Tuesday, May 8, 2012

Christians Declare Speaking Out Against Homosexuality Is Unloving

Nathan JonesPDFBy

I was all prepared for a firestorm of protest from the pro-gay lobby when we published Dr. Reagan's article on homosexuality as an end times sign in our e-newsletter and blog. What I wasn't prepared for was how the primary opposition didn't turn out to be gays, but instead were fellow Christians who "love Jesus more than anything in this world."

These professing Christians inundated our email box and the comments section claiming we were "throwing stones" by "condemning others." We were "very cruel" and "hostile," leaving them with a "bitter taste." We were "complete ignoramuses" who were spewing "lies spread by bigots." And, of course, we were what now has become the stereotype of anyone who says homosexuality is a sin — "hateful homophobes." These last two labels are the world's buzz words wielded effectively to bludgeon any opposition into quiet submission. And these were the brethren!

As a member of the Post-Modern Generation, I realize it's anathema to say anything against any kind of sin. Without the Bible as one's moral compass, people turn to themselves to define what is right and wrong, usually based on how they're living. The only sin of this age is to offend. If one speaks out against homosexuality — the sacred cow of this day — because it's literally killing the practitioners and destroying society, well then you're just crossing the line. I just didn't think we'd be crossing the line of professing believers.


A Hateful Tone?

Just in case you're thinking the article was harsh sounding or that those affirming it acted like a torch-wielding mob so we deserved the backlash, neither was the case. Just what the Bible says about homosexuality was plainly laid out.

In God's own words, the Bible tell us that fornication (Gen. 2:24; Matt. 5:28; 1 Cor. 5:1-5; Heb. 13:4) and homosexuality (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Rom. 1:24-27; 1 Cor. 6:9-10; 1 Tim. 1:9-10) are sins and therefore are wrong. Jesus Himself in Matthew 19:4-5 reiterated the natural order of sexual union is between one man and one woman for life. Nobody was acting like a jerk unless the mere mention of the Bible makes one a jerk (which is really the crux of the issue).


Saved But in Rebellion?

Some objectors claimed that a person can be a practicing homosexual and still be saved. True? To answer the question with a question, "Is it possible for a person who is living in continued and open rebellion against God to be at the same time living in obedience to God in repentance and submission?" The answer is obviously "No." To put it in another context, how could I be called faithful to my wedding vows if I was continually living in an adulterous relationship with a mistress?


Jesus Tolerant?

It was brought up that Jesus showed mercy to the adulteress and therefore He tolerates sin. But, didn't Jesus whip the money changers out of the Temple because of their dishonoring God (Jn. 2:15)? Doesn't Revelation 19:13 tell us that Jesus' robe will be covered in the blood from the enemies He Himself will destroy upon His Second Coming? And, doesn't Jesus as judge finally send to the Lake of Fire everyone who ever rejected His salvation (Rev. 20:11-15)?

Yes, Jesus forgave, but He also told her to "leave your life of sin" (Jn. 8:11). According to Jesus' own words and requirements, we must leave our lifestyle of sin upon accepting Him as our Savior. To do otherwise leaves us remaining under God's wrath and final judgment in Hell (Jn. 3:36).


Loving People Straight to Hell?

Should the Christian response to those trapped in what the Bible calls detestable behavior (Lev. 18:22) just show "love and more love" and "endless forgiveness?" Certainly, we should love all people and show forgiveness as Jesus commanded. But, if anyone forgives a sinner yet the sinner hasn't sought God's forgiveness, then what does it matter? It really doesn't. A sinner can seek reconciliation with another person, but if they haven't done so with God, then that person still remains under God's wrath. If we don't proclaim this truth, our own apathy will "love" these lost ones straight to Hell. Christian enablers pass off their own forgiveness as God's, and that's when we are "loving" a person straight to Hell. That's a sin, and one the Lord says we'll be held accountable for (Ezek. 3:18-20; 33:6-8; Lk. 17:1-2; 1 Cor. 8:12).


Gay to Straight?

Protestations that Christians should stay away from the Bible and just leave it up to God to convict a homosexual caused a voice of experience to reply. A former lesbian responded that, "God does redeem and change people that were once caught up totally in homosexuality... after being confronted with the truth about themselves. Laying down sin is not self-initiated, it is part of divine, grace-filled correction."

Victory over the shackles of a sin-addicted life is possible in Christ, but it must come by the "feet of one who brings good news... who proclaims salvation" (Isa. 52:7). You're likely to be labeled a "hateful homophobe" if you try in love to rescue a homosexual from eternal death, but some will respond in faith.

So, be brave! Come out of the apathetic, end times Church of Laodicea and show true Christian love by unapologetically bringing the lost homosexual the life-changing Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

88 comments:

ssarhan said...

Good article Nathan.
I've had the same experience on FB w/my Christian friends when I post anything about what the Bible says about homosexuality.

Just yesterday (in Bible study) I was told I was being judgmental when I expressed that women should dress modestly in church so as not to distract men who come to worship. I didn't even try to defend myself, I let everyone think what they wanted.

Billy said...

Some day articles like this will get people imprisoned for hate crimes.

L&L is to be honored for standing up for the Word.

Susie said...

Praise God for the warriors who stand for the truth of the gospel.
Billy, that gave me a cold chill when i read the truth in ur last comment. I pray earnestly we are out of here by then.
Come quickly Lord

Lee Hyder said...

If I have knowledge of the truth, yet remain silent, going along with sin in order not to "rock the boat", I am in fact showing hatred toward that person. God's awesome Love always presents itself purely, simply, and truthfully.

Connie said...

We have to continue standing up for the truth of God no matter what happens in the coming days. The truth will set all captives free. There are still those out there who have not hardened their hearts and are willing to hear the Gospel. Let's continue to stand even stronger church. Great article!

Anonymous said...

Hi Nathan,

I'm sooooo confused about allllll this! I'm hoping you can help me please.

OK, here's where my confusion stems from, according to your article we are to speak out against "sin" and those that commit them.

BUT, EVERY human sins ... even those of us that have fallen head over heels in love with Jesus, like me, :-) .... Jesus DIED on that Cross, nailing EVERY sin that humans can commit TO it WITH HIM so HIS Blood can wash ALL clean whom BELIEVES in HIM.
Right??

That's not to say we should have a "free for all", but I thought Jesus' death AND resurrection took care of it ALLLL for it's NOT by OUR works that SAVE us, it's all done through HIS LOVE and WORKS.

I'm am sooooo far from being an EXPERT on this, I just go by that little "nudging" feeling that I get when I'm talking with HIM, ya know. So, I hope I'm not offending you with my "wonderings".

I think Jesus HIMSELF said there are but 2 Great Commandments which we should follow if we love HIM ... "To love our God with all of our hearts, strength, mind, and body AND To treat others the same way in which we have been treated ... LOVED.

If a person has TRULY accepted Jesus as their Savior, Jesus then begins HIS work in changing them from the inside to out to be the person HE wants them to be ... again, this is my understanding, if I'm mistaken PLEASE let me know.

HE tells people to go by what HE says, but, with sooooo many people saying different things, it makes a person just want to throw up their hands, and YELL "What is the TRUTH!!"

Thank you, :-)

Monica

Billy said...

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — California lawmakers are poised to vote Tuesday on a first-of-its-kind ban on a controversial form of psychotherapy aimed at making gay people straight.

Supporters say the legislation is needed because such treatments are dangerous and can lead to suicide.

Conservative religious groups emphatically reject that view of sexual orientation therapy and say the California bill would interfere with parents' rights to seek appropriate psychological care for their children.

Mainstream mental health organizations have disavowed such therapy.

The debate comes as gay rights issues take the spotlight around the nation with pending legislation in North Carolina and Colorado and recent comments from Vice President Joe Biden, who said he is "absolutely comfortable" with same-sex couples getting the same rights as heterosexual couples.



Read more on Newsmax.com: Calif. Could Ban Gay-to-straight Therapy for Teens
Important: Do You Support Pres. Obama's Re-Election? Vote Here Now!

Anonymous said...

It is sad to see how far our churches have fallen from the truth of the Gospel. Itching ears only wanting to hear what they want to hear. The enemy has done a marvelous job of infiltrating the church inthese last days. Thanks for bearing the torch of light for us and not backing down from the word.

Rocco T said...

Nathan, that was a great article. Few ministries or preachers are willing to say what you and Dr. Reagan say when you preach the word of God. It's refreshing to hear the truth being spoken.

People are famous for cherry-picking verses from the Bible out of context, like the woman caught in Adultery. As you pointed out, Jesus did forgive her but they always leave off the last part of "Go and sin No more"

Again, Thanks for speaking the Truth.

Brother in Christ

Rocco

Susie said...

Anon, i understand where ur coming from , but remember, Yashua never hesitated to point out sin. Calling out a sin is one thing... with love and acceptance that leads to forgiveness and deliverence. But tolerance is not what he taught. Its a difficult balance, but a necessary one none the less if people r to see that... we need a savior ... and he heals and delivers. There r people i know of that were gay, but when they met Jesus were delivered. Otherwize, because of their love for the Lord, they abstain from this behavior in order to honor HIM. Example, i am a 47 yr old widow. I could have sexual relationships if i so desire, but because His word tells me its wrong, i will not do it. Its just the same thing..... u no?

John Mushenhouse said...

Well, since when has this not been expected. Peter warns us (1 Peter 4:1-19)Peter said don't think it is strange. Why be shocked. Stephen , before getting stoned said they had killed the prohets before. Jesus said a servant is not above the master (Mat 10:24). There are so many more verses, but it is our normal function as Christians to be the forthwith. 2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Leonard Ravenhill said that if you are gonna preach revival that you had better pledged your head to heaven first. If we do that, we are with the risen saviour and what can man or devil do.

The one thing is perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to point out the faults that the people who come agaisnt us say. It sounds like revenge or an attempt to gain support (insecurity). We are to expect it, pray for them that God will show them mercy and lead them into truth.

How I wish that churches would teach the word so many would not be deceived by the ungodly worldviews. I hope that families would study the word and live it. I pray that God will have mercy with them, but above all I pray for boldness that the truth of Jesus would be proclaimed without fear as we were not given the spirit of fear.esus would be proclaimed without fear

Anonymous said...

I agree totally with L&L over the homosexual issue. It is UNLOVING and CRUEL to pretend that GOD doesnt mind this SIN. They may be saved like with all other sin, but they have broken fellowship with God and it does no good to pretend its all okay with God when it isn’t. Bet the defiant Christians wont like these instructions from Paul.

1Corinth 5:4thru6 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To DELIVER SUCH AN ONE UNTO SATAN FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH THAT THEIR SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.

YOUR GLORYING IS NOT GOOD. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven,that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Tim1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning FAITH HAVE BEEN MADE A SHIPWRECK:
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have DELIVERED UNTO SATAN,that they may learn not to blaspheme.

‘They’ wont thank ‘Them’ when they lose out at Christs judgment seat when all their rewards are thrown into the fire for being encouraged to make a shipwreck out of their faith.

Anonymous said...

Way to go Nathan. I happen to know X homosexuals. It is not impossible. It is just because they love the sin they are in. And Christians need to know the WORD, if they want to belong to Christ.

Susie said...

Billy, nathan, dr reagan & all my friends here at l&l PLEASE PRAY FOR MY SON NICK. He has been in the hospital all night with uncontrollable pain in his legs. O my dear Lord! This is what crippled me:(
What am i gonna do:(:(:(

Nathan Jones said...

We here at Lamb & Lion are praying, Susie. My little daughter showed up yesterday from walking the dog with a little baby killdear bird in her hands. It looked scared, but it really had nothing to fear in my daughter's loving hands. It was a reminder to me of how even when we're scared and the situation seems desparate, we're always in Christ's loving hands.

Anonymous said...

Dear Susie

Fear not, neither be afraid for God is with you both. In quietness and in confidence shall be your strength

2Tim1:12 .....for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what (whom) I have entrusted to Him until that day.

With love and prayers x

Susie said...

Nathan... thank u very much. I will think of ur illustration often.

anon... that was a wonderful scripture, one i wasnt too familiar with. How beautiful the feet of those who spread the gospel. Priceless to me. Thank u

Billy said...

Susie,

You're both in my prayers.

Anonymous said...

Nathan, i have to confess-- I did not read your post in entirety. Why? Its way too long, esp for a blog like post. All the scripture references seem to suggest arguing your point ad nauseum, when arguing never wins anyone. Why not just pray the HS will convict, if need be? BUT maybe He won't?

Sure, in the New Convenant Paul talks about it but we all know he was highly condemning in general--to women too. Peter, who knew Christ, never bothered to mention it and neither did Jesus as far as we know. Or, if he did, it wasn't considered important enough to address although the Roman world was involved in this lifestyle. Hmm..

- sammy

Susie said...

Thank u so much everyone:(:( as much as i love my Lord.... i cant help but feel desperately lonely right now. My prayer is whatever is going on with him the Lord will mercifully put one me. I can take it. My son is only 17.

Susie said...

Sammy, no offense,, but paul held the pen. Heb 4:12. ... All Scripture is doctine.. etc..
Im a female and i dont think that way of paul at all. He was dealing with carnal christians in corinth when his comments about a womans place were mostly stated.

Anonymous said...

Dear Susie
Your feelings are understandable, but they are not true, you are not alone because Jesus said 'I will never leave you, nor forsake you. I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world'.
So choose to be strong in the Lord and believe in the might of His Word rather than those feelings that lie against His truth.
Father God has placed all sicknesses upon His own beloved Son, so you stir up your faith to believe Him and resist steadfast in the Faith, casting all your care upon him; for he cares for you 1Peter 5:6-7.

Heavenly Father please give your wisdom and skill to the medical team taking care of Nick. We agree with Susie that you will bless this young man with salvation, health and healing of his spirit, mind and body. Please strengthen and mend his legs and make him every whit whole. Bless Susie with your Peace that passes all understanding. We ask in the Name of your Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We give you all the Glory, Honor and Praise. Thank you Father for always hearing us when we cry out to You. Amen

Susie said...

Dear anon... im overwhelmed ... thank u so much. I will definitely do as u suggest. I will choose to be strong and believe Gods word. All of it. I also just now found out my oldest brother john has cancer and needs immediate surgery. Altho i am emotional and feeling very isolated, i will definitely lean into the Lord. Lord bless these wonderful people for their love and concern. Thank u, i will cherish ur words and live them. :(

Maranatha please Lord Jesus come for your bride

DrNofog said...

Sammy, you are expressing an opinion that casts doubt on the veracity of the Written Word of God.

Those of us that are who are truly born again are led and taught by the HS to eventually trust the entirety of His Word, NOT by blind faith, but by studying what He has declared and promises in His Word and the HS ringing it True in the core of our being:

3 To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out.
4 And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
John 10:3-5 - [a guarantee we will not be led astray!!]

The great Philosophers of the past concluded long ago that if God chose NOT to reveal anything about Himself, we would have NO WAY to discover anything about Him.

That He has chosen to reveal some things to us, we are faced with a choice:
Do we believe Him?? [But without faith {trust} it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. - Hebrews 11:6]

Or do we believe the 1st Slanderous Lie recorded in Genesis 3:1-3?? [You can't trust Him! He's holding out on you! He has ulterior motives!]

There are so, so very many vss that give us assurance of the trustworthiness of His Word that I would wear myself out trying to post them all...
Here are but a few:

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? - Numbers 23:19

"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us..." - Hebrews 6:18

That He would always preserve the accuracy of His Word for us:
29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. - Deuteronomy 29:29

25 Then he said unto them, O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, - Luke 24:25-27, 44-45

And finally, as to whether any of these Holy men were just expressing personal "opinions"...

All scripture is given by inspiration of God [Greek lit. = "God-breathed"], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. - 2 Timothy 3:16

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation [Greek = personal origins].
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved [Greek lit. = "carried along"] by the Holy Ghost. - 2 Peter 1:20-21

Hope this helps.

Anonymous said...

Sammy

My son, keep my words and treasure my commandments within you. Proverbs 7:1

From Genesis to Revelation is the Word of God regardless of who said what! Some believe that the only words of Jesus in the Bible are those written in red ink! That’s not true, they are merely those words recorded that Jesus spoke while He ministered on earth.

Jesus IS the Word. The Word of God Himself! EVERY WORD written was at the direction of Christ and is the Word of Christ! John1

2Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Sammy, do you love God?

Jesus said "If you love Me, keep My commandments” John 14:15

"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." Vs21.

Sammy, do you love Jesus?

Jesus said, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. Vs23.

Sammy, do you love The Lord?

"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

Sammy, do you love the Holy Spirit?

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.vs 26.

Sammy, do you know the Law is dead. Jesus is not speaking of the 10 Commandments but of His Law of Love.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1John 5:3

1John 1:8,9

Susie said...

Why, anon, ur post reads like a familiar friend.........

Billy said...

Sammy,

Jesus said marriage was created by God, not man.

Jesus said marriage is between a man and a woman.

Jesus is God and God is the Word and the Word says what it says and does not change for God is the same before, now and in the future.

The Word says men shall not do to men as with women.

Billy said...

Obama has come out of the closet and decided to stop lying and admit he supports gay marriage.

May God deal with Him as His justice demands.

And may God show us mercy and give us a new president. (If not Christian at least one that upholds Judeo-Christian values)

Nathan Jones said...

@Sammy, it's just a standard 800-900 word one-page article, though it was originally written for the Lamplighter magazine, it's still the standard length for most professional blogs that I read.

As for answers to your questions, they're all in the article.

Susie said...

Just for the record. Anon thank u for quoting 2tim 3:16..... i misquoted it earlier as heb 4:12.
Not thinkin today.
If anyone is interested in awesome worship music... try grace williams.

Anonymous said...

MONICA

Sorry,I am not Nathan. Please read all comments to Sammy.

Salvation is the free gift by God’s Grace through FAITH which is not a gift but the act of our free will. No works required. When first we faith/trust in Jesus to save us from sin, from that second we are clothed in His Righteousness for eternity and Jesus takes on our un-righteousness.

Do you know about Christ’s judgment seat? That’s judgment for our works in or out of the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:10; 2Cor5:10.
Works done in the flesh are dead branches and fit only for burning as hay, wood and stubble, still saved, but through fire. John15:5-8; 1Cor3:12-15.
Works done in OBEDIENCE to God’s Word are called gold, silver and precious stones and survive the judgment fire for works. They are righteous works of obedience to His written commands.

It matters to Jesus very much that we are NOW being equipped to be heirs of Christ and not just heirs of God (saved).
Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17. and if children, then heirs--heirs of God (free Salvation, no works) and joint heirs with Christ IF indeed WE SUFFER WITH HIM (earned Rewards by obedience to His Word) that we may also be glorified together.
BIG subject but if we love Jesus we will obey His written commands to us.

When we sin, and we do, we need cleansing from post salvation sin. Why? Because if we have un-repented sin in us, we break our Father-son fellowship (NOT our relationship) but our walk with Father is broken. If we have sin in our hearts God will not hear our prayers. Psalm66:18. The Holy Spirit is changing us to become like Jesus BUT that work is helped or hindered by our obedience to Doctrine (Jesus’ teachings)
We do not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that comes from the mouth of God. ‘If you love me, obey me!’

It’s about choosing to ABIDE (remain always) in Christ and walk in His Light by following His Word not doing our own thing which is Darkness. When that happens, agree with Father quickly and confess sin to be cleansed. 1John 1:8,9. Remember Jesus had only to wash the Disciples FEET; otherwise they were all clean. The feet represent our present contact with the world of sin. This does not mean trying to think of every sin and name them every moment – we have to live by Faith in Jesus and the Holy Spirit will soon give us a nudge when we are in need of cleansing. The idea is to ABIDE (stay) in Christ’s Word, when we do that we CANT sin – however we still have the old sin nature living in us, so we still sin. It’s a choice for us to go with the old sin nature or the new nature in Christ. The Holy Spirit is our teacher if we would but heed Him speaking to us through God’s Word. (Beware of false spirits that don’t use God’s Word in context)

Paul said in Romans 7:4 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Jesus is Lord!

Anonymous said...

PS.
Obeying God’s Word is NOT legalism. We ought to be constrained by our love for Him.

The definition of legalism is to falsely claim that we can affect, or benefit our salvation by keeping the Old Covenant law (10 commandments) NO, we can't!

Billy said...

Anon or whoever...getting confusing:

Can one be a saved Christian THEN

go out and rape
go out and molest
go out and murder

and STILL go to Heaven?

Susie said...

Billy, imo, noone who is truly saved would be capable of such things.

Anonymous said...

Billy
The sin of the saved is documented in Corinthians and Galatians who were guilty of these un-righteous acts such as you name. Saved behaving as the lost world; Paul says WE are being Carnal. But sin has consequences in life. What mental and emotional torments evil actions bring, there’s no getting away with it when families are destroyed by the wickedness of a family member. God is not mocked to the point of premature death.

At the Judgment seat of Christ our unrighteous works will be burned in the fire so we suffer loss. We are ALL guilty of un-righteousness. Sin is sin is sin, there are no degrees with God – like white lies, tax evasion, lustful thoughts, revenge, aggression – the list is endless and it is only the self-righteous who think their sins aren’t as bad as the worst in man’s eyes (present company excepted)

The Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from ALL sin. He has paid the price of ALL sin – sin is no longer an issue – not faithing/trusting in Christ’s sacrifice to save is what will send the lost into the lake of fire.

Then there will be the loss of inheritance and many of us will quake when we stand in judgement before Christ, knowing what we could have, should have had in Christ had we but obeyed His commands Its Jesus that we let down the most. How the enemy must mock Him as he accuses the brethren daily before the throne of Grace.
GRACE is what it’s all about. Undeserved favor, not one of us is deserving of Salvation, its all down to God’s GRACE and too few grasp that fact of wonder and utter and complete love that God desires for all men to be saved,at any price, the highest price, so He sent His Son to die in mans place.

Sinners, that we all are, falling far short of His righteousness. Yet in His great Love and compassion for helpless wicked mankind He actually makes it easy to be saved. BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved – no works, no stopping sin, (not that we can anyway). LOOK to the CROSS like the serpent set on the pole in the wilderness. Just LOOK and that act of faith SAVES to the uttermost. Yet man in his vain wisdom cannot, will not, accept it can be so simple, yet so immense they HAVE to make it difficult and add works, works and more works. OR they wantonly turn Gods Grace into lasciviousness claiming Grace excuses their unrighteous behavior. NO! GOD FORBID!

Romans 6:12- Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID!

Do you see that – the saved are NOT UNDER THE LAW! The Law is dead and finished, the saved (for all their vile sins) are UNDER GRACE.
Jesus said IT IS FINISHED! Teleo – PAID IN FULL! Caveats are not permitted!

Glory to God, His Grace is sufficient!

Billy said...

Anon,

I disagree that a Christian is free, after having rec'd the salvation of Christ, to then go out and do whatever they want...rape old ladies, molest children, kill all the Jews.

God is just and I can't believe He would allow such things.

I believe this because I belive there ARE degrees of sin. While all sins are equal in convicting you in the eyes of God and make you in need of the Savior, I go back to God being perfect justice.

Do you truly believe God views someone saying "you idiot" the same as someone raping and killing someone? REALLY?!

Marcel said...

“Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
Luke 14

The 'tolerant of evil' spirit of anti-Christ has take over much of the apostate church and lawlessness is the dis-order of the day even in the house of God.
The 10 virgins of Matthew 25 are all asleep and will soon awaken all at once.
The door will be shut tight to the 5 foolish ones who really did not believe God and His word and did not think He would judge the wicked.

Brett said...

JESUS said, Go & Sin no more. It is really that simple. Yet, in this Laodicean church age, what is sin? The anti_christ world system has skimmed the cream out of the world church and reduced it to a form of godliness void of any real power in THE HOLY GHOST; but, that is just the nature and the direction of the old sin nature in mankind.
Our LORD commanded two requirements of us: to Love GOD with all our heart, mind and soul; to love one another. I wasn't born with a desire to have sexual relations with my same gender. However, I was born separated from GOD by a sinful propensity to do all manner of sinful things. GOD fixed the gap between Us through JESUS, Our LORD. I fix the old sin nature daily by washing my mind in the water, which is HIS WORD; being renewed in my mind to THE WORD of GOD and picking up my cross daily and sprinting towards the finish line.
If someone truly wants to believe they were born gay, let them have that. It is true, we are all born into sin. They are just confirming THE WORD of GOD to be True: for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of GOD. Now, Let's meet at the cross of JESUS and take care of the sin problem and be set free indeed. As we draw near to GOD, HE draws near to Us and JESUS sets Us free.

Anonymous said...

Billy
You can't believe this!

That is an emotional reaction without any Scripture to support your disbelief and have had no chance to study what God's Grace means.
God is JUST and all who believe for Salvation are JUSTIFIED - DECLARED NOT GUILTY as Christ has exchanged His righteousness for the sinners unrighteousness. The Penalty of ALL sin has been laid upon Jesus on the cross. There is no more to add, its been done. Works are yet to be judged by Christ after the Rapture; but the Penalty for ALL sin was laid upon Jesus on the Cross.

Marcel
In context, the Parable of the 10 virgins concern Israel at the end of the 7 year Tribulation and is not directed at the Church, who is the Bride, taken to heaven and marriage to Christ in the Fathers house . The marriage FEAST the 10 virgins will wait for is on earth at the end of the 7 year Tribulation.

Anonymous said...

This seems to be rampant anymore :( An old friend of mine "came out" recently and told me that he is going to a church pastored by a gay man who used to be a priest and has lived with his partner for 20 years. I've been loving, but firm on what the Bible says about it. His defense is that he claims that since Jesus Himself didn't say anything against it, it is not sin. He claims that the apostle Paul was a murderer and his letters shouldn't be in the Bible. I told him that Jesus was observant of the Mosaic law and the Mosaic law condemns homosexuality, but he refuses to listen to that. He claims he can be gay and a Christian and that God made him that way. It's a very dangerous thing when you've fallen into a lifestyle of sin and don't at least admit you are in sin. I told him "I was backslidden in my 30's, but I knew I was in sin and I wouldn't let anyone know I was a Christian because I didn't want to shed a bad light on Christ." It seems like SO much lately, homosexuality isn't just being portrayed as an "alternative lifestyle" like it was. NOW they're wanting to infiltrate the church. It's like that on TV too. The TV show SMASH currently has a gay couple and one just took the other to church with him and the one taking his boyfriend to church was with his family and his family was fine with the relationship too. I just don't get it short of it being a sign of the very end times... As in the days of Noah I guess :(

Brian Thomas said...

Well said Nathan! As I see immorality crumbling around the nation, I am encouraged to see my state of NC still holding to morality in marriage by voting on Tuesday to protect the definition of marriage between one man and one woman. But the gay activists are still fighting so please keep us in prayer. Also please pray for my pastor. He has received numerous threats for speaking up for marriage as defined by God but he is not letting the critics silence him.

Susie said...

Praise God for ur pastor brian:). I will also lift him up in prayer.

Everyone at l&l.... thank u for ur prayers for my son nick. When i told him about the prayers being said for him all over, u should have seen that boys face light up! AND.... he is going to back to school this morning:). PRAISE YOUR NAME YESHUA!!! THANK YOU!!!! I love u all for this so much, in Christ our Lord! Amen!

Anonymous said...

Dear Susie
Praise the Lord for His mercies endure forever. May God keep His Fathers hand upon Nick and lead him on a good path into the Kingdom.

Also prayers for John, your brother, we place him in the safe hands of Jesus and His merciful care.

Keep on believing Susie!

Susie said...

Anon, my gratitude runs deep... in Jesus' name. I will definitely not let go of him. Ever. No matter what happens, HE is in charge:) ty

Billy said...

Anon, let me put it this way:

You are in court before a Judge about to be sentenced to death. You hear about a witness that will come forth and take the blame for you, at no cost, and free you from your death penalty. You ask the witness to appear. He says all you have to do is believe in me AND I want you to stop doing what you were doing that got you convicted in the first place (let’s say it was something horrific…you tortured an old lady and stole her money. You say okay. The judge says you are free to go.

Scenario 1: You leave the court and never beat up anyone again nor steal from them. You do have moments of sin such as getting angry, lying, stole a piece of gum. But you remember what the witness did for you and you regret it, feel sorry, repent and trust in him to stand up for you and keep his promise.

Scenario 2: You leave the court. You start wanting to go out and beat up old ladies again and steal their money. So you give in and for every day of your life you go out and beat up an old lady and steal her money.

Now you die. You find yourself in front of the Judge again and your witness.

Possible outcomes

1. The witness took the blame for all your sins and you don’t even have to worry

2. The witness says “I don’t know you”

What do you think will happen to you in Scenario 1?

What do you think will happen to you in Scenario 2?

I’ll let you come up with your own answer.

When I think about this that I just wrote it makes me want to work harder than ever to make the changes in my life I need to make to turn from my sinful ways and show my indescribable love and appreciation for my witness before the judge.

If not, if I chose to say "well, I'm free to go now no matter what I do" then I am showing no love for my witness.

Billy said...

Anon,

Don't get me wrong. The salvation of Jesus can forgive anything BUT Jesus did say believe in me AND keep my commandments.

He tells us to turn from our wicked ways and not go back to our old life that we were living before we knew Him.

I guess I'm saying if someone is a rapist, claims to know Jesus, but keep on raping, then THEY didn't really believe in Jesus and will go to hell because of THEIR DISBELIEF VIA THEIR ACTIONS. I'm NOT saying JESUS didn't come through for them. He was their for him and HE REJECTED JESUS, not vice versa.

Hope that clears it up.

Billy said...

Susie,

So happy for you! ALL PRAISE TO OUR GRACIOUS AND LOVING LORD JESUS!

Nathan Jones said...

That's WONDERFUL, Susie - praise the Lord! After a few sleepless days, you've earned a nap. :)

We rejoied NC took a stand, Brian. It forced the presidential candidates to state their beliefs as well. For all that anti-bullying hoopla the gay lobby makes, it's the height of hypocrisy that your pastor has to feel bullied for sharing what the Bible teaches.

Billy's right, Paul said to the Corinthian church that they once were (past tense) living in hostility and rebellion against God. Once saved, they are a new creation and no longer living in a state of rebellion. We as Christians may still do the occasional sin, but we're not and if Holy Spirit indwelled could not be living in active, constant rebellion anymore and still be called followers of Christ.

Billy said...

Brian,

Great show of support for God's creation of marriage.

However...be warned. We voted for God's view of marriage, TWICE, in California and TWICE the liberal courts overturned our votes!

If Obama wins and the Democrats can get Congress back then we WILL have gay marriage in ALL states and his liberal Supreme Court justices WILL uphold this immoral law.

No wonder God is going to pull the plug on a world now ruled by a majority in rebellion against Him.

Anonymous said...

Billy
I had no intention to get into a discussion so I did not name myself. As I prefer to remain anonymous, for ease may I give a temp nomenclature of Charis (Grace) It feels deceitful to do this, claiming to be who I am not, but I hope this is acceptable?

By yours and Nathan’s responses, I see you are Arminianists. I do not hold to that position, but I am closer to Arminianism in rejecting the Reform view. In light of this particular issue, I stand with the Free Grace position, therefore I do not agree with the Armin assessment of Corinthians.

ALL sin is rebellion and that includes the charming Nathan as well as myself.

What you suggest Billy is called Antinomianism - in Christian doctrine, the belief that Christians are not bound by established moral laws, but should rely on faith and divine grace for salvation.

This I reject, and is NOT what Scripture teaches. As I am unable to do a quick copy and paste I will just briefly say that ALL the Corinthian church were committing these sins, they had merely changed their faith, not their former pagan, carnal actions. It was SOME of these, a few, who had been changed, otherwise the majority were doing exactly as they were doing before their Salvation – these are plainly called Brethren ( saved by faith in Christ) and the list of sins were linked to them. So bad were they, that even the heathens were disgusted by their behaviour.

I regret I must leave it there for now, at least until I can properly gather together the pertinent Scriptures that identify Righteous Believers of the Corinthian Church behaving in an un-righteous manner. The result is very serious loss of rewards that will stay with them into the Millennium and into eternity. By God’s GRACE we are saved (Justification ) Until we die we are in a struggle against the old sin man as we are (Sanctified) Finally we shall be Glorified and totally freed from the presence of sin.
Then comes the rewards or loss of them.
(Charis)

Susie said...

I personally think scripture is clear ..... we r baptized into the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. Period. Its a one time thing. Grace is certainly not license to sin, but it is an awesome reality. I explain it to people like this..... losing salvation would be like extracting the drop of water back out of the 8oz cup u just dropped it in to. It isnt possible!! I agree with anon that the loss of rewards would be an eternal reminder of such reckless decisions as returning to a life of sin after the greatest miracle of salvation!

Billy said...

Charis,

You could use your real name. I don't bite. :)

Anyway, the things you write about are unfamiliar to me. I will read whatever you post and consider your comments so don't think you are wasting your time.

Here's what it comes down to in a nutshell for me. As I consider your comments and Susie's comments, the following question comes to mind...

Okay, there is nothing I can do to lose my salvation. Therefore, I want to go out and kill all the Jews because I hate them, or think they killed Christ, or I'm just bored (NOT REALLY OF COURSE-FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT). So, what is to stop me? Why shouldn't I? If there is nothing I can do after recieving the gift of salvation from Jesus that would be forbidden, then WHY NOT?????????

Billy said...

I'd say that a Christian couldn't do what I suggest. It is inconceivable to me (unless they became metally unsound through no fault of their own to the point they aren't really responsible for their actions, only God would know). Otherwise, if a mentally sound Christian did this they really were not a Christian in the first place. They may have THOUGHT they were Christian, but no TRUE Christian could do such a thing.

So in that sense, I would say a TRUE BELIEVING, mentally sound Christian can NOT lose their salvation.

Susie said...

Billy! I totally agree with you. The true indwelling of the HS (to me) would prevent such abominable actions. So a person saved couldnt do those things.
Just a side bar, i think the people Jesus will say "i never knew u" to will probably be those who profess to be christian, but arent, because they never gave their heart to the Lord personally. Maybe in word, but not in their heart.

jerry sweet said...

a true believer tries their best to obey Christ.we are daily being worked on by the holy Spirit who guides us in all truth.but we have to do our part read the word,pray and as Paul put it beat our bodies everyday to overcome sin.we are saved but carnal.we are saved by grace and we are sustained by this same grace.once saved we are sealed,justified,and sanctified.but we will sin and the bible says some will even be snatched from the flame,but enter Heaven.the key here to me is simple how much do i love and respect what God accomplished at the cross,with the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ.i believe God chose before the foundation of the world was laid those He wants in Heaven with him.the bible clearly teaches predestination.read it.we humans constantly try to put God in a box.cant be done.by doing so we are trying to bring him down to our level.we also live inside time.God doesnt.God is soverign.he can and does things his way.here is my take on God.he says it,i believe it and that settles it.let God be God and we who are called and accept this gift of grace,need to glorify God everyday.one way to start is do our best not to sin.but when we do repent and try again.Gis not going to abandon us,but he will chastise even with an early death if we persist on being disobedient

Susie said...

Jerry, i agree with everything u said... except one thing. I totally disagree that God chose who he wants to be in heaven with him and that is how we r chosen. (I think i understand ur comment to say).... he is omnipotent. He knew who would choose him and who wouldnt, i agree. But just because he knows the end from the beginning doesnt mean HE chose. We do.

Susie said...

... and i Do read my bible(s). Daily. Its my life. HE is my life:)

Maranatha!
come quickly Lord!

Anonymous said...

Billy
When we are born again, we are crucified in Christ. We are dead to sin.

Gal2:9 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me

At the moment of Salvation, we are taken hold of by The Holy Spirit and PLUNGED into the Body of Christ. At the same time, The Holy Spirit indwells our mortal bodies. He begins His work of sanctification in us. If we Abide in Christ by not just reading His Word; but by actually applying it to our life, we shall receive a reward. Like Susie could have chosen to believe she was alone, or chose instead to apply Gods Word to her life by actively believing God said ‘I am with you always’. This is how we grow in the spirit and become conformed to the image Christ.

We are kept by the power of God and we cannot leave our position in Christ’s Body because we are sealed in by the Holy Spirit.

Imagine things going seriously wrong right now, and each good, law abiding Christian citizen is forced to protect themselves from an invading army. To protect your family you may have to do murder and kill and who knows what else just to stay alive. Essentially you have now joined that vile list of sin – yet you remain saved as an heir of God because doing good works did not save you and doing bad works will not loose you that Salvation.

Any sin you commit is done by the dead old man and Jesus has already paid the price for all those sins, past, present and future, when he died in your place on Calvary and exchanged your unrighteousness for His perfect Righteousness.

No one gets away with anything, God disciplines those who are His justly and fairly and that includes the Righteous Corinthians behaving in the un-righteous manner of the world. They will not inherit the kingdom, but they will still occupy the kingdom dressed in the white robes of righteousness given to them at the moment they believed in Jesus to save. They don’t deserve it, none of us do, but God’s GRACE is sufficient.

NOTHING we can do or not do can remove us from our Position in Christ Jesus for Eternity. Those awkward verses that seem to imply differently, need careful study to see that NOTHING can separate us from our God given Salvation.

Hebrews 10 is always held up as proof of loss of Salvation! NOTHING could be further from the truth; but I am too exhausted to do any more than bear witness to its certain truth that it does NOT convey loss of Salvation.

Sorry.V,V, tired now.

(Charis)

Billy said...

Charis,

Read your post. Some things sound okay to me, others not.

One thing that stood out was "To protect your family you may have to do murder and kill and who knows what else just to stay alive."

Actually, the Bible says do not commit murder. It doesn't say don't kill.

So, I would kill, in self defense, if I had to under the right circumstances. But I would never, ever murder.

Anonymous said...

Billy-'Actually, the Bible says do not commit murder. It doesn't say don't kill'.

Billy
The example was only to try and make you think of what the future could hold to induce you to commit a heinous sin. That could become a rabbit trail argument of ‘if this or if that’ which will lead away from the FACT that by the all encompassing GRACE of God, through Faith/Trust, an act our will we receive cleansing from All sin.

The root of ALL sin is from rebellion against God’s Word – original sin has been dealt a deathly blow and can NO LONGER be used in judgment against the saved, those who faith/trust in Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice on the cross.

Being born again means a new human spirit which is able to communicate with God’s Spirit. We pass from eternal death into Eternal Life and keeping us is GOD’s responsibility, not ours. ALL sin has been paid for and ALL means ALL. God is not a fool to have um, er, ah forgotten about that one.

All the ‘what if’s’ of this sin or that sin is an enemy tactic to make us doubt what God has declared that Jesus has paid the price for ALL sin – in FULL. We can do nothing to earn our Salvation and we can do nothing to keep it safe. NOTHING – even hell in all its fury cannot now separate us from the Love of God which is the ASSURANCE of our Eternal salvation, whatever post Salvation sin we may commit!

The issue of sin is null and void whoever commits it, saved or unsaved. It is the refusal to accept the free gift of Salvation by faith that is now PARAMOUNT.

Don’t look at this or that sinner and say ‘they can’t possibly be a Christian’ God says ‘What is that to you – you follow me’! Just continue to declare the Good News of free Salvation through faith in Christ’s death, resurrection AND bodily ascension into heaven, where He sits at the right hand of God the Father as our High Priest continually making intercession for us. By His shed Blood He saves and KEEPS us saved. Indeed the Trinity together keeps us saved.

Resistance is useless, there is no escape!

The saved sinner gets away with NOTHING! Not during life and not at the Judgment Seat of Christ. What WORKS we do NOW will effect us for our work in the millennium and on into Eternity. Our full inheritance (not our Salvation) is at risk by failure to ABIDE in Christ, doing so, we will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh – but when we do, we have Jesus as our advocate in heaven when Satan stands to accuse the brethren.

1John1:9

Sin has lost all its power! Believe/trust/consume EVERY Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, digest it and apply it obediently if you love Him. Leave sinning Christians for God to deal with – its HIS business not ours!

Praise the Lord for His mercies endure forever

charis

Susie said...

Charis!!! Amen! Amen! And AMEN!!!

Nathan Jones said...

@Charis, I've never been called an Arminianist before. I'm not a hpyer-Calvinist either.

Eternal security has been hotly debated for 2,000 years, so we'll not solve this deep question here.

I tend to believe salvation is always secure in God's promise - John 10:28-30 "28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Now, can we snatch ourselves out of the Father's hand? The verse did say "no one." Buuuut, the Bible also teaches that we can lose that salvation if we stop trusting in Jesus (Gal. 5:4, I Tim. 4:1, and Heb. 6:4-6).

Rebellious, unrepentant conduct can ultimately lead a person to the point where he, in word or in deed (or both), rejects Jesus as Lord and Savior of his life. Since his acceptance of Jesus is what led to his adoption into the family of God, this subsequent rejection of Jesus will result in his being disinherited from the family. The book of Hebrews teaches this very strongly in the following passages: 2:1-4, 3:12-14, 6:1-8, 10:16-31, and 12:12-17. Another powerful passage that teaches the same principle is 2 Peter 2:20-22 where a person who has come to know the way of righteousness and then decides to return to the world is compared to a dog who returns to its own vomit.

This is not a matter of losing one's salvation one day and regaining it the next. The book of Hebrews says that once a person has "fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame" (Heb. 6:6).

I've quoted partly from Dr. Reagan's article What Must I Do To Be Saved? which is well worth the reading.

Billy said...

Anon,

I've said all I'm going to say on this, too, like Nathan, and I stand by HIS excellent reply (what I wish I was able to say).

Anonymous said...

Nathan I have decided to do a sketched reply to this for the sake of one soul (Susie) who has plumbed the depths of God’s Grace.

If we stop trusting Jesus – that is a work! We are saved by faith, not by works from the Calvinist front door works or the Arminianist back door works. You may not be either, but it’s their theories you express.

Nowhere anywhere does God ever say we can lose our Salvation!
Galatians 5:4 says we fall from grace – favour/fellowship with God, the context does not concern Salvation whatsoever! Falling from Grace, loss of FELLOWSHIP is a sin Christ’s Blood atoned for.
Tim 4:1 says ‘departs from the faith’ as in becomes ‘faithless’ and when we are faithless He remains faithful! Faithlessness is a sin Christ’s Blood atoned for.

Hebrew 6 This theory is known as context violation ignoring the historical facts of former saved priests under severe persecution thinking to avoid it by going back to the Temple sacrifices – but animal sacrifices were no longer effective Jesus is the only answer to their fear and cleansing. To renew them again to repentance – that is for FELLOWSHIP with Father and the context does not concern either Justification or its loss. Denying Christ is a sin, and while wilful sin was not covered in the OLD Covenant, The New Covenant covers ALL sin including putting the Son of God to shame. This is an example of not fully grasping the Grace of God.What is impossible for us is possible for God.

Regarding 2Peter 2:20- Again the context says nothing about losing Justification. Serious, yes, God is angry at this behaviour. Unless they repent these are in serious danger of extreme discipline from the Father and of l losing rewards and forfeiting their inheritance in Christ.

All your expressions of sin such as rebellion, un-repentance, denial, and all your ‘evidence’ in Hebrews 6 (and 10) is based only on, and I’m sorry to have to say it,) but faulty exegesis and poor scholarship of language. To deny the power of Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice to save to the uttermost as you and dr Reagan are doing, is sin – but ALL sin has been paid for, its at the initial act of faith the Holy Spirit seals us into Christ’s Body. To maintain that you, a mere mortal can remove yourself in any way from the grip of the Trinity is to consider yourself greater and more powerful than the Trinity who keeps you saved.

Like the Arminianist you do not have the assurance of your salvation which the word PISTIS includes in its definition, saved by faith alone, by Grace alone which includes God given ASSURANCE. Faith/belief/trust/assurance, which you are choosing to deny by lax exegesis which is faithlessness – sin of denial. You do not know if you too may fall from Grace right up until the day you die or Jesus come. Daisy theology, he loves me, he loves me not, he loves….Just like the Tulip of the Calvinist who will never know until his death if he was one of the elect or not.

It took 300 years for the Church Fathers to settle the doctrine of the Trinity. This E.S. argument of 2000 years is NOW being strongly defended by the Holy Spirit who is, in these dying days, waking men of God to the fact that Justification is Everlasting because of God’s Grace and the power of Christ’s Blood to atone for ALL sin, including yours and Dr.Reagan’s eisegesis of the Gospel Truth.

Pastor/teachers are being stirred to teach about the loss of inheritance to evoke believers to obedience to the Word. The Criterion is at the door. Heirs of God as free gift Salvation to enter heaven Yes. But dispossessed as heirs of Christ to rule and reign with him during the Millennium.

We are dead, crucified with Christ, sin has no power over the dead. We are dead to sin and alive to Christ.

Billy continue to search Scripture for the power and strength of God’s love and Grace. Refuse to insert ideas into the text such as L&L have done here.

charis

Susie said...

Charis, thank u for caring about me... my son... my brother. Truely, i am very deeply grateful.
Having said that, i will say this. I pray for those who think they could lose their salvation. What a stressful feeling that must be:(. I do not in any way agree with that erroneous viewpoint. The word says we r sealed by the HS until the day of redemption. Period. Sin has to be dealt with however and reaps consequences. I know this in my own life as i draw closer to the Lord..... seeking his revelation daily... searching the unsearchable riches of his glory... i thank him always for the gift of faith he has so lovingly placed in my heart. I am not swayed by any doctrine not cobfirmed in my spirit by his spirit. I love reading ur posts. U r very eloquent and so obviously walking in the truth that he SO desires ALL of us to walk in. Praise God! ALL SIN PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE ARE FORGIVEN!! Amen! Thank u Yeshua a meschiach!!!

Susie said...

One other comment.... as nathan quoted above from the gospel of john... where it says... noone can snatch them out of my fathers hand...... it says NOONE. that includes yourself. If the bospel was sincerely believed, it is a done deal. FOREVER!! praise God! Woohoo!

Susie said...

One other point.... as nathan pointed out above from the gospel of john.... noone can pluck them out of my fathers hand... noone. To me that includes even yourself!!! Thank u Yeshua for ur endless mercies and grace beyond comprehension!!!!

Susie said...

Im sorry, i meant to delete this one cuz of mispelling. Oops

Nathan Jones said...

@Charis, thank you for so well stating the "once saved always saved" hyper-Calvinist viewpoint. Very educational to those who read both it and my post, adding to the ongoing 2,000 year old debate.

Anonymous said...

Nathan, on the contrary! OSAS teaching Calvinism is based on the false belief that God elects some for salvation and others for hell. It is this false view of the perseverance of the saints (the P in tulip) that means they cannot be lost because they are 'chosen' and have not been saved by an act of their own volition. They believe God's 'gift' is faith, meaning a forced belief, not their own free will choice. Until they die, they will never know if they were actually saved or not.

The Bible teaches Eternal Security which I prefer to call Eternally Justified - very different from Calvinists once saved always saved , as Salvation is an act of our free will in response to the Gospel message. So you are mistaken in your assessment of my comment.

No offense Nathan, but it is apparent L&L have yet to KNOW the full teaching of For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that (salvation) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph2:8,9

NOT that I am doubting your salvation at all, I consider you a brother, just saddened that you cannot yet know the full assurance of being dead to sin and alive to God through Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice. Plus the seriousness of teaching this condemnation to others.

The 2000 yr old debate is slowly but surely running out of steam by God’s Grace and love for His invisible Church. There is therefore now NO condemnation! Praise the Lord!

Anonymous said...

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES – pisteuo – present, active (YOU do this)in him shall not perish but have ETERNAL LIFE. John 3:16

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have EVERLASTING LIFE: and I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST. John 6:37-40

And I give unto them ETERNAL LIFE; and they shall NEVER PERISH, neither shall ANY [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and none [man] is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:28,29
(There is no ‘BUT – de) ANY – ‘man’ is added by translators so any means you, me, thing, devil--- Nothing can take us out of the hand of the Son PLUS the hand of the Father.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, NOR ANY OTHER CREATURE, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts 2Cor1:21,22

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, ye were SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1:12-14

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. Eph 4:30

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.1Peter1:3-5.

Just like Noahs Ark God brought them in, then SEALED the door SHUT.
charis

Katie Hesselton said...

Thank you so much Charis- your comments just strengthened my faith that much more!
I'm sorry, Nathan, but if you have to insert a "buuuut" when discussing a clear passage of scripture about eternal salvation then I think you are really not believing that passage of scripture as stated.
I am curious too- you listed some passages that you feel prove that we can lose our salvation (I do not for the record). However, there are many more scripture passages that undeniably state that our salvation is secure. Why do you choose to believe the former rather than the latter?
Blessings,
Katie

Susie said...

Katie, i agree with you completely.. and charis's posts are very confirming, arent they? ::)::)
I am a bit concerned about the same question u stated... i read all the scriptures nathan posted... read dave reagans article nathan posted ...and i researched calvinism and armininism...
i still maintain what i posted earlier, totally confident that ANY sin we commit after true salvation was paid for at the cross. Trying to read more into that grace is almost like throwing salvation back in the saviors face saying.. it really DIDNT accomplish everything like yeshua said it did at the cross...
i love dave reagan and nathan... but it is kinda disturbing that they hold to such a doctrine...
said with much love and concern in our Lord... susie

Anonymous said...

Katie and Susie

I intend no disrespect whatsoever to the Prophecy work done by L&L.

It warms my heart that you are both recognising the far-reaching power of God’s totally undeserved GRACE born from the depths of His love and compassion.

I would like to quickly add a little thought about the words ‘judgment’ and ‘fire’. Altogether there are 8 judgments, the first being the judgment seat of Christ (Bema) when all BELIEVERS WORKS are tested and purged by fire; only the righteous works will survive. The gold, silver and precious stones determine our rewards for Holy Spirit led service. Abiding in Christ means to stay in His Word and actually apply them to life.

Context is so important! Some see judgment and fire, and automatically think of the Great White Throne judgment of the UNbelievers and the final judgment of the lake of fire. Hebrews 6 is good news, that there are no more sacrifices that have to be done daily. Our High Priest died ONCE for ALL and is now our heavenly advocate for even the priests who were so afraid that they tried to return to the old law. Like Peter, this was wilful sin and many saints were burned at the stake so not to deny Jesus like he did. How many others in terror for the lives of their little ones during the inquisition failed to stand firm, and decided to deny Christ. (Fox’s Book of Martyrs) That wilful, fear riddled sin is fully paid for by the Blood of Christ and they remain blood bought heirs of God.

Easy believism? There is nothing easy about putting trust in a man we have never, ever seen or heard speak. We don't trust our own works, but believe the eyewitness accounts and place our faith in the Doctrine they were inspired to write. God’s Word and our obedience to it will determine our future position in the Mill. Kingdom. Jesus says ‘Who shall I send’. If we offer ‘send me’, will he sadly shake His head and say ‘No, you are not fit’ you have believed, but you did not abide in Me’!!! :(

1John1:9 is vital to keep short accounts when convicted by the Holy Spirit. Best of all that we strive to remain in His Word through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. When we abide, we cannot sin!

There is a consequence to all sin; we grieve the Holy Spirit, even quench His activity in our lives – but smouldering flax He will not quench. But He disciplines during our lives, and at the Bema we shall suffer loss – and be ashamed for it.

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1John 2:28.

charis

Nathan Jones said...

@Katie and @Susie, I've always believed in "once saved always saved," as long as we abide in Him by faith.

Why for the last 2,000 years believers in Christ have been able to make strong biblical cases for and against losing one's salvation? It could be that God's left the subject just a little bit grainy so that we stay diligent in remaining faithful.

Anonymous said...

Nathan Where is a verse that says we are saved AS LONG AS WE ABIDE IN HIM BY FAITH?
That’s just another BUTtttt and one doesn’t exist.

The FAITH is from the moment we hear the Gospel and believe. That is JUSTIFICATION. Phase 1 Salvation.

ABIDING is part of the ongoing work of SANCTIFICATION in Phase 2 Salvation until the Glorification of Phase 3 Salvation at the resurrection.
Loss or gain is during ongoing, present Phase 2 Sanctification and concerns WORKS regarding rewards. It has nothing to do with Phase 1 Salvation.

The invisible Church has always had the clarity of absolute assurance of Justification; the word pisteuo difines Faith as knowing/accepting/assurance/ trust in the object of our Salvation Jesus Christ.

Positionaly we are IN Christ and forever remain IN Christ. It is plain in Scripture that Christ paid for sin once for all and SAT DOWN at the right hand of God the Father to continually make intercession for us.There are no more sacrifeces as His work was full and complete and this assurance has always been known.

Romanism is the reason for doubt; it suits them to keep people in fear and trembling of losing salvation so they could sell indulgences to make money for the Popes. Rome’s Counter Reformation feared how would they keep the church under control if they accepted Luther’s declaration of Sola Fide- Faith alone.

Calvin understood it, it was Beza that invented ways of keeping people in check – no better than Rome. That’s also true of Jacobus Arminianus, you were only saved unless you stayed faithful.

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself 2Tim2:13

The preceding verses
11. This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. (and we have died, we have been crucified in Christ – therefore we shall also live with Him)

12. If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. ( This is sanctification. To reign with Christ is an inheritance gained by faithful work during our present sanctification; to deny is to lose out on the rewards that would make us heirs of Christ during the Kingdom rule on earth, not just heirs of God which is our guaranteed Justification)

charis

Susie said...

Nathan, this year i will celebrate my 30th bday as a born again chrisian. In that time, i became like a corinthian... sinner big time. I was not abiding in the word like i have been now for two years. I now have fellowhip back with the Lord and he is taking me thru the sanctification process moment by moment. My question to you is this.... if the rapture happened during my backslidden time, do u really think i would not have gone to heaven? REALLY??

Anonymous said...

Sin is inconceivable and so atrociously dreadful that we find it difficult to appreciate how utterly helpless we are against its ravages. We are as helpless as a newborn babe to protect itself against a prowling, lioness looking for a meal for her hungry cubs. If the baby abides quietly under the blankets of its cot, and doesn’t stir or cry out, will it remain safe from the bite of eternal death?

Of course not! Both the newborn babe and the mature man equally needs the same level of protection, absolute and complete with no ‘loop-holes’ to prevent from being consumed.

Jurassic Park is also a suitable analogy of how essential is the highest levels of security needed to keep vulnerable man separated from the ferocious might of a Tyrannosaurus Rex; even from the tiny, imp-like carnivores that overpowered by weight of numbers.

Satan is like a roaring lion seeking whom he might devour, and he is but the harbinger of sin which is mightier by far, and our flesh is on sins side.
We can do nothing to protect ourselves from the relentless pursuit of mighty sin and eternal death. NOTHING! That’s why we are kept 100% by the power of God because we are incapable of protecting ourselves.

“It isn’t up to us to keep ourselves saved; we are in the double fisted grip of The Father and The Son, sealed in by The Holy Spirit” and that by the Divine, Free Grace, all encompassing, Hermetically Sealed, Maximum Security Facility of God’s even mightier Hands,

charis

Nathan Jones said...

Happy Anniversary, Susie!

Only God knows. That's the point I'm trying to make. I've heard and myself argued both sides of the "once saved always saved" position both in Bible school and seminary. We can interpret verses to mean salvation or sanctification and come to no 100% conclusion... nor has the Church in 2,000 years. I'm sure we're not going to solve it on this blog. That's why we need to abide in faith, for those who abide in faith never need worry and can be at peace.

Anonymous said...

Susie
I reckon you/we would have lost our salvation by now if it was up to us to hang on to it!

God knows! Oh yes, God knows the Truth and Jesus told us that we shall also know the truth and the truth will set us free. So whats the truth about Eternal life?

Interesting because ALWAYS as in ‘Once saved ALWAYS saved’ is not actually used in the Bible in connection with being saved. ALWAYS in Hebrew yown is ‘day’ and CAN end, like at sunset! In Greek it is pantote and means at all times, evermore and doesn’t have the same strength to it that the Biblical word ETERNAL has!

Example: “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have ETERNAL LIFE. (Not Always life)

I wonder if the term ETERNAL Security, meaning Eternal Life without end, is being side-stepped because it would mean that if OSAS can end, then so could God also stop being 'eternal'. In the Bible Eternal means without beginning or end.

It’s a neat twist but essentially means we aren’t talking about the same situation at all. The term OSAS is intrinsically linked to T.U.L.I.P. No wonder some have been un-assured for 2000 years.

I am at peace with no worries right now about my eternal position in Christ. Should something bad happen, and I cease to abide faithfully, I know Jesus will still be holding on to me. Should things get ugly, as in the 3rd world, and they tell me to deny Jesus or watch my child be mutilated piece by piece (It is happening now) so I fail the test and deny like Peter did, I know that Jesus Blood has cleansed me from that wilful sin.

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

Refrain:
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior all the day long.

Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels, descending, bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

Perfect submission, all is at rest,
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with His goodness, lost in His love

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSsmeLu7Jlo&feature=related

Susie said...

Nathan, i agree that we need to just percevere and move forward with our walk by faith in our Lord.
and.... thank you:)

Charis.... we know what we know. Amen!!! :)

Anonymous said...

Nathan While I agree with Susie, I think it is worth mentioning that the word Abide – meno a feminine noun is not a synonym for Faith – pistis a verb.

Faith is a positional truth and Abide isn’t, it concerns fellowship. This hypothesis is easily tested by doing a word substitution as in If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you- John15: into - If you (believe) (pistis) in me, and my words (believe) in you - .

Obviously meno is not a synonym for pistis. In vs 15 Jesus said Abide in me, and I in you; we are to abide in Him and He will abide in us – substitute is (believe) in me and I will (believe) in you – why ever would Jesus want to believe in me? Therefore it is error to substitute in vs 6 --If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned – into If a man (believe) not in me- . This isn’t about loss of Salvation but of rewards due to dead works that are burned at the Bema for not walking in the light by abiding.

In fact the whole passage is plainly about believers and fellowship because the Father is the vinedresser; He is a Father to the believer, not the unbelieving. We are His workmanship and what He has started He will bring to completion. There is much compelling evidence in the Greek but I will stay with this.

charis

Nathan Jones said...

@Charis, since we're covering already weeeeeeeeeell covered ground, a coincidence occurred just today that is relevant to our discussion.

A gentleman wrote in saying he could disprove all 109 prophecies concerning Jesus being the Messiah. He was "saved for 32 years" but then became "open minded" and now has written "100 articles denying the validity of the Bible and Christ." People of faith are "stupid and ignorant" he claims. Being apostate, there's probably even a seething hatred of God.

So, what is it? Will he be going to Heaven with us, praising the very God he hates and now spends his life disproving? Or, is he going to Hell because like all pagans he denies the need for a Savior and remains in rebellion against God? (Can't use the Baptist "get out of jail free card" argument that "he was never saved in the first place," because for 32 years he claims he believed in Jesus.)

Katie Hesselton said...

Sorry, Nathan I know you were addressing Charis, but here is my 2 cents: Yep!
If he was truly saved in the first place then he became a new creation at that moment- you can't uncreate yourself- the old has already passed away.
Now suppose this man were to come back to the faith after this very major lapse. According to your interpretation of the bible: tough nuggies- there's no going back,right? Susie also shared a similar experience and she asked you where you thought she would go had she died during this time. You replied, God only knows, but in keeping with what you stated previously you should have added and God only knows where you will end up right now! (sorry, Susie, for using you as an example- I think we all know that you are an amazing sister in Christ).
If this passage were really saying that you cannot come back to the faith after you walk away, then there would be many, many people out there basically doomed despite their belief. Here is what I believe the passage is saying: You cannot be born again, again. I mean, crucifying oneself to jesus again would put him to an open shame ( as the passage states) because this is like saying his sacrifice was not fully sufficient to cover all sin/lifestyle/lapses once and for all and that his blood would need to be shed all over again.
Just my humble opinion,
Katie

Susie said...

Katie, thank u for ur lovely compliment. I feel the same way about u:). I dont mind being used as an example at all.

Anonymous said...

Nathan. Katie said it as it is, and AMEN!

Salvation i.e being Justified comes as a result of a person putting their faith/trust in Christ to save from sin. Jesus said He will save, it’s up to Him to keep His Word. Jesus does that by exchanging our unrighteousness for His Righteousness. Legally God declares each of us Justified – DECLARED to be not guilty. The penalty of that man’s denial, like you or me, that initial moment of faith is all it takes, as we are all sinners and it isn’t a result of works of any kind and that includes being faithful.

Sole Fide – Faith Alone! RC sees salvation as ongoing and melds justification in with sanctification, and merits are added up to judge if a person has earned enough grace or not. This is what you are implying.

That man WILL be in heaven but will lose out on rewards he / we will lose out on the Kingdom inheritance. Biblical teaching is nearly no-existant today, what ever has he based his theories on anyway, certainly not Biblical Truth.

Now if it’s true murderers cannot be saved, or thieves etc of 1Cor. then what is the point of telling the Gospel at all to those in prison. No one could be saved. How was the thief on the cross saved if thieves cannot enter the Kingdom (the 1000year Messianic Rule) Entering into heaven/Paradise where God lives, is not equal to Kingom inheritance and the work prepared for us with Christ. All sin has consequences, sin is sin and there is no distinction made in the Bible – what IS different is the type of judgment God gives for sin. How many were butchered in the Holocaust? How many of those did Hitler kill himself? Judgment is an issue only God can determine, and the believer’s sins will be judged with righteous judgment by Christ at the Bema and unbelievers at the Great White Throne.

We are not to judge the salvation of another based on what we see by arrogantly ‘fruit-picking’ A damaged or fruitless branch will be burned in the fire in judgment while the soul is saved, through fire because the context is not about salvation, but a believer’s works and their fruits or lack of it. Strong discipline getting stronger is definite.

Beside which, Scriptures have been plainly stated that God keeps us eternally saved – the ones noted by L&L that SEEM to contradict Eternal Justification, have been inaccurately interpreted by removing from their given context. The rules of Literal interpretation are very clear on this point.

charis

Anonymous said...

Thank you for writing this. I recently have been outcast by other's who claim to be Christian because I believe what the bible says about homosexuality. I was shocked and hurt at where the hate was coming from toward me. I feel better knowing it's not just me and I'm not wrong. I am sad for all though and pray for them because I too am a sinner and know it takes the work of the Lord in my heart to break the chains. Thanks.

Robert said...

Paul spoke of believers who continued in sin as not losing salvation but losing reward and "suffering loss" at our rewards ceremony. But one must know that he knows he has received salvation in Christ. Paul himself confessed that he does what he knows not to and does not do what he knows he should do. We concentrate too much on the sin and not enough on the salvation. We are not judges, and so we must compassionately spread the good news that Jesus, who is the judge, saves. Thus the remedy. As for sin, Christ defeated that and nailed it to the cross as far as the believer goes. Nothing can take us from His hands, and the understanding I have is that nothing means anything and everything. Remember we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Gods seal cannot be broken. Is any of this license to sin? A thousand times no! But show me one who doesn't. You can't. But we need to be as close to perfect as we can possibly get.
Our message and our commission is: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Leave the judging up to Him. And "be ye perfect, even as He is perfect."