Wednesday, November 14, 2012

Atheist Arguments: Evil Precludes God

Nathan JonesWatch MP3 PDFBy

Are Atheists correct that because there is so much evil in the world then there cannot be a God?

Dr. David Reagan and I on our ministry's television show Christ in Prophecy had the pleasure of asking this question of Eric Barger of Take a Stand! Ministries. Eric is an authority on the cults, the New Age, and rock music today. From his past as a former drug addict and rock n' roll musician who was deeply involved in the New Age movement, Eric has emerged since he gave his life to Jesus Christ to become a great defender of Christianity in America. He joined us to discuss why Atheists think the way they do.

Eric Barger

Dr. Reagan: The number one attack I hear from Atheists against Christians of all time is, "How can a God of love tolerate so much suffering and evil in the world? If He really exists then why does He tolerate it?"

Eric Barger: The fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden is exactly why we have the evil that we have. Every problem we've got, every disease, everywhere, every evil of all kinds, all emanates from the fall of mankind in the Garden. God is bringing rectification to it. It's not happened yet, but we are living in that period where man has his own free will. He's his own moral agent. He gets to do his own thing, but there is still a God who is ultimately in charge of all things.

Dr. Reagan: God has always created creatures with free will — both angels and us. With free will, because God doesn't want to be worshiped by robots, He wants to have a relationship with people. But, men instead have used that freewill to rebel against God. Why blame that on God?

Eric Barger: People do want to blame all their problems on God. In that process, they claim there is no God and ask, "How could a God that's loving allow all this evil to take place? How could God allow little children to suffer the way He does?"

And yet, God came in the flesh to die for our sins. He's given everyone of us a way out of the punishment for our sins. Every one of us have a way out through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who went to the cross to pay the price for me and for you and for everyone else. In having accepted Jesus as the Son of God and Savior, we will never perish but have eternal life.

Separating God in the Testaments

Dr. Reagan: Richard Dawkins is one of the leading Evolutionist and Atheist spokesman in the world today. He loves to attack the Bible on his basis that it reveals a God who is vengeful and wrathful and arbitrary. Dawkins claims the Old Testament ought to be x-rated. How do you respond to that?

Eric Barger: Go back to Church History and to Marcion who was one of the original Gnostic cultists in the Church. He said that the God of the Old Testament couldn't be the God of the New Testament. Dawkins isn't claiming anything new. It's the same old idea spouted by Marcion.

Here's what's happening, God has revealed to man his sinful nature and condition by the Law set up in the Old Testament. Jesus then comes along and proclaims He is the way out of our sin and that He is going to pay the price for you and me.

Dr. Reagan: If you study both testaments carefully you will see that the God of the Old Testament is a God of grace, love and mercy just as the God of the New Testament is also gracious. God never did change His personality or His character.

Nathan Jones: People seem to picture Jesus like as a weak lamb, and surely Jesus gave up for a time a lot of His power and strength being God incarnate. Jesus came peacefully. People forget though that Jesus whipped the money changers out of the Temple. When Jesus returns He's going to slaughter all the armies of the Antichrist. He's going to judge people and send them to Hell if they continue in disobedience to Him. This is Jesus we're talking about. So, Jesus clearly is not some weak cosmic teddy bear. He's God.

Dr. Reagan: We've got to look at both sides. God is a God of love, grace and mercy, but He is also a God of justice, righteousness and holiness. This false idea that Jesus is some willy-nilly type of person is just not accurate. Listen to Revelation 2 where Jesus is speaking to the Church at Thyatira. "Behold, if you don't repent, I will cast her [this evil woman Jezebel in the Church] upon a bed of sickness and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation unless they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with pestilence. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts." That doesn't sound like a patsy to me.

Eric Barger: Right along with this, we have a lot of people in the Church or who claim to be the Church who want only a God of love and never to be a God of justice. We also have the same problem from the opposite angle coming from the Atheists against us. They're saying God is only a God of justice.

Dr. Reagan: But how can a God of love ignore a pedophile who is hurting children? How can He ignore a cold blooded murderer? He's not a God of love if He ignores that. If He is a God of righteousness, He has to deal with those sins, otherwise He's not just or loving.

Eric Barger: The Bible says God definitely is going to deal with sin, and indeed God even now is dealing with sin on a daily basis.

Christians have to understand that we are still living behind enemy lines. That's really part of Christian living. We have to look at the whole picture of where we are in this time during the Church Age, and the big picture view shows we are truly living behind enemy lines. We have an enemy that is still prowling around like a roaring lion looking to devour God's children.

God Exists

Dr. Reagan: What do you consider to be the most powerful argument in behalf of the existence of God?

Eric Barger: I think Creation would be the first argument. I think the second argument is the fulfilled prophecies of Jesus Christ the Messiah, because no one could have orchestrated the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Just think about the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled. To me that says it all. And, Jesus, what did He do? He continually over and over pointed to His Father in Heaven.

Dr. Reagan: I say, "Amen, amen, amen" to that!

Let's go back to your very first point about the Creation, Eric. The Bible says that all of Creation points to a Creator, and it does. I have a watch here, yet I don't believe that watch came into being by a wind blowing through a junk yard. There had to be somebody who conceived that watch, drew a design for that watch, and put that watch together. When you look at the Creation there has to be a Creator.

Nathan Jones: Darwin said that single cell organisms were very simple. My son just recently did a project on plant cells. He marveled, "Dad, there are thousands and thousands of little organic machines inside each cell. They all have to work together for that cell to survive. And that's just one cell."

Dr. Reagan: Darwin lived before we had the microscope so he didn't know those things.

Nathan Jones: True, but a kid can look at a cell and obviously see something important that Darwin couldn't see.

Eric Barger: Tragically, though, the Atheists of today still look at Darwin as their leader.

Nathan Jones: Yes, or they call themselves Neo-Darwinists.

Eric Barger: These people today have so much that they now understand due to Science that Darwin couldn't understand in his day, and yet still they depend on his Theory of Evolution. It is a theory, and that's all it is.

We have empirical proof that there is a God who had interaction with men and who sent His Son. At some point before death, we have to make the decision concerning whether we are going to follow Jesus Christ or reject Him.

In the fourth segment on why Atheists think the way they do, we'll explore how we know the Bible isn't just a fairy tale.


Billy said...

Dr. Reagan: God has always created creatures with free will — both angels and us. With free will, because God doesn't want to be worshiped by robots, He wants to have a relationship with people. But, men instead have used that freewill to rebel against God.


I assume we will still have free will in our eternal bodies but our sin nature will be removed by God. We won't be robots, just incapable of sin.

Is this correct to your knowledge? If not, how do you understand it to be?


Nathan Jones said...

Agreed, Billy. The angels clearly have free will as well, as a third chose to rebel against God. Makes one ponder if we can then rebel in the eternal state still, or without a sin/rebellious nature it'd never come to mind. Being a perfect condition, that must be the case (I hope).

Susie said...

Nathan... sorry to go off subject .. but i was wondering if u have read yet that idf killed a hamas leader and his son this morning? I read this on 'israel nation' website. The reason im asking u about it is because im not an expert on these things at all... and the article makes it sound pretty serious... calls it an all out war...

Nathan Jones said...

I did, Susie. All the Bible prophecy buffs have been batting various articles around all morning. Sean Osborne will have an article up soon I'm looking forward to reading.

Frankly, a bunch of bad guys trying to provoke Israel and finally getting a response and then getting mad over the response is hypocritical craziness. They're getting what they wanted. Will it blow up into the Psalm 83 War? Well, we'll have to wait an see. God's restraining hand continues to hold back a war that should have happened long ago.

Susie said...

Thanks nathan. When that article is posted could u tell me where to read it please? I have a deep sense of ... not fear... but that something serious is getting started. Like psalm 83. I know these things have been looming for a long time... but its gonna happen soon. Maybe now!

Susie said...

I think it is awesome tho... that israel has named this operation... the pillar of defence....

Jan said...

One day had discussed heaven and hell and a minister corrected me to say that God doesn't send anyone to hell. I was just saying that there is a heaven and hell. God did not make us to be robots and gave us a choice on where we spend eternity too.

Thank you Lamb and Lion for your prayers and Susie and Billy too for your encouraging words.

Love to you

Billy said...

Jan, too!

(It took 7 times to post this...on one verification the numbers were too blurry to read, on another the numbers were 3/4 off the screen, etc. I know L&L doesn't control this but what a pain)

Billy said...

From a news article "Hamas’s armed wing warned that in assassinating Jabari, Israel “had opened the gates of hell on itself.”" bet...and Jabari went right in...

Susie said...

Jan.. ur welcome.. we all gotta stick together and pray for one another.

Billy.. no doubt u r right about jabari... i hope his son was too young to be accountable so two of em didnt go there.... this is a whole new level of trouble over there... i think...

Jan said...

It was stated somewhere that Israel would wait until the elections here before any attacks, etc. we need to back Israel up for sure. Susie, yes we do need to continue to pray for all.

God has a plan and His plan is gonna work.

Susie said...

Jan... ur so right! Praise God his plan will prevail!! However... i do NOT believe america will back up israel. I pray that every christian is praying diligently for the peace of Jerusalem! :):):)

Billy said...


You're so right as we know peace in Jerusalem means Jesus reigning on Earth!

David London said...

Dr. Reagan said : "Darwin lived before we had the microscope so he didn't know those things."

Actually, Antony van Leeuwenhoek made over 500 microscopes, and n 1673, Leeuwenhoek began writing letters to the newly-formed Royal Society of London, describing what he had seen with his microscopes.

The microscope went through 150 years of improvements by the time Darwin was a student.

If you are going to argue against Darwin, at least get your facts straight.

Billy said...

David London,

Oh, what a brilliant observation! It is just so relevant to the point of the article. Wow, am I impressed. You've changed my mind! LOL

In reality you're comparing a primitive "microscope" to the modern day electron microscope. You're comparing today's scientific knowledge to today's. Dr. Reagan's point stands firm.

I suppose now you'll tell us they had missiles with warheads on them back then too. Only they called them flaming throwing sticks.


Bily said...

Sentence correction:

" You're comparing today's scientific knowledge to today's."

should read:

You're comparing today's scientific knowledge to 339 year old scientific knowledge.

Basically, your point is "neener neener neeeeeeeener" and "gotcha" in nature but is insignificant and adds NOTHING to the conversation.

Nathan Jones said...

Excellent point, David. Since Darwin knew about single-celled organisms and Dr. Reagan's referenced in various articles Darwin's comments on single celled organisms being merely a "homogeneous globule of protoplasm," clearly Dr. Reagan was referring to the electron microscope. Darwin couldn't see inside a cell to witness all those complex processes going on in just one single "simple" cell.

Just think what Darwin would have said if he knew about DNA, the computer coding inside.

Susie said...

I think darwin would have said... praise God in heaven our blessed creator!!!!!! How could i have been soooo arrogant? ???? I think i will get down on my knees now and proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord!!! Amen!!!
LOL hee hee

Joe said...

When you don't deal in a debate format (doesn't need to be a debate event in person, with the internet you can just shoot e-mails back and forth and publish the conversation, or make videos and post them on video websites), you get terrible arguments (namely straw-man arguments) attempting to refute the asserted claim. Also, when in such a secluded/segregated area, this sort of thing just becomes an unintellectual "circle jerk", which is what this post seemed like.

While this post seems better than others due to addressing more points/issues, they don't cover the points well at all or represent the views that many intellectual non-Christians, or even other Christians (such as non-creationist Christians, which for the record outnumber creationists by a large margin).

First of all, if humans have their own free will which a god cannot affect, the god would not be omnipotent or omniscient. Why worship something that not only allowed a human (or particularly the supposedly original human) to do something he commanded against which gives them a great punishment, but also punishes them (bans them from the garden and leaves no trace of it's existence to humans) in addition for it as if the punishment they already received wasn't already enough?

Aside from that, there's some big fat claims being made by saying that "he's given every one[sp] of us a way out of the punishment for our sins. Every one of us have a way out through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who went to the cross to pay the price for me and for you and for everyone else". It seems to be claiming that nothing bad happens to someone who doesn't sin and/or believes in Jesus Christ as their savior (and/or whatever else is necessary). That's such an boldly absurd claim that's evidently false unless you use the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, or say that no one can attain such situations (in which case it's irrelevant/wrong that a person can be exempt from bad events). There's no measurable indication that Christianity or Christians or humanity as a whole are favored by any sort of supreme entity. Churches get destroyed by natural disasters or go bankrupt, young and old Christians alike get killed/stricken by natural disasters, diseases, and other events, and non-Christians who do wicked deeds sometimes never get seriously punished for their actions (except supposedly in an afterlife but that's unproven and completely unsubstantiated), at least for a long time (eventually everyone dies).

This ends part 1

Joe said...

He said that the God of the Old Testament couldn't be the God of the New Testament" Dawkins isn't saying that as far as I know, that's a complete misinterpretation (or at least not addressing any of his main points even if he has made that claim before, it's just side-stepping the question), in fact the fact that it is the same god just shows how malevolent the god Christians believe in actually is. I don't know if I need to remind some people that the god of the bible says things like kill the unbelievers and/or blasphemers (including followers of other religions, even if they are your sibling, spouse, or child), kill/beat the unobeying child, kill adulterers, kill sorcerers (because they obviously exist, right?), kill [acting] homosexuals, kill fortunetellers/mediums, kill anyone who strikes their parent, kill people who disobey priests, kill/shun anyone who doesn't follow the sabbath, etc.

Before you claim that those are no longer applicable laws, be sure to indicate why any of the 10 commandments (or other laws, or other quotations from the old testament) should still apply but not those previously mentioned, and how Jesus saying "do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them" is somehow invalid or does not apply. I think it may also be important to show how it doesn't apply to non-Christians as well, since many arguments just absolve Christians of the wrongness&punishment of their actions, but not others.

The next several paragraphs of the post go on about either off-topic/irrelevant information, or a straw-man argument, since it's neither an argument against Christianity, nor something that I've seen anyone say, to say that Jesus was a "wuss"; no one cares.

"The Bible says God definitely is going to deal with sin"; I presume only in the afterlife? He sure hasn't done much in the living world about it. In fact, if he has the power to punish people (such as the punishments I previously mentioned), why isn't he the one to kill people when they disobey his law? Why does he command others to do the dirty work for him? Doesn't seem very smart to leave justice in the hands of an imperfect, evil, population; Doesn't seem very powerful if he can't do it himself, either.

If you want to claim that prophecy is an important pillar to having faith in Christianity/the-bible, be sure to include the best situations which you consider prophecy, and how they were fulfilled; it only makes sense to do-so in my opinion.

The concept and science of evolution is not something based on one man, not at all; the fact that one of the earlier people to perform scientific research on this subject had limited resources has no bearing on current scientific understanding. Anything that Charles Darwin believed or said is not necessarily anything that any scientist or believer in evolution would agree with, and there's nothing wrong or incongruent about that either. Like most humans, mistakes are made and people can be wrong, I'm sure the same thing would have happened with him on some of what he said, but that doesn't make the overlying concept or belief wrong.

That whole saying of "evolution is just a theory" is so ridiculous. Why do people still use that claim, when it's clearly been shot down many times? Have you not heard the simple rebuttal to that before or something? Lots of important things that are universally accepted as fact are theories; one example of such is gravity. Theory does not mean "hypothesis" or "guess" in the domain of science; it's an explanation of an entire set of laws and observations which is firmly established from the scientific method.

This ends part 2

Joe said...

The watch—watchmaker argument is terribly old and has been addressed many times by all sorts of people and is not a solid argument, but rather an argument from ignorance (logical fallacy). By the assumptive "logic" that the watch—watchmaker argument uses, one could also say that everything we've ever seen was built from something else; not anything was ever made from nothing. By that logic god creating things from nothing is illogical just as well (if not more so).
I could post all sorts of links debunking the watch argument, but I assume one is competent enough to perform a proper Google search, such as "watchmaker analogy" or "argument from design".
One final word on that subject: even if a god was proven by some sort of argument like this, it does not indicate whatsoever which of the thousands of gods is/are the one(s) that was the creator.

"We have empirical proof that there is a God who had interaction with men and who sent His Son."
What is the proof? If there was proof of a Jesus existing, that's not proof that the Jesus had supernatural powers. If there was proof that Jesus had supernatural powers, that's not proof that he's the son of a god (and the god at the same time, however that is supposed to work). If there was proof that Jesus was the son of a god, it doesn't mean that the words in the bible that he supposedly said is what he actually said. If the words in the bible that he supposedly said were words he actually said, there's still no proof that all the other things in the bible are true either, such as the great flood or the creation account. There's just hole after hole that one needs to get past, which is not possible without making ignorant assumptions and having faith. That's what it all boils down to, and I've heard religious leaders/followers mention it all the time: It's all about faith. While that may well be the case, faith is not substantiated by science, fact, or evidence; faith is just a belief in something regardless of evidence for or against it. And when it all comes down to things, there's no good reason to believe something on faith, particularly when there's rational reasoning that goes against it.

Thanks for reading (to those who are not that ignorant and actually did read it).

Susie said...

Joe, the only point that u made i can honestly agree with is that it all comes down to faith . That is very true. And faith (bible says) is required for the Lord to reveal himself to a person in their heart. He doesnt prove himself real thru the revelation of his love to people who dont want to know him. But when one puts their faith in the gospel message, he comes into their heart by way of his Holy Spirit and thus begins the best relationship ever.;) i dont think any christian (that i know of anyway) ever claims that we r exempt from troubles in this world. That would be incorrect seeing how the Lord assures us that we WILL have troubles in this world .. faith is hard to explain especially when ur trying to explain it to a non believer. But Joe, if u ever want to find out what its like toknow God.... ask him to come into ur heart, accept his forgiveness of sin, and enjoy the promise of eternal life with Him. Thats my prayer for u :)

Nathan Jones said...

Well answered, Susie!

Joe, Christianity rests on faith, but faith based on reason. We see the evidence before us concerning there being a Creator, we see the proofs of the validity of the Bible, we see the fulfillments of Bible prophecy, and we see the lives changed when given over to Jesus Christ. Then we realize we as humans can't possibly have all the possible proof we ever need, so we go by faith. As Jesus said in John 20:29, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." That's the kind of faith God is looking for.

Joe, you're answers to these things are in the Bible. Start with the Gospel of John. Susie, me and the others on this blog will be praying the Holy Spirit shows you the revelations He has shown us.

Anonymous said...

Joe, Search for scientific facts in the Bible. You will be amazed how many scientific facts were in the Bible before we even thought of such things..

This is a good one..
And I will be praying for you too.. because I feel the end is so close..

Anonymous said...

Joe, here is a good one too.. It tells about paths in the sea.. and the earth is not flat.. as people believed for a long time..

Billy said...


I'm always amazed at how much time and effort an atheist (or whatever you are) puts into arguing against the existance of God.

If there is no God, why are you so threatened by those that believe in nothing that you would post pages of rebuttal.


1. You are not going to change anyone's mind here.

2. You will one day, on bended knee, proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord. I only hope for the sake of your soul it is not on judgement day.

Susie said...

Nathan... i hope to see something from l&l soon on the current war in israel and how it coincides with bible prophecy!!

Nathan Jones said...

Susie, at this stage in Israel's battle with Hamas, it's too early to tell how it will go when it comes to Bible prophecy. It could expand greatly into a Psalm 83 War, or God could restrain it yet again, kicking the can down the road for a later date. Like you, we're just watching.

Susie said...

Nathan... oky doke! Just please be sure to lemme know if or when somethings in peticular makes an impression on u.... thanks nathan

Billy said...


I was thinking about what on my way to work this morning and actually thought the same thing Nathan posted.

Could fizzle, could explode.

This type of thing has happened in the Middle East so often now that there is no way of knowing.

However, we all know we are getting close the the "could explode" so it is really grabbing our attention. Becuase WE know it means Jesus is going to snatch us away soon if things start deteriorating.

Billy said...

To correct my confusing sentence:

I was thinking about what YOU SAID HERE on my way to work this morning and actually thought the same thing Nathan posted.

That's better :D

Susie said...

Hi billy... well .. yes i agree that things have been volitile over there forever... but as u said... its closer to rapture than ever... so its hard for me to NOT talk about what all is goin on over there. Its very exciting to me. An army rabbi quoted zech 12:10 to some of the young israeli forces preparing for possible deployment .. i cant help but wonder if this rabbi has any clue what he is REALLY saying with this scripture .. which goes...
And i will pour upon the house of david and upon the inhabitants of jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn...,

Billy said...

I heard a news commentator talking about perhaps some kind of peace deal coming out of this...perhaps for 10 years, which he says, would be unprecedented.

My mind immediately thought well, maybe not 10, but I see a 7 year peace deal on the way soon.

The antichrist is out there, now, almost about to pop onto the stage.

I agree this is exciting to watch play out but ONLY because of my hope in the Rapture and knowledge of prophecy. Without that I'd either be ignorant of what is coming like the majority of people or really scared about the future.

Susie said...

Billy ... yea ... i am so grateful too... that we know whats going on .. i pray for believers to wake up and study and seek the Lord so they too can live with joyful expectation rather than just fear of doom... ... i also read this mornin that 5 nations of the european union have made a suggestion or idea (not sure.. exactly) ... that there needs to be a more streamlined leadership. I was thinkin.. hmmm.. like 10 nations in charge? ?????

Joe said...

Looks like I ended up writing so much again I'll need to split my post into two.

For the record, I recommend you (or others) do not make assumptions about one's past beliefs. I was raised a Christian in a quite conservative yet rational and loving family (i.e. no Jehova's Witness or Westboro hatred/strictness going on). I went to various major national Christian youth group events and had really great times. I still do volunteer work for the church since I have friends and family there, but think that the following of a specific religion (over universal deism, or any religion at all for that fact) is baseless.
No traumatic event ended my belief/faith, no feeling of betrayal, no hatred, no anger, no upset-ness, I just gradually grew up out of a child fairytale while still attending church.
I've heard stories from many others, and while everyone's different, I've heard of people with similar experiences, including priests (which I'm sure would really suck).

I'm arguing against the following of a belief in a god, or particularly a specific god (such as of Christianity). I'm not saying that a god doesn't exist, I'm saying that regardless of whether a god exists or not, there seems to be no reasonable reason to believe in something that isn't affecting us (aside from the effect of people's belief, which does include charities, but also includes power grabs [Pope, Benny Hinn, Peter Popoff, etc.] and wars).
I'm putting this effort in, because I have thought about things quite a bit, care about humans quite a bit, and know that everyone has extra potential in them. I also am trying to give a reasonable counter-argument even if I won't be always returning to this page to make updated replies (this may be my last visit). It has nothing to do with being threatened really, but since you bring it up:

There are things that everyone ends up having to follow due to others' religious beliefs, and that infringes on my freedoms. People advocate anti-choice for abortions on primarily (not solely) religious grounds, as well as anti-choice for homosexual marriage.
There are all sorts of blue laws people have to follow whether they are Christian/other or not, and that should not be the case. While technically this is a beef with the government as opposed to the religion, it's the people who believe the religion (and the people who are elected) who elect the people who make up the government and establish laws.

My goal is not necessarily to change anyone's mind, but rather just express my own opinion, since I stumbled over here, as well as (as previously mentioned) to give the article a counter-balance to quite a self-promoting unproductive/pointless/arrogant article.

"You will one day, on bended knee, proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord. I only hope for the sake of your soul it is not on judgement day"
That sounds like a threat. I've heard this hundreds of times so it doesn't phase me at all, but I just thought I'd point it out in case you didn't realize it. I don't see why you would want to follow a god that condones threats or even threatens people himself (or through other people), or who'd be so harsh and irrational and barbaric and illogical as described in the bible. Your reasoning might be that he is beyond all logic an reason and that we should trust him anyway, but that is a terrible/ridiculous belief for numerous reasons which I don't want to get into. (will make my post twice as large as it already is)

Joe said...

I've seen lots of special Christian claims, but none of them follow proper axioms and mechanics of logic and science. Some easy things to do when you hear about a new fact that you want to share with your friends (whether religious or not), is to double-check the sources (in pertinence, veracity, quality, bias, etc.), and see if this issue has been brought up or addressed by anyone before. With the internet, it's not hard to find a differing point of view of a given subject. Looking at different views help to ascertain what may be correct/relevant, and what may be incorrect/twisted/irrelevant. I bet for any of the things you mentioned there (or at least for like 80-90% of them), there are at least 10 articles, videos, webpages, or other source of information addressing the claim/argument. I don't want to get into having to debunk every one of them myself; it's a waste of my time considering that you can research an explanation I'd give myself. I will say one thing regarding that specific page though: It's very reliant on specific interpretations, may cherry-pick situations (ignoring dissonant terminology or descriptions), may jump to conclusions improperly, and do other underhanded/twisted actions to present an argument that makes it SEEM like something is the case, when it isn't. What my last word will be is that I have seen all sorts of claims and counterclaims and rebuttals and such, and that in the end it's very clear from an unbiased standpoint (or at least to me) which side has more relevant points, more logical steps, and more reasonable conclusions. Posting links to more of them will not affect such reasoning in any way (although I'm always interested to hear what the latest person believes so that I know how to address it), since I've seen many of those ones before already.

@Nathan Jones
Did you even read the entirety (or at least the right spots) of my post? I could understand if you didn't, but don't go telling me to read the bible if you haven't even read my comments. If you did read my comments I thought it would have been somewhat clear that I did read the bible, but on second thought it wasn't clear enough.

To be clear now: I've already read the bible, many times. There's no point in telling me to read John; John's also not the whole bible. One part can be good or better than others, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ignore the other parts. I presume that most of you would not chose to live in a society where almost everything is perfect, except that all people of x race are to be shot to death. Sure the society is nice, but there's a major flaw with it. The bible's the same way, except there's probably more flaws and bad things than there are even useful/good things to get out of it.

Susie said...

Joe, i wasnt making any assumptions about ur past. I discerned the fact that u do not know the Lord. Regardless of how many years u sat in a pew... or how u were raised... or how many times u say u read the bible.... God reveals himself to those with a desire to know him. I was raised in church.. good family... all that too. I never really was too sure about the whole thing until... i decided one day after much thought to ask the Lord to forgive my sins... and show himself to me. And praise God, he did.
Happy thanksgiving Joe.

Jan said...

Joe, our minds are made up in who we trust and believe in. We read your posts and are praying for you. Maybe you've been hurt and you're crying out for answers and seeking to have a relationship with the Lord. Nathan, Susie and Billy have given you answers in a few lines that can and will make a major impact in your life through Jesus Christ

Anonymous said...

It’s an odd thing to me that you do not believe in the God of the Bible (your choice) and yet you are so vocal, even evangelical, in your preaching to us of His non-existence. Why do you bother to take up so much time trying to prove that God does not exist, as there must be incalculable possibilities of what doesn’t exist! I find it very hard to think of what doesn’t exist, where would I begin? Apparently one needs to have a truth in the first place so that it can be declared to be non-existent? (Proving something does not exist is much harder than proving it does)

I think you must feel lonely, which suggests to me that you are desperate to share with us about your own faith in order to convert us to it and add to your numbers!

May God open the eyes of your underatanding before the last page is closed. :)

Joe said...

A) I did not have any major problems in my life, especially not related to religion or god. I thought I made that clear in my previous post. It's ridiculous that you think someone has to be a broken wreck to not believe all these supernatural, unscientific, illogical claims (at least that's what I'm inferring).

B) Again you're bringing something up I addressed in my previous post. You all may very well have made up your minds (although you can't speak for anyone but yourself, sorry that's just the way life works), but that has nothing to do with why I'm posting. Like I already explained, I was posting to give a balanced viewpoint against the straw-man and other weak arguments written in the article.

C) They gave replies, but they didn't actually answer any question that I asked, nor did they address any of the other arguments/assertions that I made. Essentially they all ignored the entirety of my posts. At the moment I have no reason to believe that anyone who's replied has actually read my entire post(s) (not to say they didn't).

Did you read my last post(s)? I specifically said I am not claiming that a god does not exist. I'll repeat that in case you're not reading my posts properly: I am not claiming that a god does not exist. By dictionary definitions, the words Preaching and Evangelical are very inappropriate words to use to describe my comments. I'm just discussing a rational thought process and addressing problems that I see. Instead of you actually addressing the issues I bring up or answering my questions, you just seem to attempt to make personal attacks on me. It is it's not productive, rational, or friendly to behave that way.

"there must be incalculable possibilities of what doesn’t exist! I find it very hard to think of what doesn’t exist" your argument is very self-defeating. Have you heard of something called the burden of proof? Perhaps the word "onus"? The onus is on the person making a claim that something exists; they have the burden of proving what they are saying is true. If they cannot prove what they say is true, then it shouldn't be believed by anyone to be true.
There's a lot of information on the internet about this sort of thing and you can research it yourself if you like. I'll repeat it one more time: I am not making the claim that god does not exist; I am just not buying what some people are selling when they say he does exist (especially that he is the only true god, that he had a human son who is himself, that he created the universe in the last 10000 years, that he is both omnipotent and omniscient, that he is worthy of worship, that he gave humans specific laws to follow, that all other holy texts are completely wrong and evil, etc.).

Anonymous said...

Hey ho, so your belief system is one based on uncertainty - you believe a god may exist but that 'he' (thats pretty definite) is NOT the one in the Bible. That too is a definite statement in support of your faith. Yes faith, cos just like the Christian, you haven’t seen ‘him’ either. Unlike the Christian who hasn’t seen the God of our faith, it is built on the many eyewitness accounts written in history books and the Bible is also a record of history. That Joe, is my burden of my proof which is the most documented item in all the world history. Some even etched on stone. What is the burden of your proof for claiming God isn’t the one in the Bible?

Most certainly Joe, you are an Evangelist to your faith, the definition is of one who speaks out, or heralds the news of their faith. Yes, you are a Preacher of your faith, you are giving us a talk on your faith. You are expounding the fact that it can give no one any hope for life now, or the hereafter (if it exists for you) If you want some converts, you had better work on a more positive message. The message in the Bible is full of hope to them that believe – not so good for them that don’t!

Susie said...

Joe... u have done ur best to look all intelligent and reasonable... but my response doesnt change. Without faith... u will never know God. If u never decide to believe simply cuz u just plain want to... u will never know God. SO! U can keep repeating ur arguements ... but until you make a heart decision... GOD will NOT reveal himself to you. Period.
.... the Lord uses the simplicity of his love to confound "the wise"......
,....... its a heart issue .... joe.... just think about it ... talk to ur creator and be nice and respectful and he will speak to ur heart. But pride and arrogance will not hear from Him..... that is until he judges the earth which will be soon.