Wednesday, July 31, 2013

The Existence of God: The Fish Pond

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Can another reality exist alongside our own and we not realize it?

We asked this question on our television show Christ in Prophecy of Carl Gallups, senior pastor of Hickory Hammock Baptist Church in Milton, Florida, and the author of the best-selling apologetics book, The Magic Man in the Sky. He is also the founder of the world famous PPSIMMONS YouTube channel and prominent Freedom Friday radio talk show host.

Pastor Carl Gallups


The Fish Pond

Nathan Jones: Carl, in your very insightful book The Magic Man in the Sky, your wrote something that was so deep. You talked about two realities — a physical and a spiritual reality, both existing side-by-side, but one not seeing the other. Atheist always say there can't be a spiritual realm because we would know it and we'd see it. How do you refute their claim with your argument on side-by-side realities?

Carl Gallups: That is a very important concept and principle for people to grasp, simply because you can't see something or feel something or subjectively measure something, that doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist. What it does mean is that we should examine it to the depth of any reasonable means possible.

True, Atheists will often make the argument like you just said, "Because we can't see it, touch it, measure it, feel it, you just then can't talk to God and stand on a hill and yell, 'Strike me dead if you're there,' because nothing happens, so therefore God doesn't exist."

The illustration that I use in my book, well one of the illustrations, to counter their claim is what I call the Fish Pond Story.

Under the surface of a fish pond that is say located in the middle of a 5,000 acre ranch, say right in the middle, and the fish pond is 10 acres wide; under the surface is an entire universe of reality. Everything that lives under the surface of that pond, that is their reality. Those creatures are bound to that watery existence. Beyond the surface of that pond is what you and I know is our universe of reality, not only the world that we live in, but the solar system and the universe beyond.

The fish living in that pond have no concept, they have not a clue, of the magnificence of what lies just beyond the surface of that water. They have no concept of the intricacies of your human life, much less the other seven billion people that live on the planet. They've never seen a city or a skyscraper or an airplane or a train. Sure, every now and then they might see a shadowy existence of something that comes to the edge of the pond. Remember that the Scripture talks about how we see through a glass darkly. But, we do get glimpses of glory now and then, if you will. God gives us glimpses of His glory. But, until we come out of our "fish pond" and enter into the realm of what's really real, see, we don't have a clue as to what it's like to truly be in the presence of God anymore then a fish has a clue. If a fish could somehow become a man and step outside the pond and look around, it'd say, "Oh, wow, I had no idea!"

The existence that lives outside of the fish pond existed all along. It has always been all around the pond, in physical flesh and blood reality. A fish is flesh and blood, though a different kind of flesh, but its flesh and blood and it's physical. We're physical. We're flesh and blood. And yet, the two physical realities exist side-by-side, and one is totally unaware of the other. In fact, not only are the fish unaware, but they cannot enter into our reality and exist in it.

I believe that's an illustration of the deep spiritual truth that Jesus was trying to reveal to us, that when you pass from this existence, you're not just some little fluff of spirit going to float on a cloud playing a harp forever. You enter into a physical reality. I am going to use the word "physical," but it is glorified. It's like when Jesus came out of the tomb. He was physical, but He was glorified. When you die you leave the "fish pond" and you enter into reality, in fact it is the ultimate reality.

To the presence of God, we are just living in a fish pond. We're surrounded by our limitations. We are surrounded by the surface. We are in a "watery" existence, but we don't even know it. But, when we leave this existence, we are like a fish that has become a man. We look and discover there's an endless array and vastness to the universe. It's like God saying, "This reality is mine, but now it's also yours because of your faith in my Son Jesus Christ." We enter from one reality into another reality, if you will, one dimension of reality into another dimension of reality. In the same way the fish pond exists in its own dimension and it's real, all around it is yet another dimension and it's real, too, but it's the ultimate reality.


In the fourth segment of our interview with Pastor Carl Gallups concerning the existence of God, he'll use examples of other realities which coexist with our own to help prove that God exists.

Tuesday, July 30, 2013

The Existence of God: The Three Worldviews

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Which of the three worldviews do you see the world through?

We asked this question on our television show Christ in Prophecy of Carl Gallups, senior pastor of Hickory Hammock Baptist Church in Milton, Florida, and the author of the best-selling apologetics book, The Magic Man in the Sky. He is also the founder of the world famous PPSIMMONS YouTube channel and prominent Freedom Friday radio talk show host.

Pastor Carl Gallups


Secular Worldview

Dr. Reagan: Carl Gallups is the author of a fascinating book called The Magic Man in the Sky. Carl, you began your book by contrasting the secular worldview with the biblical worldview. Tell us how one would define the secular worldview?

Carl Gallups: Well, thank you, Dave, that is a great question. As you know, worldviews are extremely important. A worldview is just the way that you filter the information of life. We make all of our decisions about life based on our worldviews. We use worldviews to decide who we are going to marry, what kind of job we are going to have, how we are going to live, and so forth.

The secular worldview is totally man-centered. There is no room for God or even an Intelligent Designer. There is no room for the Creation. It's all about me, so to speak. The secular worldview focuses on Man. That's the worldview of the Atheist, for example. It's the worldview of the Agnostic, though most Agnostics actually live as Atheists, even if they call themselves Agnostics. This is the worldview of the one who holds to the evolutionary proposition as the answer to life's origins.

Dr. Reagan: I would say it is the worldview of the majority of people in the United States today, whether they know it or not.

Carl Gallups: Some people would disagree with you and declare, "I don't have that kind of worldview." But, they live as they really do have a secular worldview. So, yes, I would agree with you there.


Biblical Worldview

Nathan Jones: Carl, since you are telling us about what the secular worldview believes, and you will talk about a religious worldview, but next let's talk about having a biblical worldview. Most people think they have a biblical worldview, but they really have a secularist's or religious worldview. Maybe you could help people discern if they have the biblical worldview by telling us what having one means.

Carl Gallups: I've been in the ministry a long time, and the best illustration of this I've found to tell folks is to say, "I have been in the ministry a long time, and I've held scores and scores of funerals." I say this a little tongue-in-cheek, but it illustrates this, so I say, "In all my years in ministry, I've never done the funeral of a lost person." People look at me shocked and they ask, "What?!" What I mean is this, "I can preach from the pulpit that the Bible is the Word of God, and Jesus is Lord, and that there is only one way of salvation. Salvation is by God's grace." By the way, that's the biblical worldview, that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, final Word of God. Jesus is Lord and Savior. He is God with us. He is the only way to salvation. Salvation is by God's grace alone. So, I preach that and hear "amen, amen, amen."

But then, somebody dies like a loved one, a relative, or a friend. At the funeral, someone will say to me from time to time something like, "Pastor, you know this guy didn't believe in all that Jesus stuff. And, he very seldom came to church, but I know he is a good person, so I know he's in Heaven." I've never had anybody come to me and say, "You know what? He was lost, Preacher."

Nathan Jones: That is both funny and sad at the same time.

Carl Gallups: Well, it is.


Religious Worldview

Carl Gallups: That illustration that I use to show the difference between people who say they have a biblical worldview, when life really comes down to the bottom line, they think from a religious worldview. Of course, that third worldview that I just described is the heresy of universalism with its belief that "all dogs eventually go to Heaven," regardless. It believes, "Amen, Jesus is the way, Jesus is the way! But, not for my friend, just because he was a good person, that's all he needed.

Nathan Jones: Universalism would then be the religious worldview which is the third view listed in your book?

Carl Gallups: Concerning the third worldview, I try to make the distinction between a distinctly contextual, biblical worldview as just opposed to all of the other religiosity in the world, because there are many religious views on life.

Nathan Jones: Religion is merely Man's search for God.

Carl Gallups: Yes, and even Satan is a religious being. Let's deal with that fact just a little bit, that Satan is the inventor of religions.

A biblical worldview contains a relationship with our Creator, a relationship that comes through a born again experience in our relationship with Jesus Christ. Everything else is just religion. For example, there are people who would claim, "I'm not a secularist. I believe there is God or gods. I believe there is a Creator. I believe there's an intelligence." And then, they get off into all this esoteric spiritual stuff. That's the religious worldview, and billions of people live by a religious worldview.

Dr. Reagan: What's so disturbing to me is that we have organizations in America today that specialize in taking religious polls, and these polls are showing that people who claim to be evangelicals will answer at 51% or 52% saying there are different roads to God, and that Jesus sinned, and other totally unbiblical claims like that. It's like they know nothing about the Bible, and so they as a result do not have a biblical worldview.

Carl Gallups: That's right. You nailed it, Dave.

Dr. Reagan: What's the problem here then?

Carl Gallups: Well, the biggest problem is our sin nature and our refusal to deal with the truth, which is the revelation found in God's Word. Some of the problem comes from pulpits and the watered down preaching of the Word.

Dr. Reagan: I was going to say there's a famine of the Word today. People are not being taught the Word and they are not being taught the fundamentals of the faith in their churches.

Carl Gallups: Right. And then some of the problem comes from real dynamic, contextual, biblical preaching from the pulpit, but the people sitting in the pews are just not processing it because they don't want to deal with a change to their lives. They'll pick and choose what they want to believe and hear. It's human nature. It's just something that we as pastors have to deal with.

Dr. Reagan: There is a fellow who takes a poll of entering freshmen every year at Wheaton College, which is one of the foremost evangelical colleges in America. All of these new students coming there are coming from families where they have grown up in church. And yet, every year this poll has shown the new students have less and less knowledge of the Bible. They're not being asked difficult questions, either. The questions are like, "Name one of the four Gospels." "Name two of the Apostles." And, you know what? They just can't name them. You've got to wonder just what are they doing in their high school youth programs. Just hayrides? Watching movies? Eating pizza?

Carl Gallups: Yes, yes and yes.

Nathan Jones: But, not at Carl's church.

Carl Gallups: No, no, no! Well, I've just dealt with this very thing recently. I don't want to be too detailed here, but recently I've just been very disappointed in dealing with a group of people putting together this big outreach in our youth ministry and listening to them talk about their Bible studies they are planning to have with the youth. We've had to stop and correct them and say, "That's not a Bible study. That's not really a study of God's Word."

People as you just nailed it so perfectly a minute ago, well they've gotten off base. They're off track. The Word of God is there, but it's ignored, so there's a famine for truth and knowledge. So, yes, you are right that there are people who say, "I come from a biblical worldview." Okay, but what does that really mean to them? Honestly, they can't tell you. Or, they live as though they believe in the secular worldview.


Absolute Morality

Dr. Reagan: The world today says there is no such thing as absolute truth, which in itself is an absolute statement.

Carl Gallups: It is, though are you absolutely certain? Yes, well that's a classic argument when somebody says to me, "I don't believe in absolute truth." I reply, "Really? Are you absolutely certain?" And then, you've got them.

Dr. Reagan: There is a real rejection of absolute truth today.

Carl Gallups: There has to be if you're going to live within a secular worldview.

Dr. Reagan: Yes, everything's relative. You have your truth. I have my truth.

Carl Gallups: That's right. That way, there's no eternal consequences. There's no accountability.

Dr. Reagan: The secular worldview believes we must be tolerant toward each other.

Carl Gallups: Oh, yes, except they can't be tolerant of those of us with a biblical faith and worldview.

The argument about absolute morality, see that's what it all comes down to with Evolution. Evolution is not about Science. It's about getting rid of God so that I can live like I want to live. And so, when a person says there's no such thing as absolute morality, here's my illustration: I say to them, "Really? Tell me, where can I go in the world tonight, break into a man's house, kill his children, rape his wife, burn his house down, steal everything he's got, and walk out? Then the man looks at me and says, 'You know, it's okay for you to do that.'" You would obviously reply, "There's no such place!" I'd say, "Right, and you know why? Because that is absolute morality. To do those horrible things are absolutely wrong in absolutely every place in the entire world. It always has been, and it always will be. Absolute morality does exist. Now, explain to me how Evolution came up with that."


In the third segment of our interview with Pastor Carl Gallups concerning the existence of God, he'll use the Fish Pond Story to help us understand how God can exist and we not perceive it too well.

Monday, July 29, 2013

The Existence of God: The Straw Man Argument

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Is God a magic man in the sky?

We asked this question on our television show Christ in Prophecy of Carl Gallups, senior pastor of Hickory Hammock Baptist Church in Milton, Florida, and the author of the best-selling apologetics book, The Magic Man in the Sky. He is also the founder of the world famous PPSIMMONS YouTube channel and prominent Freedom Friday radio talk show host.

Pastor Carl Gallups


The Straw Man

Dr. Reagan: Tell us, what does the title of your newest book, The Magic Man in the Sky, mean? Where in the world did that come from?

Carl Gallups: You're not the first person to ask me that question. The title was meant to be thought provoking, provocative even, if you will. The Skeptics and Atheists, they know exactly what the title means, because it is an argument they often use. Also, a lot of Christians know what the title means because they have heard it used against them.

Dr. Reagan: So, Atheists just use this title flippantly when they reference God?

Carl Gallups: Yes, and their argument basically goes like this: "Why should I believe in some magic man in the sky like you do, when I can believe in settled scientific fact?" Or, stated another way, "I would rather believe in settled scientific fact than some magic man in the sky."

I've spent a lot of time in Internet ministry and I've spent years debating Skeptics, and Atheists, and Agnostics. This argument kept coming up again and again with them. Finally, I realized I needed to address that somehow in a world reaching venue. And so, the Lord put this idea of a book on my heart, but my book deals with a whole lot more than just this argument.

Dr. Reagan: But, you don't like that title, do you?

Carl Gallups: I don't like the title, no, because the words "the magic man in the sky" as a whole argument is a misnomer. It is a biblical misunderstanding. Neither the Bible nor the Christian declares that God is magic or that He uses magic. Neither the Bible nor the Christian who knows the Bible in context would declare that God is merely a man. We know that God put on flesh through His Son Jesus Christ and presented Himself as a man, as "God with us." We understand that concept. But, God is not just a bigger form of a man floating around out there in space somewhere. He's also not performing magic, And, certainly, He doesn't live in the sky.

When a Skeptic uses it, or an Atheist uses it, or an Agnostic, they are conjuring up this image, but this is a straw man argument. They are conjuring up this image of some grandfatherly looking fellow in a rocking chair with a magic wand floating around in the clouds. Once you develop that caricature in someone's mind, especially a Christian who is not expecting that attack, it can debilitate a Christian.

Listen to the two straw men. First, "I'd rather believe in settled scientific fact..." Well, that's an oxymoron. I don't know if there's anything settled in Science. Second, "...than a magic man in the sky." That's another complete misnomer.

So, no, I don't like the title. I like the title as a book, and God has used it, but the argument it refutes is completely unbiblical.


The Ministry Man

Nathan Jones: Ministry seems to attract former policemen. I hear you were a policeman, and that made me interested in your background and how you got into ministry from the police. Especially Internet ministry interests me as Web Minister, so I'd like to hear a little about what you do in that area.

Carl Gallups: I started young as Florida's first 18 year old correctional officer with the Florida Department of Corrections, which is the state prison system. Two years later, at the age of 20, I was Jefferson County, Florida's first 20 year old deputy sheriff. This was back in the days when years ago everything used to be measured as an adult from 21 and over. But, they had just changed the law about the time I turned 18.

Nathan Jones: So, you could arrest people, but you couldn't drink.

Carl Gallups: Well, that's right! You could go to war, but you couldn't drink, yes. So, they'd changed the law and I was just turning 18 at the time, and I was very much fascinated by the law enforcement field as a career. Anyway, I applied, (it's a long story), and I became Florida's first 18 year old correctional officer then Jefferson's County first 20 year old deputy sheriff and sworn-in patrol officer.

I worked for them for several years, and then I worked for Leon County, which is the capital of Florida. I ending up spending 10 years in law enforcement, with six or seven years as a sworn criminal patrol officer, and then a few years doing some of my own criminal investigations.

Nathan Jones: But, your heart was in ministry during all of that time?

Carl Gallups: Not all of that time, no. Sure, I was a Christian. I was saved at the age of 16, so I was a Christian during that time and I later married.

In my late 20's, God really began to impress upon my heart a call to full-time ministry. Now, I've got to tell you, I'm a little bit ashamed of this part of my testimony. Do you know that it is entirely possible to be in love with the Lord, be doing the work of the Lord like I was serving in church and teaching Sunday school, and yet still be running from the Lord? I think of a man named Jonah. In other words, I was happy in law enforcement, and I was doing well as I was advancing in my career. My college education was in criminal justice. I graduated from Florida State in Criminology. Everything was geared towards that, but then God messed up my life, tongue-in-cheek, by interfering with my happiness and calling me into full-time ministry. The bottom line is that I ran from that calling for a couple of years. I'm ashamed of that now because God has so blessed my ministry and my life. I finally though surrendered fully to God's calling on my life and then began my journey with the Lord in full-time ministry.

As I went through all of that transition, people always asked me, "How did you go from being a cop to a preacher?" The story is kind of complex. I didn't just get up one day and say, "You know what? I'm tired of being a cop. I think I want to be a preacher." No, no, no! I loved being in law enforcement. I did not want to be a preacher.

Nathan Jones: We've had Don McGee and Jeff Seif on "Christ in Prophecy," and they were also policemen who went into ministry.

Carl Gallups: So, they have similar testimonies?

Nathan Jones: Similar, yes. They also ran from the Lord for a bit, but they finally took to full-time ministry.

So, you are involved in Internet ministry on top of pastoring? You are on the radio as well?

Carl Gallups: My ministry is multifaceted. First and foremost, I am the Senior Pastor at Hickory Hammock Baptist Church, a Baptist church in northwest Florida. I've been there 26 or 27 years now. Out of that has grown a very large radio ministry. I broadcast several programs that deal with current issues from a biblical viewpoint. I've got several programs. One is strictly biblical called "Ask the Preacher." But, another one that I have is called "Freedom Friday with Carl Gallups."

Dr. Reagan: Are any of those programs available on the Internet?

Carl Gallups: Yes, they are. They can all be accessed by going to carlgallups.com. Just go to the top right-hand corner where it says "Listen Live" and there you'll find all the information about me and my ministry and where you can listen to radio and podcast programs.


In the second segment of our interview with Pastor Carl Gallups concerning the existence of God, he'll explain the differences between a secular, biblical and religious worldviews.

Friday, July 26, 2013

Noah Hutchings on Terminal Apostasies

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What are Terminal Apostasies and what do they mean to a nation?

We asked this question on our television show Christ in Prophecy of Dr. Noah Hutchings, considered "The Dean" of American Bible prophecy experts. He is the director of a Bible prophecy ministry in Oklahoma City called Southwest Radio Ministries, the author of over 100 books, and at 90 years old continues to serve the Lord in his decades long call to proclaim the Gospel.

Noah Hutchings


Terminal Apostasies

Dr. Reagan: Your third section has to do with terminal apostasies. What in the world are those all about?

Dr. Hutchings: You can read in Scriptures in certain places where a nation or a people has gone so far into immorality that it says God gives them up to a reprobate mind, or turned His face from them like He did with Israel. A nation or people can only go so far before God turns His face from a people and brings judgment upon them nationally.

In that third section I deal with apostasies that we are performing here in the United States. For example, we are teaching children in school that the earth has evolved, and for that matter everything's evolved, even if that disputes the Scriptures that God is the Creator.

Dr. Reagan: We're not even allowed to give an alternative viewpoint in the classrooms.

Dr. Hutchings: Yes, and Jesus said if we were to do this to one of these little children, if we were to harm one of these little children, well that's the worst thing that you can do. And yet, we are doing the very same thing by teaching them lies.

Then we have abortion. I was reading in the paper a special report where one organization has counted an amazing 333,000 abortions this past year.

Nathan Jones: Yes, that's Planned Parenthood, and they were very proud of those numbers as well. They were bragging about the fact they performed more abortions than ever before.

Dr. Hutchings: I think it should be called "Planned Non-Parenthood." And, there are so many other evil things we are doing here in this country that I think God will not tolerate.

Dr. Reagan: For example, there's our toleration and even promotion of homosexuality and same-sex marriage. That is one of the signs that Paul gives in the book of Romans for a nation that is about to collapse. Collapse begins when they tolerate that level of evil.

Dr. Hutchings: Over and over in the Scriptures, Sodom was given as an example that people were not supposed to do this kind of evil, or what happened to Sodom would happen to your nation. In Romans 1 Paul says that a nation that gives up natural sexual relations for unnatural relations is worthy of death.

Dr. Reagan: To summarize you book, we've got the secular signs of the end times. We've got the end times signs of Israel. Then we've got the four signs that you call "terminal apostasies" that really beg for the judgment of God to come upon a nation.

Dr. Hutchings: And, regretfully, we are involved in all four here in the United States.

Dr. Reagan: That reminds me of a sign that you mentioned in your book, and that's the sign of Noah — that in the end times society would become as immoral and as violent as it was in the days of Noah.

Dr. Hutchings: Yes, and it's easy enough to read in our newspapers, TV, radio and Internet. The earth is full of someone every day being killed. All that violence is happening.

Dr. Reagan: Violence and immorality can also be found in movies and TV. I flipped on the TV and saw advertisements for programs to come. I couldn't believe my eyes! One of them was called Scandal, in which every character is sleeping with whomever. Another one was called Revenge, in which the whole program is about somebody each week getting revenge. The third program, so help me, was called Californication, which is a play on the word California. Californication is the name of the program.

We are just wallowing in a moral cesspool in this country right now, and then we export that all over the world.

Dr. Hutchings: That's absolutely true through our radio programs and our TV programs. A lot of other countries have always looked to this nation as an example. But, what kind of example are we now setting?

Dr. Reagan: Not a very good one. I've often said the United States of America claims to be a Christian nation, but we are the moral polluter of planet earth.

Dr. Hutchings: Right, and we should be wonder how long will God will allow this.

Thursday, July 25, 2013

Noah Hutchings on Categories of End Times Signs

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How will people view the signs of the end times in the last days?

We asked this question on our television show Christ in Prophecy of Dr. Noah Hutchings, considered "The Dean" of American Bible prophecy experts. He is the director of a Bible prophecy ministry in Oklahoma City called Southwest Radio Ministries, the author of over 100 books, and at 90 years old continues to serve the Lord in his decades long call to proclaim the Gospel.

Noah Hutchings


Disinterest in Prophecy

Dr. Reagan: Noah you have just written a fabulous book called, 40 Irrefutable Signs of the Last Generation. It is great! I just love it. It's to the point. And, it has beautiful illustrations all the way throughout it. I compliment you on it. It's a great job. How did you come up with that title?

Dr. Hutchings: One reason I wrote on that subject and gave it that title is because people still don't relate to the Bible and prophecy. Sadly, many Christians don't. Peter wrote I believe in his second epistle that in the last days there will come scoffers asking, "Where is promise of His coming?" In spite of all the signs in the world that demonstrate that the end is near and that we live in the last generation, they would still ask, "Where's the promise of His coming?" So, I thought I'd write down some signs that no one could dispute; irrefutable signs of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

I asked myself how many of the end times signs I was going to deal with. I thought 40 would be a good number, because 40 is the number of probationary judgments. For example, in 40 days Nineveh was going to be destroyed. You trace a number of multiples of four in the Bible.

Dr. Reagan: One of the reasons when I saw this book advertised that I wanted to get it immediately was because several years ago I spoke at a Stealing the Mind Conference and they asked me to speak on the topic "50 Reasons Why we are Living in the End Times." Our ministry also puts out a video by that name. So, when I saw this 40 Irrefutable Signs, I thought I've got to get that and compare it to mine and see how it all came out.

But, you're so right when you talk about 2 Peter being fulfilled in our day and time with people scoffing. The thing that breaks my heart is that when I used to read that I thought that meant unbelievers. But, the Church today is full of people scoffing. There are even pastors who say, "Ah, that's a bunch of nonsense. I'm not going to talk about Bible prophecy." And yet, here we are with Jesus at the very gates of Heaven ready to return!

Dr. Hutchings: Brother Reagan, you raise an important point there. I don't think there is one church in a hundred now that ever mentions the subject of prophecy, or the times that we are living in, or that Jesus could come back in our lifetime. It's a subject that's neglected.


Secular Signs of the End Times

Dr. Reagan: Noah, you're book 40 Irrefutable Signs of the Last Generation is divided into three parts. Part one talks about 24 signs in the secular world. The second part talks about 12 signs related to Israel. And the third part is entitled, "Terminal Apostasies."

Let's talk about the first part to begin with. You talk about 24 signs in the secular world. What would be some of those? Now you don't have to name all 24, but just give us an example of a few.

Dr. Hutchings: There is the exponential increase of knowledge.

Nathan Jones: Yes, that's found in Daniel 12:4, right?

Dr. Hutchings: Daniel said that in the last days many would run to and fro and knowledge would be increased. Without the increase of knowledge, there wouldn't be a television set. There wouldn't be a radio. There would not be automobiles. There would not be airplanes. There would be no atomic weapons. So, that is one of the most important prophecies in the Bible there in the twelfth chapter of Daniel, that in the end of the age knowledge would increase and many would run to and fro.

Nathan Jones: I had the opportunity of talking about that very subject at our June 2013 conference. The Signs of Technology given in the Bible concerning the Last Days are proving that we are in those very last days due to the technology we have today. Today's technology make a number of the Tribulation judgments possible without needing a supernatural element.

Dr. Reagan: What would be another one of those secular signs?

Dr. Hutchings: Another sign is that there are wars and rumors of wars.

Jesus also said there would be pestilences in the last days. Don't we have all these medical advances for flu, and pneumonia, and all these other disease that we get? Well, that is true, but still we have the greatest plague the world has ever known — AIDS. I think that something like 40 million people have already died of AIDS. Now, if that had been small pox or some other disease, it would be something terrible reported all over the news, but the Media cover it up as a protected disease so that immorality will continue unabated. Disease is definitely one of the signs in the last days.


The End Times Sign of Israel

Dr. Reagan: Noah, in part 2 of your book your focus on 12 signs that relate to Israel. You must believe that Israel is a very, very important subject to have a whole section devoted just to it.

Dr. Hutchings: Oh, yes, actually I once wrote a book about 25 Messianic signs in Israel.

Nathan Jones: You have a number theme going on!

Dr. Hutchings: In my 40 Irrefutable Signs book, I deal with 12 of the major signs concerning Israel. A most important national sign is of course that Israel would be restored as a nation and the Jews would be back in their land.

There are so many signs concerning Israel. One is that the Jews would be scattered into all the world, but then come back from all nations into their homeland. The land would blossom and bud and fill the whole world with fruit. That is literally happening today.

Their Hebrew language has been revived, and the Jews are speaking Hebrew again. They sure haven't come to the knowledge of the truth yet, that they might be saved, but that will come later at the end of the Tribulation.

Nathan Jones: Dr. Hutchings, which of these signs did you enjoy writing about the most?

Dr. Hutchings: I think possibly the sign that Israel would be scattered into all the world and then at the end of the age before the Lord comes back they would return from all nations and Israel would again blossom. That's how we'd know the whole world for this age was through.


In the seventh and last part of this interview with Dr. Noah Hutchings on end time events, he'll end by talking about our nation's terminal apostasies.

Wednesday, July 24, 2013

Noah Hutchings on Christian Persecution

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Is America being "cleansed" of its Christianity?

We asked this question on our television show Christ in Prophecy of Dr. Noah Hutchings, considered "The Dean" of American Bible prophecy experts. He is the director of a Bible prophecy ministry in Oklahoma City called Southwest Radio Ministries, the author of over 100 books, and at 90 years old continues to serve the Lord in his decades long call to proclaim the Gospel.

Noah Hutchings


Cleansing of a Nation

Dr. Reagan: Noah, I understand you have written over 100 books, and are even now working on a new one?

Dr. Hutchings: Yes, I am. I think it is one that needs to be written. It is titled, The Christian Cleansing of America.

Dr. Reagan: What you mean by that really is how certain people are trying to cleanse America of Christianity?

Dr. Hutchings: Yes, right out of society, out of the schools, and out of government. You can't post a Scripture up in schools anymore. To show how much things have changed, I remember when I was going to school back in 1927, and we started our day with prayer and Bible reading.

Dr. Reagan: I was in school in the 40's and 50's, and when I graduated in 1956 from High School, we were praying at school every day. We were having devotionals every day. We were reading from the Bible every day. So, yes, a lot has changed, and it has changed very fast. Incidentally, I think you told me that you also wrote an article about the Christian cleansing of America, and that it had such an impact that one person called and ordered 30,000 copies of it, right?

Dr. Hutchings: That is right. I wrote a newsletter on the subject and somebody from Los Angeles called and ordered 30,000.

Dr. Reagan: Well then, I think you're going to have a good market for your book.

Dr. Hutchings: I think it is one that needs to be written and disseminated, because Christians are not fully understanding what's going on in society around us.

Dr. Reagan: I heard a speech by Jim Garlow, who is a Nazarene preacher in California, and he is a great church historian. He was talking about the history of the Church in the United States. He said we started out the first 230 years of this country, from the time of the Puritans, as the establishment of the United States. Christianity was the establishment. And then, over the years, we went from the establishment until he said in 2008 we became a persecuted minority. He says that's where true Bible believing Christians are today. We are a persecuted minority.

Dr. Hutchings: I think Dr. Franklin Graham recently stated that Christians are in danger in the coming decade from more and more persecution all across the world.

Dr. Reagan: All over the world indeed, and even in this country. The idea of wearing a cross around your neck, well you can't do that. You can't wear a cross on the job in many places here. You can't post the Ten Commandments in the classroom. What a Christian can't do just goes on and on and on. The limitations are becoming more and more severe as people are persecuted for their faith.

Dr. Hutchings: It does seem like every week something new comes up that infringes on the freedoms of Christians to practice their faith.

Dr. Reagan: I'm reminded of a court case that recently occurred in New Mexico. A lesbian couple went to a photographer and said that they wanted the photographer to photograph their wedding. The photographer replied that doing so would be opposed to their religious convictions. There were many other photographers they could have gone to, but they knew this photographer was going to refuse based on religious convictions, and because they wanted a court case. They did file a court case, and it went all the way up to the Supreme Court of New Mexico. The state's Supreme Court ruled that the photographer had violated the lesbian couple's constitutional rights. The photographer had to pay a large fine, even though it violated the photographer's religious beliefs.

Dr. Hutchings: That's an absolutely true story. One of the chapters in my book will be on the judicial system, including the judges, the Supreme Court, and the Federal justice system. Decision after decision they rule is anti-Christian.


In the sixth part of this interview with Dr. Noah Hutchings on end time events, he'll talk about various signs that prove we are in the last days of this age.

Tuesday, July 23, 2013

Noah Hutchings on End Times Signs

Nathan JonesWatch MP3 PDFBy

What would be the three greatest signs that prove we are living in the Last Days?

We asked this question on our television show Christ in Prophecy of Dr. Noah Hutchings, considered "The Dean" of American Bible prophecy experts. He is the director of a Bible prophecy ministry in Oklahoma City called Southwest Radio Ministries, the author of over 100 books, and at 90 years old continues to serve the Lord in his decades long call to proclaim the Gospel.

Noah Hutchings


Three Great Signs

Nathan Jones: Dr. Hutchings, do you believe we are living in the last days, and if so, why?

Dr. Hutchings: Certainly I do believe that these are the end times and that the Lord could come at any day.

Of course, Jesus said that the Gospel would be preached in all the world and then the end would come. For the first time in history, the Gospel is being preached in all the world through missionaries over radio, television, and the Internet. Therefore, I think there is a really no excuse for anyone in all the world to not know that Jesus Christ came to earth at His First Coming.

Dr. Reagan: In that regard, probably 20 years ago I bought a short wave radio. I had never had one. I turned that thing on and I was just astounded. As I turned that dial I heard the name of Jesus in every language of the world. The atmosphere of this planet is saturated with the name of Jesus.

Dr. Hutchings: Yes. One other item is that we are told in Scripture and by Jesus Himself that the Jews would be scattered into all of the world, and then at the end of the age in the last days, they would come back to inhabit Israel. I've been to Israel 54 times leading tours, and I have encountered Jews there who have returned from every nation in the world.

Dr. Reagan: The worldwide spread of the Gospel and the regathering of the Jews back to Israel are certainly two major signs that we are living in the season of the Lord's return.

Dr. Reagan: Noah, could you mention a third reason you think that we are living in the season of the Lord's return?

Dr. Hutchings: As you look at the book of Revelation and see what's coming upon the world in the last days, especially during the coming Tribulation period, I think the judgments mentioned there are now finally possible. The nations have in their arsenal nearly 15,000 deliverable nuclear weapons. That is something that we should be concerned about. For the first time, I think the judgments of Revelation could finally be possible.

Dr. Reagan: That's an interesting point you're making there, because that's exactly the same point that Hal Lindsey made in his famous book back in 1970, The Late Great Planet Earth. He basically said, "We have always looked at these judgments as being just something supernatural. God is just going to do all this stuff from Heaven." But, he added, "Actually, we are living for the first time in all of history where these things could occur naturally as the result of the sin of man. We could destroy each other with our very own nuclear weapons."

Dr. Hutchings: That is certainly true.

Nathan Jones: Concerning nuclear weapons, when God removes the Church, removes the Restrainer, it appears up to that time like God has been holding back nuclear weapons for decades. A lot of those Tribulation judgments, especially the ones that describe people getting boils and the sky rolling back like a scroll, they all sound nuclear in nature.


Fallacy of Date Setting

Dr. Reagan: People are always criticizing Bible prophecy teachers because they say they're sensationalists and all they do is set dates for the end of the world to happen. Then the dates come and pass with nothing happening, and it's hurtful to Christianity. Noah, you're not a date setter, are you?

Dr. Hutchings: I've never set a special date, no.

Dr. Reagan: It's one thing to say we're in the season of the Lord's return, another is to set a date, right?

Dr. Hutchings: Yes. I don't agree with date setting. I think all who have are sorry that they did.

Dr. Reagan: Yes, they are. Doing so brings a lot of reproach upon the name of Christ. It's amazing that Jesus said that no one knows the day of His return except the Father Himself. And yet, people always seem to think they know the day.

Dr. Hutchings: Yes. Jesus said that no one knows. He didn't even know at the time, and that only the Father knows.

Dr. Reagan: So when you say that we are living in the season of the Lord's return, you're not setting a date? You are just saying that all the signs point to the fact that we are living in the general season when the Lord will return?

Dr. Hutchings: That is absolutely true.


In the fifth part of this interview with Dr. Noah Hutchings on end time events, he'll talk about the growing levels of persecution against Christians.

Monday, July 22, 2013

Noah Hutchings on the Millennial Kingdom

Nathan JonesWatch MP3 PDFBy

How long will the Kingdom of Christ last?

We asked this question on our television show Christ in Prophecy of Dr. Noah Hutchings, considered "The Dean" of American Bible prophecy experts. He is the director of a Bible prophecy ministry in Oklahoma City called Southwest Radio Ministries, the author of over 100 books, and at 90 years old continues to serve the Lord in his decades long call to proclaim the Gospel.

Noah Hutchings


The Millennial Kingdom

Nathan Jones: Let's talk about another controversial topic concerning the end times, and that's the Millennial Kingdom. Dr. Hutchings, can you tell a little of what you know about it from the Bible? How long is it going to last? What is its purpose?

Dr. Hutchings: We read in Revelation 20 that after Jesus Christ comes He will reign upon the throne of David for a thousand years. That's a thousand years, also called a millennium. The Millennium is something that Israel looked forward to in the Old Testament, in that the king from David or the lineage of David would come and sit upon the throne of David, and there would be peace on the earth for a thousand years, meaning a millennium. We're given imagery like the wolf and other animals wouldn't eat prey, and it will be a peaceful world.

Nathan Jones: I got that from Isaiah 11:6, "The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the goat. The calf, the young lion and the fatling will be together and a child will lead them." The animals were told will live in peace with each other, and so will mankind with each other. That the nations are at peace then tells me that we're not living in the Millennial Kingdom now, right?

Dr. Hutchings: Yes, there are many reasons why we are not now living in the Kingdom Age.

Nathan Jones: Please share some of those reasons, for seriously, I wouldn't now send my kids out to stick their hands in the viper's nest, or hang out with lions.

Dr. Hutchings: For one, Jesus is not reigning from Jerusalem.

Nathan Jones: Now, some would say He is reigning spiritually. Why do you say He's not doing that right now?

Dr. Hutchings: Jesus is to reign literally upon the throne of David, and not just spiritually. We read in Matthew and Luke His lineage going all the way back to David, and the reason for that is that lineage substantiates Jesus' claim to the throne. Jesus offered His kingdom to Israel at His First Coming, but Israel said they would not have this man reign over them. Instead, they took Jesus and crucified Him. So, He has to come again to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy that a king from the lineage of David will reign on David's throne, making it possible for there to be peace in the world for 1,000 years. And, there will be peace, and it will be a wonderful world.

Dr. Reagan: I'm glad you mentioned the Old Testament prophecies, because many people believe that the only place in the Bible where there is any mention of Jesus reigning is in the book of Revelation. And yet, the Old Testament is full of prophecies about the Messiah reigning over all the world. The only new information given in Revelation 20 is how long the reign is going to be, which is a thousand years.

Dr. Hutchings: Yes. The book of Hosea also has a prophecy about the Messiah being crucified, and His coming again, so the teaching of Christ's Kingdom it throughout the Old Testament and the Prophets. We read in Jeremiah and Ezekiel where their mission was to make Israel acceptable so that this great King would one day reign through that nation.


Inhabitants

Nathan Jones: Does that mean the Millennial Kingdom then is only for the Jew? Who then lives in the Millennial Kingdom?

Dr. Hutchings: We read in various places in the Scriptures that all nations will come to Jerusalem to worship the King. So, the Kingdom will not only be for Israel, but it will be for all nations.


Interpretation

Dr. Reagan: Most churches today, in fact the majority of Protestant churches plus the Catholic Church, teach what's called Amillennialism, which is the belief that we are in the Millennium now and have been in it since the cross. They teach it will continue indefinitely, and that "thousand years" is just a symbolic term.

You know, Noah, that if you take the Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament, for what it says, just take it for what it says, then there's no doubt that it teaches that Jesus is coming back to reign for a thousand years. But, those folks say, "Oh, none of that means what it says. It all has to be spiritualized."

Let's then talk a little bit about what is the best way to interpret Bible prophecy. Should it be spiritualized, or should we take it for its plain sense meaning?

Dr. Hutchings: Of course there's a spiritual element throughout the Bible in everything that is written, but there's also a literal fulfillment that we have to accept as well. The prophecies in Isaiah 53 about Jesus, they literally came to pass. The Jews have been scattered throughout all the world, and that literally came to pass. They would return to that land again, and we can clearly see today that has been literally fulfilled. Therefore, we have to accept that the other prophecies in the Bible also have a literal fulfillment concerning this coming kingdom that Jesus is to return and establish here on the earth at the end of the Tribulation period.

Dr. Reagan: Right. I grew up in a church that taught that the Bible means exactly what it says from beginning to end, unless that is it's talking about the Second Coming of Jesus, and then it never means what it says.

Dr. Hutchings: A lot of churches believe that the Church inherited all the promises made to Israel. The Church they believe is the modern Israel, and therefore there is no Second Coming, because the Church has fulfilled or is fulfilling all of the promises made to Israel.

Nathan Jones: And yet, Israel is back in the land again. That means something. That's prophetically important.

Dr. Hutchings: Israel being a nation again is an important sign that shows we're in the end times.

Dr. Reagan: I had a fellow one time put it to me this way, and I never forgot this. He said, "If Bible prophecy does not mean what it says, then how can you ever know when it is fulfilled?" You can't! If prophecy doesn't mean what it says, then indeed, you'll never know whether or not it has been fulfilled. For example, Revelation 11 says in the end times there are going to be two witnesses of God who are going to be in Jerusalem in the Tribulation proclaiming the Gospel. Now, does that mean what it says? Well Amillennialists say, "Oh, no, that doesn't mean what it says. That refers to something that happened in 70 AD." Well then, just who were those two witnesses? They'll hesitantly reply, "Well, we don't know for sure, but they might have been this or they might have been that."

Dr. Hutchings: The Scripture says that all nations, races and tongues will see after the Antichrist kills the Two Witnesses at the mid-point of the Tribulation their dead bodies in the streets of Jerusalem. Before the 20th Century, people asked, "How could that be possible? You are going to bring several billion people to Israel and show them?" But, today through television, the world witnessing their deaths and resurrection can be most certainly possible.

Dr. Reagan: Absolutely! We are seeing prophecies that can be fulfilled today that we could never have seen fulfilled naturally in the past, all because of modern technology. Noah, you keep on going back to modern technology, and so does Nathan. The marvels of technology today really does help us to understand Bible prophecy as we have never understood it before.


In the fourth part of this interview with Dr. Noah Hutchings on end time events, he'll give three great signs which demonstrate that we are living in the last days.

Friday, July 19, 2013

Noah Hutchings on the Tribulation

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What is the purpose of the Tribulation?

We asked this question on our television show Christ in Prophecy of Dr. Noah Hutchings, considered "The Dean" of American Bible prophecy experts. He is the director of a Bible prophecy ministry in Oklahoma City called Southwest Radio Ministries, the author of over 100 books, and at 90 years old continues to serve the Lord in his decades long call to proclaim the Gospel.

Noah Hutchings


The Terrible Period

Dr. Reagan: What in the world is the Tribulation? How long do you think it will last? What is its purpose? Dr. Hutchings, please talk about the Tribulation for a few minutes.

Dr. Hutchings: The Tribulation comes some time after the Church is taken up to Heaven in the Rapture. According to the Scriptures in Revelation 11:2-3; 12:14 and 13:5, we are given 42 months and then another 42 months. From that Scripture context along with Daniel 9:27, we know that the Tribulation period will be 7 years long.

Jesus said those years would be a time such as the world has never seen, or never would see again. We just can't begin to imagine what it's going to be like. That will be the time when the Antichrist is ruling all the nations of the world, and the people are commanded to worship the Antichrist. We read about those who will not have food, and those who will be killed. It's going to be the most awful period, as Jesus said it would be.

The Bible gives no reason for the Church to have to go through this period, and so we don't believe it will.

There will be a one-world government, with all the nations being under the authority of just one person — the Antichrist and his kingdom. Everyone will be commanded to worship this person on the threat of death. Everyone will have to take his mark, which is the Antichrist's name and number, or they can't buy or sell. Already we see there is a big controversy now about mandatory computer chipping. Down in Texas one schoolgirl refused to wear a computer chip on her person. The kids are made to wear it at a particular school, and she said to the effect, "Well, I don't believe I should take that because the Bible says I shouldn't take it." Whether chips are involved, we don't know, but required marking we're already beginning to see.

So, the Tribulation is going to be a terrible period. We read about the hunger, the wars, all the people who will die. We just can't begin to imagine the horrors which lie in store soon for the whole world.


Purpose for the Jews

Dr. Reagan: What's the purpose of the Tribulation then?

Dr. Hutchings: One, Israel will be brought to an understanding that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.

Dr. Reagan: They are going to be brought to the end of themselves and finally turn to God.

Dr. Hutchings: We read, "Behold He comes with the clouds and every eye shall see Him, and also they which pierced Him. And they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son." That is not happening widespread among the Jews today.


Purpose for the Gentiles

Dr. Reagan: What is the purpose for the Gentile nations during the Tribulation? What purpose does God have for them?

Dr. Hutchings: The Gentile nations of course right now are all separate and worshipping different gods. It's not the world that God intended for it to be. It's a world where Satan runs rampant. The world will be prepared through the Tribulation period for the coming of Jesus Christ. The nations won't be nations anymore as such, being dissolved into the Antichrist's one-world empire. But, it won't last long, for the Lord Jesus Christ will come back to destroy that human kingdom and so will reign for a thousand years, according to Revelation 20.


God of Love, God of Justice

Nathan Jones: With the Tribulation, we read about the 21 judgments from God. We read about most of the earth environmentally being decimated. Most of the human population will also be decimated in just that seven year time span. If God then is a God of love and mercy, why would He do such a horrible thing?

Dr. Hutchings: God is not only a God of love, He is also a God of justice. It's not a matter of God doing this, but Man bringing judgment upon himself. God has been storing up His judgment very patiently, giving people every chance possible to repent. But, when this period is over, the world will be ready for the coming of Christ. The world right now would not want Jesus Christ to come.

Dr. Reagan: One of the things that has always really touched my heart in my study of the Tribulation is that the Bible clearly teaches that even when God pours out His wrath, His ultimate purpose is not to punish. His ultimate purpose is to bring people to repentance so that they might be saved. A lot of people are going to be saved during the Tribulation period because they are going to be brought to the end of themselves and so repent and turn to God.

Dr. Hutchings: That is certainly true. We read in Revelation 7 about the 144,000 Jews who at the onset will evidently be believe and be saved. They will go out into all the world as witnesses for Jesus Christ. You just don't see that happening today, but it will happen during the Tribulation period.

Dr. Reagan: That's right. It's just amazing to think that even when God pours out His wrath that His fundamental purpose is to bring people to repentance.

Nathan Jones: It's a shame that it takes that much horror to bring people to finally accept God, though.

Dr. Reagan: Well, it is, but that's just the nature of Man. Sometimes God has to hit us over the head with a 2x4 to get our attention.

Dr. Hutchings: As you can look over the world today, especially here in the United States, 24 hours a day there's the Gospel being taught on the radio and on television. The churches are still open, even though according to the latest statistics church membership and attendance has been declining, not only in this country, but in other countries as well. Christians such as Dr. Franklin Graham recently brought out the fact that Christians are now coming under increased attacks, especially those who are believers from other nations all over the world.

Dr. Reagan: Every time I think of the Tribulation I think of this verse in Isaiah 26:9, "When the earth experiences the judgments of God, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness."


In the third part of this interview with Dr. Noah Hutchings on end time events, he'll explain what the Millennial Kingdom is all about.

Thursday, July 18, 2013

Noah Hutchings on the Rapture

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What is the most controversial aspect about the Rapture?

We asked this question on our television show Christ in Prophecy of Dr. Noah Hutchings, considered "The Dean" of American Bible prophecy experts. He is the director of a Bible prophecy ministry in Oklahoma City called Southwest Radio Ministries, the author of over 100 books, and at 90 years old continues to serve the Lord in his decades long call to proclaim the Gospel.

Noah Hutchings


Controversial Aspect

Nathan Jones: Since we are talking about end time events, let's talk about one of the most controversial end time events — the Rapture of the Church. Could you tell us a little about the meaning of the Rapture and why it is controversial?

Dr. Hutchings: The Rapture as referred to by you and me of course marks the end of the Church Age dispensation. The Rapture is when the dead in Christ shall rise along with we who are left alive, and will go up to meet the Lord. Jesus finally comes for His Church.

The most controversy comes from the several views concerning the timing of the Rapture, and I'm sure some of them are more controversial than others. You can get into a discussion with those who believe in a Post-Trib Rapture, in that the Rapture happens at the end of the coming 7-year Tribulation, and you can get into some rather interesting dialogue with them. Others would say the Rapture is going to happen before the Tribulation. Some will say it will happen in the middle of the Tribulation. Others also say that at the end of the Tribulation the Rapture and the Second Coming will just be one and the same.

I hold to what's called the Pre-Tribulational or for short Pre-Trib Rapture view. I hold to the Pre-Trib position that teaches that when the Church Age has come to an end the Rapture will occur, the Church will be translated to Heaven.

Paul wrote to the Christians in Thessalonica who were under great persecution, and he told them their final hope would be the Rapture of the Church. The dead in Christ will rise first, and those believers left alive will also rise to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord forever. If the Church was going through the Tribulation as some believe, which would be the Post-Trib position, then why would Paul try to give them comfort by referring to the coming of Christ, because they would still have to go through the Tribulation. I know there's a lot of different opinions, but I believe that the Church Age will end, the Christian era will end, and all before the Tribulation actually begins.

Dr. Reagan: As you well know, the Bible does not say specifically when the Rapture will occur. That's why there is so much difference of opinion. People can honestly disagree about the timing. But, I agree with you. I think that the best inference of the Bible is that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation begins.


Powerful Argument #1

Dr. Reagan: What would you say from your viewpoint is the most powerful argument in behalf of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

Dr. Hutchings: Look at the book of Revelation, for example. The first three chapters concern the Church. I think it is a prophetic history of the Church Age. Then you go into Revelation 4, which is the beginning of the Tribulation period. You go through chapter 19 when the Tribulation period finally ends. Between chapters 4 and chapters 19 the Church is not mentioned one time. Remarkably, the Christian is not mentioned even one time.

Dr. Reagan: There believers during the Tribulation are referenced to as Saints.

Dr. Hutchings: Yes, they are references to as Saints, but of course, we're all saints. We are all set apart in Christ when we have put our faith and trust in Him. There will be people saved during the Tribulation, but most will be killed for refusing to take the Mark of the Beast and worship his image. That is not a commandment for today.

So, the Church is not mentioned in the Tribulation setting, but we see the Church mentioned in Revelation again after the Tribulation.

During the Tribulation, we read in Revelation about the 144,000 Jews who will be saved and set apart. There will be saints in the Tribulation, meaning there will be some saved, but that is simply all that it means. You're a saint because you have been sanctified and set apart, but these Tribulation Saints are not part of the Church.


Powerful Argument #2

Dr. Reagan: I've always felt like that one of the major arguments in behalf of a Pre-Tribulational Rapture is imminence. The Bible says that Jesus can come at any moment. Any moment! But, if you don't believe in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture, Jesus cannot come at any moment because there are a whole lot of things that have to happen first, such as there has to be a temple built in Israel. There has to be the Antichrist. There has to be the entire seven years of Tribulation. The only way that Jesus can come at any moment is for you to believe in a Rapture before the Tribulation.

Dr. Hutchings: That is absolutely true. If you study the Pauline Epistles and the messages to the churches, I can't find anywhere in there where Christians are admonished that they have to be careful about not worshipping the Antichrist by taking the Mark of the Beast, or even about a Tribulation period.

Dr. Reagan: We never are we told to look for the Antichrist. We are told to look for Jesus Christ.

Nathan Jones: A Pre-Trib Rapture just makes sense. When we are talking about the Bride of Christ — the Church — we know without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus loves His Bride. Jesus is to "marry" the Bride spiritually. I heard fellow Bible prophecy teacher Don McGee say this recently, and I thought this was great what he says. Jesus has got most of the Bride with Him right now in Heaven, but part of the Bride, that's us, are still on earth. You don't beat up part of your wife for seven years under your very own judgments and expect afterwards she's going to say, "Yeah, I'm going to marry you." It just doesn't happen. God wants all of His Bride to be with Him up in Heaven and protected from His wrath.

Dr. Reagan: That raises a good point, because there exists with some people this odd idea that the Church has to go through the Tribulation to be "purified."

Nathan Jones: Jesus' blood already purifies us from our sins.

Dr. Reagan: True, and since we're already purified by the blood of Christ, the Church certainly doesn't need the Tribulation.

Dr. Hutchings: There is no reason for the Church to go through the Tribulation. Why should we go through the Tribulation?

Nathan Jones: I hear people all the time say that the Church needs to be there because otherwise the people during that time won't hear the Gospel. But, there's many ways that people will hear the Gospel during the Tribulation, right?

Dr. Reagan: There's going to be Bibles left lying around all over the place. Plus, we've got the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 who in Jerusalem will be proclaiming the Gospel.

Nathan Jones: Then there's the Gospel Angel of Revelation 14:6 who actually goes to everybody alive in the Tribulation and shares the Gospel so that no person by the end of the Tribulation is without excuse.

Dr. Hutchings: Israel as a nation we do know will go through the Tribulation. I've been to Israel many, many times. In Israel today, less than one-third of 1% believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. They still are rejecting Him. The children are asked in Israeli schools, "Would the Messiah have destroyed the Temple? Would the Messiah have collaborated with the Romans to destroy Jerusalem?" They reply, "Of course not. So, Jesus is not the Messiah." Israelis are still looking for the Messiah to come.

Dr. Reagan: You know as well as I do, and as many times as you have been to Israel, there are thousands of guides there who have their heads full of Scripture. They have to in order to be qualified as guides. One day something is going to happen that is going to move that knowledge from their head to their hearts, and that is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the Tribulation.


In the second part of this interview with Dr. Noah Hutchings on end time events, he'll explain what the Tribulation is all about.