Tuesday, August 7, 2012

Antichrist Book: Religious Background

Nathan JonesBy Nathan Jones

Dr. David Reagan has recently released his eleventh and latest book titled The Man of Lawlessness: The Antichrist in the Tribulation. I interviewed him about his new book on the Antichrist and asked him his opinion on some very controversial eschatological questions.


What will be the religious background of the Antichrist?

Nathan Jones: What about the Antichrist's religious background? As you know, there is a lot of contention that he will be a Muslim. I get a lot of emails from people who get very angry about this topic.

Dr. Reagan: The Antichrist being a Muslim is something I don't think ever occurred to anybody until recently. People tend to interpret Bible prophecy out of the newspapers, so whatever is popular in the newspaper, well that must be the answer.

Certainly today the Muslims are on the rise. The Muslims are very aggressive around the world, so we now have people saying they think the Antichrist is really going to be a Muslim. We have a fellow by the name of Joel Richardson who has written a book about this possibility. He is the primary advocate of the viewpoint that the Antichrist will be a Muslim.

The first time I heard about this view my immediate reaction was, "That's just crazy, because the Bible says point blank the Antichrist will walk into the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem, take his seat on the throne there, and declare himself to be God. What Muslim would ever declare himself to be God? Anybody who would do that would be immediately killed by the Muslims. They would not have anything to do with such a claim."

Richardson's theory is, no, the Muslims are going to increase in power and the Antichrist will really be a Muslim leader. He will be the Mahdi, which you know in Muslim theology they believe will come and who will be the Islamic messiah. Richardson believes the Mahdi is the one who is going to be the Antichrist. He will unite all the Muslims of the world behind him and they will be the most powerful force. They will be the ones who will come against the Jews and all that in the end times.

There is a lot of problems with the Muslim Antichrist view. Not only the problem of a Muslim ever declaring himself to be God, but you know as well as I do there are two wars that are indicated most likely before or just at the beginning of the Tribulation — the Psalm 83 War and the war of Ezekiel 38-39. In my opinion, those wars are going to pretty well wipe out the Muslims in the Middle East. The majority of Muslims are in other parts of the world, but in the Middle East there's not going to be much left to lead there. Wouldn't you agree?

Nathan Jones: I don't see how Islam could be a major player during the Tribulation. Once Israel subdues its neighbors in Psalm 83 and then once God supernaturally defeats Iran and Turkey and Russia and Libya and all these major players in the Middle East, how could Islam possible stand? How could a Muslim have faith in Allah anymore when the entire infrastructure of Islam is destroyed? It's far more logical that the Antichrist when he comes will fill the power vacuum in the Middle East and will go on to more than likely annihilate the rest of the Muslims in India, Bangladesh and other national strongholds.

Dr. Reagan: Right! In fact, the indication of the Scriptures is that the Psalm 83 War and the Ezekiel 38-39 War will most likely take place before the Tribulation begins or early into the Tribulation, which would end the current geopolitical and religious structure of Islam as it exists today. There's just not going to be any Muslim power left in the Middle East when the Antichrist is done with them.

There are a lot of other problems with the Islamic Antichrist theory. One problem is that the person who talks the most about the Mahdi is the leader of Iran today, and that's a Shiite nation. The Shiites are at most 20% of the Muslims, really probably closer to 10%. Ninety percent of the Muslims in the world are Sunnis. I cannot believe that some Shiite Mahdi is going to rule all of Islam, because they argue that when he appears the first thing he is going to do is to declare that the Shiite version is the correct version of Islam. Then all of the Sunnis are suddenly going to say, "Oh, great!" and unite behind this guy?

Furthermore, Islamic unification violates the covenant that God gave to Ishmael. In that covenant God said Ishmael and his descendents would always be a people who will not be able to get along with anyone including themselves. The Sunnis and the Shiites are never going to fully unite, as they hate each other with a passion. They are never going to unite behind some Mahdi or whatever.

The whole Islamic Antichrist theory goes against everything we have here in the Bible.

Of course their number one argument now has become that Daniel 9 says that the Antichrist is going to rise out of the people who destroyed the Temple. True, but they argue that most of the Roman soldiers were people from the Middle East.

Nathan Jones: Mercenaries, and all those sorts?

Dr. Reagan: Yes, they claim that those are the true people from the Middle East, so the Antichrist is going to rise out of the Middle East. My argument is that I don't care what they were. I don't care if they were Australian aborigines! It was the Romans who decided to destroy Jerusalem. It was the Romans who gave the order to destroy Jerusalem. It was Roman generals with Roman troops. I don't know how the Bible could be any clearer. It's not going to be the Muslims.

Nathan Jones: Very good! I agree totally 100%.


In the last part of this interview concerning Dr. David Reagan's newest book, The Man of Lawlessness: The Antichrist in the Tribulation, I ask him if the Antichrist will truly be killed and resurrected.


Resource


The Man of Lawlessness: The Antichrist in the Tribulation Book

The Man of LawlessnessThis book contains a survey of everything the Bible has to say about the Antichrist, presented in a down-to-earth, easy-to-understand style. One of its special features is a prophecy forum where the opinions of 22 Bible prophecy experts are presented concerning key questions about the Antichrist. It also features a series of in-depth essays about the Tribulation and the Antichrist.

  1. Part 1: The Antichrist in Scripture
  2. Part 2: A Prophetic Forum About the Antichrist
  3. Part 3: An In-Depth Look at Four Issues
  4. Part 4: Good News for Christians
  5. Part 5: Are You Ready?

Order your copy for $15 today!

111 comments:

Anonymous said...

do you think the false prophet is a pope and the antichrist an christian apostate? what does revelation elude to?

SeanOsborne said...

Excellent series!

I agree, Antichrist most likely will not be Jewish and. as Jesus said, he will come in his own name. I take that to mean he will come with his own false narrative of being Jewish because the Jews are expecting Mashiach and that he will be a descendant of the line of David.

It's all about bloodline for the Jew, and until God pours out His Spirit upon all Israel they will be subject to the deceptions of Satan.

I believe the False Prophet will be a Jew.

Billy said...

Disclaimer: I'll be referencing Gog/Magog. If those are 2 different wars I'm talking about the 1st one where God destroys Russia and its allies.

I don't see a Psalm 83 happening before Gog/Magog. To me, it is more logical (and the current affairs in the Middle East back it up) that Gog/Magog would follow.

We appear to be on the brink of a showdown with Russia, Syria and Iran poised to make there move. There is NO evidence Israel is planning a move against the Arabs.

The Russian attack comes first, THEN the way would be clear for a Psalm 83 to take place.

Billy said...

Paragraph correction:

SHOULD BE: I don't see a Psalm 83 happening before Gog/Magog. To me, it is more logical (and the current affairs in the Middle East back it up) that Psalm 83 would follow Gog/Magog.

Rodney said...

Billy, Psalm 83 will find fulfillment in the confines of the Gog/Magog battle of Ezekiel 38/39.

Ezekiel 38:21 identifies that the Lord God will also judge all the nations that currently border Israel (Psalm 83), as they will slay each other in similar fashion to Judges 7:12,22 and 2 Chronicles 20:17-23. The term "my moutains" as provided in Ezekiel 38:21 refers to the natural borders of Israel!

"And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother"-Ezekiel 38:21. Many scholars have missed this valid point identifying a clear connection between the confederation of Psalm 83 and the Gog/Magog confederation.

Some scholars even wrote whole novels creating an alternative prophetic scenario of Psalm 83 all together, however as we can clearly see, this is an error!

Rapture Forums said...

Very good series. I agree completely. There seems to be an awful lot of "newspaper exegesis" out there today in the church. Most of these "newspaper prophets" are serving mammon rather than the word of God.

Keep the articles coming!

God bless.

SeanOsborne said...

Billy wrote:

"To me, it is more logical that Psalm 83 would follow Gog/Magog."

Billy,

I have two questions for you.

1.) Would it really be "more logical" for all of the Psalm 83 nations to attack Israel after being eyewitnesses to the utter carnage and literal annihilation wrought upon the massive armies that Gog of Magog brings against them???

2a.) If Psalm 83 follows Ezekiel 38/39 then how will it be possible for Israeli men to be burying every shard of every enemy soldier's bones in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan for the subsequent 7 months after the battle has ended? (i.e.: Will King Abdullah be giving the Israeli men special visas or passports in order to bury what's left of the enemy horde on his land?)

2b.) Do you know where the "Valley of the Passengers" is located east of the sea, or have the Lord and Ezekiel made an error in the text?

Anonymous said...

Hi guys and particularly Nathan, can anyone help me to put a case that there is such a single person as "the Antichrist" who will be both a worldwide dictator and someone who claims to be of deity? I have some amillennial-leaning brothers who are arguing hard that:

1. "the Antichrist" as in "the spirit of the Antichrist" doesn't prove there will be a single Antichrist. The definite pronoun is just a description of the type of people who oppose Christ in general, like how certain national varieties of English use "the hospital" in their grammar to mean hospitals as a type of object. In other words, "the Christ" is just a collective description of all who oppose Jesus in general.

2. They object putting Isaiah, Daniel, 1, 2 Thessalonians, 1 John, Revelation together to paint a picture of a single Antichrist, saying there is insufficient scriptural evidences the parallel passages point to a same person, if it is indeed a person at all.

Thanks all

Prophecy Dude said...

Dr. Reagan, I've been following you for like 30 years now and appreciate your no nonsense study and approach.

Anonymous said...

I might be wrong, but don't the Arabs think that ALL of Israel has to be killed before their god will come. Of course anyone who knows the Bible knows that Israel will be the last one standing..

Nathan Jones said...

Billy, I've yet to come across anyone who believes Psalm 83 happens after Ezekiel 38-39. Sean's questions demonstrate why.

Anonymous, check out Dr. Reagan's article The Rise and Fall of the Antichrist which have a lot of arguments the Amils would be hard pressed to ignore.

Anonymous said...

false prophet is in league with antichrist no takers?

Billy said...

Sean and Nathan,

I'm only half-Vulcan so my logic may be skewed.

Billy said...

Actually, if you look closely at what I said it DOES look more likely that the Russian, Syria and Iran would attack Israel than Israel attackin the arabs.

That is not to say things won't change, but if you were to take a poll, based on current conditions, I think more people would agree with me...

...for whatever that is worth :)

For now, I agree most with Rodney's reply "Billy, Psalm 83 will find fulfillment in the confines of the Gog/Magog battle of Ezekiel 38/39."

I can see Rodney's position as more plausible than Israel suddenly becoming an European style imperalistic kingdom builder as proposed by the Israelistine crowd.

Billy said...

Response to Sean:

Billy,

I have two questions for you.

1.) Would it really be "more logical" for all of the Psalm 83 nations to attack Israel after being eyewitnesses to the utter carnage and literal annihilation wrought upon the massive armies that Gog of Magog brings against them???

ANSWER:

1. I wouldn't put anything actions beyond the possibility of a Jew hater.

2. God will come down hard on all the evil people during the Tribulation yet they will refuse to turn to Him, they will hate Him even more.

I think I win Question 1.

2a.) If Psalm 83 follows Ezekiel 38/39 then how will it be possible for Israeli men to be burying every shard of every enemy soldier's bones in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan for the subsequent 7 months after the battle has ended? (i.e.: Will King Abdullah be giving the Israeli men special visas or passports in order to bury what's left of the enemy horde on his land?

ANSWER: Huh?

You win question 2.

2b.) Do you know where the "Valley of the Passengers" is located east of the sea, or have the Lord and Ezekiel made an error in the text?

ANSWER: Huh?

You win question 3.

The winner, with a score of 2-1, Sean Osborne!

Rodney said...

Psalm 83 is not a seperate battle creating a Greater Israel or increased prosperity, nor is it the IDF that is granted victory of these enemies, this is done by direct divine intervention! Isralestine is a fable plain and simple, created, utilizing out of context passages to build a base for a fictional alternative to a prophetic scenario, that is defined cleary in the context of Gog/Magog!

Daniel the Prophet identifies that there will be wars and desolations until the end. Joel the Prophet also indicates that the Land of Israel will continue to be partitioned even up to the battle of Armageddon! I just can not comprehend why so many will ignore the truth to prop up fables! The Lord God surely would not grant a great victory to Israel and then turn around and bring the Gog/Magog confederation against Israel for profaning his Holy Name among the nations!

It is true that the list of nations included in Psalm 83 that currently border Israel, are not named in Ezekiel 38/39 yet it is clear the reasoning behind this, is that the Lord God is not required to put hooks in their jaws and draw them against the borders of Israel, for they are already there. Ezekiel 38:21 not only there presence, yet the judgement meeted out upon them!

That's right, one by one, these fables will be revealed for what they are! Here is another tidbit that even a recent visitor was provided on his own blog. How can Damascus be destroyed by an Israeli strategic nuke, when verse 2 or Isaiah 17 indicates the cities will be for the grazing of flocks! Common sense dicated flocks of sheep or cattle can not graze on contaminated soil! Guess it will be an earthquake after all, huh! At least a few have their eyes open to the truth!

Billy said...

Rodney, as I've said I'm not on board with "Israelistine" and I do think Gog/Magog and Psalm 83 could be at or near the same time. I'm not arguing that.

But, I would point out re your comment:

"How can Damascus be destroyed by an Israeli strategic nuke, when verse 2 or Isaiah 17 indicates the cities will be for the grazing of flocks! Common sense dicated flocks of sheep or cattle can not graze on contaminated soil!"

I recently saw a program about the area around Chernobyl and surprisingly the plants and animals seem to be surviving without as much negative effect as one would imagine. There are wolves and deer and they don't have two heads and 10 legs. So I guess it is possible the area surrounding Damascus could support flocks.

But, to compare apples to apples and not oranges, Chernobyl was NOT a nuclear blast, it was a reactor meltdown and the effects are likely quite different.

It is clear the city will be destroyed but I agree it is not definite that it will be from a nuclear bomb.

Rodney said...

Billy, to confirm that the destruction of Damascus is not a result of any military action consider Isaiah 17:7! This verse identifies the fact that it is the hand of the Lord God that brings Damascus to a ruinous heap! I frankly believe it will be the great earthquake of Ezekiel 38:19,20 that will reduce the oldest continously inhabited city in the world!

As I have indentified previously that Syria will be the gathering point of much of the Gog/Magog offensive as they are drawn by the Lord God against the northern border of Israel. It is also known that the Lord God marshalls them into an open field where they will meet their end. The ancient Plain of Bashan in southern Syria adjacent to Damascus and the Israeli held Golan Heights appears to be this assembly point!

This is precisely why it is my accessment that Isaiah 17, Psalm 83, and Ezekiel 38/39 are but one event in which the Lord God will judge the enemies of Israel near and far! Hope this clarifies my position and I believe in short order we will see these things being fulfilled!

DrNofog said...

Hiroshima and Nagasaki have no flocks, herds, or even people cuz "Common sense dicated flocks of sheep or cattle can not graze on contaminated soil!"

Damascus can't be rebuilt and repopulated during the Trib because of all the more immediate distractions of "real", ongoing "wars and rumors of wars", all the continual preparations and maneuverings that will lead up to, and conclude with the Nuclear holocaust in the last 3.5yrs of the Trib!

And it won't be rebuilt during the Millennial Kingdom, not that it couldn't be, like H & N, but out of a deeper respect for the "prophetic" Word of God!

Billy said...

DrNofog said...
Hiroshima and Nagasaki have no flocks, herds, or even people cuz "Common sense dicated flocks of sheep or cattle can not graze on contaminated soil!"

DrNofog,

I'm sorry to differ with you. I saw with my own eyes a program which showed the area around Chernobly is heavily populated with wolves, deer or elk and birds. The area is radiated to the point that men can only visit briefly but the animals live there constantly. So it is possible for animal and plant life to live (thereby eat and graze) in a containminated area from radiation.

tori said...

rodney after reading your comment about Is.17,Ps.83,Ez.38,39 being one event...it came to my mind how God gives information to us. Like in Rev. the three Woes. So three prophecies about one event makes perfect sense and eliminates the mystery so many have thought was there. thank you so much and God Bless your diligence in His Truth.

Billy said...

btw, My last post does not mean I think Damascus will be destroyed by a nuke.

To those that are so either in favor of the Israelistine view or that Psalm 83 comes first...

Now a question for YOU

Exactly when will Israel be NOT surrounded by walls and NOT suspect of the Arabs that they can be taken by surprise by an Arab attack? Isn't that supposed to be the state of Israel prior to Psalm 83?

After God destroys Russia, Iran, Syria and it's cronies THEN I can see Isreal's drop it's defenses and feel in it's relative peace. With the Arabs big bad boys on the block not available for it to fall back on, and with the Arabs in a state of Arab Spring disarray, I can see where their threat level would be diminished to the point of an Israel with walls coming down and thinking it has less to fear.

That is why, again, the world, AS WE SEE IT TODAY, actually DOES support Gog/Magog then Psalm 83.

Am I right? I don't know. As you saw, Sean's questions are beyond me, I'm not an expert or scholar. All I can do is speculate with my limited knowledge and ability.

Billy said...

btw pt. 2, Rodney, I agree your "All in One" scenario makes much more sense to me than Israelistine type thinking.

Nathan Jones said...

The all-in-one makes no sense, for the nations of Gog-Magog are layed out meticulously and in detail in Ezekiel 38-39, totally precluding Israel's surrounding nations. The gaping hole is logically filled by Psalm 83.

Isaiah 17:9 tells us that the Israeli's are responsible for Damascus' one-day demise. And, Jeremiah 49:23-27 reveals fire will be involved, not earthquakes.

As for Damascus becoming a grazing ground, the world will be restored immediately after Christ's return and victory, so it'll be a grazing ground during the Millennial Kingdom, not the Tribulation.

As you see, there are legitimate reasons why no Bible prophecy scholar agrees with Rodney's assessment of end time events.

Billy said...

Now I see where I was mixed up and why I was thinking incorrectly.

Ezekiel 38-39 talks about the unwalled Israel, not Psalm 83.

Now that my facts are correct, actually I can see the following:

The Arabs of the Arab Spring (especially if their cause sympathetic Obama is re-elected)do indeed decide to attack Israel and get wiped out and put in their place once again by Israel's military.

I still don't see Israel becoming a dominant controller over it's conquered enemies (almost like a master over slaves). That part doesn't make sense to me.

So continuing, after this scenario I then see the Gog/Magog events playing out.

So my own error over the location of the unwalled Israel has been corrected, and for that I am grateful for this conversation.

Thanks all.

DrNofog said...

Billy, that was a little tongue-N-cheek humor on the logic.

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been rebuilt and are indeed populated wif animals & people...
;-)

Billy said...

Dr. NoFog,

I thought that was the case. I fell for it hook, line and sinker!

:)

Rodney said...

Tori, thank you so much for your comment, it is such a blessing to share the Word of God with others!

Rodney said...

Nathan, perhaps the all-in-one makes no sense to you personally, however, it makes perfect sense in relation to the actual prophetic passages. First of all, there is no gaping hole when you take the time and really read the context of Ezekiel 38/39! Within this frame, we can identify the Lord God using various cicumstances to draw many nations outside their perspective borders and that of their neighbors, into the region or borders of Israel!

As it is clear in the context that the Lord GOd will gather the Gog/Magog confederation to the borders of Israel, what need then would it be to list these nations who are already present! Ezekiel 38:21 without a doubt provides clarification regarding the presence of those listed or included in Psalm 83 as slaying each other by the sword! The term "my mountains" in this scripture refers to the natural borders of Israel!

Now to address Isaiah 17:9! The previous verses wholly indicate the destruction of Damascus comes by the hand of the Lord God and the following verses indicate the presence of a mulitnational confederation and their subsequent judgement! It is therefore clear that this prophetic event occurs within the confines of the Gog/Magog battle. Indeed the people of Syria abandon cities in close proximity to the borders of Israel and by reason of the children of Israel, for after witnessing the hand of the Lord upon many nations bordering the Jewish State, it would be wise not to find yourself any where near the border of Israel lest further judgement be poured out!

Now, let us continue on to Jeremiah 49:23-27 and address your view here! The term provided "kindle a fire" is found in many passages throughout the prophetic scriptures, yet this is not a literal fire as you would propose! This is a depiction of judgement or continous chastisement for refusing to acknowledge or be obedient! Like that of a consuming fire, continued rebellion would produce more judgement! It should further be evident that a ruinous heap suggests a violent event which is identified with an earthquake!

It may be true Nathan, that perhaps not a single scholar would agree with my accessment of these prophetic events as outlined in the scriptures yet we can not all be right now can we???

Billy said...

Rodney,

Didn't the Pharisees and teachers of the law always think they were right in their views which amounted to arrogance and ignorance?

Being a "scholar"...take it for what it's worth. Sometimes much, sometimes not so much. The title by itself means nothing.

Billy said...

Before any takes my comments wrong, I'm saying the title "scholar" alone is worthless...you have to look beyond it to what an individual teaches/believes.

Susie said...

Nathan... not that u need backup, but i aree with u on the subject. Seems quite logical and straight forward when u explain it.. :) thx

Susie said...

Just a sidebar... theresa garcia is another excellent prophecy teacher. She has a very simplistic way of teaching with charts, graphs and maps. Along with l&l i really have learned alot from her.

Rodney said...

Billy, in the days of Ezekiel there existed fortified or walled cities complete with watchtowers and infantry to keep intruders and invaders out! The current conditions in Israel even with the security perimeter fence does not constitute walled cities, for these are not permanent structures!

Israel today continues to exist as a Land of "unwalled villages", the term here is consistent with the modern Jewish Settlements not the cities of Israel! Ezekiel later provided a distinction here from villages (settlements) to cities identifed in Ezekiel 39:9.
This is another error in interpretation made by many scholars today regarding the conditions of Israel at the time of the Gog/Magog invasion!

There appears to be a consistent pattern with misinterpretation of prophetic passages done by modern scholarship today! The scriptures will always interpret themselves without the addition of speculation or sensationalism!

The prophetic passages of Ezekiel 38/39 also do not mention a time of peace, only that the citizens of Israel are established and confident in the ability of their military to defend them from enemies! The Land, is brought back from the sword or from desolation and destruction, it is a land thriving with natural beauty and resources!

There is at this time, nothing to prevent this battle from being realized other than the Lord completing his gathering of these enemies along the borders of Israel! Sheba and Dedan, the merchants of Tarshish, and all the young lions thereof are presently formed in a coalition, that will one day soon ask Gog and the Magog confederation, "Have you come to take a spoil and a prey"!

Rodney said...

Susie, according to the Apostle Paul, women are not to be teachers of doctine to men, nor are they to have a position of authority over men regarding the scriptures (1 Timothy 2:8-15), there is a natural order that the Lord God has established that is clearly outlined in the scriptures!

Rodney said...

I have also said previously many times that the West including Israel will not move militarily against Iran or Syria in intervention simply due to the prophecy of Gog/Magog! Ezekiel identifies that Russia will be a guard to all those forming the Gog/Magog alliance, they will also provide them arms, and train together in unison!

Understanding this, we also know that it is the Lord God that gathers Iran to the borders of Israel in the context of the Gog/Magog battle, this does not occur as a result of any military action on the part of the West or Israel! Russia, Iran, and many other are gathered by the Lord God against the borders of Israel under the umbrella of various cicumstances (Syria), yet while gathered the Russian leader (Gog) will think and evil thought to invade Israel.

We can expect that regardless of the rhetoric coming from the West (U.S., Europe) and Israel, they will not commit to any form of military intervention against Iran or Syria, that has been my position and it has been a proven one, that none can really deny! They will prepare, they will talk about it, at the end of the day, they will continue to do nothing!

Anonymous said...

Hi Nathan, this is the anonymous poster from post 8. I'm sorry but I'm afraid the article is just rehashing what we teach. The amillennial brothers I know are challenging us on this point "why the Bible must be interpreted this way, when there are perfect NT passages that show there is only one people of God?" It is pretty nasty, akin to asking why 1+1=2 type of fundamental tautology...

Can anyone offer more help? Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Question:

Isaiah 17 is clear that beyond Damascus and Aroer, (northern Jordan), so also does Ephraim (Northern Israel) and all of Jacob suffer almost on equal par with Damascus. They are barely inhabited. So how in the world could this be a set up to a victories Israel that is about to decimate all of the surrounding Arab nations? This makes no sense at all...

Anonymous said...

victorious...

amc said...

Anony, you should pick out a pseudonym and join the Christ in Prophecy Facebook group. There are a lot of good discussions there and plenty of opportunity to get questions answered.

Lynda O has a great blog article featuring Matt Waymeyer’s talk about Revelation 20 and the Millennial debate. You can click on her link and download Matt’s talk. Go HERE.

Matt has also written a valuable booklet by the same name. It is jam-packed with info in the main body but the end notes also supply a wealth of helpful points and resources for further study.

There are no NT verses that absolve or reinterpret God’s promises to Israel (Jer 31:31-37; Amos 9:14-15 etc). Not even the comparisons between Acts 2 to Joel 3 and Acts 15 to Amos 9. I recommend reading John Feinberg’s Continuity and Discontinuity.

Amils point to Romans, Galatians and Ephesians etc but they’re reading their conclusions into it. They ignore the implications of the disciples’ question to Jesus and His response in Acts 1:6-7. They use Rom 2:28-29 to argue that Gentiles who are circumcised in the heart are also Jews. But it doesn’t say that. In context, Paul is speaking to ethnic Jews. He simply means that true Jews (the remnant) are the ones who believe in Christ. Another favorite is Gal 3:28. But again it isn’t saying that Gentiles become true Israel. We still distinguish between males and females. Paul’s point is that, insofar as salvation is concerned, there are no gender or national distinctions. Mike Vlach has some great discussions on his website HERE

Don’t fall for the Expansion Theology argument. Zec 2 makes it clear that the nations will be God’s people yet obviously there’s still a national distinction. The new covenant promise to Israel in Jer 31 includes salvation, the land and a national distinction.

amc

Susie said...

Rodney, paul was talking about women teaching In the church. He didnt say.. be an egomaniac know it all... and refuse to learn from a woman who is so obviously more learned than u r.

Rodney said...

Susie, the Church is not designated as a building, it is a collective and corporate body of believers! Regardless of where this instruction is taking place regarding the scriptures a woman is not to teach or be in authority over men! It is unfortunate that so many ignore the Word of God and create their own version to fulfill their personal desires!

Regarding your second statement, if she were more learned, then perhaps she would be in obedience to the Word of God, therefore, that my friend, appears to be an impossibility!

Susie said...

U r wrong rodney. The passage in 1tim is absolutely addressing the teaching structure in the church. Im well aware of the set up paul details as being a picture of the relationship btwn adam and eve in the garden. Woman can teach as long as they do not usurp the authority if men. Quite frankly i have lost what little patience i had left with this one more rediculous twisted interpretaion of the bible according to rodney class.
Take care.. see everyone when the smoke clears. This site is officially NOT enjoyable anymore for me. It takes an awful lot to even upset me at all. But u dominate this site rodney. And im weary of it.

Rodney said...

Susie, anyone that accepts the so called prophets of the Elijah List such as Kim Clement and his band of false prophets, evidently, is lacking discernment! It appears Theresa Garcia is not as learned as you would suggest, must be part of the TBN family circus.

Will miss seeing you around Susie, I do not attempt to dominate anything yet I require that we examine what is being taught, that we question whether it be true as a good Berean! I have a great love for the scriptures (Word of God) and feel the need to reveal fables that seek to distort the plain truth! Actually, that is required of us all as believers.

Anonymous said...

"There are a lot of other problems with the Islamic Antichrist theory. One problem is that the person who talks the most about the Mahdi is the leader of Iran today, and that's a Shiite nation. The Shiites are at most 20% of the Muslims, really probably closer to 10%. Ninety percent of the Muslims in the world are Sunnis. I cannot believe that some Shiite Mahdi is going to rule all of Islam, because they argue that when he appears the first thing he is going to do is to declare that the Shiite version is the correct version of Islam. Then all of the Sunnis are suddenly going to say, "Oh, great!" and unite behind this guy?"

Reagan still insists that belief in the Mahdi is a Shi'a doctrine. This is just further proof that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

amc said...

Anony,

Since you went to the trouble to quote Dr Reagan you might have actually followed through with something a little more tangible than accusing him of not knowing what he's talking about.

I'm far from convinced the Mahdi character fits the biblical Antichrist. Totally different MO's.

Rodney said...

The Mahdi is an Islamic fable not even included in the the text of their Quran! Islamic fables have no bearing on biblical truth, some scholars today however have erroneously thought to give it credibility in comparing it with the truth concerning the AntiChrist of the Bible!

Anonymous said...

Rodney,

The only reason people point this stuff out is to show what 1.6 billion people are expecting. But simply looking at it does not mean that it is the same as the Bible. Its like this: Jesus came to a people who had been prepared by Abba by giving them the Bible, etc. So also will the Antichrist come to a people that Satan has prepared and given them the demonic Koran, but also their prophecies about the Mahdi. Of course there is no such thing, but that doesn't mean that Satan will not use their beliefs to rally them around his man.

Rodney said...

With the recent power grab of the Muslim Brotherhood gaining control of the Egyptian military and intelligence arm along with posting columns of tanks, apc's, and missile batteries on the border of Israel, Egypt is now a direct threat to the security of Israel! Interesting that there is no comment by the United States in this regard!

It seems clear that with the embrace of the Muslim Brotherhood by the WhiteHouse and State Department and the continued financing and arming of Egypt, Jordan, Libya, Sudan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf Emirates, that the Iranian threat is not the reasoning behind such cohesive cooperation!

It should also cause us to question, why would the greatest Super Power on the globe fail to react as they see the Gog/Magog invasion force assemble on the borders of Israel, are they then complicit in the planned destruction of Israel? This would then explain why the Lord God sends fire as judgement upon the United States and their European allies! Evidently the Lord God is revealing an alternative plan here that is hidden in which the West is provoking a regional conflict in the hopes that Israel and their Arab/Muslim enemies will mutally destroy each other!

Nathan Jones said...

Gee, Rodney, don't you ever play nice? Don't make me have to ban you like all the other sites have.

That being said, I agree with you concerning the Mahdi. There's nothing biblical about a Mahdi, Mohammed or at least his followers made it all up based on the Hadith. Satan doesn't know the future. Nobody can self-fulfill a kid pulling himself up out of a well after 800 years to rule Islam. The whole Islamic Antichrist thing is based on a fable.

Jan said...

I have enjoy this blog and do like to read all of the input from Rodney, Sue, Billy, Anonymous and all.
I do enjoy the sharing that's going on here and would like to continue to read all the input.

Thank you L&L.

Billy said...

Jan,

Ditto...I like to read the input from everyone...even those that I disagree with or are wrong (me sometimes) because in the end it makes you think about not only what others viewpoints are but also about your own!

Rodney said...

All this speculation will soon come to an end and what I have presented as Isaiah 17, Psalm 83, and Ezekiel 38/39 being one event, will be proven as a biblical fact as identified within the scriptures themselves! It will be a day when the Lord will be glorified!

Israeli planning to strike Iran will only accelerate the appointed time for Persia (Iran) to assemble on the borders of Israel! U.S. driven economic santions on Iran threatening Russian businesses, will only tighten the strategic relationship between Tehran and Moscow! It is also a biblical certainty that Russia will not allow Iran to be attacked!

Billy said...

Rodney,

Would you agree that what you are saying is these events ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE will be proven true, not according to Rodney?

That is how I take your posts. Some seem to think you are trying to self promote as a self appointed prophet who is full of himself. I don't see it that way. You truly and strongly believe what you say is the correct view BIBLICALLY, which to me makes total sense as to why you are so passionate about it.

Rodney said...

Billy, that is exactly what I am saying, this is not my personal view, it is what the scriptures identify with! I know many think I am arrogant because I challenge the viewpoint postulated by scholars today, however, none of us are above reproach. As you have already identified, the Isralestine portrayal does not fit the pattern shown in the scriptures in relation to Israel!

It was based on the assumption of scholars that the nations recorded in Psalm 83 were not included in the Battle of Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38/39, yet clearly Ezekiel 38:21 identifies that indeed they are included and will be subsequently judged! It is clear that the Lord God will cause the nations bordering Israel (inner ring) to slay each other! The text is clear regarding this, yet many refuse to acknowledge this fact, including Nathan Jones!

Billy, you have also seen the believe associated with a supposed assasination attempt on the AntiChrist also be revealed as a fable, simply by using the truth of the scriptures as it is presented yet again, there is no acknowledgement of this! If none will accept the truth as revealed in the scriptures, what more can possibly be done?

Billy, I sure hope you are not patronizing me here, being the so called honest broker, for I have earnestly studied the scriptures and have sought to include these findings in my comments to others! I hope I have not wasted such precious treasure on those that seek to ridicule what is learned in seeking to defend their position as it is proven to be a fable! All of you might despise me and consider me to be a fool, I am fine with that, yet what I am not fine with, is accepting fables and marketing them as truth!

Anonymous said...

Rodney ur record is stuck on Israelestine, thats but one view gleaned from reading Scripture, it may be the popular vew but from from being the only view. Illumination is NOT God given Revelation however passion filled and imo you are also wrong in your personal illimination. We shall soon know if any is right and how much we are wrong. Gods ways r not r ways and we will all have some egg on our faces, including Rodney.

Nathan Jones said...

Rodney, it's not what you're saying but how you're saying it. If any of us were 100% right about Bible prophecy we'd be God, which we clearly aren't. Plus, I agree with whomever's statement that you're using this blog as your own personal platform, when you have your own blog that's looking cool all on fire and all (last I looked).

Anonymous said...

Rodney, Nathan and many others in the past are correct that you present yourself as the only one who is seeing the truth in the prophecies. I disagree with some of your opinions but i don't refer to you as a "so-called scholar" who believes and propagates "fables", but this is what comes from you almost without exception. If you are dealing with cults then they are fables, but your brothers in Christ are entitled to teach their opinions without all the bad-mouthing.

Billy said...

Rodney,

I am not patronizing you. You are right, I have not bought into the Israelistine idea and I see that it says as if ONE of his headS.

Can someone be 100% about something Biblical without being God? Yes. I am 100% right that Jesus is God's Son. I believe it with every ounce of my being. Therefore I am passionate for I believe it to be true and will stand by my belief because of it.

Granted, Bible prophecy is open to opposing viewpoints, but because you have come to the conclusion that you're view is the correct one, you defend it extremely as you believe it to be the truth.

That being said, while arguing for Jesus as God's Son is undebatable, Bible prophecy IS debatable and viewpoints vary. Therefore, I would one should make allowances on (or at least be understanding of) end times prophecy differences among Christians. I wouldn't make allowances for the foundational beliefs of Christianity however.

Billy said...

Rodney,

Basically I commenting to you in the hope others may see where you're coming from and be understanding and tolerable of things that may bother them in your posts, for your passion is of what you see as truth...and vice versa.

God bless!

Rodney said...

Billy, thanks for that! I am sure there are many more that grace these forums that understand not only my passion for the truth yet would also agree with what I have presented! Actually, I have not offered anything that was not already there ready to be discovered! The Word of God is a treasure and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit as our map, our quest to know whom we worship will bring bountiful rewards!

Rodney said...

Why are there so many anonymous posters here, it is hard to keep track of who is addressing whom! Evidently, everyone was born with a name and most have a photo or two of themselves, how about we try and produce a real identity! It is not fair to be bombarded by multiple anon's and reply to them under that heading! Nathan, I believe it is time for you to step in and change this pattern, after all you are the administrator!

Rodney said...

Nathan, you are right, I do have a blog, yet I do not have such a wide audience as Lamb and Lion Ministries! While your ministry is well known from both internet and television it provides a forum for a more broader discussion from a larger pool of those seeking to share their perspective! Since you have the wider audience, basically, I am capitalizing off of it in order to provide my perspective and gain insight by shared opinions in a variety of prophetic events to take place!

Nathan Jones said...

Rodney, remember Mitchell a few years back? He was using this blog as his own personal teaching site. I had to tell him this was L&L's personal teaching site and we could not let it be used as anyone elses as it represents our ministry. Same applies to anyone.

Folks have the right to remain anonymous, though it would be nice if they picked some kind of handle by which to be identified.

Anonymous said...

Rodney spouts - I am capitalizing off of it in order to provide my perspective and gain insight by SHARED OPINION in a variety of prophetic events to take place!

'SHARED opinion' is not what you do Rodney and THAT'S the problem.

You stridently (NOT passionately) state your estimation of events as the, be all, and end of all, of all opinions, and disparage everyone else's by pouring scorn and ridicule on any that don't agree with you. No doubt it will get me deleted again, but humility is not your forte and it’s the egotistical manner by which you impose your view upon others who come to the Lamb and Lion site NOT Rodney’s Soapbox venting as ‘thus saith the Lord’.

Beside which I didn’t like the conceited way you spoke down to Susie – there’s no need, or excuse for such condescension. This isn’t the military! If you don’t like this opinion of you, then realise you are reaping what you have sown.

If you object to Anonymous, then deal with it on your own untilled plot and let Nathan plough this furrow.

Nathan Jones said...

I won't delete this time, Anonymous, because you're absolutely right. Rodney, take what this person is saying in brotherly love for your own benefit. You'll go a lot farther sharing the Gospel and probably in every human interaction you engage in if you follow their advice.

Billy said...

Why is Israelistine unlikely? Why are Psalm 83/Gog/Magog eiterh the same event or within a brief period of time of each other?

Does anyone SERIOUSLY believe the Russians and the Iranians and Syria and Egypt and Turkey and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Lebanon...etc..the whole crazy bunch...would sit by and DO NOTHING while Israel took over the whole region like some British Imperial Army from the past?

And is God going to be glorified by the Israeli Army decimating the Arabs and then planting the Jewish flag in all the Arab nations?

No! God will be glorified when He RESCUES a FAILING Israel under attack, not assisting an overpowering Jewish Crusade against the Arabs.

Israelistine makes no sense.

Nathan Jones said...

Billy, does a one-world leader make any sense? Who could get all those bickering, squabbling, fighting nations who individually want to rule the world to submit to one authority and one religion? That's quite impossible in this age, but we're talking about a different age when the Restrainer is removed, aren't we? Something BIG has to happen to make the nations want to unite, and it'll take something almost as BIG to get the Arab nations to wish to attack little Israel all at once.

Billy said...

Nathan,

You are correct.

1. I was thinking in terms of NOW.

2. All bets are off as to rationality after the Rapture (which I believe is pre-Gog/Magog.

So, considering those 2 points my brain, like my Garmin Nuvi, is "Recalculating".

:)

Rodney said...

I will continue to believe that Isaiah 17 which declares the destruction of Damascus and Psalm 83, which records a plea for divine intervention against the Arab/Islamic enemies currently bordering Israel will find fulfillment in the context of the Gog/Magog battle of Ezekiel 38/39!

It is also my belief that these will find fulfillment prior to the Rapture of the Church! Ezekiel the Prophet clearly identifies the current strategic allignments including the present Shia/Sunni divide! Ezekiel also identifies the current alliance of the West with Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. (United Arab Emirates)! Russia, Iran, and Syria stand in clear opposition to the West and their bid for dominance of the region under the guise of humanitarian concerns!

I am saddened by the fact that it appears, I am the only one that holds this view for whatever reason, I can only sum it up as being blessed to have been provided this instruction from the Holy Spirit! May we all be willing to receive instruction from the Holy Spirit, always to the glory of the Lord God!

The Patriarchs, Prophets, and Apostles were at one time or another considered arrogant and not worthy to provide instruction, they too were counted as nothing, yet in the end they revealed the marvelous glory of the Lord God and his plan for the ages! The scriptures have been provided for instruction and this forum is presented for discussion, yet it appears only when it agrees with the interpretation of Nathan Jones and Dr. David Reagan! Sadly this is why the Church is in the condition it is now, men seeking power over others and elevating themselves with no accountability!

Go ahead and ban me from this forum, yet know this, the Lord is a righteous judge, he gives and he takes away and you will consider the meaning of this in sorrow!

Billy said...

Looks like all this discussion will be reaching a conclusion soon. I think this is one thing we can ALL agree on.

Billy said...

i.e. The Rapture is near!

Anonymous said...

men seeking power over others and elevating themselves with no accountability!

Which is EXACTLY what you are doing here Rodney, elevating your bragging views above all others. That would be fine if you actually were a Patriarch, an Apostle or a Prophet - which, of course, you aren't, you just act as if you are, but you DO think that you are, don't you Rodney!

The thing is, all divinely inspired men had two thing in common that you sorely lack – an ability to be humble and inerrancy.

Susie said...

Rodney, i cant believe what i just read... u r saying that u are the only one the Holy Spirit speaks to and reveals truth of scripture to? Ur arrogancy has no limits. I study scripture daily and i am in prayer for several hours a day. I can do that because i cannot work... now having said that, im not bragging or being arrogant, ive never shared that inormation with anyone before. I cant believe u compare yourself with the apostles.... and that the Holy Spirit shows u things and it seems to me u think we are all not searching scripture like wonderful you do. Your fruit is showing your seed. That is a truth of scripture that cant be denied. I want to learn bible prophecy from lamb and lion and have discussions with other believers with a spirit of humility and the fruits of the Holy Spirit in action ..... you should realize the Holy Soirit is NOT teaching u the ugliness in your posts.

Susie said...

Rodney, u arent in any respective position to provide me with nothing other than fellowship and unity in loving and seeking our Lord and his righteousness. I feed on the meat of the word every moment of the day. You are on drugs or something if u think God is feeding u the seed that produces ur rotten fuit. U have no clue what the fruit the HS produces. Thats why i know u r cluless about most of ur bloviation that uselessly spews out when u speak. Uglieness is never Gods fruit. never. Think about that and read one of gospels for a few days and think.. just think... i will pray for u.

Susie said...

rodney dont EVER think that u know our God and the bloggers dont.. some of them may not but some do. I Know Him very well .... living a life of worship .. prayer... and service to the glory of God our father. He teaches me.. leads me... covers me with his feathers.. i ABIDE under the shadow of the almighty!: i guatantee u ... u abide in ur own ego and self gratification. We can argue and debate prophecy all we want and that is good and healthy. But YOU do not represent out precious Lord in ANY way. He is a gentleman. U are not .. ur fruit is rotten. It is tangible evidence or ur inerrency and totally out of line self righteous self absorbed errent... i could go on for a while. dont attempt to teach me anything. Because of ur friuit .. i know who ur teacher is.

Anonymous said...

So there it is then Nathan. Rodney is anticipating an interesting reply from you. So straighten up and do as you are told! Q-U-I-C-K m-a-rCH - ya hear me fella? - left - left - left

Anonymous said...

Rodney, your first question seems to be based on a faulty premise.

Fourth Beast (iron) of Daniel is Rome.
Its development as the first IMPERIALIST form of government.

These are the heads that WERE.
1. Tarquin Kings – 1st head
2. Consulors – 2nd head
3. Plebians – 3rd head
4. Republicans – 4th head
5. Triumvurate – 5th head
These heads of Rome are all fallen.

Now is.

6. The United stage of Rome. The Two Division stage. The One World government stage. The Ten Division Stage.
These constitute the 6th head which ‘ now is’…from John to now.

7. The Antichrist Stage is yet to come as the 7th Head which is killed.

A. Seventh head rises to power with the First World War of the Tribulation. (First seal opened by Jesus in Rev.6:1; signing of a 7 year Covenant Daniel 9:27.
B. Second World War of the Tribulation a/c will be killed (literally), resurrected, kills three kings and seven kings submit to a/c. Rules the world for 3 ½ years
C. Third World War of the Tribulation a/c is killed by the return of Jesus.

Note* Rev.13:3 re. the death of a/c
And I saw one of his heads AS IT were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev.5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, AS IF SLAIN, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
(Jesus literally died. It is Jewish idiom that SEEMS to present a doubt about death. Likewise, a/c will also literally die then be resurrected (God permitting)

Notes taken from “Footsteps of the Messiah” by Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

(I think you are confusing the heads with the ten horns which come out of the 7th head. a/c will be the 11th horn)


Anonymous said...

Rodney

Ezek:38:21 "I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains," declares the Lord GOD. "Every man's sword will be against his brother.

Your 2nd question concerning ‘on all my mountains’ seems to be limiting the Promised land to present, nationally drawn borders only? Given that ALL the mountains of the earth belong to God, in this context I believe ALL is confined to the land God promised to Abraham for an everlasting possession. (Greater Israel) These God aligned borders run from the River Euphrates to the Mediterranean Sea and on down to the ‘River of Egypt’ (possibly the Nile, more likely a smaller river of that name in the Sinai)

Psalm 83:6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;7. Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.

The names of the nations given in Psalm 83 have man made borders that run up to the present, man made borders of Israel.
These are not mentioned by Ezekiel but other countries instead, some of which presently occupy the Promised Land.

It seems God will be clearing the whole area in preparation for future Hebrew occupation?

That said I would say the literal meaning is very plain – but – I suspect you are wondering after an allegorical meaning which can be as varied an opinion as there are those to voice one.

Susie said...

I read and study the wors of God on a daily basis. I have stated before my life of dedication i shouldnt need to repeat that but as usual u throw out ur empty accusations that we dont search scripture but obviously u r wrong about that AGAIN. U constantly repeat yourself without EVER reconsidering ur own narcisistic false prophet self ego promoting "other" gospel .... and i am not angry at all when people correct me or teach me when they r correct. I have prayed about u and where u come from for quite a while cuz i do love u in the Lord and u served like my beloved husband did so i feel a connection to u. But after reading the whole bible .. altho i will always be on a journey with the HS daily searching scripture .. forever HIS diciple.. i feel in my heart u r purposely seeking to mislead people to serve your own ego's pupose on a borrowed platform... its my opinion lamb and lion needs to remove u from this forum permanently because of the many reasons i have articulated. Your vastly errant "revalation" of scripture and the evil fruit that falls from ir tree identifies u as what u r and i think the reasons have been explained and identified enough times. I will continue to be in prayer for u rodney i really care about u but these readers need to know that listening to u is a danverous diversion from the truth of our Lord and u need to silenced from using ur borrowed platform. Nathan will probably delete these commentz which is fine but i hope enough people read it first. Sue was right about u a year ago. I found out for myself tho but lost a blessing when she left. I appreciate the blessing that the Lord brought with this anon tho. U r blessed anon. Ur a child of The Living God and i love in Yeshuas name.. :):):)

Susie said...

Nathan i just wanna say... i feel lamb and lion is an excellent forum proclaiming the Lords soon return with the HS guiding your ministry to His glory. I praise God for ur ministry and i believe with ur very reasonable prices for ur resource material and the fact that Dr Reagans teaching and preaching is not only biblicaly accurate but in the spirit of humility u all speak publically that some things are left a big obscure for the express purposes of YahWeh .. my point being i do not feel ur ministry is for profit or self serving purposes. U guys r a blessing to many and i love u all and my friends on this blog and that includes rodney! However he is more than just a passionate christian who is sometimes out in left field. He is a self promoting false profit using ur platform to mislead Gods sheep. All this said with love and i pray u know that:):):)

Anonymous said...

My goodness, gracious me Rodney, what utter rot! With the administrator attending to his Church and family duties, as he does every weekend, I thought to do you a service and acknowledge your questions in a perfectly civilised manner while you await Nathans reply - and you call it an 'attack' against your person! How so? How does a simple, courteous reply constitute such aggression to demand that I have struck, molested or done any violence to you whatsoever!

Obviously you are marching to the beat of your own drum and consider yourself the ONLY person in step. Now THAT is a clear case of acute paranoia and unrivalled egotism the like of which I have never encountered in my entire life, ever before. It seems to me that you are shocked and overcome by getting a reply to what you deemed to be ‘sewn up’ and unanswerable.

Compose yourself Rodney, before you burst a blood vessel; I assure you I am independent of this blog and have NO connection with Lamb and Lion whatsoever, neither is any remuneration forthcoming as you maliciously arraign me. Your indictment has no foundation whatsoever.

Susie said...

.... a ..BIT... Obscure.. not big :)

Susie said...

Anon, i think he may have been referring to my post when he said those accusations. Who knows.

DrNofog said...

Yay Susie, and so glad to see U you back again!!!

"...Rodney, u arent in any respective position to provide me with nothing other than fellowship and unity in loving and seeking our Lord and his righteousness..."

You have so correctly nailed him on that, and on so much more!

----

Rodney,

I personally, would like to see you continue here, just for examining and considering the differing POVs from anyone, whomsoever, that has one to offer.

But it seems like, more and more, in addition to you boldly admitting that you have been deliberately usurping LL's blog for your own personal agenda, without any apology whatsoever, and then, after having exposed your-own-self, you moreover, are even then more brash, even brazenly wanting to taunt and viciously bite the hand that even allows you to roost here, with your constant accusations heresy and "fables"!!

Rodney, can you not see yet how you have finally presented yourself to the whole world?!?

Susie said...

Dr nofog... thanks for the welcome back!! I love it here... but im not going to deal with rodneys balony anymore. It makes it too difficult with his constant rabbit trail venture and fables extrordinaire... lemme ask u a question doc.... in reference to 1tim2:9-15
my study of this scripture is that paul is teaching that women are not to usurp the authority of men in the church(as in the structure of an individual church) .. he does not say women can never be qualified or able to teach. And i dont know right now the place in acts where it is recorded that paul had trained a female to preach!!! I will find it tho..
anyway... u r someone whos opinion i trust and im looking forward to ur thoughts on this.

Susie said...

Having asked that... i do understand pauls point about adam and eve...

Billy said...

The latest L&L blog post has several prophecy teachers address "Preterists believe the book of Revelation was written before 70 AD and that it contains prophecy that has been fulfilled rather than prophecies that relate to the future."

I read the responses very carefully and found them to be respectful. The harshest reply actually came from Nathan and even that "harsh" remark was very mild critisism "...they've got to be blind."

I point this out as I respectfully suggest to Rodney that were his replies made in a similar fashion he would not find such reaction as he receives. I hope he too will read that article from the perspective of how to best get your message out if you want it to be considered thoughtfully and without hostility.

Tori said...

To me the picture Paul is considering with the husband and wife or even man and woman apologies have to to with Christ /grace and the law. I truly believe the law was creeping into the new church so the parable of wife (law)stay quiet in the church(husband/Christ/grace) was used. The picture of marriage is used all thru the bible to explain the relationship between The Lord and believers. Also I personally think the thorn in pauls side that struggled against may have been the religion he left for Jesus leaving all those feast of atonement and standing simply on Christ. Even religious habits are hard tho over come. Just my two cents worth please do not say I am a blind scholar and criticize. We all have our thoughts.

Jan said...

Ok everyone can we proceed further. We have so many books on prophecy and so many scholars on it as well, so let's pray for one another as we should, and continue to grow. Thank you Holy Spirit. We have some new articles to respond to. Let 's not be discouraged, upset, or anything else and be able to uplift one another, ok.

Love to all!



Susie said...

Tori, i agree with u about pauls thorn.... i bet he was reminded pretty much constantly be satan for the horrible things he did in his pre- born again life!

Jan i agree with u that we need to move on. I will pray too about all this. Hopefully rodney has learned that he needs to act right or he is going to get called on it. But i do love him in the Lord and he knows that.

Docnofog!!! Im looking forward to u giving me ur insight on my question i asked u above :):):)


MARANATHA! COME LORD JESUS WE LOVE U!!!

Billy said...

When anyone tries to modernize or update God because His nature doesn't fit the standards of today, which could be called political correctness, then you are in danger of falling down a slippery slope.

I left a Lutheran church (after discovering it's true liberal nature).

The female pastor that came in began to push her politically correct agenda of pro-gay, pro-abortion and the degenderizing of God and Jesus. It was disgusting.

God is God. Man can NOT create Him into their image.

Nathan Jones said...

Sorry, Gang, for Rodney's rants. After years of somewhat civil conversation, it appears he really has gone off the deep end. Like on our Facebook group, I'm now forced to ban his comments here on the blog until he returns with a spirit of humility. If you were all offended by him, I do apologize, and ask that we keep him in your prayers.

Susie said...

Well my question 1tim2:9-15 is what dou think paul is teaching here in context of scripture. No current liberal interpretaion... i feel paul was teaching the in the church setting women r not to usurp the position of men. I understand that when (and im paraphrasing) he teaches women must have their head covering in church that is referring to being under the authority of her husband .. however paul had a female he taught to teach under him and that is in acts ... im going to go look it up. I was hoping docnofog would help me out with this too but he must be busy and not checkin in right now. ... my viewpoint is that he wasnt saying women couldnt ever be teachers but that they had to be under the authority of a man. Thats how i understand it. But i welcome input

Billy said...

Nathan,

Sorry to hear about Rodney and I understand where you HAVE to come from as the admin of this site. I was trying to reach him in my comments in this article in hopes that he would calm down. Having been in his shoes myself I felt sorry for him. Thankfully I was able to work through my issues. I pray that Rodney can do the same.

Nathan Jones said...

Susie, women in the Church causes controversy and is off-topic, but the following is my standard answer:

Men were put over women, just as God is over men (Gen. 3:16). In pastoring, worship leading and preaching, men are to take the lead, a point Paul brings up again in Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 5. The Bible talks about the other important roles women play in the family and in the Church (1 Cor. 14; 1 Tim. 2; Tit. 2).

I seen no problem in a woman carrying out responsibilities in the church under the authority of the elders. In that regard, I see no problem in a woman serving as say a deacon. But, I believe the Scriptures make it clear that a woman is not to be put in a position of spiritual authority, like serving as an elder or pastor. The Bible assigns roles to men and women within the family and within the church. This does not mean that one is superior to the other. The parallel can be found within the Trinity. The Bible teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal, but that they have different roles. The Father sent the Son to be our Savior. The role of the Holy Spirit is to work in the background to lift up Jesus as the only hope for the world. Each has His own role, some subordinate to others, but all are equal.

Women pastors seem to miss that God's position doesn't have anything to do with superiority/inferiority between men and women, but a matter of submission to God's will. If a woman can't submit to God's will and instead seeks to become a pastor, then they will also be flawed in many other areas doctrinally as well.

"This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word." - Isaiah 66:2b

For further information, also see:
http://www.gospelway.com/teaching/women_preachers.php
http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/women-deacons.html

Barry said...

Susie,Here is what Paul is saying in 1 Tim. If a male teacher is more qualified, he should take the lead(verse 12). Now about verse 11, its meaning is made clear in 1Cor.14:34-34. Back in the 1st century church the men set together on one side and the woman set on the other. While Paul was teaching the women would try to ask their husbands what is he teaching about. This would be pretty disruptive, so Paul tells the woman to be quite and ask at home. This has nothing to do with woman teachers or preachers. I have heard some really good women teach and preach. I hope this helps. God Bless

Susie said...

Barry, thank u so much. I really appreciate ur insight and i love that u gave me scripture with it. I knew he wasnt saying women arent allowed to teach at all... but i needed to have some fellow blogger to agree with me on it cuz i knew paul wasnt saying women couldnt teach ... thank u again and God Bless you :):):)

Susie said...

Nathan, thank you. I didnt even see ur entries til just now. And people go off topic all the time so i dont know why that had to be pointed out but if i comment in the future i will be sure to stay on topic. And... i wasnt asking for everyone to explain that for my benefit as i already understand the teaching paul was writing about. I said that to rodney. I wanted explaination from others for rodneys benefit . Thank u tho! !!

Anonymous said...

From a woman a big Amen to NATHAN'S
comment. May I add that Lois and Eunice taught Timothy and were acknowledged by Paul for a job well done, so women can teach the youth of both sexes as well as other women.
Women were to be subject to their OWN husbands, not all men as some would like!
A woman having conversation with men about the Faith, such as this blog, is not taking over their authority as in a local assembly. Men don't HAVE to watch or listen to a woman teacher via video if it worries their conscience. :-\

Susie said...

Nathan i am sorry if i sounded rude... but the whole thing with rodney started way back when i commented to an anon on about theresa garcia being a good prophecy teacher about the subject that was being discussed!!!!! So i was surprised u said that. The only reason i asked about it was to get backup so rodney would read it.
But thank u that its all over now. And i am praying for rodney, and all if us of course to remain focused on our Lord Jesus... :):):)

Billy said...

How could one add to Nathan's eloquent and correct reply? You can't. All I can say is well said and thank you.

DrNofog said...

Hey Susie, not ignoring you, well, maybe a little bit...

Celebrating 41 yrs with my dear wife today and thot I/we'd take a rain-ck on that one.

But for a thot, isn't it interesting that in that society where women were regarded as 2nd class humans, that God deliberately chose them to be 1st to "preach", announce, declare, proclaim the "Gospel" [Old English for 'good news'] to the Apostles and disciples, and hence, the world?!?
;)

Susie said...

No biggie doc! Thanks! :)

Billy said...

Men have their roles. Women have their roles. Anyone who tries to cause division in the church because of it has some personal problem or agenda and therefore feels the need to prove that God isn't a sexist by highlighting the roles of either women or men in the Bible.

Get over it.

Billy said...

For example...to quote Nathan "Scriptures make it clear that a woman is not to be put in a position of spiritual authority, like serving as an elder or pastor."

If someone has a problem with that then the problem isn't with God, it is with that person.

God doesn't need to PROVE anything to ANYONE nor pass ANYONE'S litmus test on OUR own stupid roles of man vs woman discussion.

I don't think "that God deliberately chose them to be 1st to "preach", announce, declare, proclaim the "Gospel" either to prove He isn't sexist NOR to make a statement about how sexist the world is.

Why can't we just take that beautiful, wonderful moment in the Bible and leave it at that...why does it have to be turned into an object lesson on sexism?

Susie said...

Billy i dont know if ur comments r directed at me or not but i have no issues with the word of God concerning this issue at all. The whole thing started with rodney. All i wanted was another mans point of view on the scripture to show rodney how ludicris his comments were. All i did was suggest that teresa garcia is another good prophecy teacher. Then he started with his deal. So that was all there was to it. I personally have nothing to get over... so i hope ur kinda mean comment wasnt directed at me. If u take the time to read the whole thing u would see what i just explained. Im done with talking about it.

Billy said...

Susie,

My comments weren't directed at you (or Dr.NoFog though I referenced some of his post). Just a general comment.

I don't think I would ever direct anything negative at you! No way! I know exactly who and how this comment stream started.

Here's why I'm touchy on the subject...

I went to a Lutheran church for a while and quit after I learned they were very liberal.

They hired a female Pastor with a liberal agenda who started throwing in pro-gay stuff in the sermons, somewhat implied pro-abortion stuff, and try to degenderize Jesus and God.

So the verse that goes like "I am unworthy to untie the thongs on His sandals" became "the one whose sandals I am unworth to untie". Yet the snuck in a reference to God as "Mother" in once service. Guess gender is okay if it is female.

So basically my comment is towards liberal feminists and their male sympathizers who put political correct agendas and values and degenderization as they main cause. Those are the ones with a problem and need to let it go and accept God for Who He is and quit feeling like a victim.

Billy said...

Funny how my brain was thinkg one word and my fingers were typing another in my last post.

Susie said...

Billy, im so glad u werent mad at me:)
Personally i love it that God is male... men r supposed to be stronger... u no what i mean.. the differences compliment eachother i think. But anyway i agree with u.

tori said...

Amen to how the spirit of the thread has turned to love and uplifting in our love of the Lord even when we miss understand each other. God Bless all your sweet spirits.