never answered Habakkuk's question. He just called on Habakkuk to proceed in faith, believing that God knew best (Habakkuk 2:4). After a difficult spiritual struggle, Habakkuk stepped out in faith and said, "Lord, even if the Chaldeans completely destroy us, I will continue to exalt Your name" (Habakkuk 3:17-19).

The Chaldeans came. They destroyed the nation of Judah and the Temple of God. But where are the Chaldeans today? In the dust bin of history. Where are the Jews? Regathered to their land.

The point is that God has the wisdom and power to orchestrate the evil of Man to the triumph of His holy will in history. It is not for us to question His ways. Rather, it is for us to trust Him.


A Sobering Conclusion

But there is another point to consider. Are we really more righteous than the Russians? I think not.

In fact, I believe we are far more dangerous to the world spiritually than the Russians have ever been, for we are the world's moral polluter through the export of our sleazy television programs, our filthy movies, our satanic music, and our degrading pornography.

We are a people who have turned our back on God. The day of judgment for us will be far more severe than for the Russians, for "to those to whom much is given, much is expected" (Luke 12:48).


Another Possibility

There is another possible fate for the United States. If the Rapture were to occur today, we would be devastated because our nation contains more born again Christians than any other nation in the world — more than all of Western Europe combined. Further, we have many born again Christians in high positions of commerce and government. The Rapture would reduce our nation to chaos, removing us from the international scene as the world's dominant power.

We can hope and pray that this will be the destiny of our nation, because if it is not, we are headed toward outright destruction due to our rebellion against a gracious God who has blessed us more than any other nation that has ever existed.

63 comments:

Billy said...

If the Raputre is NOT the event that neutralizes America, if it is indeed an economic collapse or a nuclear attack, then how in the h--l I am to believe that the Rapture is an event to be talked about which offers hope and encouragement?

If I am not to be Raputured, but to die in a nuclear blast, or worse yet, the aftermath of a nuclear blast, then why did the Bible bother to tell me to have and spread hope and encouragement with Christians???!!!

NO! The Rapture must come before such judgement upon our nation. Christians must escape the wrath of God!

That is what I read in the Bible! I believe it to be true and stand by it. I have hope and encouragement in the Rapture!

Billy said...

The article clearly states that a nuclear attack would be an act of JUDGEMENT and WRATH upon the U.S. for SINS (via movies/music/porn/etc).

BUT, Christians are not, in fact, CAN NOT be the targets of the judgement or wrath of God for sin. For our sins were FORGIVEN ON THE CROSS! If God were to judge Christians and punish them with His wrath for sins then the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross would be nullified! NO! Christians were forgiven by the blood of Christ. Period.

Dr. Reagan uses Habakkuk as a way to explain a PRE-RAPTURE U.S. could suffer a Russian nuclear attack. I don't agree with the example. Habakkuk is an Old Testament story. Would such action God took in Habakkuk happen AFTER the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross? I don't think so. Otherwise the cross is meaningless and our sins were not forgiven and we must suffer the wrath and judgement of God for our sin.

That is my take on this. Would like to hear others.

And just so you don't take it the wrong way, Nathan, this is NOT an attack on Dr. Reagan or L&L, just a commentary on points of the article that I happen to disagree with. Thanks and God bless.

Billy said...

Can L&L point to a NEW TESTAMENT example of Christians being killed for the sins of a nation? I can't think of any off hand.

Susan said...

Wow-

This post gives no credence to "as in the days of Noah, and as in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah"! Respectfully, you really need to watch the sensationalism - yes, it is a possible that a nuclear blast could take us out - more likely through an EMP, but 1Thes5:9 says that"God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ". If God cared enough about Noah and his family, and Lot and his family (to remove them before judgement fell), don't you think He would care for the nation that has more believers per capita than anywhere on the face of the earth? Where's the hope and comfort for believers after we've been nuked?

In my opinion, true Christians are already suffering in this nation through the ungodly policies promulgated in Washington, the rampant degradation of our culture, and both the subtle and overt persecution of Christians in our society by the media, apostate churches, atheism, and secular humanism. Do you really think God is going to allow us to be nuked too?

Anonymous said...

Our hope is to be raptured before the Tribulation. But why do we get so self rightous to think we will not suffer persecution for our faith. Did not all the Apostles, except John die for their faith in God? I think it a little presumptious to think we are too good to have to under go testing and trials. Is it not a fact that Jesus tells us we will suffer for His name? I pray daily to have the strength in Christ exhibited by our persecuted brethern in Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Lybia, etc, etc. Susan, in my opinon all that you mentioned are mere birth pains. The wrath is the Tribulation, not any judgement this nation may suffer from years of telling God to get out of our way, we don't need you.. I pray for the strength of the martyrs. More blessed would we be if we had the faith in our Lord that Islam has in Allah, aka satan. Again maranatha, maranatha, maranatha.

Billy said...

Anon,

No one said Christians don't suffer in this world. What I said is we do not suffer the WRATH or JUDGEMENT of God which is different from what you are talking about.

The Bible says

"...we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words." and

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

and "May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word."

and "the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one."

and "Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you."

Are these not encouraging and hopeful words? Based on this I can't see a message of something like the following non-Biblical opposing view:

Be hopeful and encouraged for you are saved but becasue there is a liquor store down the street from you selling porn, though you believe in me, you will be burned up in a nuclear cloud when I send my judgement and anger and wrath upon the world. You were hopeful that you would escape my wrath but the rapture turned out to be an illusion and now you will suffer side by side with the haters of God. (Note: I AM NOT saying that is what the article said, it is part of my discussion point)

These are different messages that can be put out there. The Word of God that offers hope and encouragement that believers will be Raptured and escape the wrath of God or one that says we will suffer with the non-believers when the wrath comes.

The wrath IS coming...but believers in Christ on Earth here and now will NOT experience it. We will have been taken away by our wonderful loving Lord Jesus Christ!

Billy said...

So, if Christians are not to suffer the wrath of God then one can conclude that the Rapture will occur before God's wrath is released upon the U.S. in judgement, so I think it is the Rapture that will eliminate the U.S. as a world power followed by the wrathful judgement/s.

Rodney said...

Billy, as a Christian we have no need to be fearful, to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord! None of us wants to die, being a Christian does not mean we can escape this for we all have an appointed time.
War is filled with the death of innocents, this has little to do with the wrath of God and more to do with the heart of men.

Rodney said...

Billy, do not be troubled my friend, for the Word of God indicates in Ezekiel that the West observes the Gog/Magog coalition gathering and through diplomatic channels inquires of their intentions. There is no scriptural backing to support the idea of any preemptive strike by Russia or any other member of this coalition against the United States.

With all the U.S. naval power presently posted in Asia as well as the Persian Gulf any attack on the U.S. mainland would muster an immediate response launched from nuclear submarines and bombers. Not to worry though, it just simply will not occur. The Gog/Magog invasion force is being gathered by the hand of God against Israel not against the United States.

The belief of a first-strike by Russia against the U.S. prior to their planned invasion of Israel is nothing more than a cooked up fantasy and the Prophet Ezekiel provides proof. Hope this make you feel better Billy, we can have confidence in the scriptures.

Susie said...

Billy, i agree with i that Christians will have been raptured before trib judgement. But God does allow certain acts (9/11) as judgements against a nation which has turned its back on Him. As a call to repentence i think.
I totally agree with rodney that the oil discovery is the "hook in the jaw" in which the Lord will bring his beloved Israels many enemies against her. Then.. we all know...........
I personally think the united states will be in chaos cuz of the rapture and not much influence in end time prophecy. I may be wrong, of course, thats just my opinion.

Susie said...

Sorry... should say.. agree with u... not i..... :)
MARANATHA!!!!

Billy said...

Susie and Rodney,

I actually agree with both of you. Thank you for your words of encouragement and hope, as the Bible says we should offer this to each other!

Rodney said...

The judgement applied by the hand of the Lord God against the Gog/Magog invasion force is similar to that brought on the wicked inhabitants of Sodom. The Lord did not require the use of man made weapons to bring such destruction nor will he require the use of modern nuclear weapons at this junction either. This same method is used to explain the destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 17 yet a ruinous heap illustrates an earthquake, for a nuclear weapon disperses material in a large debris field. A ruinous heap suggests walls falling upon themselves as their foundation is removed.

Matt said...

Good article, but when is America taken out?

Both Russia and China have been telling us and hinting that an attack on Iran will bring retaliation from them.

Israel attacks Iran in the summer of 2012. Iran's proxies attack Israel. Syria uses chemical weapons on Israeli cities. Israel responds with nuclear weapons. Israel's neighbors are obliterated.

This scenario invites retaliation from Russia and China the following spring. The retaliation would come at night for no apparent reason - like a thief in the night. One day everything is fine, then by the next day America is gone.

Consider Isaiah 17 and 18.

Track the real world progression to war at 1913Intel.Com

SeanOsborne said...

Dr. Reagan,

Is there any possible explanation as to how is this glaring dichotomy from your article is possible"

"I believe we are far more dangerous to the world spiritually than the Russians have ever been, for we are the world's moral polluter through the export of our sleazy television programs, our filthy movies, our satanic music, and our degrading pornography."

and...

"...our nation contains more born again Christians than any other nation in the world — more than all of Western Europe combined. Further, we have many born again Christians in high positions of commerce and government."

How is it possible that an America so chock full of the Bride of Christ is "far more dangerous to the world" than the nation which is even now giving birth to Vladimir 'Gog of Magog' Putin???

I believe that a post-Harpazo America will be the real-world backbone of the Antichrist's demonic-led awesome globe conquering military power. In this I believe there is a very key role for a post-Harpazo America.

John Mushenhouse said...

1 peter 4 ;12-13
Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.

Salvation has never been a you will never suffer merit badge.

Salvation is Jesus will be there with us regardless.
Too many people are holding off the false hope of the rapture as an easy way out. I hope that it is true as nobody wants to suffer. But it is like the word of faith people claiming that you never have to suffer. Sounds good, but to the christian the trusting that Jesus will never leave us or forsake us is the real hope and victory.

So Phil 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am,
therewith to be content.

One can only be content by trusting in Jesus and not in fear of death, suffering or destruction.

Susie said...

Personally, i am not afraid of anything because i no the Lord will take care of us.... however..... i am looking forward to the rapture because the bible says it! I believe it! Its our blessed hope (imo)
Call it escapism or whatever.... if for some reason the rapture comes after the trib starts... WHO CARES!!! remember everyone how secure we really are..and the scripture in phil john quoted above is truely encourageing and gives me a fresh dose of peace!
maranatha!!! maranatha!!!

I praise GOD we wil be at the marriage celebration during the trib:):):)

Billy said...

Rodney said "The Lord did not require the use of man made weapons to bring such destruction nor will he require the use of modern nuclear weapons at this junction either."

I agree. Too often you see people say the wrath of God will be via human tools of destruction. I see it differently. I see God, in the end times, stepping in and dishing out his judgemental wrath using His own methods, just like he did to the Egyptians and Sodom & Gamorrah.

I also believe this because when Russia and it's evil partners are destroyed by GOD, then Israel will KNOW that it was GOD that stepped and saved them, not the weapons of men.

Billy said...

Sean said "How is it possible that an America so chock full of the Bride of Christ is "far more dangerous to the world" than the nation which is even now giving birth to Vladimir 'Gog of Magog' Putin???"

Good question.

God Bless America!

Billy said...

John M said "Too many people are holding off the false hope of the rapture as an easy way out."

John, I pray and hope for the following...Jesus talking about the end times in Luke 21:

v36: "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Yes, John, as Jesus said, I pray to be able to ESCAPE all that is about to happen!

Anonymous said...

We are now in the dispensation of God's Grace. What we and the world may deserve is covered by this undeserving Grace of God. Discipline, yes. Judgment no, not until after the Rapture of the Church will that wrath come upon all the world,and the earth dwellers, not just the States. what is written here is scaremongering, faithless sensationalism purely for effect!

John Mushenhouse said...

Billy,

I am just thankful that Jesus loves me and is always doing good for me. I am further thankful that I don't think about the bad that will happen as I am living in the present under the guidance and mercy of the Lord. I am not agaisnt the rapture ( I look forward to meeting Jesus), I just have the Hope of Glory
col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Christ in me. With him I can do and withstand all things. I know God uses events, but I don't look to any certain event as I have the hope of Glory already within me.

It (Jesus) is really wonderful.Sometimes in all this end time interests, we seem to forget about the Lord who is timeless.

Susie said...

John, ur comment compelled me to point out one of my favorite scriptures that i have in my heart always.... psalm 91:1 ... he who dwells in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow o the Almighty..... AWESOME!!!

Susie said...

Oops..... "of" not "o"

Nathan Jones said...

@SeanOsborne, not speaking for Dr. Reagan here, but the current moral schizm that has divided our country so sharply as of late to me demonstrates perfectly how we as a nation could have so many Christians and yet at the same time be so vile. It seems like we are Jekyll and Hyde. After the Rapture, only Hyde will remain.

Billy said...

I just came across this article at Foxnews that ties in perfectly (I think) to Nathan's comment "but the current moral schizm that has divided our country so sharply as of late to me demonstrates perfectly how we as a nation could have so many Christians and yet at the same time be so vile. It seems like we are Jekyll and Hyde."

I'll post the link with some highlights:

"The survey found that while 82 percent of Americans revere the Bible as sacred literature, that number is down slightly from a year ago when 86 percent thought so."

"And when asked whether The Bible contains "everything a person needs to know to live a meaningful life," 69 percent agreed either strongly or somewhat. That number was down also from the previous year, when 75 percent responded the same way."

"The survey found that when asked about certain spiritual truths, nearly half (46%) of Americans couldn't differentiate between the teachings of the Bible, the Koran, or the Book of Mormon.

Vest says, "There are probably five Bibles on every shelf in American homes. Americans buy the Bibles, they debate the Bible, they love the Bible... they just don't read the Bible."

That last line says it all for me..."they just don't read the Bible." And, sadly, I admit I am too often one of those that have multiples Bibles that can sit unread for way too long, way too often. If myself and anyone else guilty of that line would make the effort to read the Word more often (and of course, follow through with it in our lives) then this country could once again become the nation that I once knew it to be. There is a civil war, not violent, but a war nonetheless for the soul and destiny of the nation between Judeo-Christian values and everything non Judeo-Christian. I fear that war is being lost.

The link to the article is http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/18/state-bible-2012/?test=latestnews

LambLion Newb said...

Interesting article. Upon reading the comments, I get the sense that a lot of folks come here to engage in a battle of wits with each other and Dr. Reagan. Some seem a bit sharp in tone. Is it a quest for truth, or an intellectual arm wrestling tournament?

Susie said...

We discuss very serious things and try to hash stuff out. We make eachother think.
Im my opinion..... we are real. Real followers of Christ.... :) :) :)

Billy..... i was wrestling with not getting into scripture enough recently and signed up for a free daily bible study that i receive in a monthly magazine at.. in touch ministries.org
Put together by charles stanley. I gotta tell ya, what a HUGE blessing it has been and has helped me focus on my daily walk with the Lord. (Im not trying to sound critical at all or anything.. just wanted to share that)

Billy said...

L&L Newb,

It is a thought process for greater understanding of the truth.

The vast spectrum of comments here make you think. Since we are imperfect human sinners trapped in bodies of flesh we are subject to the negative emotions, feelings and personal points of view that everyone has.

This can lead to what I would call lively, spirited, sometimes heated but NEVER nasty or cruel discussion.

Opposite to the implication of your post, many times people that come here say we are mindless robots taking marching order from Dr. Reagan and/or Nathan. Not true. Many of us have had quite strong disagreements with Lamb & Lion at times.

Susie is right. We are the real deal. We don't try to be something we're not. We don't just sit around and sing kum-by-ya all day. We come here to learn and think and grow.

So, please...join in. You're free to say what you really think and though you may get disagreement and rebuttal or agreement and praise, in the end, everyone here, in my opinion, benefits from this wonderful forum that is so excellently administered by Nathan!

God bless you!

Billy said...

Susie...thanks. Didn't take your comments as critical. Besides, I'm more critical on myself than you or anyone here could ever be.

Billy said...

Lamb & Lion Newb,

I wrote you a nice lengthy response that got lost somewhere between my keyboard and the screen.

So instead of trying to type it all again I'll just say "ditto" to what Susie said.

God bless and welcome!!!

Rodney said...

LambLion Newb, you must understand our position, as students of Bible Prophecy we are always looking to focus on what the scriptures declare not applied drama or theatrics. Today many recognized scholars are pumping out books on End Time events like a soda vending machine. They consist of 25% scripture and 75% speculation with a handsome helping of sensationalism.

As a believer in Christ my focus is on the scriptures as guide and a personal rule of mine. Allow me to give an example, many of the books hitting the market today continue to enlist the belief that Israel will strike Iran to prevent a nuclear holocaust yet what saith the scriptures? The scriptures indicate that Iran will come with Russia and a large Islamic alliance against Israel and the West will observe them assemble and prepare to strike.

The Lord God declares by the mouth of Ezekiel that the Russian leader (Gog) will form this alliance and arm them as well as guard against any threats to its members. "Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them"-Ezekiel 38:7. We have already seen evidence of this with Russian naval forces as well as ground troops moving into Syria. Russia is also in a defensive posture concerning Iran. Russia will not allow Iran or Syria to fall to Western or Israeli hands, nor will their strategic partner China.

The threat of an Israeli strike on Iran as well as the tightening noose forming in the Persian Gulf, Gulf of Aden and Indian Ocean consisting of U.S./N.A.T.O. air and naval forces along with various Sunni allies have escalated tensions. Russia and Iran are fully aware of what is at stake and are moving with all speed to ensure they have strategic advantage.

The Western alliance currently formed will find themselves betrayed by one of their own as indicated also by the Prophet Ezekiel as Turkey joins with the Russian led alliance against Israel. The attempt by the West to eliminate two proverbial birds (Iran and Syria) with one stone will bring the rapid deployment of the Gog/Magog alliance. "Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?"-Ezekiel 38:13.

Rodney said...

Israel will not get the chance to strike Iran, Russia has staged electronic surveilance and observers in Syria and Lebanon to identify any advanced movements by Israel and is prepared to take action if necessary. There is no indication that Iran suffers any military attack by Israel prior to their advance to the borders of Israel as ordered by the hand of the Lord God. Russia has also staged a military presence in Armenia to block any Israeli or Western attack from the north against Iran.

The Lord God has already mapped out what is to come all we have to do is read it. All the players are presently in motion for this End Time drama to take place and we can see it is fast approaching.
All I am saying my friends is that it is time to put down the books and pick up the Bible. The truth always eliminates being led astray by fables. Trust in it with all your heart, God does not lie.

Susie said...

Hi rodney! Personally, i read the bible everyday and love it. Having said that, i dont read books that r fables. I read some books by very intelligent teachers.. one example being ed hindson. The reason i look to solid teachers...few that there are....... is to further understand israels history. I let the Spirit guide and teach me. I dont adhere to opinions or mere speculations. I agree that its all there in his Holy word. But sometimes i need someone to clarify a thing or two. Just like when i ask questions here!! I Praise God we have a place to communicate about our soon coming Savior:)
Helping people study who may not have the same knowledge level doesnt make the author a fable teller. (Altho im fully aware they r out there )

Matt said...

Rodney said: "Israel will not get the chance to strike Iran, Russia has staged electronic surveilance and observers in Syria and Lebanon to identify any advanced movements by Israel and is prepared to take action if necessary."

Missiles!

Submarine launched cruise missiles and missiles launched from Israel.

Please do not study current events, and ignore what the leaders of Russia and China are actually telling us. Please ignore their threats of nuclear retaliation over Iran and Syria. No need to worry because you are going to raptured out of here real soon.

The Rapture

People expecting the rapture to save them may want to consider - what if their understanding of the rapture is wrong? What if they get the timing wrong? It's not like this stuff is clear.

Will God not rapture you out of your fallout shelter?

Will God say, he didn't have faith in the rapture timing so I won't rapture him?

In reality, I think the rapture is a convenient excuse to do nothing.

amc said...

”In reality, I think the rapture is a convenient excuse to do nothing.”

As an ex postie who didn’t want to believe in the possibility of a pretrib rapture, I find that statement shortsighted. You’re making assumptions and putting all pretribulational believers in the same bucket. The same could be said of those who think the tribulation/Antichrist is still in the distant future. In fact, the imminent expectation of Christ coming for His church should motivate one to be prepared to meet Him.

Susie said...

Matt..... the rapture is an excuse to do nothing?????? Ok.... what is it we (who believe in the rapture) are to be doing? And... have u actually read the bible on this???? The rapture is a reality in the word of God. The only thing thats really debateable is when it will occur. NOT IF!!!
Imo, God wont leave ANY of His church here .... we are ALL goin who are true believers!!

Matt said...

Susie,

A lot of people are confused about the rapture. In particular it is the timing. You may have it all figured out, but people seem to arrive at several different answers. If the Bible were clear, then there wouldn't be all this confusion.

What if you are wrong about the timing of the rapture?

Personally, I want an entire chapter laying out how I don't have to worry. I want it crystal clear that I will escape the bad stuff. Since that chapter is not in the Bible, that means I'm worrying.

What should you be doing?

If you knew World War III were a year or two away, what would you do? Nothing?

Let me see. In my first comment here I explained how Russian and Chinese leaders have effectively threatened World War III over Iran and Syria if they are attacked. Israel is planning to attack Iran soon - probably this summer. That means World War III may arrive in the next year or two.

I assume that you just don't believe me. Let me give you a couple of quotes:

Russia has given Iran its bear hug and warns Israel and the West that an attack on Tehran would be considered an attack on Moscow. The threat heightens the prospect of World War III in the event of a military strike on Iran.

“Iran is our neighbor,” Russia’s outgoing ambassador to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, told reporters in Brussels. “And if Iran is involved in any military action, it’s a direct threat to our security.”


As the United States and other nations grapple with how best to stop Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon, a high-ranking Chinese military official has raised the stakes considerably on any possible military action.

On Dec. 4, according to a report in Press TV, a news network owned by the Iranian government, Chinese rear admiral and prominent military commentator Zhang Zhaozhong said, “China will not hesitate to protect Iran even with a third world war.”

Take a look at this next quote:

Russia’s foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, warned Wednesday that outside encouragement of antigovernment uprisings in the Middle East and North Africa could lead to “a very big war that will cause suffering not only to countries in the region, but also to states far beyond its boundaries.”

Putin himself said the scale would be unimaginable. Why?

I could go on and on with page after page of material. One from a Russian general who says Moscow is ready to use military power to protect Iran and Syria. Another from President Hu of China warning his military to prepare for combat - war.

Your pre-tribulation rapture had better happen soon, or you are in trouble. For myself, I moved my family to Switzerland a year ago. Our apartment complex has a fallout shelter, plus I have food storage.

Nathan Jones said...

Appreciate the give and take explanation concerning our conversations here, Billy. Well said!

Billy said...

Matt,

I believe and hope that the Rapture has to occur BEFORE God pours out his wrath on the world.

I believe this because forgiven Christians are not destined to suffer ever...no way, no how, can't happen...the wrath of God since the blood of Jesus has made us NOT GUILTY in the eyes of God. It is impossible for God to be angry at us or else the cross was meaningless.

Having said that, I don't think Christians are exempt from everyday suffering, disease, weather (which is an ACT of God at this time in history, not WRATH of God), etc. But any event that is the direct wrath of God manifesting his anger can not harm a believer in His Son Jesus. Anyone who thinks otherwise should wonder if they really truly believe in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Billy said...

Even in Revelation it says "They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

God does not want His wrath to hurt Christians.

Nathan Jones said...

@Matt, for why I believe a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the best argument for the timing of the Rapture, check out my article Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Wow! Moved to Switzerland. Isn't it really, really expensive to live there? But beautiful, right?

If we were to live into the Tribulation I wouldn't choose a mountainous region, even though I love the mountains. The Sixth Seal Judgment of Revelation 6 has the world seeking the mountains for safety, but the "great earthquake" will cause "every mountain and island" to be "removed from its place." The Seventh Bowl Judgment of Revelation 16 at the end of the Tribulation finishes the destruction of the mountains causing "the mountains could not be found". By the Millennial Kingdom, the earth will be a plain and only Jerusalem will be lifted geologically to great heights (Isa. 40:4; Zech. 14:10).

Susie said...

amen billy!
And so eloquently stated!

Matt, i do not disagree that gog/magog is on the horizon. I dont mean to sound apathetic at all. Im always learning and growing in the Lord. Yes, i believe the rapture is pre-trib. However, whenever it happens, really doesnt worry me. I have total peace in Christ and trust him completely. So i dont stress over all of it. I find it very intreging and that why im compelled to study current events. I try to keep focused on pressing in to God... and the blessed hope of the his coming.
I am a student for sure!!

Susie said...

Nathan, awesome article on pre-trib view. I have heard us being accused of saying the Holy Spirit is being removed as the restrainer. I knew that was wrong, but after reading that article u pointed out above, i can explain my belief better! Thanks
And i love the dvd u sent this month with ur prophecy insights! Im giving it to my teenager so hopefully his interest will be provoked! :) excellent job

Nathan Jones said...

Thank you for those encouraging words, Susie! So good to hear the article and Insights video was a blessing to you and your son.

Anonymous said...

Hi there Susie.
Thanks for the recommendation of Charles Stanley. On your say so, I googled and found this you tube link. GREAT! I still have a million questions but this is an important start for me.
God bless you for saying about it, now my hope is renewed.

Can a saved person backslide and be lost .ask dr. Stanley.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrhFrQJritc&feature=related

Answer is NO!!!! :)

Susie said...

Anon, u have answered a prayer in my life. Im a widow and alone most of the time. Since I'm
handicapped i cant get atound too well. Now, im not complaining, i love my life and my situation draws me closer to the Lord because i have lots of time to seek him and i have to rely on him for absolutely evergthing. Getting to my point tho, i have been heavy in my heart yearning to be a blessing to someone .... anyone. So now im all weepy and praising God with a loud voice thanking him... :) God Bless You :)
P.s. thats right we cannot lose our salvation... and think about THIS.... this situation is probably one of those awesome things the Lord did not only for me... but as u can see, his love just worked THRU you... o my.. Thank you Lord

Susie said...

Anon, did u sign up for his free monthly magazine? Its wonderful and has daily bible studies for every day life. I absolutely love it:)

Matt said...

Nathan,

Yes, Switzerland is very expensive.

Thanks for the link on your pre-tribulation article.

I believe in the rapture, but I'm a little fuzzy on the timing. I just hope for the best and plan for the worst.

Susie said...

Nathan, i wonder sometimes .... u no how God told daniel to "shut up the book until the end time"?....... do u think the revelation of the rapture timing is purposely hidden? And if so, then it makes me wonder why.. since it seems to cause di ision amongst believers.????? Thanks!!

Susie said...

Nathan i should have added ... i know its imminent.... but i wonder why that is crystal clear to me, but not to some who love him as much as i do ......????? Ya no????

Billy said...

Susie,

I know you directed your question to Nathan but if you don't mind I would say that if we knew, some of us, maybe even me though I would pray not, would think "Well, the Rapture is going to happen on "x" date so until then I just hang on to my sinful way and enjoy the worldly pleasures until about a month or so before the Rapture. THEN I'll clean up my act."

But if it can happen anytime then that can be a good motivation to be on guard. I know sometimes when I find myself sinning I think "what if the Rapture happened right now...I would be ashamed". Because since it happens in the twinkling of an eye you will likely know what you were doing just before you were snatched away.

Susie said...

Bily, first of all.... i always want and value ur imput. And secondly, what an excellent point! Even tho i know ur right, u made me reconsider the truth of what ur saying. I feel the same way. I kinda wrestle with (and pray about) the fact that the trib timing causes a division at times within our body of Christ. Kinda bums me out cuz i have found that many churches wont even teach on this blessed hope just because of that.

Nathan, have u ever considered putting a lil 15 min bible study involving prophecy subjects in the lamplighter!??????

Nathan Jones said...

Susie, what always surprises me is that Jesus in Matthew 24:36 stated even the timing of His return was kept from Him, though I'd imagine once Jesus was resurrected and fully restored that information was again given Him.

God's keeping the timing of the Rapture close to the vest, I'd imagine because He wants the believers continually watching and hoping and the unbelievers remaining in the dark for judgment to come upon them.

Susie said...

Nathan, yes of course i agree. Thanks:)

SeanOsborne said...

Nathan,

I understand and appreciate the "Jekyll & Hyde" response.

My question came as a result of my studies regarding America and the Harpazo which reveal that up to 100 million Americans willingly confess to being born-again or evangelical Christians.

I agree with 'Hyde' being the dominant remnant after the Harapzo, but I also believe that America will be a major source for the vast number of the 70th Week Saints.

Sean

Rodney said...

Ask yourselves one question, "If the Gog/Magog battle were to occur today, who would fill the power vacuum"? The United States will be uniquely positioned to take control of the regional sphere of North Africa, Middle East and the Caucusus as well as Central Asia. With control of the resources in such a vast area we can identify quickly that the United States of America will have access to greater prosperity then ever experienced.

The only threat to this increased power and energy monopoly would be that of Asian powers that rely heavily on the resources of the Middle East and Central Asia. While key members of Europe will also have a stake in this, they do not have the dominant military power to maintain security, there is no N.A.T.O. without the United States, that is a fact!

Though this is mere speculation, what other military power could fill the vacuum and guarantee the security of these resources? If true, we can clearly see how the United States can fit within the prophesied category of a modern Babylon center of global commerce and religious harlotry. Europe nor Iraq has or will ever have the capability to maintain or exercise such power.

Rodney said...

Time to stop looking for a revived Roman Empire and a European AntiChrist. We need look no further then right here in the nation we presently dwell. There will be no revived Roman Empire but a revived Babylonian Kingdom under the direction of the AntiChrist centered in what is now the United States. This will be the Kingdom of the AntiChrist, the little horn that will come up within the midst of the 10, then will conquer three kingdoms (regional spheres) and the rest of the seven will submit to a new global Babylonian hegemony!

America has a defined position in Bible Prophecy as Mystery Babylon and the central command center of the AntiChrist! Remember that Daniel the Prophet identifies that the Prince that shall come, will come from the people (offspring) that destoryed the Temple and the Holy City Jerusalem! This does not identify with the geographical location of those people, yet that he will come from the bloodline!

Rodney said...

What nation now proudly exalts the symbol of imperial Rome of which the legions of Rome would hoist high as they faced their enemies? The Eagle is this symbol, the United States claims this heritage.

Anonymous said...

/ Hi LAMB & LION. Any reaction to this? Saw it on the web. Kendra /

PRETRIB RAPTURE SECRETS

How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He's now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. ("The Rapture Question," by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn't dare to even list, in its scripture index, the too-hot-to-handle Acts 3:21!) Since Jesus can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends (Acts 2:34,35 echo this), the rapture therefore can't take place before the end of the trib! (The same Acts verses were also too hot for John Darby - the so-called "father of dispensationalism" - to list in the scripture index in his "Letters"!)
Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The "rest" for "all them that believe" is tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who'd be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which is Israel's posttrib resurrection!)
Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this "rapture" was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!).
Other Google articles on the 182-year-old pretrib rapture view include "Pretrib Rapture Politics," "Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes," “Famous Rapture Watchers,” "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," “X-Raying Margaret,” "Edward Irving is Unnerving," “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” "Walvoord Melts Ice," “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" – all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books).

Robert Widby said...

The "catching away" or rapture (rapio) does not require Christ to leave Heaven. Believers made righteous by Christ are taken to Him. He does not return to earth, we go to be with Him where He is. There are rewards to be presented, the marriage supper, and wedding itself, all occurring in Heaven. The real sweet part is: the twinkling of an eye is done in 11/100 of a second, and that is the time it takes for us to be with Christ. It should not be pictured as if the rapture takes a matter of minutes. The twinkling of an eye is exactly what it means. You can't blink, sneeze, or snap your fingers any where near the instantaneous less-than-a-nano-second time frame that is the rapture! Come, Lord Jesus.

Nathan Jones said...

@Anonymous, I'd reply with this article - Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Ben said...

It's funny...no I mean it's sad that everyone is pointing the finger at other countries and trying to figure out who the bad guy is or who is going to bomb us.

Our country and the U.N. are systematically taking over the middle east and every other country that doesn't want to be under our control. If we can't get them under economic control with our central banks, then we invade.

Our country is the military wing of the SATANIC NEW WORLD ORDER.

A nuclear bomb is the least of our worries right now. Our country is on the brink of a total economic collapse and then watch the small arms mayhem start.

The only way the Antichrist will be able to come into power, is an old method called "crisis and then a solution". When they are starving and cant survive, people are going to be begging to get back to a normal peaceful life. All the world will then unite.

It really amazes me that anyone would even think we ever had a Christian country. It was founded from the beginning on murder,deceit and secret societies. Just look up George washington in his Masonic apron. http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/george_washington_masonic_aprons.htm

Regardless of what you think of this country, we...(this country)... were hijacked a long time ago. It's not Democrat,Republican or Christian. It's Satanic. How many babies do we kill every year with abortions? Who stands up and defends them?! We are too busy cheering on our murderous troops with rabid patriotism. I don't remember Jesus ever talking about killing for the stars and stripes.

We'll be lucky if anyone gets raptured out of this wicked country. When is the last time you went to jail for protesting abortions or predator drones dropping bombs on children's heads.

You live by the sword....You die by the sword.

Enough said...now back to fantasy land.