Comments on The Christ in Prophecy Journal: 2012: Counter Arguments

Hi, It is quite obvious that earthquakes are unle...

2010-03-08T14:07:32.546-06:00

Hi,

It is quite obvious that earthquakes are unleashing worldwide. There is a free book on forthcoming events such as earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes and eventually Earth’s pole shift, all of them triggered by the approach of Nibiru or planet Hercolubus. That book is an important alert and a guide to prepare ourselves for the coming times.

Just go to www.hercolubus.tv and click on the ‘free copy’ link. There are translations to several languages.

EI, RG, this thread was getting so long & so last-...

2010-01-18T15:32:03.573-06:00

EI, RG, this thread was getting so long & so last-year so I popped in over here...
http://www.lamblion.us/2010/01/mark-hitchcock-on-source-of-2012.html

DrNofog, I’m with you on Pentecost’s book. That’s ...

2010-01-17T14:27:55.746-06:00

DrNofog, I’m with you on Pentecost’s book. That’s one I stumbled across when I first began studying eschatology, not that long ago. I’m a newbie in these matters. That book is an oldie but a classic that I refer to often. I’d love for JDP to do a follow up to include the pre-wrath view and some of the new stuff people are talking about.

EI, if you have any questions, you can e-mail Pastor George Zeller of Middletown. He’s very approachable and knowledgeable.

RG

DrNofog and RG God bless your hearts for the very...

2010-01-17T13:19:10.840-06:00

DrNofog and RG
God bless your hearts for the very interesting replies. It took me a while to work out what ‘MLK and mil’. is, so I Googled, and the dear old thing came up with ‘Martin Luther King’ and ‘Military’ (ours are the ‘Armed Forces’) although PTR – Pentecostal ? ? has stumped me! Well done your dad DrNofog.

Middletown is a great link, I have had a quick browse and I look forward to searching out my answer when my head clears a little more. I totally agree that “the church fathers (post-apostles) didn’t have a sophisticated eschatology”. I think that is why I thought PD was the steady and progressive revelation of Dispensations and prophecy on the end times. How wrong was I! Thanks again, I am really grateful for the direction.
E.I.

EI, Middletown Bible Church has some good resou...

2010-01-15T21:09:30.152-06:00

EI, Middletown Bible Church has some good resources that discuss the differences between Israel and the church and the word ekklesia. Posties need to see little difference between the church and Israel to support their rapture position based on a single First Resurrection of OT and NT saints. This is one reason why Progressive Dispensationalism is becoming so popular. It’s a fascinating and complex subject –at least for my addled mind. But Paul’s writings make it pretty plain to me that the church is a new entity that is distinct from Israel. IMO, the church fathers (post-apostles) didn’t have a sophisticated eschatology. Most modern rapture positions will contain elements that will not be found within their literature.

RG

EI, Schofield is an excellent choice. I was raised...

2010-01-15T16:22:24.587-06:00

EI, Schofield is an excellent choice. I was raised in a "good" Catholic home, believed in God, Jesus crucified & resurrected for us, & that I wasn't ready to get too close to either one of them until much later in life. While I was in the mil. my dad got up & took his family out of the RCC when a priest blasphemed in his "sermon" shortly after MLK got offed, saying that if MLK had lived 2000yrs ago we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. Wow! Dad found a small, Bible believing church close by and when I came home, I found out what a Bible was for & got saved shortly thereafter. I knew nothing about the Bible, theology & prophecy [being a good Catholic & all], being completely virginal to it all, so when our Baptist pastor started talking all this nonsense about a rapture & a 1000yr kingdom back on earth [of all places], I began to question where he was getting all this stuff. After all, we were supposed to go thru purgatory & then remain in Heaven forever after, not return to any old earth... So the recommended books at the time ['71] was a Schofield Bible & 'Things To Come' by J. Dwight Pentecost [a very fat book]. Now, being the son of a world-class physicist, listed in WW of the World [boy, where did I take a left turn?], I figgered I had enough inherited grey matter to find some holes in Pentecost's stuff... Every argument that I could conger up had already been handled in such minute detail and I was thoroughly PTR when I finished it. Now, in almost 40yrs, I have still yet to see any argument that can poke a hole in the PTR position.

EI, see my lengthy reply to Mitchell farther up th...

2010-01-15T14:39:17.614-06:00

EI, see my lengthy reply to Mitchell farther up this post. He makes the same mistake with the LXX quote in Hebrews, assuming that there can only be one meaning for "church" instead of seeing Israel's uniqueness being emphasized by the LXX translators who knew nothing about a future "assembly" [the out-called]...

Hi RG I've just replaced my tatty old NKJ Bible wi...

2010-01-15T06:48:55.129-06:00

Hi RG
I've just replaced my tatty old NKJ Bible with my first ‘Schofields Study Bible’. It's 'delicious'! I learned from Posties how bad it was, so I thought – ‘hm, must be good then’! :-D I was right!

Getting old does have advantages; it allow for mistakes when corrected. Once words are in print and distributed, it is impossible to withdraw them. It's those with an agenda who refuse their 'opponents' an error and indicates immaturity and a root of bitterness, no matter their physical age. It is acutely dishonest to teach others, who lack the ability to check for themselves, things like Schofields slip-up that had been retracted, AND charge them DELIBERATELY for misleading them (operation Pretrib). I have repeatedly noticed with Posties that what is ‘sauce for the Goose’, is denied to the Gander!

--------

Subject change based on the original written language used by the ‘Church Fathers’; was it in Latin? I ask because Posties see the translated words ‘the church’ in their writings, and assume that THE Church is present in the Tribulation. I consider this is because, like the Greek ‘ecclesia’, which loosely means a ‘gathering’ of people (could be Christians, could be Jews, even gentiles) only the context makes it clear WHO they are. (Mitchell made this mistake in one of his posts).
Or is it ‘church’, because of a failure by the ‘fathers’ to recognise a distinction between the ‘saints or elect’ in the Trib; being a different company from THE Church that had been raptured by then?

Phew! Is that clear? Any ideas?
Thanks. E.I.

By the way, E.I., chapter six of Ryrie's book, "Sa...

2010-01-14T21:55:13.028-06:00

By the way, E.I., chapter six of Ryrie's book, "Salvation in Dispensationalism", is also quite interesting and should be read by critics. Apparently Scofield's first study Bible had unfortunate wording in one note that seemed to infer there were two ways to salvation. That he did not believe this is shown by his numerous notes elsewhere. A later edition corrected it but non-dispies seized on that and went after dispensationalism. The irony of it all is that Ryrie shows examples where reformed theologians have also made similar mis-statements that could be misconstrued as teaching more than one method of salvation.

RG

I was messin' with ya, DrNofog. I get lazy and som...

2010-01-14T21:41:56.783-06:00

I was messin' with ya, DrNofog. I get lazy and sometimes don't sign at the end. I need the occasional slap in the back of the head.

RG

Musta dozed off... Didn't know this thread was sti...

2010-01-14T17:34:30.233-06:00

Musta dozed off... Didn't know this thread was still runnin' with 'The Usual Suspects' head-buttin' each other. LOL!

Great post, Nathan. [ #11]
http://www.lamblion.us/2008/10/why-i-believe-in-pre-tribulation_20.html
If I'da knowed you had all that already there I'da just ripped it off you instead of all that typing I did... not very fast at it ya know.

Anon, depends on which anon posts whatever what might needs correctin'...

Hi RG Whoopee! You are an inspiration! Just realis...

2010-01-12T16:14:11.917-06:00

Hi RG
Whoopee! You are an inspiration! Just realised I bought said book in the summer and forgot about it. Chapter 10 you said - - that's page 213. I'll be back.

page 215 " - nearly every antidisp. writer attempts to make something of the relative recency of systemised disp. Those who are of the Reformed tradition always attempt to imply that Disp. is a mere infant compared to the ancient and wise man of C.T.---

Systemised C.T. is recent. IT WAS NOT THE EXPRESSED DOCTRINE OF THE EARLY CHURCH. Never taught by Church leaders in the Middle Ages. It was not even mentioned by the primary leaders of the reformation. Indeed, C.T. as a system is only a little older than Disp. That does not mean it is not Biblical, but it does dispel the notion that C.T. has been throughout all church history the ancient guardian of the truth that is only recently being sniped at by Disp.
C.T. does not appear in the writings of Zwingli, Calvin or Melanchthon --------- they had every opportunity to incorperate the covenant idea, but they did not. There were no refs.to C.T. in ANY of the great confessions of faith until the Westminster Con. in 1647, and even then C.T. was not as fully developed as it was later by Reformed theologians ---."

Thanks RG; I know what I am reading at bedtime, great stuff.
E.I.

Haven't got time to elaborate but those who point ...

2010-01-12T14:36:43.586-06:00

Haven't got time to elaborate but those who point to the newness of dospensationalism (hence pre-trib) would be advised to read Ryrie's chapter ten p 213 that covers the earliest concepts of CT.

RG

RG Do you know how old Covenant Theology Is? I...

2010-01-12T10:35:34.933-06:00

RG Do you know how old Covenant Theology Is?

I thought it may be from Augistine's time and he got it from - Origen maybe??? Later it was picked up by Calvin? If so, unlike oikenomia, it wasn't know by the Bible writers???
Thanks
E.I.

And, as Ryrie points out in "Dispensationalism", e...

2010-01-11T22:55:18.515-06:00

And, as Ryrie points out in "Dispensationalism", elements of dispensationalism were recognized by others long before Darby.

Essentially, though, it ultimately boils down to what the WORD says rather than the newness of a concept.

RG

Bob Mitchell said "Dispensationalism is less than ...

2010-01-11T07:16:54.956-06:00

Bob Mitchell said "Dispensationalism is less than two hundred years old yet it has infiltrated the church like a cancer".

Hi againBob
Been here before haven’t we! :)

“Dispensationalism” is merely a term given to something that already exists in God’s Word. The Greek word is oikonomia means ‘the management of a household or of household affairs’. Specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property. The office of a manager or overseer, stewardship, administration or dispensation. It is where our word ‘economy’ comes from.

The way that God administered His household during the creation of the world and dealt with Adam and Eve, was very different when they ‘fell’. With the fall, God’s household affairs had to change to suit the circumstances brought about by the fall. Things chaged again after the flood and so on until this present age of grace.

Similarly, some think that ‘The Council of Nicea’ actually chose which books could go into the Bible. Yet this was not the case, they only CONFIRMED what was already known and accepted by the Church and formalised them.

Likewise oikonomia or dispensations clearly existed in the Scriptures, Scholars merely CONFIRMED its existence by using one translation of oikonomia as Dispensationalism.

If I have this wrong, I hope the other bloggers will correct me.

Bob Mitchell said “It seems strange and insulting ...

2010-01-11T06:12:26.271-06:00

Bob Mitchell said “It seems strange and insulting to me to believe Abraham, Isaac, David and the prophets all those who looked forward to Messiah, are in heaven with Peter, Paul, the apostles and believers of the ages. But come the rapture the "church" takes off to collect their new resurrected bodies leaving father Abraham and the prophets, even David back in heaven. They must wait, according to dispensationalism, until the "Second Coming".

This is a tad emotive Bob; is heaven such a terrible place to wait for another few years (7) until their appointed time in the plan and purposes of God? Remember Jesus said those in the kingdom ( IN Christ),are in a ‘better position’ than the greatest O.T. prophet John the Baptist. Matt.11:11” Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he”.

Can you not see a distinction here? I am sure the O.T. saints will be standing at heavens gates cheering Jesus on as He leaves to go and catch up His Bride into the clouds. This is no more a two tier system than any family is, each member has their place and each member valued for who they are.
E.I.

Hiya Bob Mitchell Good to see you on 'my' turf for...

2010-01-11T05:46:39.890-06:00

Hiya Bob Mitchell
Good to see you on 'my' turf for a change. I do hope you continue posting.
Cheers
Expected Imminently

Bob, it seems to me that you're basing this conclu...

2010-01-10T18:39:42.398-06:00

Bob, it seems to me that you're basing this conclusion on emotion.

As for dispensationalism...Gundry considered himself one.

RG

Hi I am Bob Mitchell and stumbles on this site tod...

2010-01-10T16:55:10.808-06:00

Hi I am Bob Mitchell and stumbles on this site today athough I know of it.

For the record I do believe the church and OT saints are the one body of Messiah. I do not believe in replacement theology.

Covenant theology as far as I can make out from the guys I have listened to, does include the believers in Israel from the Old Testament and the New.

It seems strange and insulting to me to believe Abraham, Isaac, David and the prophets all those who looked forward to Messiah, are in heaven with Peter, Paul, the apostles and believers of the ages. But come the rapture the "church" takes off to collect their new resurrected bodies leaving father Abraham and the prophets, even David back in heaven. They must wait, according to dispensationalism, until the "Second Coming".

But we must never say this creates a two tier system in heaven, those who looked for Messiah and "rejoiced to see his day" and those who came after Messiah arrived..........must we.

We are one in the same faith as Abraham, father of the faithful, and David and the prophets.

Dispensationalism is less than two hundred years old yet it has infiltrated the church like a cancer.

P.S. In addition (I’m on a roll) I have no way to ...

2010-01-10T12:51:36.471-06:00

P.S.
In addition (I’m on a roll) I have no way to prove this theory, but, I consider it very likely that ANY literature that did not sit well with Rome’s stance on ‘Pergatory’, such as the Pretrib Rapture, stood little chance of being allowed to circulate for long. I am suggesting there have been clear Pretrib letters that Rome has either destroyed or archived away from unsuitable eyes.
As you know Pseudo Ephraim was an exception and I am certain there are more. The Posties have said that he was not the real Ephraim, to disqualify the writing. However I don’t think it matters, because the point of the exercise was to prove Pretrib was known very early and not as they pretend with MM and Derby. Whether the man WAS Ephraim or Pseudo does not change the fact that Pre was talked about very early.
E.I.

Nathan Jones said... Quite a number of Early Chur...

2010-01-10T12:37:00.568-06:00

Nathan Jones said...
Quite a number of Early Church Fathers took the Pre-Tribulation view (see #11).

I don’t disagree at all with this Nathan. In my personal rumble with Posties they have been pinpointing the parts that suggest Post by insisting with fury that the ‘church fathers’ were not Pre. What I see was how uncertain the ‘church fathers’ were;in the same paragraph, both views can be seen. Finally I decided to stick with the original Church Fathers, the Apostles. They were definitely expecting Jesus to return with no ambiguity e.g. the use of present tense “then WE which are alive and remain” etc. (although they have even tried to twist this) I have found it is vital to stick to the grammar and literal interp. as the only way to keep my sanity with the nonsense Posties keep churning out by using the church fathers as their ‘proof’ that Post is older than Pre.- NOT!
E.I.

Who says I need correctin', Nofog? anomalous

2010-01-05T20:28:43.007-06:00

Who says I need correctin', Nofog?

anomalous

Quite a number of Early Church Fathers took the Pr...

2010-01-05T10:05:44.718-06:00

Quite a number of Early Church Fathers took the Pre-Tribulation view (see #11).

Anonymous said... In the words of my word ver...

2010-01-05T02:44:57.167-06:00

Anonymous said...

In the words of my word verification - its fakero!
E.I.
Saturday, January 2, 2010 4:32:00 AM CST

Anonymous said...

E.I., I like the way you think!
Monday, January 4, 2010 7:11:00 PM CST

AnonymousDrNofog says that it's not that hard to register a 'Tag' name or at least give up sumpin' at the end of yer post like "E.I." does, so we know which "Anon" we might be addressn'-4-correctn'!!